ds_0027_malzwab_cap_02.mp4

ds_0027_malzwab_cap_02.mp4

Interview

Malzkuhn, Eric

Malzkuhn, Eric

American Sign Language literature

Deaf, Writings of the, American

American Sign Language

Deaf Poetry

American poetry 20th century

ASL poetry

This interview with Eric "Malz" Malzkuhn covered many topics: Malz's early life, schooling at the Michigan School for the Deaf, his Gallaudet years, the Arsenic and Old Lace Broadway sign language performance, influential sign masters, the National Theatre of the Deaf, mentoring talented Deaf performers (Phyllis Frelich, Linda Bove, Rita Corey, Ed Waterstreet, Gil Eastman, Jonathan Roman, Ella Lentz, Lou Fant, and Bernard Bragg) teaching sign and fingerspelling artistry techniques, Deaf clubs, Bernard Bragg and his influence, the history of sign poetry and his sign rendition of the poem Jabberwocky which was popular and revolutionized the sign poetry field. Malz was known for creating signs when needed to clearly convey concepts and was a sign master breaking new ground in performing signed poetry and stories.

Writers and Books

Rochester Institute of Technology - RIT Libraries - RIT Archive Collections

Cook, Peter S.

Lerner, Kenny

Moore, Matthew S., 1958-

Writers & Books (Firm) institution

1989

2018

moving image

mp4

VHS

120 minutes

American Sign Language

English

RITDSA.0027

Sculptures in the Air: An Accessible Online Video Repository of the American Sign Language (ASL) Poetry and Literature Collections

Miriam and Kenneth Lerner ASL Poetry Collection

2018-2019 CLIR Grant-ASL Poetry and Literature

https://albert.rit.…

https://archivesspa…

New York - Rochester

RIT Libraries makes materials from its collections available for educational and research purposes pursuant to U.S. Copyright Law. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. It is your responsibility to obtain permission from the copyright holder to publish or reproduce images in print or electronic form.

CC BY-NC-ND: Attribution NonCommercial NoDerivatives 4.0 International

WOMAN: "PEOPLE THINK
THAT I CREATED THAT

"WHEN I WAS IN NEW YORK,
BUT IT REALLY WAS BEFORE THAT

"WHEN I CAME UP WITH
THE IDEA OF 'JABBERWOCKY.'

"NOBODY EVER THOUGHT OF
DOING THIS BEFORE.

IT WAS WHEN I WAS
IN MY SOPHOMORE YEAR."

MATTHEW SAYS, "I THOUGHT
THERE WAS AN NTD ACTOR

NAMED JOE VELEZ WHO DID IT."

MALZ SAYS, "NO, I TAUGHT HIM.

"SEE, THIS IS HOW IT WENT."

"HE HAD BETTER MOVEMENT
THAN I DID, ACTUALLY."

"I NEVER PERFORMED 'JABBERWOCKY'
THE SAME WAY TWICE IN MY LIFE.

"MY ANIMALS ALWAYS CHANGED
EACH TIME I PERFORMED IT.

"SOMETIMES, I DID A GREAT JOB

"AND SOMETIMES,
I WAS ABSOLUTELY LOUSY,

"SO, FOR THE NTD RENDITION,
I DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE A RISK,

"AND I DEVELOPED
THE PERFECT MOVEMENTS

"TO FIT HIS FACE AND BODY,

"AND THEN HE TOOK IT ON THE ROAD
AND TOURED WITH IT

"AND MADE IT FAMOUS.

"I CREATED THAT WHEN
I WAS 17 YEARS OLD,

"BACK IN 1939.

"YUP, WAY BACK IN THE DAY.

"PEOPLE WEREN'T REALLY
READY FOR IT AT THE TIME.

"A THIRD OF THE FOLKS
THOUGHT I WAS CRAZY,

"A THIRD OF THEM THOUGHT
I WAS A GENIUS,

AND THE OTHER THIRD KIND OF
WASN'T SURE WHICH I WAS."

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
OH, NO, NO, NO. BUT..."

"LET'S SEE.
I THINK I DID IT FOR MSSD

"ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO,

"BUT I DIDN'T DO
A VERY GOOD JOB,

TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH."

"THERE WERE 8 DIFFERENT CAMERAS,
8 DIFFERENT TAKES.

"LET'S SEE, WAS IT
THE EIGHTH OR THE NINTH?

"EVERYTHING WAS WRONG,
AND THEN FINALLY,

"THEY GOT ALL
THE TECHNOLOGY RIGHT

"BUT THEN I MADE MISTAKES.

"I THINK WE GOT IT RIGHT
ON THE 12th TAKE OR SOMETHING,

"BUT I WAS
JUST SO TIRED BY THEN, SO,

WASN'T AS GOOD
AS I WOULD HAVE LIKED IT."

PETER SAYS, "THEY COULD'VE
TAKEN DIFFERENT ANGLES

AND CUT TOGETHER
DIFFERENT THINGS."

MALZ SAYS, "NO, IT WAS
THE TECHNOLOGY AT THE TIME."

"IT WAS JUST DIFFERENT.
AND THEN BY THE TIME

"EVERYTHING ELSE WAS OK
WITH THE TECHNOLOGY,

"THEN I SCREWED UP MY LINES

"AND THEN FINALLY,
I GOT IT RIGHT,

"BUT I WAS EXHAUSTED BY THEN.

IT WAS A LITTLE FLAT, I THINK."

PETER SAYS,
"WELL, YOU WERE EXHAUSTED."

PETER SAYS, "WELL,
WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT

"WHEN YOU FIRST
GOT INTO GALLAUDET.

HOW OLD WERE YOU?"
MALZ SAYS, "16."

PETER SAYS, "YOU WERE 16. OK.

"SO, YOU GET
INTO GALLAUDET WHEN YOU'RE 16,

"AND YOU GET ONTO THE CAMPUS,
AND, 'DID YOU HEAR,

"'OH, THERE'S THIS GROUP WHO'S
PERFORMING POETRY?'

"OR HOW EXACTLY
DID THAT HAPPEN?

HOW'D THAT ALL GET GOING?"

MALZ SAYS, "WELL,
THERE HAD ALWAYS BEEN

"POETRY COMPETITIONS,

SIGNING POETRY COMPETITIONS."

"AND WE DIDN'T START THAT.

"THERE WAS A LITERARY SOCIETY

"THAT HAD BEEN ON CAMPUS
FOR A LONG TIME.

"AND THEY MET MONTHLY.

"SO, THEY INCLUDED STORYTELLING

"AND A LOT OF DIFFERENT
THINGS LIKE THAT.

POETRY, TOO."

PETER SAYS, "WAS THIS
WRITTEN POETRY

THAT THEN YOU WOULD SIGN?"

MALZ SAYS, "NO,
YOU WOULDN'T WRITE IT.

"YOU WOULD READ IT AND ADAPT IT

AND THEN YOU WOULD SIGN IT."

PETER SAID, "SO,
PEOPLE WOULD LOOK AT IT

"AND THEN SAY, 'WOW,
THE SIGNING RENDITION WAS GOOD

OR THE WRITTEN RENDITION
WAS GOOD'?"

MALZ SAID, "ALWAYS, THE SIGNING
TOOK PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE.

"THAT WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT
PART OF IT.

"AND EVERYBODY
PRETTY MUCH AGREED WITH

"WHO WERE THE GOOD SIGNERS.

"AND YOU WOULDN'T EVEN READ
A WRITTEN RENDITION OF IT.

"YOU WOULD JUST LOOK AT
THE SIGNING UP ON STAGE.

"BUT IT WAS VERY--WELL,
THE WORD I WOULD USE

"TO DESCRIBE THE SIGNING STYLE
AT THE TIME WAS STAID.

"VERY FORMAL AND STAID.

"CONTROLLED PRODUCTION
OF SIGNS.

"YOU WERE SHOWING WATER FLOWING.

"IT WOULD BE VERY, VERY
CALMLY PRODUCED LIKE THAT

"TILL I SHOWED UP
WITH 'JABBERWOCKY'

"AND I STARTED RUNNING
ALL OVER THE STAGE,

"AND--HEH HEH--KIND OF SHOOK UP

"THE SIGNING WORLD
A LITTLE BIT AT THE TIME.

"IT WAS VERY DIFFERENT
THAN WHAT PEOPLE WERE DOING.

"AND NOW YOU SEE THINGS
LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME,

BUT BEFORE MY TIME,
YOU DIDN'T."

PETER SAID, "WHAT DID
IT LOOK LIKE BEFORE?"

"AS I SAID," MALZ SAID,
"YOU WOULD STAND

RIGHT IN ONE PLACE."

PETER SAID, "WAS IT
ENGLISH SIGNING?"

MALZ SAID, "OH, NO, NO.
IT WAS ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS

"PRODUCTION OF SIGNING
THAT PEOPLE DID,

"BUT I DIDN'T FEEL
THEY MOVED ENOUGH

"AND I DIDN'T
FEEL THERE WAS ENOUGH

"EXPRESSION ON PEOPLE'S FACES.

THERE WAS A LOT
LESS EXPRESSION."

PETER SAYS, "CAN YOU
SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE

OF WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?"

MALZ SAYS, "SOMETHING LIKE
A BIG MAN,

LARGE-SHOULDERED..."

"IS VERY ANGRY.

"NOTICE THERE'S NO CHANGE
OF EXPRESSION WHATSOEVER,

"AND I'D SAY, 'A BIG, TALL MAN
WAS REALLY ANGRY.'

"I MEAN, YOU CAN SEE
THAT IT BUMPS IT UP A LOT,

"BUT PEOPLE DIDN'T DO THAT.

"THEY WOULD SIGN IT
VERY BEAUTIFULLY.

"I MEAN, GORGEOUS,
GORGEOUS SIGNS. SERIOUSLY.

"BEAUTIFUL BOATS ON AN OCEAN,
FLOWING.

YOU KNOW, GORGEOUS."

KENNY SAYS, "EXCUSE ME. UM,
IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND, PETER,

"MAYBE IF WE HAVE A COMMENT
ON THIS SIDE OF THE ROOM,

"MAYBE YOU COULD
COPY IT, AND THEN

"WHOEVER IS ON THE CAMERA

"WOULD BE ABLE TO
CAPTURE IT BETTER.

THAT OK?"

AND MATTHEW SAYS...

"SO, AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME
IN GALLAUDET,

"WHO WOULD DECIDE WHAT
BEAUTIFUL SIGNING WAS?

WHO WAS THE AUTHORITY
AT THE TIME?"

MALZ SAYS, "WELL, THE STUDENTS.

"BUT, REMEMBER, THERE WASN'T
ANYTHING CALLED

ASL AT THE TIME."

"ASL's A PRETTY NEW TERM,
COMPARATIVELY SPEAKING.

"THAT KIND OF CAME ON THE SCENE

"AROUND THE FIFTIES OR SIXTIES,
AROUND THERE.

"WE DIDN'T USE THE WORD
OR TERM ASL.'

"LOU FANT ACTUALLY COINED
THE TERM "AMESLAN,"

"AND WE USED THAT FOR A WHILE.

"AND THAT FELL
OUT OF USAGE ALSO,

"BUT THEN ASL FINALLY CAME UP,

"BUT BEFORE THAT, EVEN
EITHER OF THOSE TERMS,

WE JUST CALLED IT SIGN,
JUST CALLED IT THE SIGN."

PETER SAYS, "OK, WOULD
GROUPS OF PEOPLE GET TOGETHER

"AND COME UP WITH
AN IDEA AND THEN

"SOMEBODY WOULD SAY, 'OH,
YOU'RE SIGNING THAT TOO ENGLISH.

"'COULD YOU MAYBE SIGN IT MORE
THE WAY WE DO AT HOME

OR IN THE DORM, OR WOULD YOU
SIGN IT A DIFFERENT WAY'?"

MALZ SAID, "NO.
ALL OF US.

"WELL, ALMOST ALL OF US,
I WOULD SAY,

"DIDN'T REALLY TALK ABOUT IT,
BUT IN CONVERSATION

"OR HOW WE SIGNED ANYTHING,
IT WAS WHAT I CALL PSC.

"NOBODY DID STRAIGHT ENGLISH.

"IT WAS USUALLY PSC.

"BUT ONSTAGE, THAT'S
WHERE WE WOULD SKEW

"MORE TOWARDS WHAT
YOU WOULD CALL ASL--

"MORE NATURAL SIGNING AND MORE

PICTORIAL LANGUAGE,
I WOULD SAY."

PETER SAID, "BUT MUCH MORE
FORMAL, RIGHT?"

AND MALZ SAYS, "YES.
VERY FORMAL."

KENNY SAYS...

"WELL, PETER AND I--ACTUALLY,
I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS.

"UM...PETER AND I AND OTHER
DEAF POETS TODAY,

"WE TEND TO BORROW
TECHNIQUES LIKE

"DIFFERENT CAMERA TECHNIQUES
FROM FILMS OR TV.

"CINEMATIC WAYS OF SIGNING.

"WE BORROW FROM DANCE.

"THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT
THINGS WE INCORPORATE.

"SO, WHERE DID YOU GET
YOUR INSPIRATION

"OR WHAT ARE THE TECHNIQUES
OR THINGS THAT

YOU INCORPORATED INTO YOURS?"

MALZ SAYS, "I CAN'T EVEN REALLY
EXPLAIN THAT.

IT WAS JUST THE WAY
IT WAS, YOU KNOW? UM..."

"YEAH, I DID CHANGE
SOME THINGS, BUT...

"FOR GOOD OR BAD,
I DON'T REALLY KNOW

"ABOUT THE NEW CHANGES
THAT I INITIATED, BUT,

"I MEAN, AT THAT TIME,
SOME PEOPLE SAID

THAT I WAS DESTROYING
SIGN LANGUAGE."

THEY SAID THAT. AND..."

"BECAUSE THEY DID THIS VERY
FORMALIZED WAY OF SIGNING..."

"IF SOMETHING WASN'T CLEAR,
THEY WOULD JETTISON IT.

"THEY WOULDN'T DO THAT.

"BUT I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY
DO THAT.

"I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY
THROW THINGS OUT.

"SO, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW,
I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY

"CHANGE THINGS.

"I WOULD JUST
MAKE UP SOME SIGNS.

"I WOULD INVENT SIGNS.

"THINGS THAT YOU'D
NEVER SEEN BEFORE.

"BUT THEY WERE PERFECTLY CLEAR
TO ANYBODY WHO SAW THEM.

"IN MY DAY,
PEOPLE DIDN'T DO THAT.

I WAS PRETTY MUCH
THE ONLY ONE."

"FOR EXAMPLE, THE SONG
IN 'SOUTH PACIFIC'

"THAT'S CALLED--LET'S SEE,
THERE'S THIS ONE.

"'BALI HA'I,'
THAT SONG.

"WELL, THERE'S A LINE IN THAT:

'BALI HA'I, WHERE THE SKY
MEETS THE SEA.'"

"WELL, MOST PEOPLE AT THE TIME,

"THE TRADITIONAL WAY
OF SIGNING IT

"WOULD BE 'WHERE THE SKY MEETS,'

"AS IN TWO PEOPLE MEETING
EACH OTHER, 'THE SEA.'

"BUT IN MY WAY OF THINKING,
IF THE SKY WAS ACTUALLY

TO MEET THE SEA THAT WAY,
WE'RE IN BIG TROUBLE."

[MAN LAUGHS]

"SO, WHAT I DID
WAS 'WHERE THE SKY,'

"AND THEN, SORT OF, 'MEETS,'
AS IN TWO PLANES,

THE SKY AND THE SEA MEETING
EACH OTHER AND BECOMING ONE."

"I HAVE THEM BECOME EACH OTHER
AND THEN

"REFLECT WITHIN EACH OTHER.

"SO, I MADE A BALANCE
OF THE SKY AND THE SEA.

"SO, I EXPERIMENTED WITH
A LOT OF DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES

"IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

"I'M NOT SAYING REALLY
I WAS THE ONLY ONE

"BUT I WAS THE ONLY ONE
WHO WAS CREATING SIGNS

IN THAT PARTICULAR WAY."

"AND THEN WITH NATIONAL THEATRE
OF THE DEAF,

"WHEN THAT WAS FINALLY FOUNDED,

"I WAS PART OF THAT,

"AND AT FIRST, I WAS
BERNARD BRAGG'S ASSISTANT.

"I WAS SUPPOSED
TO BE HELPING OUT

"WITH THE NEW PEOPLE THERE
WHO WERE JUST COMING ON

THE STAFF AND THE COMPANY, BUT
I HAD NOTHING TO DO, REALLY."

"AND BOB PANARA WAS ACTUALLY
AT NTD AT THE TIME.

"HE WAS TEACHING
HISTORY OF THEATER.

"AND HE KNEW THE SKILL
THAT I POSSESSED

"AND HE ASKED IF I WOULD BE
WILLING TO HELP HIM,

"AND I WOULD TEACH
THE HISTORY OF ACTING

"AS PART OF THE COURSE
THAT HE WAS OFFERING.

"I ACCEPTED THAT,
AND THEN DAVID HAYS

"SAW WHAT I WAS DOING
AND HE SAID,

"'WAIT A MINUTE.
FROM NOW ON,

"'WHAT I WANT YOU TO DO
IS SWITCH WITH BERNARD BRAGG.

"'BERNARD CAN TEACH
HISTORY OF ACTING

"AND I WANT YOU TO WORK
WITH THE COMPANY.'

"SO, I BASICALLY WORKED
WITH LINDA BOVE AND LOU FANT

"AND ALL THOSE PEOPLE--
PHYLLIS FRELICH FOR A FEW YEARS.

GIL EASTMAN."

"I TAUGHT ALL OF THOSE
EARLY NTD FOLKS.

"I TAUGHT THEM TO KIND OF
STRETCH THEIR ABILITIES

"AND BECOME MORE CREATIVE.

BEEF IT UP A LITTLE BIT MORE."

PETER SAYS,
"IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE

"WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
BORROWING TECHNIQUES

"FROM DIFFERENT THINGS,
AND, FOR INSTANCE

"KENNY AND I NOW
WILL GO SEE MOVIES

"AND WE'LL TRY A PANNING
TECHNIQUE WHERE

"HOUSES WILL PASS US BY AS IF
THE CAMERA IS PANNING,

"OR, YOU KNOW, WITH SIGN,
WE CAN MOVE THROUGH TREES

"AND HAVE THE TREES PASS US BY.

"WE CAN GO ABOVE THE TREES.

"WE CAN GO ABOVE
THE EARTH THAT WAY.

"OR USE THINGS
FROM PHOTOGRAPHY,

"AS IF SLIDES WERE
BEING SHOWN ON A WALL

"AND THE MOTION'S BEING FROZEN.

"THOSE SORTS OF TECHNIQUES.
I LEARNED THAT, YOU KNOW,

"AND BECAUSE THIS IS THE TIME
PERIOD THAT I WAS BORN INTO,

"THAT'S THE KIND OF THING
THAT I LIKE TO USE.

SO, WHAT YEAR WERE YOU BORN?"

MALZ SAYS, "1922."

AND PETER SAYS, "OK, 1922.

"SO, THERE WERE CARS
AT THE TIME.

"THERE WERE SILENT MOVIES.

"THAT WAS STILL PRETTY BIG
WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP.

"THERE WERE A LOT OF TECHNIQUES

"AND THEN THINGS GOT
FASTER AND FASTER.

"PEOPLE COULD PLAY WITH TIME,
THEN SPEED,

"AND THEN NEWER IDEAS
WOULD COME INTO THE CULTURE,

"AND I WONDERED IF THOSE WOULD
WORK THEIR WAY INTO THE SIGN.

"YOU COULD WAVE VERY FAST,
YOU COULD WAVE VERY SLOW,

"YOU COULD SLOW TIME DOWN
IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

"DID YOU SEE THESE
FILM TECHNIQUES

"OR SEE THINGS THAT
WERE REFLECTED

"IN THE WORLD
CHANGING AROUND YOU

AND THEN PUT THEM
INTO YOUR SIGN?"

MALZ SAID, "NO.
EVERYTHING I DID,

"I FOUND WITHIN MYSELF.

"BUT THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE

WHO DID BORROW IN
THE WAY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT."

"I THINK THAT THERE WERE
DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES

"THAT PEOPLE TRIED TO UTILIZE.

"LIKE, IF YOU WERE
GONNA DO A WESTERN,

"YOU HAD KIND OF
A JOHN WAYNE THING.

"A MAN WALKING SLOWLY.

"SHOWING THE HOLSTERS
BOUNCING ON HIS LEGS,

"PUSHING THE SALOON DOORS OPEN.

WALKING SLOWLY UP TO THE BAR."

"ONE BEER.

"YOU KNOW, BEHAVING LIKE

"WHAT PEOPLE SAW IN THE MOVIES.

"THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE
DOING THAT.

"NOT A LOT.

"I THINK LATER,
THAT CAME INTO BEING

"A LOT MORE, MAYBE FORTIES,
FIFTIES, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

"THERE WERE SEVERAL PEOPLE
WHO WERE REALLY GOOD.

"VERY, VERY GOOD.

BUT ONSTAGE..."

"WELL, IT SEEMED THAT

"MOST OF THE PEOPLE

"WERE VERY INTIMIDATED

"BY THEIR PERCEIVED NEED

"TO FOLLOW WHAT WAS THERE

"WITH THE RIGHT SIGNS,

"THE APPROPRIATE SIGNS,
BUT NOT ME.

"FOR EXAMPLE, THE FIRST PLAY
THAT I WAS IN AT GALLAUDET,

"I WAS SUPPOSED TO PLAY
A PRO WRESTLER,

"OK, WHICH IS REALLY FUNNY,

"BECAUSE I HAD REALLY LONG
HAIR AT THE TIME.

"NOT AS LONG AS YOURS, PETER,
AND CERTAINLY..."

[LAUGHTER]

"NOT THAT LONG, KENNY!

"BUT THE REASON I HAD
LONG HAIR, YOU KNOW,

"IS I WAS ALWAYS BUSY
AND I WAS ALWAYS BROKE.

"I COULDN'T AFFORD OR HAVE TIME
TO GO TO A BARBER,

"AND THAT'S THE ONLY REASON.

"YOU KNOW, AND I WAS
THE ONLY ONE WITH LONG HAIR.

"AND I HAD IT FOR THAT
PARTICULAR REASON.

"AND SO, PEOPLE SAY
IN THE FIFTIES OR SIXTIES,

"'OH, YOU'RE JUST
BEING A BAD BOY.'

"I SAID, 'NO, I'M BROKE
AND I'M BUSY.'

"THAT'S ALL.'
YOU KNOW,

"I'M TOO BROKE,
AND I'M TOO BUSY,'

"AND I'M STILL TOO BROKE
AND TOO BUSY,

"AND SOMETIMES MY HAIR
GETS A LITTLE LONG

"AND MY WIFE SAYS,
'PLEASE GO GET A HAIRCUT.

"YOU LOOK LIKE A SHEEPDOG.'

"SO, THEN I JUST COMPLY.

"BUT ANYWAY, THE LINE
FROM THIS PARTICULAR PLAY

"WAS, 'IF YOU'RE NOT CAREFUL,

"I'M GONNA GIVE YOU
A KNUCKLE SANDWICH.'

"WELL, AT THAT TIME, OR
BEFORE MY TIME, I SHOULD SAY,

"PEOPLE WOULD'VE SAID,
'I'M GONNA GIVE YOU A KNUCKLE,'

"AND THEN SIGNED 'SANDWICH,'
LIKE A REAL SANDWICH.

"OR, THEY'D SAY,
'IF YOU'RE NOT CAREFUL,

"I'M GOING TO HIT YOU.'

"WELL, THAT WORKS, I GUESS,

"BUT HERE'S HOW I DID THE LINE.

"'IF YOU'RE NOT CAREFUL'--

"BUT I DID 'ME,'
AND THEN I SHOWED MY KNUCKLES,

"AND I HAVE THE KNUCKLES
COME UP AND HIT THE PERSON.

"BECAUSE I REALLY FELT
IT WAS IMPORTANT

"TO EMPHASIZE THE KNUCKLE PART
OF THIS,

"NOT JUST THAT I WAS GONNA
HIT THEM, BUT THE KNUCKLES,

"AND THAT SHOCKED PEOPLE,
BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

"AND THAT'S KIND OF
HOW THE WAY I ROLL.

THAT'S WHAT I WOULD DO,
FOR GOOD OR BAD."

"MY FIRST--WELL, NOT
MY FIRST PERFORMANCE

"BUT MY FIRST CONNECTION
WITH THE GALLAUDET THEATER

"WAS NOT A GREAT ONE.

"I WAS ACTUALLY FIRED.

[LAUGHTER]

"BECAUSE THERE WERE
TWO GROUPS AT GALLAUDET

"IN TERMS OF
THEATRICAL ENTERPRISES.

"THERE WAS THE GALLAUDET
THEATER CLUB.

"THAT WAS FOR
THE ELITE PERFORMERS.

"THAT'S THE ONE
I WANTED TO GET INTO

"AND I APPLIED FOR THAT BECAUSE

"I REALLY FELT
I BELONGED IN THERE.

"AND THEY SAID, 'OK, YOU'LL BE
THE CURTAIN PULLER.

"'YOU'LL OPEN THE CURTAINS
AND CLOSE THE CURTAINS

"DURING THE PERFORMANCES.'

"AND THAT WAS ALL RIGHT WITH ME.
I ACCEPTED IT.

"IT WAS LIKE AN APPRENTICESHIP.

"THAT WAS COOL WITH ME.
THAT WAS FINE.

"BUT THE SECOND SHOW,
THE ROPES JAMMED,

"AND I COULDN'T GET THEM CLOSED
AND ALL THE ACTORS

"HAD TO FREEZE IN PLACE
ON THE STAGE.

"EVERYBODY FROZE.

"AND SOMEONE ELSE
HAD TO CLIMB UP THE ROPES

"AND UNJAM THEM BECAUSE
I WASN'T AGILE ENOUGH

"TO BE ABLE
TO SCALE THOSE ROPES

"AND UNDO THE KNOTS
OR WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS.

"SO, THEY ASKED ME VERY NICELY
TO NOT SHOW UP

"FOR THE THIRD SHOW
AND PULL THE DRAPES CLOSED.

"BUT THIS OTHER GROUP
ON CAMPUS AT THE TIME

"WAS ALSO UNDER THE AUSPICES
OF THE THEATER CLUB,

BUT IT WAS CALLED
AMATEUR NIGHT."

"AND IF YOU WERE SUCCESSFUL
IN AMATEUR NIGHT,

"THEN THEY WOULD ACCEPT YOU OVER
INTO THE ELITE DRAMA CLUB.

"AND WHAT'S WHERE I SHOWED
THAT 'KNUCKLE SANDWICH' LINE

"AND PEOPLE SAW THAT
AND IMMEDIATELY

"ALLOWED ME TO GO INTO THE RANKS
OF THE THEATER CLUB

"AND THEN I WAS IN THE PLAYS

"AND LATER WENT TO NEW YORK.

"NOW, ONE THING
I DO WANT YOU TO KNOW ABOUT

"WAS THAT PEOPLE--NOWADAYS,
I THINK,

"EXCEPT FOR MAYBE YOU
AND A COUPLE OTHERS

"AND ME, OF COURSE,
QUITE OFTEN,

"WE ARE LIMITED, OR
THEY'VE BEEN LIMITED

BY THE USE OF
VOICE INTERPRETERS."

"BECAUSE WAY BACK
IN THE DAY, OF COURSE,

"WE DIDN'T HAVE
ANY INTERPRETERS.

"EVERYBODY JUST DID
THEIR SIGNED PERFORMANCES

"WITHOUT INTERPRETERS.

"WE DIDN'T HAVE
TO THINK ABOUT THEM.

"I THINK IT SPOILS US IN A WAY.

"YOU KNOW, WHEN WE
WENT TO NEW YORK,

"WE HAD A FULL AUDIENCE OF
HEARING PEOPLE AT THE TIME.

"HOW WAS THIS GOING
TO GET ACROSS TO THEM?

"SO, WE DID ASK THIS ONE WOMAN

"WHO INTERPRETED FOR US
FROM GALLAUDET,

"SHE CAME TO NEW YORK WITH US,

"AND SHE DID THE WHOLE THING.

"NOW THERE'S INTERPRETERS
FOR EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME,

"BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE THAT
BACK IN THE DAY.

QUITE, QUITE DIFFERENT.
THINGS SURE HAVE CHANGED."

KENNY SAID, "WHO WAS THE WOMAN
WHO DID THAT BACK THEN?"

MALZ SAYS, "HER NAME
WAS ELIZABETH BENSON

AND SHE TAUGHT AT GALLAUDET."

"AND THERE'S ACTUALLY
A HALL ON CAMPUS

"THAT'S NAMED IN HER HONOR.

"ELIZABETH BENSON.

"SHE WAS A WONDERFUL SIGNER.
SHE WAS HEARING.

YES, YES."

MATTHEW ASKS...

"SO, WHEN PEOPLE SIGNED POETRY,

"DID THAT SEEM ACCEPTABLE

TO THE DEAF COMMUNITY
OUTSIDE OF GALLAUDET?"

"OR DID THEY NOT HAVE
ANY INTEREST IN IT AT ALL?"

MALZ SAYS, "THEY LOVED IT.

"THEY LOVED IT BECAUSE
IT WASN'T STRAIGHT ENGLISH.

"IT WAS NEVER PERFORMED
IN STRAIGHT ENGLISH.

"IF IT HAD BEEN
STRAIGHT ENGLISH,

"IT STILL WOULD HAVE
BEEN BEAUTIFUL,

"BECAUSE THEY PERFORMED IT
SO WELL.

"I THINK IT'S
THE SAME THING TODAY.

"YOU GO TO CHURCH, AND YOU HEAR
SOMEBODY SINGING HYMNS

"AND THEY'RE JUST
GORGEOUS, RIGHT?

"BUT NOBODY'S RUNNING AROUND
WHILE THEY'RE DOING IT.

"THEY'RE NOT DOING IT
IN A WILD WAY.

"THEY'RE DOING IT IN A VERY
FORMALLY PRODUCED WAY.

IN TERMS OF TECHNIQUES OF..."

"YOU KNOW, THAT BACK-AND-FORTH

"OF SOMEBODY SHOWING
DIFFERENT CHARACTERS

"AND STANDING IN ONE PLACE
THE WAY THAT PETER DOES,

"I WOULD HAVE TO THINK THAT

BERNARD BRAGG IS RESPONSIBLE
FOR MOST OF THAT."

MATTHEW SAYS,
"DO YOU THINK YOU'VE HAD

"SOME INFLUENCE ON
SIGNED PERFORMANCE

TECHNIQUES AND DEVELOPMENT?"

MALZ SAYS, "PERFORMANCES,
MAYBE NOT NECESSARILY.

"TECHNIQUES OF ACTING, YES.
I THINK SO. YES."

PETER SAID, "MATTHEW'S ASKING,
DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE

A BIG INFLUENCE ON SIGNERS?"

MALZ SAYS, "BERNARD HAS HAD
A LOT OF INFLUENCE ON PEOPLE

"BECAUSE HE TRAVELS A LOT,
AND HE SELLS HIMSELF.

"I DON'T DO THAT.
AND MAYBE THAT'S MY PROBLEM.

"I HAVE A LOT
OF MIXED FEELINGS.

"I MEAN, WHO THE HELL AM I TO

"TELL PEOPLE I'M THE GREATEST?

"I MEAN, COME ON.
I'M JUST ME.

SO..."

"BERNARD BRAGG, YES,
HAS HAD A BIG INFLUENCE

AND I HAVE, TOO, IN
A DIFFERENT WAY, I WOULD SAY."

PETER SAYS, "IN WHAT WAY?"

MALZ SAYS, "WELL,
I CREATED SIGNS.

"IT'S VERY FREE TO MOVE AROUND.

HAD A LOT MORE LIBERATION
IN MY MOVEMENTS."

KENNY ASKS, "YOU TALK ABOUT
HOW FORMAL AND BEAUTIFUL

"THE SIGNING WAS
BACK IN THE DAY,

"AND I'M CURIOUS.

"HAVE YOU SEEN
CLAYTON VALLI PERFORM?

YOU KNOW HIS WORK?"

"VALLI? WELL, WHAT HE'S DONE IS

"TAKE HIS FACIAL EXPRESSION

"AND MELD IT WITH THE SIGNS,

"BUT WITHOUT MOVING HIS MOUTH.

PETER, CAN YOU GIVE
AN EXAMPLE?"

PETER GIVES AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.
NO WORDS NEEDED TO GO WITH THAT.

KENNY SAYS, "YEAH,
JUST LIKE THAT.

"SO, IT'S AS IF HE'S
TAKEN THIS FORMAL, CLASSICAL

"WAY OF SIGNING
AND MELDED IT WITH

"CLASSICAL HEARING POETRY

"BY PUTTING ASL TO THAT

"AND USING SIMILAR
RULES AND CONSTRAINTS.

HAVE YOU SEEN THAT,
OR WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?"

MALZ SAYS, "YEAH, WELL,
THE EXPRESSION, HMM."

"REALLY, UM, TO BE
HONEST WITH YOU,

"I WASN'T THINKING ABOUT IT.

"WE WEREN'T THINKING ABOUT IT
THE SAME WAY YOU DO NOW.

"THERE'S SO MUCH
ANALYSIS GOING ON.

"I JUST DID IT. PERIOD.

"LIKE 'JABBERWOCKY,'
I DON'T KNOW.

"I WAS FLYING BLIND, REALLY.

"I JUST SIGNED WHAT I SIGNED.

"NOW, YOU KNOW CAROL PADDEN?

"SHE JUST PUBLISHED
THIS NEW BOOK,

"AND IN IT SHE SAYS,
"WOW,' YOU KNOW, LIKE, 'MALZ,

"'YOU FOLLOWED ALL OF
THESE ASL PRINCIPLES

"BEAUTIFULLY WITH
JABBERWOCKY.'"

"I HAD NO IDEA WHAT
ANY OF THIS WAS BACK THEN.

HONESTLY. I JUST DID IT."

"AND IT'S DIFFERENT.

"AND HERE'S
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN

"BERNARD BRAGG AND ME.

"BERNARD IS ALWAYS
INTERESTED IN THE TECHNIQUE

IN A VERY, I'D SAY,
CIRCUS-Y KIND OF WAY."

"AND I ALWAYS GO
FOR WHAT'S INSIDE,

"WITH THE EMOTIONAL RESONANCE.

THE EMOTION."

"I JUST WANT TO TAKE THAT OUT
AND SHOW THE CHARACTER.

"I THINK IT'S
MORE IMPORTANT TO ME

"THAT I SHOW THE TRUE,
AUTHENTIC CHARACTER

"AND THE SIGNING THEMSELVES
AREN'T NECESSARILY PERFECTION,

"BUT BERNARD TAKES GREAT PAINS

"TO SIGN PERFECTLY,

"AND SO, IN MY OPINION,

"A LOT OF HIS WORK GOES FLAT.

"IT SORT OF LOOKS ROBOTIC.

"THERE'S NO EMOTION IN THERE.
IT'S SO POLISHED.

"IT'S SO POLISHED
AND SUPERFICIAL AND PERFECT,

BUT THERE'S NO HEART TO IT."

"AND I WOULD PRACTICE
ALL MY LINES

"UNTIL I JUST
HAD THEM WELL ENOUGH,

"JUST GOOD ENOUGH,
BECAUSE WHEN I GO ONSTAGE,

"I WANTED TO COME TO IT FRESH.

"I WANTED TO FEEL
THAT IT WAS NEW.

"I WANTED TO CAPTURE
THAT AUDIENCE,

"GRAB THEM EVERY NIGHT.

"I WANTED TO BE FRESH.

I WANTED TO TAKE THAT AUDIENCE
AND MAKE THEM MINE."

"AND SO, I THINK THAT'S
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US.

"UM, I DON'T REALLY
FOLLOW HIS WORK ANYMORE.

I DON'T THINK HE PRODUCES
MUCH WORK ANYMORE."

KENNY SAYS, "SO,
YOUR WAY OF EXPRESSION

"AND GETTING THE HEART OUT,
LIKE YOU SAID,

YOU'RE NOT THINKING NECESSARILY
ABOUT TECHNIQUES AND WHATEVER."

"BUT WHEN YOU LOOK
AT 'JABBERWOCKY,'

"IT LOOKS LIKE THERE'S
TECHNIQUES IN THERE.

"YOU'RE NOT FOCUSING ON THEM,

BUT IT LOOKS LIKE
THEY CAME OUT."

AND MALZ SAYS,
"THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT."

"PANARA SAID I DON'T SIGN ASL.

I SIGN MALZ-SL.
MALZ SIGN LANGUAGE."

[LAUGHTER]

PETER SAYS, "GOING BACK TO WHAT
WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE.

"BACK IN GALLAUDET,
WHEN EVERYBODY WAS SIGNING

"THIS VERY FORMAL WAY,

"WERE THERE OTHER
POPULAR SIGNERS?

GOLLADAY AND LOWMAN
AND ALL THOSE NAMES?"

MALZ SAYS, "NO."

"DON'T CONFUSE THE WRITTEN POETS

"WITH THE SIGNING POETS, OK?

THEY ARE TWO COMPLETELY
SEPARATE GROUPS, BECAUSE..."

"WELL, BRAGG WROTE ONE POEM,
ONLY ONE..."

"AND I WROTE A FEW MORE,

"BUT WHILE I WAS AT GALLAUDET,

"I NEVER SIGNED MY OWN POETRY.

"I SIGNED THINGS THAT
OTHER PEOPLE WROTE.

I DIDN'T SIGN MY OWN."

"POETS RARELY SIGNED
THEIR OWN POETRY.

"THEY USED THEIR ACTING SKILLS

"TO ADAPT FROM
OTHER WRITTEN POETRY,

BUT THEY DIDN'T DO THEIR OWN."

PETER SAYS, "I WONDER
WHY THAT WAS."

AND MALZ SAYS, "PART OF
THE REASON IS THAT..."

"YOU WRITE POETRY IN ENGLISH,

GET ALL YOUR LINES DOWN."

"AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD SAY,
'I CAN'T SIGN THAT.'

"WELL, UNTIL I CAME ALONG,
THAT IS,

"BECAUSE I WAS VERY AGGRESSIVE,
AND I THINK I CAN SIGN ANYTHING.

"I DON'T HAVE
THOSE KINDS OF FEARS.

"BUT NOBODY BEFORE ME HAD THAT
KIND OF AGGRESSION IN THEM.

"YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ALWAYS SAY,
'I CAN'T, I CAN'T, I CAN'T.

"I'LL ONLY PICK THE ONE
THAT I THINK IS POSSIBLE,'

WHEREAS, I THINK
I COULD DO ANYTHING."

"LIKE 'THE RIME OF
THE ANCIENT MARINER.'

"I DID THAT ONE.
THAT'S A VERY LONG--

"THAT'S AN EPIC POEM
BY COLERIDGE.

"I PICKED THAT ONE ONE TIME.

"THE BOAT UPON THE OCEAN

"WITH THE WAVES CRASHING
AGAINST IT.

"SOMEBODY GRABBING THE WHEEL

"AS THE SPRAY HITS THEIR FACE.

"I MEAN, I STAYED IN ONE PLACE

"AND USED A LOT OF EXPRESSION.

"NOT ENOUGH, IN MY OPINION.

"SOME PEOPLE, WHEN THEY
DO THESE LONG POEMS,

"BUT THE SIGNS ARE
REALLY BEAUTIFUL.

SOME PEOPLE DID THAT."

"MOST PEOPLE AT THAT TIME
TOOK ACTING CLASSES."

"THERE WAS A GENTLEMAN NAMED
OLIVER CASSELL.

"HE TAUGHT PRINTING FOR MANY
YEARS IN WASHINGTON STATE.

"HE'S RETIRED NOW.

"YOU KNOW ABOUT HIM? NO?

"NO, IT'S FUNNY.

"THERE WERE
OTHER PEOPLE LIKE HIM.

"THERE WAS DEANDER MOORE.

"NOW, DEANDER IS REALLY, REALLY
INTERESTING, ACTUALLY.

HE WAS VERY AWARE
OF TECHNIQUE."

"AND NOT JUST SIGNING
BUT BODY MOVEMENT.

"QUITE OFTEN, HE WOULD
TAKE ON THIS CHARACTER

"AND HE WOULD ACT AS IF
HE HAD A PEG LEG.

"AND HE WOULD PUT ON
THIS FAKE APPENDAGE

AND HE WOULD
STUMP AROUND ONSTAGE."

KENNY SAYS, "COULD YOU SHOW US
WHAT HE WOULD LOOK LIKE?

WHAT WOULD HIS PARTICULAR STYLE
LOOK LIKE FOR US?"

MALZ SAID, "WELL,
I CAN'T REALLY, BUT, UM...

"WHAT WAS INTERESTING
ABOUT HIM--

"WELL, OLIVER CASSELL--

JUST BEAUTIFUL THE WAY
HE PRODUCED SIGNING."

"YOU KNOW, EVERY GENERATION
WOULD HAVE SOMEBODY LIKE HIM,

"SOME BEAUTIFUL,
BEAUTIFUL SIGNER.

"EVERY GROUP,
EVERY 4 OR 5 YEARS,

"YOU'D BE ABLE TO POINT SOMEBODY
OUT AND SAY, "WOW,

"LOOK AT THAT PERSON."

"AND, YOU KNOW, MAYBE THEY WOULD
GET THINGS GOING AND MAYBE NOT,

"IN ANOTHER GROUP, BUT FEW
OF THOSE WOULD BECOME FAMOUS,

"AND THE REASON WAS THAT THEY
WEREN'T DOING ANYTHING NEW.

"EVERYTHING WAS
PRETTY MUCH THE SAME.

"SO, YES, THEY WERE
THESE BEAUTIFUL SIGNERS,

"BUT THERE WAS NOTHING
NEW OR GROUNDBREAKING

"UNTIL I CAME ALONG.

"AND I FELT FREE TO
WRESTLE WITH THE LANGUAGE

"AND STRETCH IT AND MOLD IT

"AND PLAY WITH THE SIGNS
IN A DIFFERENT WAY

"AND START SOMETHING NEW.

"AND THEN LATER,
BRAGG CAME ALONG

"AND HE FELT FREE TO USE,
YOU KNOW, VV

"AND USE OTHER TECHNIQUES,
AND HE CHANGED THINGS UP

"IN HIS PARTICULAR WAY,
SO, I THINK THE TWO OF US

"HAD THE MOST INFLUENCE.

"BUT THERE WERE THESE PEOPLE,
LIKE OLIVER CASSELL OR WHOEVER,

"BUT NOBODY'S EVER
HEARD OF THEM.

"BEAUTIFUL SIGNS, AS I SAID,

"BUT NOT DEVELOPING ANYTHING NEW
IN A DIFFERENT WAY,

"AND DEANDER. OH, YEAH, RIGHT.

"I CAN GIVE YOU THIS EXAMPLE.

"I CAN SHOW YOU SOMETHING.

"SO, WHEN I SIGN 'JABBERWOCKY,'

"CASSELL AND MOORE,
THEY WATCHED ME,

"AND THEY LOOKED LIKE THIS.

"THEY WERE JUST AGHAST.

AND THEY WERE SHOCKED."

"NOW, MOORE..."

HE ALWAYS TRIED TO ACT..."

"AND HIDE HIMSELF
BEHIND MAKEUP.

"HE WOULD TAKE
THESE DIFFERENT ROLES.

"HE WOULD USE COSTUMES

"AND DIFFERENT CHARACTERS

"AND HIDE HIMSELF,

"AND THAT'S WHY I THINK IT WAS

"SUPERFICIAL IN A SENSE.

"THEN HE LEFT COLLEGE,
I THINK IT WAS,

"I DON'T KNOW,
SOPHOMORE OR JUNIOR YEAR,

AND THEN I WENT
TO BROADWAY, NEW YORK."

"AND I FELT LIKE
HE SHOULD'VE BEEN THERE.

"YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT HE WAS

"BETTER TECHNIQUE-WISE
THAN I WAS.

"HE WAS BETTER AT ACTING
IN SOME WAYS

"AND MAYBE HE
SHOULD'VE BEEN THERE.

"BUT I DIDN'T NECESSARILY
HAVE THAT TECHNICAL PART,

"BUT MY FOCUS WAS

"TO PROJECT A CHARACTER,

"A REAL RESONANCE
OF A PERSONAGE

THROUGH THE SIGNING."

"SO, IF A LINE IS 'I'M
TELLING YOU TO STOP,' RIGHT,

"I WOULD MOVE CLOSER TO YOU.

"SO, BEFORE THAT,
PEOPLE WOULDN'T

"ACT IN THAT PARTICULAR WAY.

"THEY'D SAY,
"STOP, FINISH," WHATEVER,

"BUT I WANTED TO SHOW

"MORE MENACE.

"SO, I WOULD SLOW THINGS DOWN

"AND I WOULD MOVE
TOWARDS THE PERSON.

"SO, I MEAN, I DID THESE

"DIFFERENT SORTS OF THINGS
THAN OTHER PEOPLE DID.

"I WAS ACTING IN A DIFFERENT WAY

"THAN OTHER PEOPLE DID, SO,

THAT'S JUST ME."

MATTHEW ASKS...

"SO, WERE ANY
HEARING PEOPLE INVOLVED IN

"ANY OF THESE PURSUITS, LIKE...

"I MEAN, DID YOU HAVE
ANY HEARING PEOPLE

WHO WERE PART OF THIS, OR THEY
WEREN'T ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE?"

MALZ ASKS, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY
BEING INVOLVED AND PARTICIPATE?"

MATTHEW SAYS, "LIKE IN
THE POETRY, SIGNING POETRY.

WERE HEARING PEOPLE
PART OF THIS?"

MALZ SAID, "WELL, NO. BARELY.

"I MEAN, THEY
PROBABLY NEVER THOUGHT OF IT.

"WE NEVER THOUGHT TO ASK THEM,

"AND HEARING PEOPLE NEVER
VOLUNTEERED

TO BE PART OF IT AT ALL."

"NOW, TO BE FAIR,
WE DIDN'T REALLY ASK THEM

"AND WE DIDN'T WANT THEM TO.

"DO YOU KNOW AT THE TIME
THAT IN GALLAUDET,

"DEAF PEOPLE COULDN'T GO
TO GRAD SCHOOL?

"I WANTED TO LEARN
TO BECOME A TEACHER

"BUT I HAD TO GO TO
A HEARING COLLEGE TO DO THAT,

"BECAUSE GALLAUDET WOULDN'T
LET ME IN WHEN I APPLIED.

"THEY ONLY TOOK
HEARING STUDENTS TO BE

"PART OF THEIR
MASTER'S PROGRAM, SO,

"ASKING HEARING PEOPLE
TO BE INVOLVED

"WASN'T REALLY NECESSARILY
WHAT WE WANTED TO DO.

"WE HAD OUR TURF,
THEY HAD THEIRS.

KNOW WHAT I MEAN?"

"THIS WAS UNSPOKEN.

"NOBODY EVER TALKED
ABOUT IT, REALLY,

"UNTIL I WENT TO NEW YORK,

"AND THAT WAS
REALLY INTERESTING,

"AND I WAS ON BROADWAY,

"AND WE NEEDED SOME
HEARING PEOPLE TO BE INVOLVED,

"AND WE ASKED THEM, AND THEN

"THE SON OF THE PRESIDENT

"OF THE DEAF CLUB
THERE--JOHN HALL--

HE CAME AND HELPED."

"HE HELPED WITH THE SETS,
AND THAT WAS GREAT.

"AND THAT WAS THE FIRST
HEARING PERSON

"WHO WAS REALLY INVOLVED
WITH US, AND HE GAVE US

A LOT OF SUPPORT, HELPING US
WITH THE SETS AND STUFF."

KENNY ASKED, "DID HEARING PEOPLE
GO AND WATCH AND ENJOY IT?"

MALZ SAYS, "YES."

KENNY SAID, "YOU MEAN--I DON'T
MEAN BROADWAY.

"I MEAN BEFORE,
WITH THE DIFFERENT

"SIGNING OF POETRY
AND WHAT HAVE YOU ON CAMPUS.

WERE HEARING PEOPLE OUT IN
THE AUDIENCE WATCHING YOU?"

MALZ SAID...

"WELL, SOME OF THE GRAD STUDENTS

"WOULD BE THERE.

"THAT WAS CALLED
THE NORMAL STUDENTS,

"BECAUSE IT WAS CALLED
THE NORMAL SCHOOL AT THE TIME.

"HOW MANY?
I DON'T KNOW.

"OR IF IT WAS ALL OF THEM,
I DON'T KNOW.

"I DIDN'T LOOK AT
THE AUDIENCE NECESSARILY

"WHILE I WAS PERFORMING.

"YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY DANGEROUS
IF YOU LOOK AT

"ANY ONE PARTICULAR PERSON
IN THE AUDIENCE

"WHEN YOU'RE
PERFORMING, BECAUSE

"THAT CAN REALLY MESS YOU UP.

"YOU CAN JUST--WHAT IF SOMEBODY
FLIPS YOU THE FINGER?

"YOU'RE GONNA LOSE
ALL YOUR LINES

"AND YOU'RE GONNA GO
COMPLETELY OFF TASK

"BECAUSE YOU'LL LOSE
YOUR CONCENTRATION.

"SO, I ALWAYS LOOK
WAY IN THE BACK,

"OUT IN THE BACK
OF THE THEATER.

"I NEVER LOOK AT
ANYBODY IN PARTICULAR.

"SO, I DON'T KNOW.
I MEAN, I DO KNOW THAT

"SOME HEARING PEOPLE
WERE THERE,

"AND THERE WERE SOME TEACHERS,
OF COURSE, TOO.

"THEY LOVED IT.

"MY PSYCHOLOGY TEACHER,

"I'VE TOLD YOU
STORIES ABOUT HIM.

"HE WAS GREAT.
OH, HE WAS FANTASTIC

"AND HE LOVED
COMING TO THE PLAYS

"AND HE WOULD SAY,
'OK, ON TOMORROW'S EXAM,

"'I WANT TO KNOW
WHAT DID ERIC ACT OUT

"'IN HIS ROLE AS JONATHAN?

"'WHAT PARTICULAR PSYCHOLOGICAL
EMOTIONAL STATE

"WAS HE PROJECTING?'

"SO, HE WOULD USE THE PLAYS
AS PART OF THE EXAMS

OR PART OF
THE COURSE MATERIAL."

"NOW, ANOTHER PERSON WHO ALSO
WENT TO NEW YORK WITH US..."

"WAS INTERESTING.

"SHE TAUGHT DRAMA WITH HUGHES,

"OK, IN THAT CLASS,

"ON DRAMA NIGHT
AND AMATEUR NIGHT.

"SHE TAUGHT WITH HIM.

"SHE WAS A HEARING WOMAN,

"JUST ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL,

"BEAUTIFUL WOMAN--
ENGLISH TEACHER.

"THAT WAS ELIZABETH BENSON,
AND SHE--

"WELL, SHE DIRECTED ME.

"SHE DIRECTED ME IN A PLAY
CALLED "THE BOOR," BY CHEKHOV.

VERY GOOD DIRECTOR.
THIS HEARING WOMAN."

"AND SHE SIGNED GREAT.

"WE WENT TO NEW YORK, AND SHE
WAS THE VOICE INTERPRETER.

"BUT SHE ALSO...SHE KIND OF
MADE OUT AS

"SOMEBODY WHO COULD, YOU KNOW,
ADD SOME IDEAS

"TO WHAT WE NEEDED
AND, YOU KNOW,

"WE TOOK IN HER IDEAS.

"USUALLY WE USED
MINE INSTEAD,

"BUT SHE MOSTLY WAS THERE
TO INTERPRET FOR US.

"BUT I DO HAVE TO
GIVE HER CREDIT, BECAUSE

"SHE WAS THE FIRST
HEARING PERSON

TO BE INVOLVED IN
THE GALLAUDET DRAMA PURSUITS."

"AND SHE ALSO TAUGHT CLASSES.

"IT WAS REALLY SAD
BECAUSE, LET'S SEE.

"SHE WAS PART OF THINGS.

"OTHER PEOPLE WOULD COME UP AND
BE PART OF IT FOR A LITTLE WHILE

"AND THEN THEY WOULD DISAPPEAR.

"AND THEN THEY WOULD
STOP GOING TO CLASS.

"THEY JUST DECIDED,
'EH, IT'S NOT WORTH IT.'

"AND I KNOW THAT IT
REALLY BROKE HER HEART,

"IT BROKE HUGHES' HEART.

"AND THEY SET UP THE OFFICIAL
DRAMA DEPARTMENT LATER,

"AND THEN THOSE TWO
WEREN'T INVOLVED ANYMORE.

"THEY PICKED OTHER PEOPLE.

"SO, THEY HAD
HEARING PEOPLE RUN IT.

"THEY HAD THIS ONE MAN WHO WAS
RUNNING THE DRAMA DEPARTMENT

"AND DID FROM THEN ON,
BUT THOSE TWO WERE SO GREAT.

"YOU KNOW, THEY WERE WONDERFUL.

"THEY WERE MASTERS, REALLY.

"HUGHES WAS
A MASTER STORYTELLER.

"HE WAS GREAT, AND HE WENT
ALL OVER THE PLACE.

"HE WENT TO NEW YORK
QUITE OFTEN AS A STORYTELLER.

"SIGNING STORIES.
JUST AMAZING.

BEAUTIFUL. I LEARNED A LOT
FROM HIM, ACTUALLY."

"HE WENT ALL OVER
MICHIGAN AND NEW YORK

"TELLING STORIES, DOING POETRY.

MM-HMM. ACTING."

"STANDING ONSTAGE
IN ONE PLACE, OF COURSE."

PETER SAYS, "EVERYBODY
STOOD IN ONE PLACE?"

"OH, YES," MALZ SAYS.
"OH, YES.

YOU KNOW, THAT WAS THE WAY
IT WAS, OF COURSE."

PETER SAYS, "A PERSON WHO'S
PERFORMING POETRY

WOULD MOVE AROUND?"

MALZ SAID, "OF COURSE,
I THINK SO,

"AND THAT'S WHAT
I DID WITH 'JABBERWOCKY.'

"I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT
TO BE MOVING AROUND.

"AND THAT'S WHAT I LIKED
ABOUT JOE VELEZ.

"HE MOVED AROUND
AND RAN AROUND, TOO.

"I MEAN, I CAN'T RUN
ANYMORE THESE DAYS,

BUT I USED TO MOVE QUITE A BIT
AROUND ONSTAGE."

"VELEZ HAD A BETTER FACE
THAN I DID.

HE HAD KIND OF A RUBBER FACE."

"NOW, YOU GET THE PICTURE OF
VELEZ, IF YOU'VE SEEN HIM.

"HE HAD THIS BETTER
FACIAL EXPRESSION THAN I DID,

"AND SO, I TOOK
MY 'JABBERWOCKY,'

"AND I PICKED THE BEST
ASPECTS OF THEM

"TO GIVE TO HIM, SO, THEY WERE

PARTIALLY MINE
AND PARTIALLY HIS."

"IT'S INTERESTING.

"HOW I FELT ABOUT MY
'JABBERWOCKY' IN 1939.

"I MEAN, I CAME UP WITH IT THEN

"AND THEN YEARS AND YEARS
AND YEARS LATER,

"IT WAS JUST MINE.

"IT WAS ALL MINE
FOR THE LONGEST TIME.

"THEN IT WAS 1960--I DON'T KNOW.

"WHAT WAS, '67, '68,
'69 OR SOMETHING

"WHEN NTD WAS FINALLY FOUNDED,

"AND THEN ALL MY ANIMALS,

"THERE THEY WERE
IN THEIR LITTLE CAGES,

"AND I HAD TO TAKE
ALL THOSE CAGES AND THEN

"GIVE THEM TO JOE VELEZ,
WHICH IS WHAT I DID.

"ALL MY ANIMALS WERE GONE,
AND IT BROKE MY HEART.

ALL MY ANIMALS WERE GONE."

PETER SAID,
"YOU GAVE THEM TO HIM?"

MALZ SAYS, "WELL,
WHAT I DID WAS...

"IT'S LIKE IF YOU
BECOME A FATHER

"AND YOU HAVE THIS
BEAUTIFUL CHILD.

"YOU WANT THEM TO BE SUCCESSFUL

"AND THEN THEY GROW UP,
AND THEN THEY GO AWAY,

"AND YOU LET THEM GO,
AND YOU SAY GOOD-BYE,

"AND YOU DON'T WANT YOUR CHILD
TO GO AWAY, RIGHT?

BUT LET ME EXPLAIN
WHAT HAPPENED EXACTLY."

"SO, AT FIRST, DAVID HAYS

"HAD ME WORKING AS
A TRANSLATOR WITH NTD.

"AND HE SAID, 'MALZ...
HAVE A FEW BEERS

"AND THEN SHOW ME
JABBERWOCKY.'

"SO, I DRANK A FEW BEERS,

"AND HE SAID, 'NOW
SHOW ME JABBERWOCKY.'

"BECAUSE HE'D NEVER
SEEN IT BEFORE.

"SO, BRAGG AND OTHER PEOPLE,
YOU KNOW, WERE AROUND,

"AND THEY WANTED--
FOR THE FIRST SHOW,

"THEY THOUGHT IT'D
BE REALLY WORTH IT

"TO HAVE 'JABBERWOCKY' AS
PART OF THE FIRST THING OFFERED.

"AND SO, THEY HAD NEVER BEEN
SIGNED LIKE THAT EVER,

"AND NOBODY HAD EVER
SEEN IT SIGNED, SO,

"DAVID HAYS REALLY
WANTED TO DO IT,

"AND I DIDN'T WANT TO VOLUNTEER
TO BE THE ONE TO DO IT.

"UM, YOU KNOW, I'M A MIXTURE OF

"AN EGOTISTICAL PERSON

"AND A VERY SHY MAN
AT THE SAME TIME.

"SO, I DIDN'T WANT
TO BE THE ONE

"TO BRING THIS FORTH
ON THE STAGE.

"SO, I DRANK MY BEERS.

"HE SAID, 'OK,
NOW LET ME SEE IT.'

"SO, DRUNK AS A SKUNK,
I WENT OUT THERE

"AND I PERFORMED 'JABBERWOCKY,'

"JUST, YOU KNOW, BARELY
ABLE TO STAY UPRIGHT,

"AND HE WANTED
TO SIGN THE CONTRACT.

"AND FIRST, BERNARD BRAGG
ACTUALLY WANTED IT,

"BUT I SAID, 'NO WAY.'

"I DID NOT WANT HIM TO DO IT.

"I DID NOT WANT
BERNARD TO DO IT.

I WANTED JOE VELEZ
TO BE THE ONE."

PETER SAYS,
"WAS BERNARD UPSET?"

AND MALZ SAYS, "OH, YES,
HE WAS VERY MAD AT ME."

HE'S STILL MAD AT ME TODAY.
HE'S ALWAYS MAD AT ME."

[MAN LAUGHS]

MATTHEW SAYS, "REALLY?"

AND MALZ SAID, "YES."

AND...

"HE WROTE 'TALES
FROM A CLUB ROOM,'

"AND WHEN I LOOKED
AT THE SCRIPT,

"I THOUGHT IT WAS AWFUL,
SO, I FIXED IT UP

"AND I GAVE IT BACK TO HIM
AND HE THANKED ME

"FOR HAVING FIXED IT UP
AND EDITED IT,

"AND THEN--THIS WAS BACK IN
THE DAY, THIS WAS A WHILE AGO,

"AND I WENT TO SEE THE SHOW.

THERE'S NO TICKET WAITING
FOR ME IN THE LOBBY. NOTHING."

"AND I WONDERED IF MY NAME
WOULD BE MENTIONED

"IN PART OF THE CREDITS.

"THERE WAS NOTHING.
ACTUALLY, ON THE BACK

"OF THE PROGRAM, THEY GAVE
SPECIAL THANKS TO MALZ,

"AND I THOUGHT, 'OK,
MAYBE HE WAS JUST BUSY,

"FORGOT TO PUT ME
IN THE CREDITS.'

"BUT I THOUGHT HE SHOULD
SHARE THE CREDIT WITH ME.

"SO THE GROUP THAT ALL
WERE TOGETHER, YOU KNOW,

"WAS KIND OF ANGRY THAT
MY NAME WASN'T THERE,

AND THEY FOUGHT FOR ME,
BUT THAT'S HIM, THAT'S BERNARD."

"AND SO, WE DON'T
WORK TOGETHER ANYMORE.

"WE'RE NOT CLOSE ANYMORE.

"BUT THAT'S THE WAY HE IS. OK?

"I JUST FELT LIKE
THAT'S IT FOR ME.

"THAT'S IT.
I WORKED WITH HIM.

"IT WAS VERY FRUSTRATING.

"LIKE AT NTD, I DID WORK
WITH HIM AT NTD, OF COURSE,

"AND I...GAVE HIM A LOT
OF CREDIT FOR WHAT HE DID.

"HE'S REALLY WONDERFUL, BUT--

"HE'S WONDERFUL AT WHAT HE DOES,
BUT I DON'T THINK HE'S WONDERFUL

"AS A PERSON, NECESSARILY,

"BUT I DON'T WANT YOU
TO WRITE THAT, OK?

I DO NOT WANT THAT
TO GO DOWN IN PRINT."

"HE'D COME AFTER ME TO ASK

"IF I WOULD BE INVOLVED
WITH THINGS WITH HIM,

"IF I WOULD BE PART OF THINGS.

"I'D SAY, 'OH, NO,
MY ARMS HURT,'

"AND IT IS TRUE THAT
MY ARMS DO HURT SOMETIMES.

"I CAN'T SIGN.
LIKE, LAST NIGHT

"AFTER THE PERFORMANCE,
IT REALLY HURT A LOT.

"BUT I GET THROUGH IT
AND I FINISH IT UP.

"BUT I WILL NOT PUT MYSELF
THROUGH ANY PAIN FOR HIM.

"NOT ANYMORE,
EVEN WHEN HE ASKS ME.

"SO, THAT'S WHY HE'S
MAD AT ME SOMETIMES.

"LET'S SEE, I THINK--LAST TIME
HE WAS MAD AT ME.

LAST MAY, I THINK."

"I WAS WORKING WITH
SOME INTERPRETERS

"FOR 'ON THE TOWN,' THAT
SHOW 'ON THE TOWN,' THE MUSICAL,

"AND SO, I WAS WORKING WITH
INTERPRETERS TO FIGURE IT OUT.

"AND IN THE PROGRAM, THEY HAD

"SOME PARAGRAPHS ABOUT
THE INTERPRETATION,

"AND THEY DID HAVE SOMETHING
ABOUT ME IN THERE, TOO.

"AND THEY HAD SOMETHING ABOUT
BERNARD BRAGG IN THERE ALSO.

"BUT I WROTE MINE MYSELF.

"I WROTE THIS BIO MYSELF.

"AND I HAD, 'MALZ STARTED
WORKING IN THE THEATER

"'IN 1939.'

"AND THAT'S ALL I WROTE.

"AND HE WROTE--OH, MY GOD, THIS
THING THAT, YOU KNOW, LIKE,

"HEH HEH. THAT WENT ON AND ON

"AND HE SHOULD'VE
DONE WHAT I DID,

"BUT BERNARD CAME UP TO ME
AND, YOU KNOW, HE SAID,

"OH, YOU SHOULD SAY THAT YOU

"WORKED UNDER ME
AND WHAT HAVE YOU.

"I MEAN, THAT'S JUST--I SAID,
'YOU KNOW, BERNIE, YOU KNOW,

"'THAT'S JUST TOO LONG AGO
AND WE DON'T REALLY

"WORK TOGETHER ANYMORE,'
AND, YOU KNOW,

"THAT'S JUST NOT WHAT I WANT."

"AND HE GOT REALLY MAD WITH ME

"AND WE'RE NOT
SPEAKING ANYMORE.

"HE HASN'T TALKED TO ME SINCE.

"BUT JUST PUT THAT ASIDE.
IT JUST REALLY DOESN'T MATTER.

"I MEAN, HE IS KEY FOR
TECHNIQUES, I THINK,

"AND I'M KEY FOR
THE CREATION OF SIGNS,

"AND I THINK THAT'S
HOW IT ALL FALLS OUT.

"WE'RE VERY DIFFERENT PEOPLE,
BUT I DO ADMIRE

"HIS COMMITMENT TO HIS SKILL

"AND...I THINK
HE'S THE BEST MIME

I'VE EVER SEEN, TRUTHFULLY."

"WHAT BOTHERS ME IS THAT HE

"USES THE SAME SORT OF
TECHNIQUES ALL THE TIME.

"THERE'S NOTHING NEW
IN HIS REPERTOIRE.

"AND I WANT TO SAY,
'COME ON. DO SOMETHING NEW.

"DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.'

"BUT HE RARELY DOES.

"I'M ALWAYS INTERESTED
IN NEW THINGS--

"WHAT'S UP AND COMING.

"AND THAT'S WHY 'JABBERWOCKY'
WAS SUCH A BIG THING FOR ME.

"I MEAN, IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO.

"IT WAS 1939, AS I SAY,

"AND I'M LOOKING--I'M STILL
LOOKING FOR NEW THINGS,

"BUT THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE WHO

HAVEN'T EXPLORED POTENTIAL
TO DO SOMETHING NEW."

MATTHEW SAYS, "I WAS TALKING
TO KENNY AND PETER

"ABOUT HOW IT SEEMS
LIKE POETRY'S BEEN LOST

"IN THE DEAF COMMUNITY
FOR A WHILE.

"IT SEEMS LIKE IN
THE SIXTIES OR SEVENTIES,

"MAYBE THERE WASN'T MUCH,
AND I GUESS BY THAT I MEAN...

"BY THAT I MEAN--YEAH,

"I'M TALKING ABOUT
SIGNING, NOT WRITING.

"I'M TALKING
ABOUT SIGNING POETRY.

"NOW, I UNDERSTAND THAT BACK IN
THE THIRTIES OR FORTIES,

"IT SEEMED LIKE IT WAS
QUITE POPULAR TO SIGN

"IN THIS VERY BEAUTIFUL,
FORMALISTIC WAY,

"AND THAT THAT WAS ACCEPTABLE
IN THE DEAF COMMUNITY,

"WHILE HEARING PEOPLE, YOU KNOW,
WERE STILL BANGING THE DRUM

"ABOUT HOW ENGLISH WAS
IMPORTANT, SO, I WONDERED

"IF DEAF PEOPLE BECAME
SCARED OFF FROM POETRY

"BECAUSE IN THEIR MINDS,
POETRY EQUALS ENGLISH.

"THEY CONFLATE THE TWO.

"AND SO, I WONDERED--
YOU HAD THIS GENERATION

"OF STARTING IT,
AND I WONDER IF

"MAYBE IT'S TIME TO
REVIVE IT IN A SENSE,

"BECAUSE IT'S--THERE'S A GAP,
I THINK,

"BETWEEN YOUR TIME
AND WHAT'S GOING ON NOW

"WITH A REJUVENATION OF POETRY.

WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?"

MALZ SAYS, "I CAN'T REALLY
ANSWER THAT SPECIFICALLY

"BECAUSE I WAS REALLY
OUT OF IT FOR A WHILE.

FOR SOME YEARS, I WASN'T
INVOLVED WITH IT AT ALL."

"I WAS BUSY."

"I HAD CHILDREN, AND MY CHILDREN

"WERE REALLY INVOLVED
WITH BASEBALL,

"SO, FOR MANY YEARS,
10 YEARS OR SO,

"I WAS FOCUSED ON
DRIVING MY KIDS AROUND

"TO ALL
THEIR BASEBALL PRACTICES.

"I WAS OFFICIAL SCOREKEEPER
FOR THE LITTLE LEAGUE.

"ALL THE KIDS--
THE KIDS WERE HEARING.

"I WAS THE ONLY DEAF PERSON,
BUT I WAS MANAGING

"AND I WAS INVOLVED IN THAT
FOR, LIKE, 10 YEARS OR SO.

"SO, PEOPLE SAY,
'WERE YOU A HERMIT?'

"AND I'D SAY, 'I'M NOT A HERMIT.
I'M A FATHER.

"'ONCE MY KIDS ARE GROWN UP,

"'YOU'LL SEE ME AGAIN.

"JUST WAIT.'

SO, I CAN'T REALLY
ANSWER THAT QUESTION."

KENNY SAYS, "SO, YOU SAID THAT
THERE WERE CLUBS BACK IN THE DAY

"AND MAYBE THERE WAS POETRY
BEING PERFORMED IN THOSE CLUBS,

AND GALLAUDET, TOO."

"WOULD YOU SAY THAT--
DID THINGS BECOME

"MORE OFFICIAL THEN,
MORE FORMAL?

LIKE, WHAT HAPPENED
WITH THE LIT SOCIETY?"

MALZ SAYS,
"THE LITERARY SOCIETY

"WENT FOR THE LONGEST TIME.

"IT'S STILL GOING.

"BUT I DOUBT

"THAT IT'S THE SAME WAY.

LET ME JUST SAY..."

"I CAN'T SPEAK SPECIFICALLY
TO THIS.

"I MEAN, I WAS INVOLVED
WITH A CERTAIN ASPECT OF IT,

"AND GALLAUDET,

JUST A LITTLE BIT."

"THEY INVITE ME TO COME
ONCE IN A WHILE

"AND GIVE SPEECHES
OR GIVE PRESENTATIONS,

"BUT I DID TEACH AT MSSD,
AND I WAS MORE ON

"THAT END OF THINGS,
SO, I LOST TOUCH

WITH THE MAIN PART
OF GALLAUDET."

AND KENNY SAID, "DID YOU GO TO
OTHER PEOPLE AND TALK TO THEM

"AND SAY, "OH,
SHOW ME SIGNED POETRY"?

DID PEOPLE WANT TO SEE THAT?"

MATTHEW SAYS, "LIKE,
IF PEOPLE NOW MEET YOU,

DO THEY SAY, 'SHOW ME YOUR
POETRY, SHOW ME WHAT YOU DO'?"

MALZ SAYS, "NO.

"NO. I MEAN, I DON'T
SELL MYSELF THAT WAY.

I DON'T SELL MYSELF AS
SOME SORT OF CRITIC, BUT..."

"I HAVE TO APOLOGIZE

"BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE

"DO ASK ME TO WORK WITH THEM.

"THEY REALLY DO.

"BUT NOT FOR ME
TO SHOW THEM MY WORK.

"IT'S THAT THEY WANT HELP WITH

"AN AUDITION THAT
THEY'RE PUTTING TOGETHER.

"SOMETHING LIKE THAT,
THEY'LL COME TO ME

"AND ASK ME TO FIX
THEIR AUDITION,

"TWEAK IT A LITTLE BIT,
FIX THEM UP.

THAT KIND OF WORK."

"RITA COREY.
DO YOU KNOW WHO RITA COREY IS?

"RITA COREY WOULD COME
TO ME QUITE OFTEN.

"SHE WAS AT GALLAUDET.

"AND SHE WOULD BE DOING SONGS
OR WHAT HAVE YOU

AND I WOULD HELP HER
WITH REFINING HER PRODUCT."

"BUT OTHERS...WELL,
IN FACT, SEVERAL,

"SEVERAL PEOPLE
WHO AUDITIONED

"FOR THE FILM 'CHILDREN OF
A LESSER GOD' ASKED ME FOR HELP.

"MARLEE MATLIN DIDN'T ASK ME.

"SHE DIDN'T ASK
FOR MY HELP,

"BUT THERE WERE SEVERAL OTHERS
WHO WERE MY KIDS

"WHO DID AUDITION,
AND I PREPARED THEM

FOR THEIR AUDITION FOR THAT."

[LAUGHTER]

"TERRYLENE.
TERRYLENE WAS ONE OF

"THE FINALISTS FOR THAT ROLE.

"'CHILDREN OF A LESSER GOD.'

"THINGS GOT NARROWED DOWN
TO JUST 3 OR 4.

"THEN THERE WERE ONLY TWO,

"AND TERRYLENE WAS THE THIRD.

"THEN IT CAME DOWN TO THESE TWO,

AND THEN MARLEE MATLIN
GOT THE PART."

KENNY SAYS, "I'M STILL
HAMMERING AWAY AT THIS ONE IDEA

THAT I WANT
TO GET YOU TO ANSWER."

"IF YOU WENT TO NEW YORK CITY
IN 1939, 1940,

"WOULD YOU HAVE SEEN DEAF PEOPLE
PERFORMING POETRY AT THAT TIME,

IN THE COMMUNITY?"

MALZ SAYS,
"YEAH, WELL, HOLD ON.

"YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THE FACT

"THAT THERE WAS A GAP

"BETWEEN DEAF COMMUNITIES,

"BETWEEN GALLAUDET
AND THE OTHER DEAF COMMUNITY

"OR GRASSROOTS DEAF COMMUNITY.

"IN SOME PLACES,
THEY WOULD NOT HAVE

"ANYTHING TO DO WITH
PEOPLE FROM GALLAUDET.

IN FACT, WHEN I WENT
TO NEW YORK CITY TO ACT..."

"I WAS IN
'ARSENIC AND OLD LACE,'

"AND WHEN I GOT THERE,
THE NEW YORK CITY DEAF CLUB

"WAS COLD AS ICE TO ME.

"THEY HAD NO USE.

"WHEN WE SHOWED UP,

THEY ACTUALLY
ASKED US TO LEAVE."

"AND THE CLUB ITSELF,
THE CLUB ITSELF ACTUALLY

"DID HAVE STRONG ACTORS

"AS MEMBERS,

"GOOD SIGNING, GOOD POETRY.

"YES, THEY DID.

"IN FACT, ONE OF THE
BEST-KNOWN, WELL-KNOWN ACTORS,

"AND THAT WAS
BERNARD BRAGG'S FATHER.

"AND I'M SURE THAT
BERNARD LEARNED

"A LOT OF HIS TECHNIQUES
FROM HIM.

"PROBABLY DID.

"AND HE SIGNED ASL POETRY.
HE SURELY DID.

"AT FIRST, A LOT OF PEOPLE

"DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS,

"BUT HE CREATED THIS.

"HE DIDN'T WORK
FROM A WRITTEN SCRIPT.

"AND HE WOULD SIGN LIKE THIS

"IF HE WAS SHOWING
WATER ON A SHORE,

SHOWING THE WAVES
LAPPING VERY SLOWLY."

"JUST REALLY BEAUTIFUL,
BEAUTIFUL MOVEMENT.

"THAT WAS BERNARD BRAGG'S DAD.
WAY BACK.

"SO, BERNARD'S FATHER, YOU NEVER
KNEW ABOUT--ABOUT HIS FATHER?

"OH, BOY.

"WELL, HE HAD A COMPANY
OF ACTORS AT THE TIME.

"I NEVER SAW THEM,

"BUT I HEARD THAT

"THEY WERE PRETTY SUCCESSFUL,

"AND HE WROTE PLAYS, TOO.

"HE WROTE PLAYS
THAT THEY PUT ON,

"AND HE WROTE THINGS FOR NTD,

"AND THEN BERNARD BRAGG
WAS IN THOSE PLAYS.

BERNARD WROTE PLAYS ALSO."

MATTHEW SAYS, "IF THERE
WAS A TIME WARP

"AND YOU COULD GO BACK
TO 1939 OR 1940,

"DO YOU THINK
THAT HEARING PEOPLE

"WOULD EVEN BOTHER TO GO SEE

DEAF POETRY PERFORMED
AT THE TIME?"

MALZ SAYS, "PROBABLY NOT."

"WELL, WHEN I WAS IN NEW YORK,

"THERE WAS A WRITER WHO SAID

"THAT THIS PRODUCTION
WAS THE FIRST TIME

"THAT DEAF PEOPLE
WERE SEEN IN PUBLIC

"ON THE STAGE IN BROADWAY.

"IN PUBLIC. OK?

"SO, IN TERMS OF THE CLUBS,

"I MEAN, HEARING PEOPLE DIDN'T
GO TO THE CLUBS AT THE TIME.

"SIGN LANGUAGE HADN'T
PROLIFERATED AT THE TIME.

"NOW EVERYBODY
WANTS TO LEARN IT.

"BUT BACK THEN, THE ONLY PEOPLE

"WHO WOULD LEARN SIGN WERE
PEOPLE WHO HAD DEAF PARENTS.

"THERE WERE NO CLASSES OFFERED.

"NOBODY HAD ANY INTEREST.

"NOW THERE'S SO MANY CLASSES.
PEOPLE SAY,

"'WHERE'S THE BEST PLACE
TO GO LEARN?'

"AND, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW
THE ANSWER IS ALWAYS

"TO GO TO THE DEAF CLUB,

"AND, OF COURSE, THEN THEY
FALL IN LOVE WITH IT

"AND THEY SHOW UP, BUT BEFORE WE
DIDN'T HAVE ANY OF THAT,

SO, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE COME."

MATTHEW SAYS, "WELL, HOW DO YOU
FEEL TODAY ABOUT,

"LIKE, PETER AND OTHER
YOUNG DEAF POETS,

"THEY HAVE THEIR TECHNIQUES,
THEY HAVE THEIR STYLES.

"WHAT DO YOU THINK
ABOUT THE WORK YOU'RE SEEING

FROM THEM THESE DAYS?"

MALZ SAYS, "I THINK IT'S GREAT.

"IT'S WONDERFUL,
BUT I HAVE TO SAY

I'M A LITTLE UNCOMFORTABLE."

"I'M A LITTLE BOTHERED INSIDE.

"LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

"RITA COREY,
WHO I MENTIONED BEFORE,

"SHE IS AN EXCELLENT SIGNER,

"BUT I KEEP GETTING ON HER CASE

"AND SAYING, 'OK, GREAT.

"'FINE. I CAN SEE YOUR SIGN,
BUT I WANT TO SEE YOU ACT.

"'I WANT TO SEE
MORE ACTING FROM YOU.

"'YOU NEED TO DEVELOP YOURSELF

"'AND BE ABLE TO SHOW
WHAT'S INSIDE YOU.

"'ON STAGE, IN PLAYS
AND WHAT HAVE YOU,

"'YOU KNOW,
YOU'RE NOT DOING IT.

"'AND IN POETRY, TOO, YOU NEED

"TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT.'

"AND WHAT I THINK ABOUT PETER
IS THE SAME THING.

"I WANT TO SEE MORE ACTING.

"THE POETRY'S FINE.

"THE POETRY IS
ACTUALLY BEAUTIFUL.

"IT'S GREAT.

"OK, NOW I WANT TO SEE YOU

"GROW AS A TOTAL, COMPLETE
PERFORMER PACKAGE.

I WANT TO SEE
THE ACTING DEVELOP."

PETER SAYS,
"THAT'S INTERESTING."

MATTHEW SAYS, "WELL, THERE'S
SOME POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT

"ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP
OF POETRY AND ASL.

"SOME DEAF PEOPLE THINK IT CAN
ONLY BELONG TO ENGLISH

"AND ASL CAN'T CREATE
ITS OWN POETRY.

"TO WHICH OTHER PEOPLE SAY,
'NO, OF COURSE IT CAN.'

"SO, THIS IS BASED ON THEIR
EXPERIENCE WITH ENGLISH, SO,

"I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT
YOUR THOUGHTS ARE ABOUT THAT.

"WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT
THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE?

"BECAUSE IT'S A REALLY HOT TOPIC
RIGHT NOW AMONG

"FOLKS LIKE PETER, OTHER PEOPLE

"LOOKING AT EACH OTHER
AND SAYING,

"'MY TECHNIQUE, MY WAY.
THIS IS ASL, THIS ISN'T,'

"BUT WHO'S THE AUTHORITY?

WHO'S THE GOD OF ASL POETRY,
IF YOU WILL?"

MALZ SAYS, "THERE IS
NO SUCH THING."

"BUT, BY THE WAY, I MEAN,

"THAT'S EXACTLY
WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH

"OLIVER CASSELL BACK IN
THE DAY, RIGHT?

"THERE WERE PEOPLE
BACK AT THAT TIME,

"YOU KNOW, WHO HAD
WORKED SO, SO HARD

"TO PERFECT THEIR CRAFT,
BUT THEY HAD NO HEART TO IT,

AS I SAID."

"SO, MY PARTICULAR WAY..."

"WAS TO...WELL,
I FELT THAT I COULD--

"I FELT LIKE I COULD TRANSLATE
ANYTHING, ANYTHING.

"NOW, OTHER PEOPLE
COULDN'T NECESSARILY DO THAT.

BUT I FELT THAT I COULD.
I COULD TRANSLATE ANYTHING."

"YOU KNOW, LIKE WATER TO WINE,
WINE TO WATER.

"I COULD JUST KEEP THE BEAUTY
BETWEEN LANGUAGES.

"AND OFTEN, WHEN YOU LOOK
AT THE ENGLISH,

"YOU COULD STILL KEEP IT
EXACTLY THE SAME

"AND IT WOULD BE CLEAR,
AND OTHER TIMES,

"IT WOULDN'T IF YOU
KEPT IT THAT WAY,

"AND THEN YOU WOULD
JUST HAVE TO CHANGE IT.

"YOU'D HAVE TO MAKE WHATEVER
WOULD MAKE IT CLEAR.

"AND SO, I TRULY BELIEVE
IN THE USE OF

ENGLISH, MIME..."

"PHOTOGRAPHY, EVERYTHING.

"EVERY TECHNIQUE,
ANYTHING TO MAKE IT

"AS CLEAR AS I POSSIBLY CAN.

"WHATEVER I NEED, I WANT TO

"POUR IT INTO THE MIX OF THINGS

"AND MAKE A PICTURE.

"AND THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY
CALLED ASL.

"THAT'S CALLED MALZ-S-L.

"I THINK THAT'S
WHAT BOB WAS SAYING.

"SO, I DON'T BUY
INTO THIS IDEA OF LIKE,

"WHO'S RIGHT, WHO'S WRONG,
THIS IS BETTER THAN THAT.

"I JUST DON'T GO THAT WAY.

"I THINK SOMEBODY CAN BE RIGHT,
BUT EVERYBODY COULD.

"WE DON'T NEED THIS SORT OF
WRANGLING ABOUT THAT.

"I WILL ADMIT THAT
I DON'T CARE FOR SEE SIGN,

"EXCEPT FOR ONE SIGN
THAT I TRULY LOVE.

"IT'S THIS ONE.

"'TREE' MADE WITH
THE LETTER 'T.'

"DO YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS?

"WHAT IS THIS SIGN?
DO YOU KNOW?

"NO, NO, NO, NO.
WHAT DO YOU KNOW?

"WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS IS?
NO. OF COURSE,

"YOU THINK IT'S 'TREE.'

"RIGHT. YOU THINK IT'S 'TREE.'

"SEE PEOPLE THINK IT'S 'TREE,'

"TREE. BUT TO ME,
IT'S 'OUTHOUSE.'"

[LAUGHTER]

"'OUTHOUSE.' A BATHROOM
OUT IN THE WOODS, RIGHT?

"HEH HEH. OUTHOUSE.

"SO, SEE PEOPLE
HATE ME FOR THAT.

"THEY REALLY HATE
THAT I DO THAT.

"BUT, I MEAN, YOU KNOW,
I DON'T SIGN PERFECTLY.

"BUT OTHER THAN THAT...

"BUT ANYWAY, ALL SILLINESS
ASIDE, YOU KNOW,

WITH PEOPLE WHO
USE SEE SIGN..."

"THEY DON'T REALIZE WHAT
THEY'RE LOSING, I THINK,

"BY NOT PERFORMING THINGS OR
LEARNING IT IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

"SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY'LL SAY,
'I WILL KILL YOU.'

"OH, MY GOD. KILL.

"ALL RIGHT. I GUESS
YOU COULD INFLECT IT.

"'I WILL KILL YOU!'
I MEAN, YOU COULD

"SIGN IT THAT WAY,
AND MAYBE I'D ACCEPT THAT

"IF YOU ADD A LITTLE
HEART TO IT,

"BUT THE FACIAL
EXPRESSION'S GONE.

"IT'S SO LINEAR.
THERE'S A LOT LOST.

"AND SO, I BELIEVE
IN MARRYING THESE TWO THINGS.

"I THINK THERE NEEDS
TO BE THE SIGNS

"AND THE FACIAL EXPRESSION.

I MEAN, BUT PEOPLE SEPARATE
THAT OUT SOMETIMES."

PETER SAYS, "I SAW SOME KID
AT A SCHOOL LAST YEAR

"WHO WAS A SEE SIGN KID SAYING,

"'LAST FALL,'
USING THE SIGN FOR 'FALL.'

"'LAST FALL I WAS...'

"I COULDN'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT.
'LAST FALL.'

"LIKE, FALLING.
REALLY MADE US LAUGH.

"BUT I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.

THINGS GET LOST
WITH THAT LANGUAGE."

MATTHEW SAYS, "SO...

"YOU DON'T THINK THERE'S
ANY ONE OR TWO PEOPLE

"WHO CAN PUT THEMSELVES UP
AS THE AUTHORITIES

FOR ASL POETRY?"

AND MALZ SAYS, "WELL,
I THINK THAT BERNARD DOES.

"I THINK HE THINKS HE'S
THE AUTHORITY OF EVERYTHING,

"BUT NO, HE'S NOT.

"HE HAD A BIG, STRONG INFLUENCE.

"I MEAN, BRAGG AND I BOTH DID.

BUT DOES THAT MEAN THAT
WE'RE THE GODS OF THIS? NO.

"SOMETIMES, PEOPLE ASK ME,

"'WOW, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE
SUCH AN AUTHORITY ON THIS.

"WHEN DID YOU BECOME THAT?'
AND I'LL ANSWER,

"'WELL, IN 1939, YOU KNOW,
I WAS EITHER CRAZY

"'OR I WAS A GENIUS,

"'AND IF I'M AUTHORITY
BECAUSE OF THAT

"'AND YOU WANT TO CALL ME THAT,
THAT'S FINE,

"'BUT I DON'T CLAIM
THAT NAME FOR MYSELF

AND I CERTAINLY DON'T
SELL MYSELF AS THAT.'"

"I'M THE AUTHORITY
AS A PERSON WHO

"CAN LOOK AT THINGS,
BUT I DON'T VOLUNTEER THAT,

AND I DON'T SAY THAT
THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I CLAIM.

"I MEAN, YOU MIGHT
SAY THAT ABOUT ME.

"SOMEBODY ELSE MIGHT SAY THAT
ABOUT ME,

"BUT I DON'T SAY THAT ABOUT ME.

I DON'T THINK
IT'S MY PLACE TO."

SO, PETER SAYS, "BEFORE, THERE
WAS THIS VERY FORMALISTIC SIGN,

"AND THEN YOU HAD
A REAL BREAKTHROUGH

"AND PEOPLE WERE
JUST AMAZED AT THAT,

"AND YOU COULD SAY

"YOUR INFLUENCE STARTED
FROM THAT POINT,

"BUT IF YOU WERE TO LOOK AT
A TIMELINE IN FRONT OF YOU

"AND YOU SEE THE INFLUENCE
THAT YOU EXERTED

"AND HOW THAT CARRIED FORWARD--

"THEN THERE WAS BERNARD BRAGG
WITH HIS TECHNICAL ASPECTS,

"WHO WOULD YOU SAY WERE

THE NEXT GENERATIONS
AFTER THAT?"

MALZ SAYS, "I DON'T KNOW,
MAYBE YOU, PETER."

PETER SAYS, "NO, NO, NO,
BEFORE ME, BEFORE ME.

I'M TALKING ABOUT, LIKE,
IN THE FIFTIES AND SIXTIES."

MALZ SAYS, "NTD WAS."
PETER SAYS, "NTD?"

MALZ SAYS, "YES, NTD. NTD WAS.

"THEY WERE CONSIDERED
THE AUTHORITY TO MOST PEOPLE

BUT MOSTLY FOR HEARING PEOPLE."

SO PETER SAYS, "IN TERMS
OF THE STYLE OF SIGNING?"

MALZ SAYS, "WELL, OK. I'LL TELL
YOU SOMETHING HERE."

"THERE WAS A FAMOUS CRITIC
NAMED SHERIDAN BACK IN THE DAY

"FOR BROADWAY.

OK, KEEP THAT IN MIND."

"HE WAS THE TOP CRITIC

"FOR NEW YORK CITY FOR BROADWAY.

"WE WENT THERE, AND HE SAW US,
AND THIS WAS BACK IN THE DAY.

"ALL RIGHT? HE WAS ONE OF
THE TOP CRITICS.

"NOW, HE SAW OUR PLAY OF
'ARSENIC AND OLD LACE.'

"AND HIS RESPONSE
WAS, 'GALLAUDET WILL BE BACK

"EVERY YEAR ON BROADWAY.'

"AND THEN I GRADUATED, AND THERE
WAS NOBODY FOLLOWING UP

"TO MAKE THAT PUSH AND GET THAT
INITIATION GOING.

"AND BERNARD BRAGG DIDN'T DO IT.

"SO I WAS THE ONLY ONE
WHO REALLY HAD THAT GUMPTION.

"YOU KNOW, I DOVE INTO IT,
AND I TOLD PEOPLE,

"'LET'S FIGHT FOR IT.
LET'S DO IT.'

AND I MADE IT HAPPEN,
BUT I WAS THE ONLY ONE."

"NOW, YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS
PASSED,

AND THEN NTD WAS
FINALLY FOUNDED."

"AND, OF COURSE, PEOPLE SAW THEM
ACT AND SAW THEIR PRODUCTIONS,

"AND THEY DID A PRODUCTION OF
'JABBERWOCKY' WITH JOE VELEZ.

"AND, AGAIN,
ONE OF THE TOP CRITICS

"AT THAT TIME SAW THIS

"AND WROTE IN THE NEWSPAPER,

"'JABBERWOCKY' IS THE KEY

TO THE FUTURE."

"NOW, I CREATED THAT IN 1939.

"AND NOW HERE WE ARE, NTD,
COMING ALONG IN WHATEVER,

"1967-68--WHATEVER,
HOW MANY YEARS LATER?--

"AND FINE. I STARTED THAT,
BUT I WAS DOING OTHER THINGS

"BY THAT TIME.

I'VE GONE ON AND MOVED ON
TO OTHER AREAS."

PETER RESPONDS TO SOMETHING
THAT MATTHEW AND KENNY SAID.

KENNY SAYS, "WELL, I READ IN
'HARPER'S'--THE MAGAZINE.

"AND IT WAS TALKING ABOUT
ENGLISH WRITTEN LANGUAGE POETS.

"AND THEY SAID THAT BACK IN
THE 1920s,

"THEY WOULD SAY THAT THE POETRY
OF THE 1900s,

"OR THE TURN OF THE CENTURY,

"WAS MUCH BETTER THAN
THE CURRENT DAY,

"WHICH WAS IN 1920.

"20 YEARS LATER, IN 1940,
THEY WOULD LOOK BACK

"TO THE POETRY OF THE 1920s,
AND SAY,

"'OH, THAT WAS SO MUCH BETTER
THAN WHAT WE'RE PRODUCING NOW.'

"AND SO IT SEEMS THAT EVERY
20 YEARS,

"THE CRITICS WOULD LOOK AT
THE POETRY FROM 20 YEARS BEFORE

"AND CRITICIZE THE THINGS THAT
WERE GOING ON IN THEIR OWN DAY

"AND LAUD AS SUPERIOR THE THINGS
FURTHER BACK.

"IN THE SIXTIES, ALLEN GINSBERG
CAME ALONG,

"AND SOME PEOPLE LOOKED
ASKANCE AT HIM,

"AND SO NOW HERE WE ARE
IN THE EIGHTIES.

"AND PEOPLE MIGHT THINK THAT

"THINGS ARE GOING WELL OR NOT,

"AND I JUST WANT TO BRING
THAT FORWARD

AND SEE WHAT YOU THINK
OF THAT."

AND SO PETER SAYS, "DO YOU
THINK THAT HAPPENED THEN,

"THAT PEOPLE SAID, 'OH, YOU
KNOW, LOOKING AT HOW DEAF POETRY

"'WAS PRODUCED, HOW WE SIGNED IT
EARLIER WAS MUCH BETTER,

"AND NOW WE'RE NOT
DOING AS WELL'?

"DO YOU THINK THAT THERE'S
THE SAME THING HAPPENING

"WITH THE WAY PEOPLE LOOK AT
MAYBE ELLA AND VALLI PERHAPS,

"EVEN, LOOKING AT THEIR WORK?

"YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LOOK AT
MALZ AND GOLLADAY.

"OOPS. I'M WRONG ABOUT THAT,
RIGHT? HE DIDN'T SIGN.

"HE WROTE IT--GOLLADAY?

"LOWMAN? WAS LOWMAN WRITTEN
OR SIGNED?

"WOW. THIS IS HARD, RIGHT?

"SOME OF THEM WERE WRITTEN,
AND SOME WERE SIGNED.

FOLTZ? IS THAT RIGHT? I'M TRYING
TO GET THE NAMES RIGHT.

THIS IS REALLY DIFFICULT."

MALZ SAID, "YOU HAVE TO NOT
CONFUSE THE TWO

"BECAUSE ONLY SOME PEOPLE
WERE WRITING

AND SOME PEOPLE WERE SIGNING."

PETER SAYS, "OK. RIGHT. BUT I
GUESS THE POINT IS THAT MAYBE

"PEOPLE DOWN THE ROAD
WOULD LOOK BACK

"AT WHAT'S BEING PRODUCED NOW
AND THINK IT'S BETTER

"THAN YOU YOURSELVES DO.

"IF YOU LOOK AT PATRICK GRAYBILL
AND HIS TIMELINE,

"YOU MIGHT LOOK AT THE PEOPLE
BEFORE HIM

"AND THINK THEY WERE BETTER THAN
THE TIME HE'S PRODUCING.

"DID THE SAME THING HAPPEN WITH
DEAF POETS

"THAT SEEMED TO BE HAPPENING
WITH HEARING POETS

"AND THEIR ASSESSMENT
OF THEIR SKILLS

AND THEIR TALENTS?"

THE VIDEOGRAPHER'S ASKING
A QUESTION THAT WE CAN'T SEE.

MALZ SAYS, "OK."

"I HAVE TO ACCEPT
PARTIAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR NTD

"BECAUSE I TRANSLATED MOST OF
THOSE PLAYS MYSELF.

I WAS TRYING TO BE CREATIVE."

"WELL, FOR EXAMPLE..."

"IF YOU SIGNED 'PUMPKIN,' OK?

"IS THAT A STANDARD SIGN
ALL OVER THE U.S.?

"DOES EVERYBODY KNOW THE SIGN
'PUMPKIN'?

"SO I WOULD USE THE SIGN,

"BUT THEN I'D ALSO EMBODY
A PUMPKIN

"AND BECOME A PUMPKIN-HEAD.

"I WOULD ADD ALL THESE DIFFERENT
FEATURES TO IT,

"AND SOME DEAF PEOPLE WERE

"COMPLETELY LOST WHEN I DID

"SOMETHING LIKE THAT OR HAD

"THE ACTORS DO

"SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

SO I TWEAKED THINGS."

"THERE WAS ONE PLAY
I TRANSLATED

"THAT WAS CALLED 'THE CRITIC.'

"THAT WAS THE TITLE OF IT.

"IT'S A VERY OLD PLAY
BY SHERIDAN,

"AN OLDER PLAYWRIGHT.

"BUT, ANYWAY, THAT PLAY HAS

"A POEM WITHIN IT WHERE THERE'S
7 BIRDS

AND A POEM WITH 7 FLOWERS."

"AND SO WHEN I TRANSLATED IT,

"I DIDN'T WANT TO JUST SAY
'RED FLOWERS, BLUE FLOWERS.'

"AND YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

"THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANY PIZZAZZ
TO IT.

"I WANTED TO ADD MY PARTICULAR
MARK.

"SO I HAD FLOWERS, AND I CREATED

DIFFERENT HANDSHAPES
FOR THE FLOWERS..."

"A FLOWER LIKE THIS WITH
A CROWN OF PETALS AROUND IT,

"A FLOWER WITH TENDRILS

"AND VINES WRAPPING AROUND IT,

"AND WITH THE BIRDS AS WELL--

"SOME WITH POINTY BEAKS,

"SOME WITH TUFTS OF FEATHERS,

"SOME WITH
CROWNS OF FEATHERS AROUND IT,

"AND SORT OF A MANE--
A SHOCK OF FEATHERS

"ON THE HEAD.

"ALL DIFFERENT SORTS OF THEM.

"SO NOBODY ELSE WAS DOING THAT,

"AND NOBODY WAS USED TO THAT.

"AND SO THE DEAF PEOPLE WERE
PRETTY MUCH TAKEN ABACK BY IT.

"I LEFT NTD,

"AND CHANGES OCCURRED.

"AND THEY STARTED PICKING THESE
WEIRD PLAYS TO PERFORM,

"LIKE, LET'S SEE--

"3 STAGES AND 4 ACTS
OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT,

"I THINK.

"AND THE ENGLISH
DIDN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE.

"SO THE SIGNING WAS EVEN WORSE.

"YOU COULDN'T FOLLOW IT.

"PEOPLE WERE JUST
COMPLETELY LOST.

"YOU MIGHT GET THE BEAUTY
OF THE SIGN.

"IT LOOKED PRETTY,

"BUT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE
JUST WEREN'T USED TO THIS.

"AND SO THOSE CHANGES OCCURRED.

"AND NOW IT'S MORE AND MORE
SIMPLIFIED, I THINK.

"THEY CUT THINGS OUT,
WHICH I DID NOT PERMIT.

"I WOULDN'T CUT ANYTHING OUT
OF A SCRIPT.

"I WOULD JUST GET CREATIVE
WITH A SCRIPT,

"BUT IT'S VERY DIFFERENT NOW.

"I LOOK BACK, AND I REMEMBER
SEEING

"THESE BEAUTIFUL PLAYS,

"BUT THERE'S NOT SO MUCH ANYMORE

"THAN WHAT USED TO BE.

"I MEAN, I'M JUST
SO FRUSTRATED WITH NTD.

"I REALLY AM,
WITH THEIR CHOICE OF PLAYS.

"I WANT TO SEE
'DEATH OF A SALESMAN.'

"YOU KNOW? YOU KNOW?

"I THINK THEY UNDERSTAND IT.

"I THINK PEOPLE WOULD BE ABLE
TO DO IT

"WHAT'S THIS 3 STAGES
WITH 3 ACTS STUFF?

"IT'S JUST TERRIBLE.

"THAT'S JUST CRAPPY.
IT'S BULLSHIT.

"IT GETS ME SO MAD.

"AND SO THAT'S ONE
OF THE REASONS I LEFT NTD WAS

THEIR CHOICES OF PLAYS."

MATTHEW SAID, "NTD GENERALLY
IS SKEWED

"TOWARDS HEARING AUDIENCES

"AND NOT SO MUCH FOR DEAF
AUDIENCES.

"AND SO HOW DO WE PRESERVE
THE BEAUTY OF ASL?

"THERE ARE NO OTHER COMPANIES

"THAT ARE TRYING TO PRESERVE ASL
IN ITS PURITY.

"THERE'S NTD, WHICH IS UNDER
CONTROL OF A HEARING DIRECTOR,

"AND THE DEAF AUDIENCES
DON'T NECESSARILY UNDERSTAND

"WHAT THEY'RE DOING ON STAGE.

WHAT CAN WE DO TO RECTIFY THAT?"

MALZ SAID, "WELL, THERE IS
ANOTHER COMPANY.

"THERE'S FAIRMOUNT THEATER
OF THE DEAF.

"AND THERE'S A NEW ONE, I THINK,
IN NEW YORK

"THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE GETTING
GOING SOON, I THINK.

"I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING
LIKE THAT.

SOMETHING. SOMETHING NEW?"

THE VIDEOGRAPHER'S SAYING
SOMETHING.

PETER'S SHADOWING IT, SAYING,
"IT SEEMS LIKE THINGS START

"AND STOP, AND THEY TRY
TO GET GOING,

"BUT THEN THEY FOLD VERY
QUICKLY.

THERE WAS ONE IN BURBANK,
I THINK OR..."

MALZ SAYS, "WELL, IT JUST
DEPENDS.

"UNLESS, UNLESS YOU ARE
FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO GET

"A REALLY HUGE GRANT
IN THE SAME WAY THAT NTD DID.

"AND THEN HAVING THAT
CONTINUAL FUNDING WOULD ASSURE

THAT IT WOULD KEEP GOING."

MATTHEW SAYS, "I'M ASKING
YOUR OPINION.

"I'D LIKE YOUR POINT OF VIEW.

"DO YOU OFTEN FIND IT'S TRUE
THAT THE DEAF COMMUNITY IS

"NOT NECESSARILY COHESIVE,

"THEY'RE NOT UNIFIED?

"THERE'S A LOT OF GOSSIP
AND BACKSTABBING

"AND PULLING EACH OTHER DOWN?

"I SEE THAT NOW, AND I WONDER IF
THAT WAS THE CASE

WHEN YOU WERE YOUNGER, TOO."

"WELL, IT'S RARE, BUT I THINK
WITH ANY SMALL GROUP

"THAT'S RELATIVELY HOMOGENOUS IS

"GOING TO HAVE THAT OCCUR.

SAME IN
HEARING COMMUNITIES AS WELL."

"THERE'S ALWAYS GOSSIP.

"IN FACT, I WANT TO TELL YOU
SOMETHING.

"MY WIFE FAINTED

"IN THE STORE ONE DAY.

"AND I GOT HER HOME,

"AND THE NEXT DAY, A NEIGHBOR

"TOLD ME THAT MY WIFE
WAS PREGNANT

"AND WE WERE GONNA HAVE A BABY.

"BEFORE I KNEW IT,
THE NEIGHBOR KNEW IT.

"AND THEY WERE THE ONES
WHO TOLD ME.

"AND THE REASON WAS IT WAS

"THE DOCTOR WHO TOLD EVERYBODY

"IN THIS SMALL TOWN

"THAT MY WIFE WAS PREGNANT."

KENNY SAYS, "OK, SO TODAY,
IT SEEMS LIKE

"IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO FIND
DEAF COMMUNITY SUPPORT

"FOR SO MANY THINGS--
ALMOST ANYTHING, REALLY.

"AND IT SEEMS LIKE
IF YOU WANT SUPPORT,

YOU HAVE TO FIND IT THROUGH
THE HEARING COMMUNITY INSTEAD."

MATTHEW SAYS, "THAT'S RIGHT."

AND KENNY SAYS, "SO WAS THAT
THE CASE BACK IN THE DAY?"

MALZ SAYS,
"YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER,

"WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY TVs
BACK THEN. WE DIDN'T HAVE VCRs.

"WHAT WE HAD WERE
THE DEAF CLUBS.

"AND YOU WOULD GO TO
THE DEAF CLUBS.

"AND AT THE CLUB, THERE WERE
SHOWS.

"I DIRECTED SHOWS THERE.

"THERE WAS POETRY THERE,

"AND THERE WERE THINGS GOING ON
THERE.

"BUT NOW THE CLUBS ARE
SHRINKING, AND THEY'RE CLOSING.

SO THERE ARE FEWER THAN
THERE USED TO BE. VCRs."

KENNY SAYS, "VCRs, YOU THINK,

ARE RUINING THE DEAF CLUB
CULTURE?"

MALZ SAYS, "WELL, SOME PEOPLE

BACK THEN COULDN'T AFFORD
A MOVIE PROJECTOR."

"BUT THEY'D HEAR THERE WAS GONNA
BE A MOVIE SHOWN AT THE CLUB.

AND SO THEY WOULD GO TO
THE DEAF CLUB AND WATCH MOVIES."

KENNY SAYS, "DO YOU FEEL

"THAT TECHNOLOGY

"IS ACTUALLY DESTROYING

"THE UNIFICATION OF
THE DEAF COMMUNITY?

IF SO, WHAT CAN WE DO
ABOUT THAT?"

MALZ SAYS, "GO BACK IN TIME.

GO GET A HORSE AND BUGGY."

[LAUGHTER]

THERE'S A COMMENT OFF-CAMERA
FROM THE VIDEOGRAPHER.

SOME OF THIS COMMENT HAD TO DO

WITH THE VIDEOGRAPHER,
ERNEST MARSHALL,

AND THAT TECHNOLOGY WAS GOING
TO BE USED TO TAKE FORWARD

HIS WORK SO PEOPLE COULD SEE
WHAT HE FILMED.

MALZ SAYS, "WELL, I WAS IN
CALIFORNIA.

I WAS WORKING WITH PETER WOLF."

PETER SAYS, "HE'S A FILMMAKER,
RIGHT?"

MALZ SAID, "YES. BACK
IN CALIFORNIA, JONATHAN ROMAN

"AND PETER WOLF AND I SET UP,
LIKE, A CORPORATION.

"AND WE DID A LOT OF DIFFERENT
PROJECTS.

"WE FOCUSED PRIMARILY ON
THE NEWS,

"AND WE HAD, LIKE, A NEWSCAST.

"THE TWO OF THEM WOULD ACT
AS THE NEWSMEN,

"BECAUSE THEY WERE MUCH MORE
HANDSOME THAN I EVER WAS.

"I STAYED OUT OF THAT.

"I'D STAY AWAY FROM THAT.
I WORKED BEHIND THE SCENES.

"IF IT WERE YOU, YOU KNOW,
YOU MIGHT WANT TO DO IT,

"OR SOMEBODY ELSE, BUT I WOULD
GET OUT OF THAT.

"OTHER PEOPLE REALLY WANTED
THAT KIND OF ROLE,

"BUT THOSE GUYS WERE
BETTER FRIENDS,

AND THEY LOOKED BETTER
ON SCREEN THAN I DID."

"SO I WORKED WITH THEM
BEHIND THE SCENES.

"I HELPED OUT.

"AND WE DID A LOT OF DIFFERENT
PROJECTS.

"BUT THEN I WAS HIRED BY MSSD,
SO I LEFT THE COMPANY.

"AND EVERYBODY SORT OF WENT
THEIR SEPARATE WAYS,

"AND THE COMPANY FOLDED.

"BUT, YOU KNOW, PETER WENT ON
TO STUDY FILMMAKING

"AT TWO DIFFERENT COLLEGES,

"AND HE DID SEEM
TO DO PRETTY WELL.

HE'S MADE FILMS, BUT..."

"I DIDN'T SEE THE LATEST FILM
THAT HE MADE,

"AND I JUST WANT TO SAY YOU DO
HAVE TO START

"WITH A GOOD SCRIPT.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE A GOOD SCRIPT."

MATTHEW SAID,
"BUT THAT'S DIFFICULT.

"THAT'S WHAT'S HARD. NOT
EVERYBODY'S GOOD AT ENGLISH.

"THERE ARE SO FEW
DEAF SCREENWRITERS

WHO CAN WRITE A DECENT
ENGLISH SCRIPT."

AND MALZ SAYS,
"WELL, THEN FIND THOSE FEW

"AND ASK THEM
TO WRITE THE SCRIPT.

"I'VE BEEN ASKED TO WRITE
SCRIPTS.

"IF YOU CAN'T DO IT YOURSELF,
ASK ME, ASK SOMEBODY ELSE.

"I CAN DO EVERYTHING.

"I CAN WRITE SCRIPTS,
AND I'VE DONE THAT.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?"

MATTHEW SAYS, "WELL, WE IN
THE DEAF COMMUNITY HAVE

"A VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEM WITH
THE IDEA OF 'WE.'

IT'S MORE ME, ME, ME--
AND NEVER WE--AN ATTITUDE."

MALZ SAYS,
"WELL, THAT'S WHAT I MEAN

"ABOUT THE FRIENDS
THAT YOU MAKE.

"SO I WROTE A SERIOUS PLAY
FOR BROADWAY A LONG TIME AGO.

"IT WAS ABOUT A DEAF MAN WITH
A HEARING WIFE,

"AND I SENT THIS PLAY OFF
TO DIFFERENT AGENTS.

"AND I WAS TOLD 'NO, NO, NO' BY
EVERYBODY.

"NO INTEREST IN DEAF CHARACTERS
OR ANYTHING AT THAT TIME.

"I DID GET ONE YES.

"AND THIS WAS FROM THE ACTRESS
BEATRICE STRAIGHT.

"SHE WAS A VERY FAMOUS BROADWAY
ACTRESS AT THE TIME,

"AND MOVIES AS WELL.

"SHE NEVER DID GET
THE STARRING ROLE.

"SHE WAS NEVER
PICKED FOR THE STARRING ROLE

"IN EITHER OF THOSE, BUT SHE WAS
PRETTY PROLIFIC.

"AND SHE SAID TO ME,
'I HAVE TO GO TO EUROPE,

"'BUT WHEN I COME BACK,
I WILL GET HOLD OF YOU

"AS SOON AS I TOUCH DOWN.'

"I WAS THRILLED.

"THIS WAS 1950, AND I'M

"STILL WAITING TO HEAR FROM HER.

"YOU KNOW, THEY JUST THROW

"THESE THINGS IN A DRAWER,

"AND THEN THEY GO ON TO OTHER
PLAYS.

"NOW, THE FUNNY THING IS, THAT
WAS THE FIRST PLAY THAT I WROTE.

"AND THAT HAD A DEAF CHARACTER,
AND I NEVER HAD IT PRODUCED.

"IT NEVER WENT
ON STAGE ANYWHERE.

"BUT I WROTE ABOUT, LET'S SEE,
6 OTHER PLAYS AFTER THAT

"THAT I WOULD CALL JUNK
TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH.

"NO DEAF CHARACTERS IN IT, BUT
ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN PRODUCED

"IN DIFFERENT PLACES.

"IN FACT, SWEDEN, ONE OF THEM,
PUT THEM ON STAGE.

"SO WHAT I THINK I SHOULD DO NOW
IS GO BACK TO MY FIRST PLAY

"AND FIX IT UP A LITTLE BIT
AND GIVE IT ANOTHER TRY

BECAUSE THERE'S A NEW MARKET
NOW THAN THERE USED TO BE."

"YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO KNOW
WHO'S IN THE ACTING WORLD,

"WHO YOU WOULD PICK TO BE
THE LEADS IN IT,

KNOW WHO'S AVAILABLE."

MATTHEW SAID, "I WISH THERE WAS
A WAY TO SET UP A DEAF NETWORK

"FOR TV, MOVIES, PLAYS,
POETRY, PRODUCTION--

"A DEAF NETWORK, A CENTER,
WHERE EVERYBODY TOGETHER

"COULD HASH OUT WHAT TO DO
BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, I FEEL LIKE

"EVERYTHING'S SO FACTIONALIZED.

"WE'RE ALL IN OUR SEPARATE,
DIFFERENT AREAS.

"AND I THINK THAT IT HURTS
THE DEAF COMMUNITY

"WHEN WE'RE SO DIVIDED.

"DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE
A GOOD IDEA

"TO HAVE SOME SORT OF
DEAF NETWORK

OR SOME WAY TO DO THIS?"

MALZ SAYS, "I DO THINK IT WOULD
BE A GOOD IDEA. I DO.

"NTD WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THAT.

"THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO PROVIDE
THAT AS WELL AS BE A THEATER.

"AND THEY WERE VERY ACTIVE,
ACTUALLY, IN NETWORKING

"AND RECOMMENDING ACTORS FOR
DIFFERENT SORTS OF PROJECTS

"FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

"YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT? OH, YEAH.

THEY'VE BEEN DOING THAT FOR
A LONG TIME."

MATTHEW SAID, "I KNEW THEY DID
THAT FOR A WHILE,

BUT I THOUGHT
THAT THEY STOPPED."

MALZ SAID, "WELL, THEY USED TO
BE VERY ACTIVELY RECRUITING.

"I USED TO DO IT ON MY OWN
AT MSSD,

"BUT THEN I'VE GOT OTHER PEOPLE
HELPING ME,

"AND THERE'S ANOTHER
DIRECTOR I'VE WORKED WITH

"FOR THE PAST FEW YEARS.

"AND WE VERY ACTIVELY
DO THAT, TOO.

"WE MAKE A LOT OF CONTACTS FOR
PEOPLE AND NETWORK.

"I'VE BEEN INVOLVED

WITH THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT
FOR THE ARTS FOR A LONG TIME."

PETER SAYS, "WHAT IS IT THAT
YOU DO FOR THEM?"

MALZ SAYS, "I DO A LOT
OF READING OF PLAYS

"THAT ARE WRITTEN
BY DISABLED PEOPLE,

"AND HELP TO DETERMINE
WHICH PLAYS SHOULD GO FORWARD.

"I'VE BEEN INVOLVED WITH THAT.

"JEAN KENNEDY SMITH, IF YOU'RE
FAMILIAR WITH HER,

"SHE'S INVOLVED IN THAT.

"SHE GIVES THE STAMP
OF APPROVAL, OF COURSE,

"BUT I MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS
TO HER.

"THAT'S THE WAY THOSE
PARTICULAR PLAYS ARE CHOSEN.

"I'VE ALSO BEEN INVOLVED

"IN THE WASHINGTON, D.C.,
COMMISSION FOR THE ARTS.

"AND THAT INVOLVES GRANT MONIES
FOR THE WASHINGTON, D.C., AREA.

"SO I'VE BEEN INVOLVED WITH
THAT GROUP FOR A WHILE.

"SO I'VE BEEN HELPING IN MY WAYS
BY JOINING THESE DIFFERENT,

VARIOUS AGENCIES AND TRYING TO
CREATE SOME NETWORKS."

MATTHEW SAYS, "IN TERMS OF
THE FLYING WORDS PROJECT,

"THEY'RE STARTING TO GET
OUT THERE,

"AND THEY'RE TRYING
TO EXPOSE PEOPLE

"TO THEIR POETRY
AND TO THE WORK THAT THEY DO.

DO YOU THINK IT'S IMPORTANT
THEY CONTINUE DOING THAT?"

MALZ SAYS, "VERY IMPORTANT, YES.
ABSOLUTELY.

"YOU HAVE TO PROMOTE YOURSELVES.
YOU HAVE TO PROMOTE YOUR WORK.

"YOU KNOW, DEFINITELY.

"IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT, GET AS
MUCH OUT THERE AS POSSIBLE.

"PROMOTE YOURSELVES.
YOU HAVE TO. IT'S THE ONLY WAY.

"YOU KNOW, GET OUT THERE TO
OTHER PLACES

"BECAUSE IT'S NOT OUT THERE TO
THE EXTENT THAT IT SHOULD BE,

"AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE TRIED
AND FAILED AND TRIED AND FAILED.

"THERE USED TO BE
SOMETHING CALLED

THE FROZEN DINNER THEATER."

PETER SAID, "OH, YES!
I REMEMBER THAT."

MALZ SAYS, "I DON'T KNOW

"WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM.

"THEY STOPPED PERFORMING,
AND I DON'T KNOW WHY,

"AND EVERYBODY PROBABLY WENT
THEIR OWN SEPARATE WAYS,

"BUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT
SHOULD BE GOING,

BUT THEY FOLD SO OFTEN."

MATTHEW SAYS, "WHAT DO YOU THINK
OF PETER'S WORK?

HAVE YOU SEEN HIM PERFORM?"

MALZ SAYS, "YES, I DID SEE."

PETER SAID, "DID YOU SEE ME
IN LOS ANGELES OR...?

WHERE WAS IT, BOSTON?"

MALZ SAYS, "I SAW YOU
AT BERKELEY,

"AND YOU WERE WONDERFUL,
JUST WONDERFUL.

"YOU KNOW, I'VE SEEN BRAGG
A LOT. I'VE SEEN YOU.

"BUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU
AND BERNARD BRAGG, AGAIN, IS

"THAT BERNARD JUST POLISHES
THINGS TO DEATH.

"HE REALLY DOES. PETER IS MORE
OF AN INTERNAL POET, I THINK.

"AND AS I SAID BEFORE, THOUGH,
I WANT TO SEE MORE POLISH

"WITH THE ACTING ASPECT BUT NOT
THE EMOTIONAL ASPECT OF IT.

"ALL THAT INTERNAL STUFF.

"IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN
WHAT I MEAN BY THAT.

"LIKE, ONCE MORE WITH FEELING,
YOU KNOW,

"FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE
FAMILIAR WITH THAT.

"AND I THINK, PETER,
YOU'RE JUST ALMOST THERE,

"BUT THEN I HAVE TO SAY,
I'M NEVER SATISFIED.

"I'M NOT SATISFIED WITH MYSELF
OR ANYBODY ELSE.

"I CAN ALWAYS FIND
SOMETHING WRONG.

"I'LL WATCH SOMETHING. I'LL SAY,
'THAT'S REALLY BEAUTIFUL,

"BUT YOU COULD FIX IT THIS WAY.'

"I'D SAY, 'OH, THAT'S GREAT.'

"NO, BUT THERE'S A WORLD OF
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN

"THE WAY BERNARD BRAGG WORKS
AND THE WAY I DO.

LET ME THINK IF I CAN GIVE YOU
AN EXAMPLE..."

[LAUGHTER]

"NO, NO, NO, NO. I DON'T WANT
ANYBODY TO BE OFFENDED.

"BUT I WAS TEACHING AN ARTISTIC
SIGN LANGUAGE WORKSHOP

"AT A COLLEGE IN MICHIGAN
AT ONE POINT.

"I WAS THERE FOR A WEEK.
WELL, 4 DAYS.

"I WAS AN ARTIST IN RESIDENCE.

"AND I WAS TEACHING THIS ONE
CLASS.

"AND THERE WAS A VERY NICE,
BEAUTIFUL YOUNG LADY

"WHO WAS IN THE CLASS,

"AND WE BECAME REALLY GOOD
FRIENDS.

"AND WE SPENT ALL DAY TOGETHER

"UNTIL END OF THE EVENING,

"WHEN IT WAS TIME TO PART AND GO
OUR SEPARATE WAYS TO BED.

"AND SHE WAS TO BE MARRIED
THE FOLLOWING WEEK

"AFTER THIS WORKSHOP.

"IT WAS A VERY EXCITING TIME
FOR HER.

"IT'S INTERESTING TO NOTE,

"THERE WERE A COUPLE OF PEOPLE
IN THE WORKSHOP

"WHO ALSO GOT MARRIED.

"AFTER THIS WORKSHOP,
THEY INVITED US TO THE WEDDING.

"WE ACTUALLY WENT.
IT WAS REALLY NICE.

"ANYWAY, THIS GIRL AND I
ACTUALLY WENT TO THAT WEDDING

"AND ATTENDED IT TOGETHER.

"IT WAS WONDERFUL.

"IT WAS A BEAUTIFUL WEDDING,
OUTSIDE IN THE WOODS.

"REALLY NICE. I THINK MAYBE YOU
EVEN KNOW WHO THIS IS--

"INGRAHAM? YOU KNOW INGRAHAM,
THE INTERPRETER--

"LAST NAME INGRAHAM?
THAT'S WHO GOT MARRIED.

"ANYWAY, SO THIS WORKSHOP WAS

"THE SAME WORKSHOP

"I'VE BEEN TEACHING FOR ABOUT
4 OR 5 YEARS.

"AND THE WAY I WOULD DO THIS WAS

"THAT I WOULD GIVE A POEM OR
A PIECE OF WORK TO SOMEBODY,

AND I'D SAY,
'GO AHEAD AND SIGN THIS.'"

PETER SAYS, "YOU WANT ME TO DO
THIS NOW?"

AND MALZ SAYS, "NO, NO, NO. I'M
JUST SAYING WHAT I WOULD DO.

"I WOULD GIVE THIS TO YOU,
AND I WOULD WATCH YOUR WORK.

"AND I WOULD WATCH
THIS PERSON.

"I'D SAY, 'OK, THAT PART
THERE--THAT PART RIGHT THERE.

"'LET'S JUST TAKE THIS ONE PART
RIGHT THERE,

"AND LET'S WORK ON THIS
PARTICULAR PART.'

"BUT I WOULD NEVER TAKE AWAY
THE ARTISTRY

"THAT WAS THIS PERSON'S
INDIVIDUAL STAMP.

"IT WAS THEIR WORK. IT WASN'T
MY IDEAS. IT WAS THEIR IDEAS.

"I WOULD JUST TAKE IT AND REFINE
IT AND EXPAND UPON IT.

"SO OK. BACK TO MY STORY.

"I WAS WORKING WITH THIS GIRL.

"AND AT THE END OF THE WORKSHOP,
SHE SAID, 'NEXT WEEK, I'M GOING

"TO TAKE A WORKSHOP UNDER BRAGG'

"AT SOME OTHER COLLEGE
SOMEPLACE.

I SAID, 'OH, THAT'S GREAT.
YOU'RE GONNA LEARN A LOT MORE.

"THAT'S VERY EXCITING.'

"SO SHE WENT TO THAT.

"NOW, A COUPLE YEARS LATER,

"I FLEW TO ST. PAUL-MINNEAPOLIS.

"AND I WAS WITH TBI,

"GIVING A PRESENTATION THERE.

"AND SHE WAS INVOLVED WITH
THAT GROUP, TOO.

"SO I MET UP WITH HER AGAIN.
IT WAS SO GREAT TO SEE HER.

"SHE AND HER HUSBAND
CAME TO PICK ME UP.

"WE WENT OUT TO DINNER.
HAD A REALLY GREAT TIME.

"AND I SAID, 'SO HOW WAS THAT
WORKSHOP YOU TOOK WITH BRAGG?

"HOW WAS THAT?'

"SHE SAID, 'IT WAS TERRIBLE,
TERRIBLE.

"ALL HE WANTED US TO DO WAS HIS
IDEAS AND NO ONE ELSE'S.'

"AND THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN US.

IT'S JUST VERY DIFFICULT."

KENNY SAYS, "ARE YOU READY,
VIDEOGRAPHER? OK. PLAY BALL.

PETER, I'M GOING TO PITCH
THE BALL TO YOU."

PETER CATCHES THE BALL.

HE SAID, "OK, I HAVE A QUESTION
I'M GOING TO LOB AT YOU.

"OK, ARE YOU READY?
YOU OK FOR THIS? OK.

"SO WE'RE LOOKING
FOR SOME NEW IDEAS.

"SO WE THOUGHT WE'D DRILL DOWN
TO YOUR CORE

"AND SEE IF YOU COULD GIVE US
SOME NEW INSPIRATION.

"OK. SO YOU BROKE
THE FORMAL SIGNING RULES

"THAT WERE THE BIG DEAL AT
THE TIME,

"AND YOU HAD A LOT OF GUMPTION,

"A LOT OF INTERNAL STUFF
THAT YOU WANTED TO GET OUT.

"BUT I JUST WONDERED,
WHO INFLUENCED YOU?

"WHAT GAVE YOU THAT INSPIRATION

AND THAT IMPETUS TO GO FORWARD?"

MALZ SAYS, "NOBODY."

PETER SAID,
"NO, THERE HAS TO BE.

"THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING
LIKE MOVIES OR IDEAS OR A HERO

"OR SOMETHING--SOMETHING
YOU READ,

"SOMETHING THAT GAVE YOU THE
BRAVERY TO GO AND ATTACK THIS

AND DO THINGS SO DIFFERENTLY."

MALZ SAID, "I WAS INFLUENCED
BY SIGNERS,

"AND I CAN SAY A SIGNER AT
THE SCHOOL FOR THE DEAF

"I WENT TO NAMED
SHANDON McCARTER.

"HE WAS A TEACHER,
AND HE TAUGHT SHOE REPAIR.

"THAT'S WHAT HE DID.
NEVER WENT TO COLLEGE.

"HE WAS AN ACE SHOE REPAIRMAN,
A GREAT COBBLER.

"AND HE GOT HIS VOCATIONAL
LICENSE.

"HIS SIGNING WAS BEAUTIFUL,
JUST BEAUTIFUL,

AND IT HAD A BIG INFLUENCE
ON ME."

PETER SAID, "FOR WHAT?"
MALZ SAID, "FOR STORIES."

PETER SAYS, "SO YOU REALLY
LOOKED UP TO HIM?"

MALZ SAID, "NOT NECESSARILY
AS A PERSON,

BUT HIS STORYTELLING CHOPS,
HIS STYLE OF SIGNING."

KENNY SAID, "WELL, WHAT DID
IT LOOK LIKE?

"DID HE PLAY WITH LANGUAGE?

"LIKE, WHAT DID HE DO EXACTLY?

CAN YOU GIVE US
A LITTLE SNIPPET?"

MALZ SAID, "WELL, THERE WAS
A STORY ABOUT A DETECTIVE

"CALLED GRAY SEAL,
THE GRAY SEAL.

"PEOPLE ALREADY KNEW
WHO THAT WAS.

"THEY KNEW THE STORY.

"AND WHAT HE WOULD DO IS,

"THE GRAY SEAL WOULD GO
TO PLACES,

"AND HE WOULD STEAL THINGS,

"AND HE WOULD DISTRIBUTE THEM
TO THE POOR, LIKE ROBIN HOOD.

"AND HE'D ALWAYS LEAVE A LETTER,
SAYING, 'GRAY SEAL WAS HERE.'

"AND THAT WAS THE STORY.

"AND SO HE WOULD ACT LIKE THIS,
WALKING VERY QUIETLY

"AND HALTINGLY, WITH MATTED HAIR
AND A BEARD,

"LIFTING HIMSELF PAINFULLY UP
TO OPEN A DOOR,

"GET TO THE OTHER SIDE,
CLOSE THE DOOR BEHIND HIM,

"FINALLY BE SAFE,
ALTER HIS APPEARANCE.

"TAKE OFF HIS MASQUERADE.

"YOU KNOW, HE WOULD SIGN
THAT WAY.

"OH, YES, THEN HE GOES TO MEET
SOMEBODY

"AT EXACTLY 9:00 AT NIGHT

"IN THE DARK WITH THE MOONLIGHT
SHIMMERING DOWN UPON HIS FACE.

"AND IN THE DISTANCE, HE SEES
AN APPARITION APPROACHING HIM.

"IT'S A GIRL IN A BEAUTIFUL
DIAPHANOUS GOWN.

"IT SWAYS AS SHE APPROACHES.

"HER HAIR RIFFLES IN THE WIND.

"THEIR HEARTS BEAT AS ONE.

"THEY MEET. THEY EMBRACE.

"YOU KNOW, JUST REALLY,
REALLY BEAUTIFUL.

"IT WAS LIKE DANCE, REALLY.

"DANCE MOVEMENTS

"THE WAY HE WOULD SHOW LIGHTS
FLICKERING ALL AROUND

"AND THE TWO OF THEM WITH THEIR
EYES LOCKED IN AN AMOROUS GAZE.

"SO LATER I TOOK THE STORY,
AND--I ELONGATED IT

"A LITTLE BIT, ADDED
A LITTLE BIT MORE OF MY STYLE,

"BUT HE WAS VERY FORMAL.

"VERY, VERY GOOD THE WAY HE
DID IT.

"AND LATER ON, I DID SEE
ANDY VASNICK PERFORM

"THE SAME GRAY SEAL STORY.

"AND HE WAS REALLY GREAT, TOO.

"I WOULD SAY HE WAS EQUALLY
ADEPT AT IT.

"A VERY SIMILAR WAY OF DOING IT.

YOU KNOW, THE BEST I EVER SAW."

PETER SAID, "ANDY VASNICK?"
MALZ SAID, "YES.

"YOU KNOW, REALLY, BOTH OF THEM
WERE WONDERFUL.

"THERE MAY HAVE BEEN
OTHER PEOPLE WHO PERFORMED

"RENDITIONS OF THE GRAY SEAL,

"BUT THESE WERE THE ONLY TWO
I SAW.

"BUT NOBODY INFLUENCED ME.
NOBODY DID.

"I MEAN, I JUST HAD THIS
FEELING, AND I JUST WENT FOR IT.

"I MEAN, YOU KNOW,
AT ONE POINT, I DECIDED--

"YOU KNOW WHAT I WANTED TO BE?
I WANTED TO BE A VET.

"I WANTED TO BE A VET. NO.

"I DIDN'T ACTUALLY WANT TO WORK
AS A VET.

"I DIDN'T WANT TO GO TO
MED SCHOOL AND ALL THAT,

"BUT I WANTED TO WORK FOR A VET,
ALL RIGHT?

"SO I APPLIED, AND I WAS
TOLD NO.

"AND THEY SAID, BECAUSE I
COULDN'T COMMUNICATE WITH DOGS.

THAT'S WHY I COULDN'T HAVE
THE JOB."

[LAUGHTER]

"BUT LATER--WELL, YOU KNOW,
I REALLY LOVE SPORTS.

"JUST LOVE SPORTS. ALWAYS HAVE.

"SO THEN I DECIDED, WELL, MAYBE

"I'D LIKE TO BE A SPORTSWRITER.

"SO I APPLIED FOR A JOB IN
THE SUMMERTIME.

"I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS
BETWEEN SOPHOMORE AND JUNIOR...

"I CAN'T REMEMBER
WHAT YEAR IT WAS,

"BUT I WANTED TO WRITE
FOR A SPORTS COLUMN.

"AND THEY SAID,
'YEAH, BUT YOU'RE DEAF.'

"AND I SAID, 'WELL, SO BALLS
DON'T TALK, DO THEY?

"IS THERE ANY PROBLEM
WITH THAT?'

"AND THE GUY SAID,
'YEAH, I AGREE WITH YOU.

"BALLS DON'T TALK.
THEY DON'T COMMUNICATE.'

"AND SO HE GAVE A TRIAL RUN.

"AND I DID THAT EVERY SUMMER.

I WROTE FOR THE SPORTS COLUMN
IN THE LOCAL NEWSPAPER."

KENNY SAYS, "DID SILENT MOVIES
INFLUENCE YOU AT ALL?

"DID YOU LOOK AT THOSE WHEN
YOU WERE GROWING UP?

SILENT MOVIES.
DID YOU WATCH THEM?"

MALZ SAYS, "NO, NO.
WELL, YES AND NO.

"THE PROBLEM IS, WHEN I WAS
A KID, I MEAN,

"I DIDN'T HAVE ANY AWARENESS
OF WHERE I COULD GO

"TO SEE A SILENT MOVIE OR WHERE
COULD I GET ONE,

"BUT THE SCHOOL FOR THE DEAF
HAD THEM.

"AND THEY'D SHOW THEM
EVERY WEEKEND.

"THEY'D SHOW THEM
ON SUNDAY NIGHTS.

"SO WE'D WATCH MOVIES
ON SUNDAY NIGHTS.

"SATURDAYS, WE'D GO DOWN INTO
TOWN, AND WE'D WATCH MOVIES,

"AND WE WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND
A THING,

BUT WE LIKED THEM ANYWAY.
WE HAD A GOOD TIME."

MALZ SAYS, "OH, SILENT MOVIES.

"WELL, WAIT A MINUTE.
MAYBE I DID. MAYBE I DID.

"BUT MAYBE UNCONSCIOUSLY
THEY INFLUENCED ME.

"PERHAPS THEY INFLUENCED ME
UNCONSCIOUSLY

"BUT NOT IN THE FOREFRONT OF
MY MIND

"BECAUSE THERE WERE MANY SCENES
THAT I CAN REMEMBER.

"YEARS LATER, I CAN STILL SORT
OF SEE THEM IN MY MIND.

"OH! I'LL TELL YOU ONE MOVIE
THAT I REALLY JUST LOVED.

"'THE THIEF OF BAGHDAD' WITH
DOUGLAS FAIRBANKS JR.

"THAT WAS POETRY.

"VERY, VERY POETIC THE WAY THOSE
MOVEMENTS WERE IN THAT FILM.

"AND I REALLY LIKED THAT
A LOT. YES. MM-HMM!

BUT MY GUMPTION AND WHATEVER,
YOU KNOW, CAME FROM ME."

KENNY SAYS, "PETER AND I SAW
THIS MOVIE THAT WAS ABOUT

"EL SALVADOR.

"THIS WAS ABOUT
3 OR 4 YEARS AGO.

AND IT REALLY HAD A HUGE IMPACT
ON US AT THE SAME TIME."

"PETER, DO YOU REMEMBER EXACTLY
WHAT IT WAS?

"I MEAN, WHAT IT WAS WE GOT
FROM THAT MOVIE

"ABOUT EL SALVADOR, WHAT IT WAS
THAT GOT US?

"I MEAN, IT, LIKE,
EXPLODED OUR BRAINS,

"AND IMMEDIATELY WE CAME UP WITH
A POEM THAT WAS INSTILLED

"BY IT.

"IT WASN'T FROM THIS MOVIE
ITSELF.

"BUT THE IDEAS IN IT SOMEHOW
ARE WHAT GAVE US

"THIS INSPIRATION
FOR SOMETHING ELSE.

"HAVE YOU EVER HAD THAT HAPPEN
TO YOU FROM A MOVIE

"OR FROM A BOOK

"OR SOMETHING--YOU READ IT
AND GO, 'WOW.

THAT GIVES ME THIS IDEA TO DO
THIS NEW THING'?"

MALZ SAYS, "I CAN'T REALLY
REMEMBER, TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH.

"I MEAN, THAT WAS ALL
REALLY A LONG TIME AGO.

"BUT THE WHOLE IDEA ABOUT ME
DOING THAT ON MY OWN, I MEAN,

"THE SPORTS WRITING THAT,
EVEN THOUGH I WAS DEAF,

"I WANTED TO DO IT,

"AND WRITING SCRIPTS TO SELL.

"YOU KNOW, AT ONE POINT, I WAS
A COPYWRITER.

"I WANTED TO WRITE ADS.

"I LOVED TV, AND I LOVED
THE WAY ADS WERE AND STUFF.

"SO I WENT TO SOMEBODY WHO

"NEEDED SOMEONE TO DO THAT JOB.

"AND I APPLIED, AND THEY SAID,
'YOU'RE DEAF.'

"I SAID, 'SO? YOUR POINT IS?'

"SO THEY GAVE ME A TRIAL TO BE
AN AD WRITER.

"SO A MONTH LATER, THE WOMAN WHO
HIRED ME ASKED ME TO TEACH HER.

"SO I WAS REALLY SUCCESSFUL.

"WHAT I WOULD DO--I WOULD GO
TO THE STORE,

"AND I'D GET WHATEVER
THE PRODUCT WAS

"THAT HAD TO BE SOLD.

"AND I WOULD TAKE IT TO MY
OFFICE.

"AND I'D REALLY STUDY IT
AND LOOK AT IT,

"AND THEN I WOULD WRITE

"SOME COPY,

AND IT SEEMED
TO WORK OUT GREAT."

KENNY SAID, "DID YOU EVER WRITE
A PLAY ABOUT BASEBALL?"

MALZ SAID, "GOOD IDEA.
MAYBE I SHOULD DO THAT.

"I DID, A LONG TIME AGO, SIGN
'CASEY AT THE BAT.'

I DID DO THAT."

PETER SAID, "DID YOU FOLLOW IT
LINE FOR LINE,

OR DID YOU CHANGE THE WORDS
OR ANYTHING?"

MALZ SAID, "OH, I FOLLOWED IT,
BUT, YOU KNOW,

I ADDED MY THINGS TO IT.
I DID IT MY WAY."

PETER SAID, "DO YOU HAVE ANY
PARTICULAR LINES

YOU REMEMBER FROM THAT THAT
REALLY STICK OUT IN YOUR MIND?"

MALZ: "OH, IT'S BEEN SO MANY
YEARS AGO. I'M SORRY.

"OH, NO, NO. WAIT A MINUTE.
WAIT A MINUTE! NO.

"THE VERY, VERY END.

I THINK THE VERY END--THE LAST
VERSE, I THINK."

"I THINK HE'S STANDING. THERE
WITH SOMETHING IN HIS BEARING.

LET ME SEE IF
I CAN REMEMBER THIS."

"OK. THIS IS CASEY."

"'CASEY.' THE SNEER IS GONE
FROM CASEY'S LIP."

"HIS TEETH ARE CLENCHED
IN HATE."

"HE POUNDS WITH CRUEL VIOLENCE,

"HIS BAT UPON THE PLATE.

"AND NOW THE PITCHER HOLDS
THE BALL,

"AND NOW HE LETS IT GO.

AND NOW THE AIR IS SHATTERED
BY THE FORCE OF CASEY'S BLOW."

SO LOOK AT THAT.
YOU KNOW, YOU'RE RIGHT.

I WAS DOING THE KIND OF
TECHNIQUE,

BUT I WASN'T DOING THAT
CONSCIOUSLY."

PETER SAYS, "THAT'S RIGHT.

TECHNICALLY, YOU GOT THAT."

AND MALZ SAID,
"I DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE IT.

IT'S JUST SORT OF LIKE
A NATURAL THING."

AND PETER SAID, "YEAH, JUST
A NATURAL THING YOU DID--

THE VV."

BUT MALZ SAYS, "SO BY THE FORCE
OF CASEY'S BLOW,

MIGHTY CASEY HAS STRUCK OUT."

[LAUGHTER]

[PERSON APPLAUDING]

PETER SAYS, "INTERESTING.

"YOU GREW UP--LET'S SEE. YOU
WERE HEARING UNTIL YOU WERE 10.

"YOU GOT SICK,
AND THEN YOU BECAME DEAF.

"AND THEN AT 12, YOU WENT TO
THE SCHOOL FOR THE DEAF,

"AND YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND
SIGN LANGUAGE.

"AND THEN GRADUALLY, YOU STARTED
PICKING IT UP

"AND ASSUMED THAT AS YOUR
LANGUAGE.

BUT WHAT WAS THE NAME OF THAT
COBBLER, THE SHOEMAKER AGAIN?"

"McCARTER."

"RIGHT. AND SO YOU SAW HIM
PERFORMING THINGS.

"DID YOU EVER SAY, 'HEY, LOOK
AT HOW HE'S DOING THAT?

I WANT TO DO THAT.'"

MALZ SAID, "NO. HE JUST SIGNED
VERY, VERY SMOOTHLY.

"HE DIDN'T DO A BACK-AND-FORTH
BODY SHIFT OR THINGS LIKE THAT.

IT WAS VERY SMOOTH."

PETER SAID, "WHERE DID YOU THINK
YOU FOUND

THAT PARTICULAR ASPECT OF GOING
FROM PERSON TO PERSON?"

MALZ SAYS, "I DON'T KNOW."

PETER SAID, "THE REASON I ASKED
IS BECAUSE I WAS HEARING

"UNTIL I WAS 3, THEN I GOT SICK.

"I BECAME DEAF.

"I WENT TO AN ORAL SCHOOL,

"AND I DIDN'T KNOW SIGN AT ALL.

"AND THEN I WENT
TO THE NAD CONFERENCE,

"THEIR 100-YEAR ANNIVERSARY
CELEBRATION IN CINCINNATI, OHIO.

"I DIDN'T SIGN AT ALL,

"AND THERE WERE ALL THESE DEAF
PEOPLE SIGNING EVERYWHERE.

DID YOU GO TO THAT?"

MALZ SAYS, "NO, I WASN'T THERE."

PETER SAID, "I JUST REMEMBER
THAT WERE THESE TWO ESCALATORS

"THAT CRISS-CROSS.

"THEY WERE DIAGONAL
TO EACH OTHER.

"AND PEOPLE WERE GOING UP TO
THE SECOND-FLOOR ATRIUM,

"ABOVE THE LOBBY DOWNSTAIRS.

"AND I'M STANDING THERE,

"AND I'M WATCHING ALL
THESE PEOPLE SIGNING

"AS THEY PASS EACH OTHER
ON THE ESCALATORS

"AS THEY SIGN
ALL ALONG THE ATRIUM UP ABOVE

"AND THE LOBBY BELOW,

"AND I JUST FELT LIKE I WAS
IN A FOREST OF HANDS

"EVERYWHERE I LOOKED.

"AND I WAS AGOG. JUST DEAF
PEOPLE EVERYWHERE I LOOKED.

"BUT I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND
ANYTHING BECAUSE I DIDN'T SIGN.

"THEN I WENT INTO BERNARD
BRAGG'S WORKSHOP ABOUT VV.

"AND I'M WATCHING,

"AND HE'S DESCRIBING
THE HUNTER AND THE DOG

"WHERE HE GOES BACK AND FORTH.

"AND I COULDN'T BELIEVE WHAT
I SAW.

"HE WENT BACK AND FORTH
AND STAYED IN ONE PLACE.

"AND MY MIND WAS BLOWN.

"AND SO IMMEDIATELY, I TOOK THAT
TECHNIQUE INTO MYSELF

"AS IF I'D ALWAYS HAD IT.

"IT WAS JUST SO NATURAL FOR ME.
I HAD NEVER DONE IT BEFORE.

"AND THE MOMENT I SAW IT, IT
MADE PERFECT SENSE TO ME,

"AND I MADE IT MY OWN.

DID YOU EVER HAVE ANYTHING
LIKE THAT?"

MALZ SAYS, "NOPE. AND, AGAIN, I
HAVE TO EXPLAIN THAT,

LIKE I SAID BEFORE..."

"I REALIZED THAT I COULD BE
100% FREE OF ENGLISH

"AND GO INTO ASL,
BUT I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT IT.

"I JUST DID IT, YOU KNOW?
IT WAS VERY, VERY DIFFERENT.

"I CAME UP WITH NEW THINGS,
BUT I JUST DID THEM,

"AND I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THEM
THE WAY YOU DO NOW.

I WAS A FREAK. I'M TELLING YOU,
I'M A FREAK."

KENNY SAYS, "YOU DIDN'T FEEL

"THAT YOU WERE VERY TECHNICAL

"IN A SENSE, BUT YOU SAID

"THE EMOTION WAS

"REALLY IMPORTANT TO GET OUT.

"AND I JUST WONDER, YOU KNOW,

"IF SOMETHING

"REALLY OCCURS TO YOU.

"YOU SEE A MOVIE OR YOU SEE

"SOMETHING VERY EMOTIONAL,

"AND THIS FLOOD OF EMOTION
OVERTAKES YOU,

"OR SOMETHING SCARES YOU,
OR SOMETHING INSPIRES YOU.

DOES THAT OCCUR TO YOU ONCE
IN A WHILE TO INSPIRE YOU?"

MALZ SAID, "THAT WAS ALWAYS
IMPORTANT TO ME,

"BUT I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT
MYSELF UNTIL I WENT TO NTD

"AND WHEN I WORKED THERE
AND TAUGHT THERE.

"I DID TEACH THERE, AS I SAID,

"AT THE TIME WHEN BRAGG
WAS THERE, TOO.

"AND THERE WAS A MAN THERE NAMED
GENE LASKO.

PETER SAYS, "YES! YES!
I KNOW EXACTLY WHO YOU MEAN."

MALZ SAYS, "SO LASKO,
WHAT HE DID,

"WELL, HE REALLY PUT BRAGG
AND ME IN THE SAME CATEGORY.

"HE THOUGHT THAT WE WERE
SORT OF THE SAME.

"HE ALLIED US TOGETHER

"AND THOUGHT THAT WE WERE
VERY SUPERFICIAL

"AND NOT VERY GOOD PERFORMERS.

"HE DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND
WHO I WAS,

"BUT HE LUMPED ME TOGETHER
WITH BERNARD BRAGG.

"BUT I WENT TO HIS CLASS
AND WATCHED HIM.

AND..."

"I WATCHED HIM, AND I GOT

"WHAT HE WAS DOING,

"AND I REALIZED THAT I OPERATED

"MORE LIKE HE DID, BUT HE

"ASSUMED THAT I WAS A LOT LIKE

"BERNARD BRAGG.

"BRAGG HAD THIS AMAZING TALENT,

"YOU KNOW, OF SIGNING WHATEVER.

"MY SIGNING WASN'T THAT GREAT.

"BUT HE HELPED ME A LOT.

"LASKO REALLY HELPED ME A LOT,

"BECAUSE WHAT HE WOULD DO IS

"HE'D WATCH HOW PEOPLE WORKED,

"AND HE WOULD FIND WHAT WAS
MISSING IN THEIR PERFORMANCE.

"NOW, THE MSSD LAST YEAR, I WAS
DIRECTING A PLAY,

"AND THERE WERE TWO KIDS IN IT--

"A GIRL AND A GUY.

"AND THE GIRL JUST HAD
A WORLD OF FEELING.

"JUST BEAUTIFULLY MOTIONED,

"BUT HER SIGNING WAS HORRIBLE,

"BECAUSE SHE REFUSED
TO PRACTICE.

"SHE WOULDN'T REHEARSE.

"I WORKED WITH HER, AND I SAID,

"'COME ON! COME ON!
LET'S GET IT TOGETHER.'

"AS FOR THE BOY, HE HAD THIS
GORGEOUS SIGN LANGUAGE RENDITION

"OF THE LINES HE HAD TO PERFORM,

"BUT HE HAD NO FEELING
WHATSOEVER,

"SO I TRIED TO PULL THE BEST OUT

"OF WHAT WAS GOOD OUT OF
BOTH OF THESE KIDS

"TO MAKE THEM BETTER
CONSUMMATE PERFORMERS.

"AND I THANK LASKO FOR THAT.
I REALLY DO.

"NO. I THINK HE DIDN'T REALIZE
WHAT WAS IN ME.

"HE'S REALLY, REALLY UP ON
THE FEELING BEHIND THE ACTION.

THAT'S WHAT HE WAS TRYING
TO GET OUT."

PETER SAID, "AND WHAT'S REALLY
AMAZING WAS

"HE JUST REALLY WANTED

"TO REFLECT WHAT THE IDEAS WERE.

"HE WAS VERY GOOD AT

PULLING THAT OUT OF PEOPLE."

AND MALZ SAID,
"YES, HE REALLY WOULD.

"HE WOULD WATCH WHAT PEOPLE DID.

"AND SOMETIMES HE WOULD JUST
LOOK AT THESE EXTRANEOUS SIGNS

"THAT PEOPLE WERE DOING,
AND HE WOULD CUT,

"AND HE WOULD CUT,
AND HE WOULD EDIT,

"AND HE WOULD PREEN THIS

"UNTIL HE'D GET IT RIGHT DOWN

"BARE TO THE BONE--

"VERY LEAN PERFORMANCES,

"AND THEY WERE ALWAYS BETTER
FOR HIS EDITING. ALWAYS.

"HE GOT ALL
THE EXTRANEOUS FLUFF OUT.

"AND WHAT WAS LEFT THERE WAS
A PERSON ON THE STAGE

DOING BEAUTIFUL SIGNS
WITH A LOT OF FEELING."

PETER SAID,
"YES, THAT'S INTERESTING.

"YOU KNOW, LASKO WASN'T
A VERY GOOD SIGNER

"AND DIDN'T KNOW MUCH
OF ANYTHING ABOUT DEAF CULTURE

"OR DEAF COMMUNITY
BUT WAS SO GOOD AT PULLING OUT

"THE BEST IN PEOPLE.

"I AGREE. YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.

MM-HMM."

"LASKO."

"NOT NOW, BUT BACK IN THE DAY,

"HE USED TO BE
A SECOND-UNIT DIRECTOR

"FOR THE HOLLYWOOD FILMMAKER
PENN, THE DIRECTOR.

"HE DID SEVERAL FILMS--
ARTHUR PENN, A FAMOUS DIRECTOR.

"HE WAS A SECOND-UNIT DIRECTOR
FOR ARTHUR PENN.

"AND HE'S DIRECTED
SEVERAL PLAYS ON BROADWAY,

BUT I DON'T KNOW THE TITLES."

PETER SAID, "I THINK HE WORKS
FOR A PRIVATE COMPANY NOW.

IS THAT RIGHT?
A PRIVATE THEATER COMPANY."

MALZ SAYS, "MAYBE."

PETER SAYS, "NOW, YOU KNOW,
I REALLY REMEMBER.

"I WENT TO SUMMER SCHOOL AT NTD
ONE YEAR.

"AND I REMEMBER LASKO VERY WELL,

"SO NOW THAT YOU BRING IT UP,

I'M REMEMBERING ALL THESE
THINGS ABOUT THE WAY HE WORKED."

MALZ SAYS, "YUP. AS I SAID, YOU
KNOW, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE ACTING.

"I TOOK SOME ACTING CLASSES
FOR HEARING PEOPLE

"WITH VOICE.

"IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE
ACTING WITH VOICE.

"BUT I TOOK THIS CLASS ANYWAY.

"AS I SAID, I WAS
VERY FORTHRIGHT,

"AND I TOOK A LOT OF
DIFFERENT ACTING CLASSES

TO IMPROVE MYSELF."

PETER SAID, "DID LASKO ASK YOU
TO DO

DIFFERENT SORTS
OF THEATER EXERCISES?"

MALZ SAYS, "WELL, I WASN'T PART
OF THE CLASSES.

I WAS JUST OBSERVING THEM."

PETER SAID, "OH,
YOU WATCHED THEM?"

PETER SAID,
"YEAH, I OBSERVED HIM.

"I OBSERVED HOW HE TAUGHT.

"LATER HE HAD A BIG FALLING OUT
WITH DAVID HAYS,

"AND THEN HE LEFT THE COMPANY.

"BUT THE FOLLOWING YEAR--

"ANOTHER DIRECTOR
WAS HIRED IN HIS PLACE.

"AND THEY ASKED ME TO COME BACK

"AND BE PART OF IT, AND I DID.

"AND THEY WERE
PRETTY IMPRESSED WITH ME.

"AND, AGAIN, IT WAS

"JUST THIS INTERNAL EMOTION.

"NOT NECESSARILY
THE SIGNING SKILL

"BUT WHAT YOU COULD BRING
TO THE PLAY

"AS FAR AS EMOTION GOES.

"BUT HE NEVER WAS PART
OF IT AGAIN.

"I NEVER SAW HIM AGAIN,

"AND HE NEVER EVEN KNEW

"THE AMOUNT OF INFLUENCE HE

"EXERTED UPON ME.

"HE JUST LUMPED ME WITH BERNARD

"AND THOUGHT THAT I HAD

"THIS VERY SUPERFICIAL AMOUNT

"OF SKILL, SADLY.

"WELL, HIT ME AGAIN. COME ON.

MORE QUESTIONS? LET'S GO."

[LAUGHTER]

MATTHEW SAID,
"WHAT'S THE NEXT BIG THING

YOU'RE LOOKING FORWARD TO?"

MALZ SAYS, "WHATEVER IT IS
I'M DOING TOMORROW.

"THAT'S THE TRUTH!

"IT HAS TO BE.

"RIGHT NOW I'M WORKING ON
'LITTLE SHOP OF HORRORS.'

"BUT WHEN THAT'S DONE, THEN I'LL
BE ON TO SOMETHING NEW.

I DON'T LIVE IN THE PAST.
NEVER LIVE IN THE PAST. ONWARD."

PETER SAYS, "I WANT TO TALK
A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE PAST

"A LITTLE BIT.

"SO IF YOU COULD
IMAGINE YOURSELF

"AS A SENIOR AT GALLAUDET--

"YOU'RE VERY INVOLVED IN
THE LITERARY SOCIETY, RIGHT?

"OR JUNIOR YEAR MAYBE. RIGHT.

"LET'S PRETEND IT'S JUNIOR YEAR.

"HERE IT IS THAT DAY,
AND YOU'RE THINKING,

"'TONIGHT I'M GOING TO PERFORM
JABBERWOCKY.

"THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO DO.'

"AND YOU'RE SITTING ON YOUR BED.

"AND YOU'D ALREADY SHOWN--

"YOU SHOWED PANARA, RIGHT?

"YOU SHOWED BOB PANARA? OK.

"YOU SHOWED PANARA.
HE'S EXCITED.

"'I'M GOING TO GO ON TONIGHT.
OH, BOY. SO EXCITED.'

"SO I'M WONDERING WHAT LED UP
TO THAT PERFORMANCE,

"WHAT WAS THE DAY LIKE, AND WHAT
HAPPENED AFTER THE PERFORMANCE?

"DID YOU GO OUT AFTERWARDS?
DID YOU GO TO A PARTY? TO A BAR?

"TELL ME ABOUT THAT DAY. TELL ME
ABOUT WHAT LED UP TO IT.

YOU COULD START WITH, 'WELL,
I GOT UP IN THE MORNING.'"

MALZ SAYS, "NOPE. LET'S SEE.
I DO KNOW ONE THING.

"ALWAYS IN THE BACK OF MY MIND,
I'M RUNNING LINES.

"ALWAYS I'M LOOKING
AT THE SCRIPT

"IN THE BACK OF MY MIND.

I WENT TO LOS ANGELES WITH
PETER COOK"--OH.

[LAUGHTER]

"PETER WOLF, I MEANT. NOT YOU--
PETER COOK. NOPE. NOT YOU.

"SO IT WAS JONATHAN ROMAN
AND PETER WOLF

"AND LOU FANT

"AND ONE OTHER PERSON.

"AND WE WERE DOING A SHOW THERE,

"AND THEY WANTED ME TO DO
'JABBERWOCKY.'

"SO I'M SITTING BEFORE THE SHOW,
AND WE'RE EATING DINNER.

"AND I'M RUNNING LINES IN
THE BACK OF MY MIND

"WHILE I'M EATING DINNER.

"'JABBERWOCKY's' JUST RUNNING
THROUGH THE BACK OF MY MIND

"WHILE I'M EATING.

"AND PETER LOOKS AT ME, HE SAYS,

"'WOW! MALZ, YOU LOOK
SO RELAXED.'

"AND I JUST GRINNED, BUT IN
THE BACK OF MY MIND,

"I'M RUNNING THESE LINES,

"AND I'VE GOT BUTTERFLIES
IN MY STOMACH

"CONSTANTLY FLUTTERING
UP AND DOWN, UP AND DOWN.

"YOU HAVE TO HAVE
BUTTERFLIES IN MY STOMACH.

"YOU HAVE TO, OR YOU CAN'T DO
A GOOD JOB. THAT'S WHAT I THINK.

"YOU KNOW? IT WOULD BOTHER
ME TO KNOW

"THAT I DIDN'T HAVE BUTTERFLIES.

"I HAVE TO.
BUT WHAT'S INTERESTING IS,

"WHEN I WENT TO NTD, I TAUGHT
FOR A WHILE.

"AND I WROTE THIS POEM, AND I
WANTED EVERYBODY IN THE COMPANY

"TO PERFORM IT.

"AND I ASKED GIL EASTMAN
TO LEAD EVERYBODY

"IN LEARNING THIS POEM.

"SO THE WHOLE NTD COMPANY WAS

"GOING TO BE
PERFORMING THIS WITH ME.

"SO EASTMAN SAID, OK, HE WOULD
TEACH THEM.

"HE ASKED ME HOW, AND I SAID,
'OH, COME ON.' YOU KNOW, LIKE,

"'DON'T BE SILLY. YOU CAN TEACH
EVERYBODY.'

"AND HE FINALLY SAID, 'OH, COME
ON. JUST DO IT YOURSELF.

"'IT'S YOUR POEM. YOU KNOW IT.
YOU WROTE IT.

"WHY DON'T YOU TEACH EVERYBODY?
YOU'VE GOT THE SKILL?'

"SO, YOU KNOW,
I TRIED TO TEACH EVERYBODY.

"AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS--

"I'M SIGNING THIS ALONG

"FOR EVERYBODY.

"AND I LOST A LINE.

"I COULDN'T REMEMBER.

"I COULDN'T
REMEMBER.

"NOW, I SAID,
'LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,

"'THAT WAS TAKE ONE.

"'THIS IS TAKE 2.

"START AT THE TOP.'

"AND SO WE WORKED OUR WAY
THROUGH IT AGAIN.

"BUT WHAT'S FUNNY IS THE REASON

"I HAD THAT GLITCH WAS

"I HADN'T PRACTICED IT ENOUGH.

"I'D GOTTEN TO A CERTAIN POINT
WHICH WAS VERY WELL-PRACTICED,

"BUT I HADN'T REHEARSED QUITE
ENOUGH OF THIS OTHER PART,

"AND THAT'S WHERE I LOST IT.

"YOU KNOW, RIGHT IN BETWEEN
THE BEGINNING AND THE END,

"I LOST THIS MIDDLE SECTION.

"THERE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THIS
OTHER SONG THAT CAME IN.

"SO AT ONE POINT,
I WAS SIGNING THIS,

"AND I LOST SOME LINES.

"I FORGOT WHAT I WAS DOING,
BUT MY HANDS KEPT GOING.

"SO EVEN THOUGH MY MIND HAD
A COMPLETE BLANK

"MY HANDS JUST KNEW WHAT TO DO,

"BECAUSE I HAD THAT
MUSCLE MEMORY AND THAT HABIT.

"SO I WAS ABLE TO GET THROUGH IT
ANYWAY.

"IT WAS A VERY INTERESTING
EXPERIENCE

THAT MY BODY TOOK OVER WHERE MY
MIND HAD A LITTLE BIT OF A GAP."

KENNY SAYS, "THAT NIGHT THAT
YOU PERFORMED,

"WHEN YOU WERE HEADING UP TO IT,
DID YOU HAVE ANY SORT OF, LIKE,

"RITUAL, SPECIAL CLOTHES YOU
HAD TO WEAR FOR GOOD LUCK

"OR SOME KIND OF EXERCISES

"OR MOVEMENTS YOU HAD TO DO
TO WARM YOURSELF UP

"THAT YOU THOUGHT WOULD BE
GOOD LUCK OR GET YOU READY

"SO YOU HAVE THE RIGHT KIND OF
ENERGY? JUMPING JACKS?

OR DID YOU JUST SIT
AND MEDITATE? WHAT HAPPENED?"

MALZ SAID,
"WELL, BRAGG HAS FOUND

"SOME EXERCISES FOR MIMES.

"AND THAT'S QUITE HELPFUL.

"SO SOMETIMES
I DO THAT SOMETIMES.

"AND I'VE MODIFIED THOSE
TO FIT ME.

"I DO THINGS LIKE THIS WITH
MY HANDS TO WARM THEM UP.

"GET THE DEXTERITY GOING IN
MY FINGERS.

SQUEEZE THEM TOGETHER."

"THESE SORTS OF MOVEMENTS.

"THAT HELPS LOOSEN ME UP.
I'LL TRY THAT.

"IT'S JUST LIKE
VOCAL SCALES, RIGHT,

"WHEN PEOPLE ARE GETTING
READY TO SING? MM-HMM.

"YOU CAN TRY THAT.

"AND THAT'S WHAT I DID.

"THAT'S WHAT I DID AT
NATIONAL THEATRE OF THE DEAF.

"I LEARNED THOSE FROM BRAGG,

"AND HE MADE ME
THE EXERCISE BOY.

"I HAD TO EXERCISE.

SO THAT WAS HIS THING."

"SO HE TAUGHT THE COMPANY,
AND THAT'S WHAT WE ALL HAD TO DO

IF WE WERE PART OF
THE COMPANY."

MATTHEW SAYS, "HOW DID YOU FEEL

AFTER YOU DID IT?"

MALZ SAYS, "I FELT ON TOP
OF THE WORLD.

"ON TOP OF THE WORLD,

"VERY RELAXED AFTERWARDS.

VERY HAPPY TALKING WITH PEOPLE,
VERY MUCH SO."

PETER SAYS, "AND RELIEVED?"
MALZ SAYS, "OH, YES.

"I COULD FINALLY LET GO.
ABSOLUTELY.

"YOU KNOW, I WAS ON A CLOUD FOR
I THINK 10 YEARS. YOU KNOW?

I FELT THAT EVERYBODY
ACCEPTED ME."

AND PETER SAID,
"YEAH, ON TO THE NEXT THING

SO YOU COULD HAVE MORE LINES
GO IN THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD?"

"ABSOLUTELY.

"I WENT TO THE UNIVERSITY OF
LOUISVILLE AT ONE POINT.

"THIS WAS A FEW YEARS AGO.

"I WAS AN ARTIST IN RESIDENCE
THERE FOR A WEEK,

"AND THERE WAS A SHOW THAT WE
WERE DOING.

"AND IT WAS KIND OF INTERESTING
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,

"I'VE TRAVELED.

WHAT WE DID WITH THIS SHOW WAS

"WE TRAVELED TO DIFFERENT PARKS,

"AND THERE WAS A MUSICIAN

"WHO WAS SINGING THESE SONGS

"WITH A GUITAR.

"AND I WROTE SOME POEMS
TO GO WITH IT.

"AND WE WERE OUTSIDE IN THESE
DIFFERENT PARKS UNDER THE TREES

"WITH THE WIND BLOWING IN
THE TREES.

"IT WAS REALLY NICE.

"AND PEOPLE WOULD COME TO SEE IT

"WHO DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT
SIGN LANGUAGE,

"BUT THEY WOULD FOLLOW ALONG
WITH THE SIGNS IN THE CHORUS

"AND WHAT HAVE YOU.

"IT WAS REALLY NICE.
THAT WAS FUN.

"AND, ALSO, I WOULD TEACH
THEM HOW TO SIGN THINGS

"LIKE 'THE DOG SHOOK ITSELF
FROM HEAD TO TAIL.'

"I WOULD TEACH THEM HOW TO DO

"LITTLE IDEAS LIKE THAT.

"HERE'S HOW YOU DO IT.

SHOOK ITS HEAD ALL THE WAY DOWN
THE BODY TO THE TAIL."

[LAUGHTER]

"SHAKE ITS HEAD. SHAKE, SHAKE,
SHAKE, SHAKE. TAIL."

[LAUGHTER]

"THAT'S THE WHOLE THING.

'THE DOG SHOOK ITSELF
FROM HEAD TO TAIL.'"

KENNY SAYS, "WHAT ABOUT MY DOG?
WHAT ABOUT BOB DOG?

HOW WOULD YOU SHOW HIM SHAKING
HIMSELF FROM HEAD TO TAIL?"

MALZ SAYS, "WELL...

"HEAD, BIG, BIG BODY, BIG LONG
TAIL."

"YOUR DOG'S A BIG DOG.

"IT TAKES A LITTLE LONGER.

"I LIKE TO CREATE THINGS
LIKE THAT,

COME UP WITH THINGS LIKE THAT."

"IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT
FOR HEARING PEOPLE TO FOCUS IN

ON THE FACE."

"AND YOU CAN SHOW THEM--WELL,
LIKE FOR THE SIGN 'PREGNANCY,'

"FOR EXAMPLE.

"YOU CAN BE PREGNANT LIKE THIS

"OR LIKE THIS...
OR LIKE THIS...

"OR PREGNANT LIKE THIS.

OR PREGNANT
LIKE THIS."

"OR PREGNANT LIKE THIS, RIGHT?

"IT'S THE SAME SIGN
BUT INFLECTED DIFFERENT WAYS

"WITH DIFFERENT
FACIAL EXPRESSION.

"IT WOULD TAKE A LOT
OF DIFFERENT ADJECTIVES

"AND ENGLISH WORDS TO FIT TO
EXPLAIN EACH ONE OF THOSE.

"SO THERE'S A LOT OF EXPERIENCES
THAT I'VE HAD LIKE THAT.

"I TOOK A CLASS ONE TIME AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA.

"AND IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE
THE PSYCHOLOGY OF COMMUNICATION.

"IT WAS, YOU KNOW,
MOSTLY, PSYCHOLOGY CLASSES,

"I THINK, ARE KIND OF A BUNCH
OF CRAP, TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH,

"YOU KNOW?

"BUT THIS ONE DAY, YOU KNOW,
THERE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE

"A NOTE-TAKER.

"BUT I WAS LOOKING FOR THIS
NOTE-TAKER,

"AND SHE JUST WAS NEVER THERE.
SUPPOSED TO HAVE NOTES.

"BUT THERE WAS NO INTERPRETER.

"SO I DID NOTICE IN THE CLASS
THERE WAS THIS GUY

"WHO USED TO BE THE HEAD OF
THE DAY SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA,

"IN OAKLAND, AND I KNEW HIM.

"HE HAD A DEAF DAUGHTER.
HE SIGNED OK.

"HE SIGNED A LITTLE BIT,
NOT GREAT, BUT GOOD ENOUGH.

"AND I SAID, 'WOULD YOU MIND
INTERPRETING FOR ME?

"THE NOTE-TAKER'S NOT HERE.'
HE SAID, 'FINE.'

"SO HE SAT NEXT TO ME.

"AND THE TEACHER'S
TALKING ALONG.

"AND THIS GUY'S SUPPOSED TO HAVE
BEEN INTERPRETING,

"BUT HE WAS JUST SITTING THERE.

"AND AFTER ABOUT A HALF AN HOUR,
HE LEANS OVER TO ME, HE SAYS,

'NOTHING NEW.'"

[LAUGHTER]

"AND THEN ANOTHER HALF-HOUR
GOES BY,

"AND HE SAID, 'SAME OLD CRAP.'

"KIND OF PISSED ME OFF
TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH.

SO I SAID, 'GOSH, THIS ISN'T
GETTING ME ANYWHERE.

"SO I JUST SAT THERE
AND DOODLED.

"JUST DREW PICTURES.

"AND THE PROFESSOR GETS WIND OF
WHAT I'M DOING,

"STARTS GETTING REALLY MAD
AT ME.

"BUT WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO?

"YEAH, I CAN'T LIP-READ THE GUY.

"HE'S GOT A MUSTACHE, AND HE'S
GARBLING HIS WORDS.

"SO I JUST SAT THERE DOODLING.

"SO HE COMES UP TO ME,
AND HE SAYS,

"'HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO LEARN
ANYTHING

"IF YOU'RE NOT
PAYING ATTENTION?'

"AND SO MY FRIEND SAID,
'OH, HE'S READING MY NOTES,'

"WHICH WAS BULLSHIT, BECAUSE
HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY NOTES AT ALL.

"BUT THIS CLASS REQUIRED
A PAPER.

"WE HAD TO WRITE A TERM PAPER.

"SO I WROTE THIS PAPER.

"AND IN THIS PAPER, I EXPLAINED
THE IMPORTANCE

"OF COMMUNICATION ON THE FACE.

"BECAUSE FACIAL EXPRESSION IS
THE SAME

"AS INTONATION AND NUANCE.

"SO I WRITE THIS PAPER DEALING
WITH THAT,

"AND I SUBMITTED IT.

"THE LAST DAY OF CLASS,

"I GAVE IT IN,

"AND HE JUST GAVE
ME THIS COLD LOOK.

"HE TOOK MY PAPER, AND HE JUST
LOOKED ME UP AND DOWN.

AND I THOUGHT, 'WOW.'

"IN HIS MIND, HE'S THINKING
F PAPER.

AND I THOUGHT, 'OK. IF
I GET A C, I'LL BE SATISFIED

"WITH THE CLASS.
I DON'T REALLY CARE.'

"THE NEXT WEEK IN THE MAIL,
I GET THIS FOLDER

"WITH A POSTAGE STAMP ON IT,
AND I OPEN IT UP.

"AND IT'S GOT AN A-PLUS ON IT,

"AND ATTACHED TO IT IS A NOTE.

"AND IT SAYS, 'ERIC MALZKUHN.

"'SO SORRY THAT
I UNDERESTIMATED YOU.

"'THIS IS AN AMAZING PAPER.

"'AND WOULD YOU PLEASE COME
TEACH MY CLASS ONCE IN A WHILE?

'WOULD YOU COME GIVE A SPECIAL
LECTURE TO MY CLASS?

"COULD YOU GIVE A PRESENTATION
FOR ME?'

"AND SO FOR SEVERAL
YEARS AFTERWARDS,

EVERY YEAR, I WOULD GO
TO HIS CLASS

"AND GIVE A PRESENTATION.

"SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT

"HE TALKED ABOUT THE WHOLE TIME,

"BUT I WAS ABLE TO GET
THIS PAPER,

"AND I WAS ABLE
TO FOLLOW WELL ENOUGH

"TO BE ABLE TO DO A PAPER.

"THERE WAS NO EXAM IN THIS CLASS
ANYWAY

"AND NO BOOKS YOU HAD TO BUY.

SO IT WAS JUST FUNNY THAT
WORKED OUT OK."

KENNY SAYS, "WHEN YOU WERE ABOUT
TO PERFORM 'JABBERWOCKY'

"AND YOU WERE DONE,
WHAT HAPPENED AFTERWARDS?

"WHAT DID YOU DO?
DID YOU GO OUT?

"DID YOU GO TO BARS
AFTER A LITERARY SOCIETY?

"DID YOU JUST HANG OUT
AND TALK TO YOUR FRIENDS?

WHAT WOULD YOU GUYS DO AFTER
A LITERARY SOCIETY EVENT?"

MALZ SAYS,
"WELL, MY ENERGY THESE DAYS IS

"VERY, VERY LIMITED.

SO NOW MOST OF THE TIME,
I JUST GO HOME."

PETER SAYS, "NO. HE'S TALKING
ABOUT BACK IN THE DAY."

"OH," MALZ SAYS.
"OH, WE'D GO TO A BAR.

"WE WOULD DRINK. WE'D HANG OUT.
WE'D SHARE EXPERIENCES.

"WE WOULD TALK. WE WOULD LAUGH
A LOT ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

"YOU KNOW, WE'D TALK ABOUT
BLUNDERS WE MADE ON THE STAGE

AND AD-LIBS WE HAD TO DO
TO COVER UP OUR MISTAKES."

PETER SAYS, "OH, YEAH, YOU KNOW.
TONIGHT WHAT WE DID WRONG--

"WE'D ALWAYS TALK ABOUT HOW
NOBODY EVEN KNEW WHAT WE DID,

"AND WE'D LAUGH
A LOT ABOUT WHAT WE DO WRONG

AND HOW WE TRY TO COVER IT."

MALZ SAYS, "EXACTLY. THAT'S
WHAT I WOULD DO.

"THERE WAS THIS ONE PLAY
I WAS IN.

"AND I HAD A MUSTACHE THAT CAME
OFF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SCENE.

"SO I WAS SUPPOSED TO ENTER
THE SCENE.

"I WAS SUPPOSED TO COME ONSTAGE.

"I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A FAMOUS
FILM DIRECTOR.

"I GO IN, AND IT COMES OFF.

"I'D GONE IN EARLY,
AND THEN THE MUSTACHE CAME OFF.

"AND I LOOKED AT IT,
AND I YELLED AT THE OTHER ACTOR.

"I SAID, 'I PAY YOU $10,000,

"'AND YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO ACT
BETTER THAN THAT.

"AND YOUR MUSTACHE FALLS OFF?'

"I TOOK THE CIGAR OUT OF
MY MOUTH,

"AND I SHOVED IT IN HIS MOUTH.

"AND THE ACTOR--YOU KNOW,
THE WHOLE THING WAS AN AD-LIB.

"I JUST MADE UP THE WHOLE THING.

"AND HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO
BECAUSE HE WAS SO TAKEN ABACK!

AND THAT WAS REALLY FUNNY.
THAT WAS REALLY FUNNY."

PETER SAYS, "SO I KNOW YOU'VE
BEEN TEACHING

FOR QUITE A WHILE NOW."

"AND YOU TAUGHT PHYLLIS FRELICH
AND ELLA?

DID YOU TEACH ELLA ALSO?"

MALZ SAYS, "YUP, AND LINDA BOVE
AT NTD

AND, OF COURSE, BERNARD BRAGG
AT NTD ALSO."

ELLA WAS IN CALIFORNIA, THOUGH."

PETER SAID, "OK."

THE VIDEOGRAPHER'S ASKING
A QUESTION.

MALZ SAID, "I MET HIM AT MSSD,
BUT I'M NOT SURE

"IF IT WAS THROUGH A CLASS

OR WHAT EXACTLY
THE CONNECTION WAS."

"NO, NO. NO, THAT WAS MUCH
LATER, MUCH LATER.

I HAD LEFT BY THEN."

SO PETER SAYS, "SO TERRYLENE.

"YOU COULD SAY, THERE'S,
OBVIOUSLY, LIKE,

"THREE OR FOUR DIFFERENT
GENERATIONS OF PEOPLE.

DID YOU TEACH PATRICK GRAYBILL?"

MALZ SAYS, "I WORKED WITH HIM.

"I WORKED WITH HIM
BUT NOT MUCH.

"BECAUSE HE WAS
A LITTLE BIT LATER.

BUT I DID WORK WITH HIM SOME."

PETER SAID, "OK. SO YOU GOT
BERNARD BRAGG,

"AND THEN YOU'VE GOT ELLA
AND VALLI IN THE NEXT COHORT,

"AND THEN TERRYLENE
IS MAYBE IN A YOUNGER COHORT.

"AND WHAT'S THE NAME OF THAT
OTHER PERSON? BYRD?

"BYRD? YEAH, THEN THERE'S BYRD.

AND THERE'S ALAN GRANOFF.
IS THAT RIGHT?"

"ALAN GRANOFF, YUP, WAS ONE OF
MY STUDENTS ALSO."

AND PETER SAYS, "SO THERE'S
ALL THESE DIFFERENT COHORTS

"OF PEOPLE THAT YOU'VE TAUGHT.

"AND I WONDER WHEN YOU LOOK AT
ALL OF THEM, DO YOU THINK THAT

THEY HAVE A SIMILAR SORT OF
FLAVOR IN THEIR DELIVERY?"

MALZ SAYS, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY
A SIMILAR FLAVOR?"

MATTHEW SAYS, "DO THEY DEVELOP
A DIFFERENT ACTING STYLE

"OR A DIFFERENT WAY OF
EXPRESSING THEMSELVES?

"DO YOU NOTICE A DIFFERENCE IN
EACH DIFFERENT GROUP?

ARE THEY THE SAME?"

MALZ SAYS, "I FIND WHAT IS
UNIQUELY THERE IS

"IN EACH PERSON.

"I FIND THE BEAUTY IN EACH OF
THEIR STYLES,

"AND THEN I TRY TO HELP THEM
DEVELOP THAT STYLE.

"THEY DON'T NEED TO HAVE
MY STYLE SUPERIMPOSED ON THEM.

"I DON'T REALLY GIVE THEM
ANYTHING. I FIND WHAT THEY HAVE.

"AND I HELP THEM CULTIVATE
WHAT THEY HAVE

THAT'S UNIQUELY THEIRS."

"AND FOR A LONGER PLAY,
LIKE AT MSSD,

"I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR EVERYBODY
TO TRANSLATE THEIR OWN LINES.

"I JUST TRANSLATE THE WHOLE PLAY
MYSELF.

"AND THEN THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW
THE LINES THAT I DO,

"BUT WHAT I DO IS LATER,
AFTER THEY'RE PERFORMING,

"DURING PERFORMANCES,
I'LL SAY,

"'THAT'S BEAUTIFUL. THAT'S
PERFECT. KEEP IT. KEEP IT.

"THAT'S NOT EVEN MINE,
BUT YOU ADDED SOMETHING NEW.'

"AND THAT'S THE WAY I ROLL
WITH THE STUDENTS THERE.

PETER SAYS
SOMETHING OFF-SCREEN HERE.

PETER SAYS, "I'LL TEACH STUDENTS
TO DO SOMETHING,

"AND I'LL NOTICE HOW THEY DO IT,
AND I'LL THINK, 'OH!

"'I SHOULD TEACH A DIFFERENT WAY
NEXT TIME

"'BECAUSE THE WAY THEY JUST
DID THAT MAKES ME REALIZE

"I CAN IMPROVE THE WAY
I EVEN TEACH THEM.'

"AND I HAVE MY TEACHING STYLE
AND DIFFERENT IDEAS

"GET BETTER EACH TIME BECAUSE
WHEN I TEACH FOLKS,

"I LEARN FROM THEM.

HAVE YOU HAD THAT HAPPEN
TO YOU?"

AND MALZ SAID, "AGAIN, PROBABLY
UNCONSCIOUSLY.

"I DON'T THINK I'M CONSCIOUSLY
DETERMINED TO BE BETTER AT IT,

"BUT I'M SURE THAT THAT'S
HAPPENED TO ME, TOO,

"BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, AT THE SAME
TIME, I'M TRYING TO, YOU KNOW,

"USE NEW IDEAS.

"LIKE,
FOR INSTANCE, FINGERSPELLING.

"I'M TRYING TO FIND
CREATIVE WAYS

"TO USE FINGERSPELLING
THESE DAYS.

"AND SO I LIKE THAT TO BE
SOMETHING

"THAT THEY CAN UTILIZE.

"BECAUSE, OK, IT'S ENGLISH,
RIGHT?

"BUT YOU CAN STILL USE THAT.

"SO ESPECIALLY FOR NAMES,
YOU CAN USE

"FINGERSPELLING TECHNIQUES
FOR NAMES.

"SO SPELL IT IN AN INTERESTING
AND CREATIVE WAY.

"SO I'LL TEACH A CLASS.

"LIKE, I'M TEACHING
A SIGN LANGUAGE CLASS.

"I'VE DONE THAT BEFORE.

"AND IT'S ALL HEARING PEOPLE,
AND THEY'RE LEARNING TO SPELL.

"AND I'LL SAY, 'OK, SO YOU'RE
FINGERSPELLING,

"'BUT FINGERSPELLING CAN BE
DONE CREATIVELY

"AS LONG AS YOU DON'T
OVERDO IT.'

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE 'FAST.'
F-A-S-T. SIGN 'FAST' FAST."

"This project is supported by a Digitizing Hidden Collections grant from the Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR). The grant program is made possible by funding from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation."

Title supplied by cataloger