ds_0027_rennieinterview_cap_01.mp4

ds_0027_rennieinterview_cap_01.mp4

Interview

Rennie, Debbie

Rennie, Debbie Interviews

American Sign Language literature

Deaf Poetry

American poetry 20th century

American poetry 21st century

Deaf, Writings of the, American

ASL poetry

Part of a collection of interviews made for a film on ASL poetry, "The Heart of the Hydrogen Jukebox." Debbie Rennie shares influences on her development as an ASL poet, starting with transferring to a Deaf school when she was 12. Her world opened up in an ASL rich accessible environment. In the evenings, the students would create stories and she took a mime class which led to performances. Her school also had a strong theatre and arts program which fostered creativity. She reflects upon her NTID years in the 1980s where she participated in Sunshine II, and interned in the Performing Arts department. Classes such as Creative Sign Language (taught by Patrick Graybill), Deaf Literature (taught by Robert Panara), dance (taught by Steph Z.) and acting honed her translation, movement, artistic and ASL poetry skills. She recalls the challenge of translating works, such as Dorothy Miles's poems into another art form such as movement. They did works like "Spoon River Anthology" and haiku poems and played with sign language. She majored in Graphic Design and met Peter Cook who also chose this major. They were exposed to new ideas in the art world which influenced their works. During this time, she, Peter Cook and Kenny Lerner became roommates. They constantly discussed ideas for their poetry work and performed. She discovered the realization that she did not have to write in English to produce poetry that she could create in ASL. English was not a language she was fluent in, and she felt inferior and devalued in that language which affected her self-worth. Expressing herself in ASL was natural as she was fluent in that language and could express herself freely and creatively. One poem that stands out for her is "Hamburg" which she did with Peter and considers it the best work they have done. Other creative works that stand out are "Cigarette Smoke" and "Big World Compared to Small World" which she felt were excellent. She started attending interpreted poetry readings where she saw Jim Cohn read his works. He had a great influence on her and encouraged her as a poet. She also met Donna Kachites who became her interpreter when she performed. Rennie discusses the importance of the first 1987 National ASL Poetry Conference which brought together poets with different expressive styles like Ella Mae Lentz, Clayton Valli, Patrick Graybill, Peter Cook, and herself. Valli gave them credibility as he was also a linguist and validated that their work was poetry. So much was shared that weekend and she grew from that experience. ASL poetry exploded and she along with Patrick Graybill and Dennis Webster performed at "The Cellar" or "The Ritz" on Tuesday nights with fellow poets like Peter Cook. Another venue for performances was Jazzberries where interpreted performances was conducted for a mixed audience of Deaf and hearing people. She recalls Howie Seago, Patrick Graybill, Clayton Valli performing as well as herself. Around this time, there was a group of Deaf and hearing poets and interpreters (Debbie, Peter, Kenny, Jim, Donna) who called themselves "Bridge Of", a short-lived group. They performed group poems which was difficult to create. She performed along with her fellow poets at a festival, "Clearwater Festival". In order to prepare for her poetry performances, she would videotape herself and give the video to her interpreter, Donna Kachites who took notes. Then Debbie would review the notes and they would meet to discuss how best to interpret the work and practice. They practiced a lot together so they could get the timing right and give a flawless performance. She marvels as to how this occurred because they freely volunteered their time without pay. Today, that probably would not occur. Debbie and Donna were committed to having the whole community involved, including Deaf and hearing, so all could have access and understand the performances. Debbie said it was great to work with Donna who was a gifted poetics interpreter. There was some controversy about whether ASL poetry should be voiced with many discussions about this. Debbie believed it was important to give access to everyone, thus her work with Donna. Some of Rennie's poems highlighted social issues she cared about, such as "Veal Boycott", and "Missing Children". Debbie likes to project emotions into her work and wants to "hit" the audience with those feelings. There are several influences on her works she has incorporated techniques such as the way Ella Mae Lentz uses rhythm and repetition, handshape formation from Patrick Graybill, backward/forward movements and shifts in time and place from Peter Cook, and infusing symbols and metaphors. She discusses the importance of using classifiers as they provide perspective and a rich and visual image, such as showing the different ways a person walks, or showing trees going by. Peter Cook talked about film language which is similar to sign language and can show perspectives such as a person walking, a bullet coming towards that person, and becoming the bullet. ASL poetry expression involves so many other features and elements such as choosing the correct sign angle, showing emotions, using facial expressions, moving the body for special effect, standing a particular way and more. She takes all of these ideas and techniques and mixes them up to refine her poems. Not surprisingly, Debbie sees her identity bound with being an ASL poet which is a source of pride and self-actualization for her. It makes her feel good about herself as a Deaf person. Being a poet is a developing process and reflects who she is. Over the years her work has evolved in its maturity and elegance. She finds poetry therapeutic and will create poems out of painful experiences or increase awareness of social issues that she cares about. She loves playing with ASL poetry and performing her work which is a source of self-esteem. After she left NTID, she settled in Sweden. The 1980s was a time of discovering ASL poetry, as if a flower was blooming. At that time, she thought the seeds from that flower would be dispersed widely, take root, and grow elsewhere, but that did not happen. She believes she has taken those seeds and disseminated them in Sweden through educational videos where an appreciation of sign poetry is part of the curriculum at five Deaf schools. She considers this a positive development as sign poetry is on par with written and spoken poetry. Deaf students exposed to sign poetry will keep it alive as they start creating their own works.

National Technical Institute for the Deaf

Rochester Institute of Technology - RIT Libraries - RIT Archive Collections

Lerner, Miriam Nathan

2007

2018

moving image

mp4

DVD

85 minutes

American Sign Language

English

RITDSA.0027

Sculptures in the Air: An Accessible Online Video Repository of the American Sign Language (ASL) Poetry and Literature Collections

Miriam and Kenneth Lerner ASL Poetry Collection

2018-2019 CLIR Grant-ASL Poetry and Literature

https://albert.rit.…

https://archivesspa…

New York - Rochester

Henrietta Campus

RIT Libraries makes materials from its collections available for educational and research purposes pursuant to U.S. Copyright Law. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. It is your responsibility to obtain permission from the copyright holder to publish or reproduce images in print or electronic form.

CC BY-NC-ND: Attribution NonCommercial NoDerivatives 4.0 International

I WAS BORN DEAF,

AND WE DON'T REALLY
KNOW THE REASONS WHY.

IT'S PROBABLY HEREDITARY.

BUT MY FAMILY DIDN'T
SIGN AT ALL.

I WAS FIRST PLACED INTO
A DAY SCHOOL PROGRAM

THAT I COMMUTED TO.

IT WAS ALL ORAL.

THERE WAS NO SIGN LANGUAGE
ALLOWED AT ALL.

IT WAS REALLY A STRUGGLE.

I WAS ALWAYS HAVING TO GUESS
TO FILL IN THE GAPS.

VERY DIFFICULT.

WHAT I WAS GOOD AT WAS
READING BODY LANGUAGE

AND FACIAL EXPRESSIONS,

AND I WAS ABLE TO PUT
TOGETHER INFORMATION

FROM WHAT I SAW.

WHEN I FINALLY HIT
THE AGE OF 12,

I WAS PUT INTO A SCHOOL
FOR THE DEAF,

AND FINALLY THERE WERE
NO MORE STRUGGLES.

I DIDN'T FEEL AS IF I WAS
HANDICAPPED AT ALL.

I FELT LIKE I WAS SWIMMING
IN AN OCEAN OF LANGUAGE.

IT WAS SO PLEASURABLE JUST
HAVING LANGUAGE

AROUND ME ALL THE TIME.

I PICKED IT UP
REALLY QUICKLY,

AND I FELT AT HOME
IMMEDIATELY.

I NEVER HAD THE SKILL
AS A LIPREADER.

I JUST WASN'T GOOD
AT THAT AT ALL.

BUT WITH SIGN LANGUAGE,
I COULD PLAY.

BACK IN THE DORM EVERY DAY,
EVERY NIGHT,

WE JUST PLAYED WITH LANGUAGE.

WE CAME UP WITH ABC STORIES.

WE TOOK TURNS SHARING
DIFFERENT IDEAS.

HAD A LOT OF INFLUENCE ON ME,

PLAYING WITH LANGUAGE.

THERE WASN'T TV AROUND.
WE JUST SIGNED.

WE TOOK TURNS ALL THE TIME

JUST SHOWING EACH OTHER
THINGS IN SIGN LANGUAGE.

WHEN I GOT TO NATIONAL TECHNICAL
INSTITUTE FOR THE DEAF,

I WAS IN THEATER.

BUT THE LANGUAGE I SAW HERE
WAS MOSTLY ENGLISH.

PEOPLE WERE SIGNING
MORE ENGLISH.

I CAME FROM THIS DEAF SCHOOL,
OF COURSE,

WHERE IT WAS ALL ASL
ALL THE WAY, ALL THE TIME.

AND I GOT TO NTID,
THERE WAS MORE ENGLISH SIGNING,

AND I THINK THAT WAS
BECAUSE OF THE ACADEMIC
EDUCATIONAL INFLUENCE

AND INTRUSION OF ENGLISH.

WHEN I MOVED TO SWEDEN,

WHICH WAS IN 1991,

AND MADE THAT DECISION
TO MOVE,

AND OF COURSE, I HAD TO
JETTISON ASL FROM MY EXPRESSION,

AND I HAD TO LEARN A WHOLE
NEW SIGN LANGUAGE.

IT WAS LIKE STARTING ALL
OVER AGAIN, LEARNING
SWEDISH SIGN LANGUAGE.

VERY FRUSTRATING.

I COULDN'T COMMUNICATE IN
THE BEGINNING AT ALL.

PEOPLE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND ME.

TOOK A LOT OF WORK TO RAMP UP.

TOOK PROBABLY AROUND 4 YEARS

UNTIL THE QUALITY OF MY SIGNING
WAS SUCH

THAT I WOULD CALL MYSELF
FLUENT.

NOW, 8 YEARS AFTER
I MOVED THERE, I WAS FLUENT,

BUT I WATCHED MYSELF ON
SOME VIDEOS

FROM ABOUT 4 YEARS AFTER
I'D MOVED TO SWEDEN,

SO I'D HAD 4 YEARS OF
SWEDISH SIGN LANGUAGE
UNDER MY BELT,

AND IT WAS INTERESTING.

I STILL SAW SO MUCH
ASL INTRUSION.

I STILL HADN'T COMPLETELY
SWITCHED OVER

TO SWEDISH SIGN LANGUAGE.

NOW, OF COURSE, I HAVE.

BUT THE THING THAT I UNDERSTAND
FROM ALL THIS

IS THAT WHEN YOU ACQUIRE
A LANGUAGE,

YOU HAVE TO COGITATE ON IT,
YOU HAVE TO DIGEST IT

AND CHEW ON IT.

LANGUAGE IS JUST
AN AMAZING THING.

I SEE IT SO CLEARLY NOW.

AND WHEN I GO TO OTHER
COUNTRIES

AND I SEE ALL THE DIFFERENT
SIGN LANGUAGES IN EACH ONE,

I GET IT SO MUCH MORE THAN
I EVER DID BEFORE.

I TOOK LANGUAGE FOR GRANTED
BEFORE.

BUT NOW WHEN I OBJECTIVELY
LOOK AT LANGUAGES,

THE WAY IT WORKS--

LIKE FOR INSTANCE,

DANISH SIGN LANGUAGE
OR NORWEGIAN SIGN LANGUAGE

OR ICELANDIC
SIGN LANGUAGE,

LOOK AT ALL THE DIFFERENT
COUNTRIES

AND THE DIFFERENT SIGN LANGUAGES
THEY HAVE,

I REALIZE HOW INCREDIBLE
THEY ARE

AND HOW MUCH PLAY THERE IS
IN ALL OF THEM.

WHAT I DO IS I BORROW IDEAS
OR BORROW SIGNS

FROM ALL THESE DIFFERENT
LANGUAGES

I'VE BEEN EXPOSED TO, AND I ADD
THEM TO MY OWN LEXICON,

AND IT'S JUST FASCINATING.

AND I AM RICH IN LANGUAGE.

I HAVE A WEALTH OF LANGUAGE
WITHIN ME.

I THOUGHT IT WAS MORE
NATURAL THAN THAT.

WELL, ABC STORIES--

AT THE SCHOOL FOR THE DEAF,
OF COURSE,

WE HAD THEATER ARTS.

I HAD THIS ONE ENGLISH TEACHER

WHO HAD A BIG INFLUENCE ON ME.

THIS PERSON TAUGHT SHAKESPEARE.

I REMEMBER VERY CLEARLY
LEARNING ABOUT MACBETH.

THERE WERE FILMSTRIPS THAT WERE
SHOWN IN THE CLASSROOM.

SO THIS ENGLISH TEACHER WOULD
HAVE US READ THE CAPTIONS

ON THE FILMSTRIPS, AND WE WOULD
LEARN ABOUT GREEK THEATER.

WE LEARNED ABOUT FILMS.

AND THEY WERE SO ABSTRACT.

I HAD A LOT OF ART,
A LOT OF THEATER TRAINING.

YOU KNOW, EVERY NIGHT THERE
WAS NOTHING TO DO IN THE DORMS.

THERE WAS NO TV, NO INTERNET,

COMPUTERS HADN'T BEEN
INVENTED YET.

SO EVERY NIGHT THEY OFFERED
DIFFERENT COURSES

THAT YOU COULD TAKE.

LIKE TUESDAY NIGHTS THERE
WOULD BE A MIME CLASS.

AND SO SOME WELL-KNOWN MIME
WOULD COME

AND WOULD GIVE US A WORKSHOP
ON MIME.

THAT WAS WHEN I WAS ABOUT
13 OR 14 YEARS OLD,

WHEN I STARTED TO LEARN MIME
AND PERFORM IT.

AND I TOTALLY LOVED IT.

NOW, OF COURSE, OUR SCHOOL
BELIEVED IN SPEECH,

SO IF WE WERE IN A PLAY,
WE HAD TO TALK

AND ACT AT THE SAME TIME, RIGHT.

AND WHAT THEY WOULD DO
IS HAVE THE CAPTIONS

PROJECTED OVER THE TOP
OF THE STAGE

FOR PEOPLE TO READ.

BUT I COULDN'T PARTICIPATE
IN THAT

BECAUSE I COULDN'T TALK.

SO I WAS MORE OF A DANCER,
AND I WAS A MIME.

MIME WAS SOMETHING I COULD DO.

BODY LANGUAGE, THAT FIT ME
PERFECTLY.

SO I WAS HAPPY TO GET
INVOLVED WITH THAT.

AND IT ADDED TO MY
SKILL SET, I THINK.

THE CLOWN WORK I DID WAS
MUCH, MUCH LATER.

THAT WAS WHEN I WAS WITH FTD
IN CLEVELAND, OHIO--

THE FAIRMOUNT THEATER
FOR THE DEAF.

THAT WAS A PROFESSIONAL THEATER
COMPANY I WAS INVOLVED WITH.

SO BOTH OF THOSE EXPERIENCES
FROM SCHOOL

AND THE THEATRICAL BACKGROUND
INFORMED EACH OTHER.

YES.

I'M NOT SURE WHEN.

LET'S SEE. BUT MY FIRST
PERFORMANCE HERE

WAS WITH PAUL JOHNSTON.

HE WAS DIRECTING
COMMEDIA DELL'ARTE.

SO I WAS PERFORMING THAT.

AND I THINK THAT WAS
BEFORE 1980.

I WAS IN SUNSHINE TOO.
I WAS IN SUNSHINE TOO.

SO THIS WAS BEFORE I WAS EVEN
PART OF SUNSHINE TOO.

SO I WAS HERE,
I WAS INTO THE THEATER.

AND EVERYONE TOLD ME
I WAS AWESOME,

THEY APPLAUDED ME.

AND OF COURSE, I GREW UP ACTING
AND DANCING

AND PERFORMING.

I STARTED DANCING WHEN
I WAS 4 OR 5.

AND, OF COURSE, THAT WAS
INTERNALIZED WITH ME.

I WOULD BE WITH
ALL HEARING DANCERS.

OF COURSE, I WAS ALWAYS
LATE ON MY CUES,

BUT I DANCED ANYWAY.

BUT AS FOR THE THEATER
HERE AT NTID,

I REALLY WANTED TO BE
MORE INVOLVED WITH THOSE THINGS.

AND THEN I WENT TO AN NTD,
NATIONAL THEATER OF THE DEAF,

SUMMER SCHOOL IN 1980.

AND THEN I WAS IN THE CAST
OF THE FIRST SUNSHINE TOO GROUP,

THE FIRST YEAR IT WAS FORMED
IN 1980.

COMMEDIA DELL'ARTE.

THERE'S NO DIALOGUE IN THAT.

IT'S ALL BODY MOVEMENT.
IT'S ALL MIME.

LIKE, IF YOU WERE GONNA TALK
ABOUT MONEY,

YOU WOULD SHOW A BIG SACK
OF COINS OR WHAT HAVE YOU.

EVERYTHING WAS EXPLAINED
WITH MIME AND GESTURE.

NO SPEAKING,
NO DIALOGUE AT ALL.

IT'S COMMEDIA DELL'ARTE.

YEAH, A LOT OF MOVEMENT.

LATER...

LET'S SEE, THERE WAS
SUNSHINE TOO

AND THEN FTD, FAIRMOUNT
THEATER OF THE DEAF.

THAT'S WHEN I DID A LOT
MORE TRANSLATION

FROM SCRIPTS TO SIGN LANGUAGE.

THAT WAS IN CLEVELAND.

FAIRMOUNT THEATER FOR THE DEAF.

I DON'T KNOW OF IT'S STILL
RUNNING OR NOT.

WE TRANSLATED A LOT.

AND I LEARNED A LOT MORE

ABOUT THE TRANSLATION
PROCESS FROM THAT,

UNDERSTOOD MORE ABOUT HOW TO
GO ABOUT TRANSLATION.

YEAH, THAT'S ANOTHER STORY.

THAT'S ANOTHER PART OF
MY HISTORY.

I HAD AN INTERNSHIP

WITH THE THEATER DEPARTMENT
HERE.

AND I TOOK A CREATIVE
SIGN LANGUAGE CLASS

AND A DEAF LITERATURE CLASS
WITH BOB PANARA...

AND THEN ACTING CLASSES AND ALL
THAT SORT OF THING.

NOW, AT THAT TIME,

LET'S SEE, PATRICK--
I THINK IT WAS PATRICK,

SOME OTHER DEAF FOLKS,
AND I DON'T REMEMBER--

DENNIS WEBSTER, I THINK, TOO,
WAS INVOLVED IN THIS.

WE WOULD GO DOWN TO THE CELLAR,

AND THEY HAD A STAGE THERE.

AND THIS WAS PREVIOUS TO 1985.
IT WAS BEFORE THEN.

AND EVERY TUESDAY NIGHT,

EVERYBODY WOULD GO TO
THE CELLAR,

AND WE WOULD TAKE TURNS DOING
SOME CREATIVE SIGN LANGUAGE

SKITS AND PERFORMANCES.

TOM HOLCOMB, I REMEMBER
WAS THERE,

AND HE WAS ANNOUNCING THAT
FINALLY DEAF STUDIES

WAS GETTING GOING.

THAT WAS, YOU KNOW,
A REALLY BIG ANNOUNCEMENT

BECAUSE IT HADN'T
EXISTED BEFORE.

AND I WENT, AND I WAS IN
THAT GROUP, TOO,

SO I GOT TO PERFORM.
AND PATRICK SAID TO ME,

"YOU'RE SIGNING TOO ENGLISH."

I SAID, "TOO ENGLISH? ME?"

HE SAID, "WELL, HOW DO YOU
CREATE YOUR STUFF?"

AND I SAID, "WELL, I WRITE
IT DOWN FIRST."

AND FROM HIM, I LEARNED THAT
I SHOULD PUT THE ENGLISH

ASIDE COMPLETELY, AND I SHOULD
LOOK AT HANDSHAPES

AND PLAY AROUND WITH
THE DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES OF ASL.

THAT WAS FASCINATING TO ME.

THAT'S WHEN I STARTED
TO UNDERSTAND WHAT
ASL POETRY MIGHT BE

AND THAT WRITING POEMS WAS
A HEARING SORT OF ENTERPRISE.

AND I WAS FINDING THAT
I NEEDED TO CHANGE

TO THINKING ABOUT
SIGNING FIRST,

BECAUSE HOW WOULD I SHOW
THE ART OF A POEM IN SIGN

IF IT STARTED WITH
A WRITTEN VERSION?

IT DIDN'T SEEM LIKE THAT
WAS GOING TO WORK.

IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO CREATE
A POEM IN SIGN LANGUAGE.

IT WAS FASCINATING TO WATCH
THAT WORK

AND TO START PLAYING AROUND
WITH IT MYSELF.

AND I STARTED THEN, AND I'M
STILL DOING IT NOW.

AND I FEEL THAT NOW I'M EVEN
MORE OF A POET THAN I EVER WAS,

AND I'M MORE INTO POETRY THAN
I'VE EVER BEEN.

YEP, WRITTEN.

BECAUSE I FELT THAT--

WELL, I'VE ALWAYS FELT THAT
WRITING POETRY

IS MY THERAPY.

IT STARTED WHEN I FELL IN LOVE
WITH THIS HEARING MAN,

AND I WAS CRAZY ABOUT THIS GUY,
FELL HARD.

AND HE KIND OF SAID,
"NOPE, SORRY.

YOU'RE DEAF.
AIN'T GONNA WORK."

THAT JUST TORE ME APART,
HONESTLY.

I JUST FELT LIKE IF I'D BEEN
HEARING,

WE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOGETHER,
BUT THAT WAS IMPOSSIBLE.

HE SAID, "I CAN'T.
"I'D FEEL LIKE A GOLDFISH.

"I'D FEEL LIKE I WAS SWIMMING
IN A GOLDFISH BOWL

IF WE WERE TOGETHER."

I THOUGHT, "A GOLDFISH?"

AND I JUST IMAGINED THAT IMAGE,
WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO SAY.

AND THE MINUTE I UNDERSTOOD

WHAT IMAGE HE WAS TRYING
TO EVOKE,

I WENT HOME AND I WROTE A POEM,

AND IT FELT SO MUCH BETTER
TO GET THAT OUT.

I FELT AS IF IT WAS
THERAPEUTIC TO ME.

AND SO WHEN SOMETHING HITS ME
A CERTAIN WAY OR AFFECTS ME,

I FEEL LIKE I HAVE TO DO THAT,

I HAVE TO WRITE SOMETHING DOWN.

THERE'S CURRENT EVENTS,
SOMETHING IN THE NEWSPAPER,

SOMETHING IN A SITUATION
IN MY LIFE

THAT'S AFFECTING ME
IN SOME WAY,

IT SPARKS DIFFERENT
CREATIVE IDEAS IN ME,

AND IT'S MY THERAPY TO SOMEHOW
PUT THEM OUT IN POETRY.

YES, RIGHT.

I WAS NEVER VERY GOOD
AT ENGLISH,

BUT I'M A FLUENT SIGNER.

AND SO THAT MEANS THAT
MY ART,

WHEN I TRIED TO WRITE SOMETHING,

I WOULD HAVE TO ASK SOMEBODY
ELSE FOR THEIR FEEDBACK

TO TELL ME IF IT WAS
RIGHT OR NOT.

THEREFORE, IT'S NOT REALLY
MY ART

IF I NEED SOMEBODY ELSE
TO GIVE IT CREDIBILITY

AND SAY, "NO, YOU HAVE TO FIX
THIS OR CHANGE THIS."

WHERE'S THE ART IN THAT?

BUT WITH SIGN LANGUAGE,
NOBODY CAN TELL ME I'M WRONG.

THAT'S MY STUFF, MY TURF,
MY LANGUAGE,

AND NOBODY CAN CRITICIZE ME.

AND THAT'S GREAT.

SO I DECIDED ENGLISH IS NOT
THE WAY I NEEDED TO GO.

I SHOULD CONCENTRATE ON
WHERE MY STRENGTHS LIE

AND CREATE IN SIGN LANGUAGE
AND PLAY WITH THAT.

IT'S BEEN FANTASTIC.

NO. A MIXTURE.

I WAS PLAYING WITH LANGUAGE,

PLAYING WITH
THE LANGUAGE ITSELF--

ABC STORIES, HANDSHAPES...

STORYTELLING, JOKES,

ALL DIFFERENT SORTS
OF GENRES OF LITERATURE

AND SIGN LANGUAGE.

I STARTED OUT WITH POETRY

BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WAS
INTERESTING TO ME AT THE TIME,

THE ART OF THE POEM ITSELF,

HOW TO STRUCTURE IT,
HOW TO SIGN IT.

I FOUND THAT REALLY INTERESTING
AT THE TIME.

YES.

I WAS LEARNING FROM
PATRICK GRAYBILL,

FROM CLASSES I WAS TAKING
FROM HIM IN CREATIVE LANGUAGE,

AND IN THERE HE EXPLAINED MORE
ABOUT HANDSHAPES

AND THE WORD CHOICES YOU
WOULD EMPLOY

AND KEEPING THINGS SIMPLE.

AND THE POEMS WOULD GROW
FROM THOSE STRUCTURAL ELEMENTS.

HMM, AT THAT TIME, WELL...

YEAH, IN THE BEGINNING,
I DON'T THINK

THAT WAS MUCH OF AN INFLUENCE.

I THINK IT WAS A NEW IDEA
TO ME.

BUT LATER, AROUND 1980,

WHEN I WAS INVOLVED
WITH SUNSHINE TOO,

I WAS TRANSLATING POEMS
FROM DOROTHY MILES.

THERE WAS A POEM
CALLED "SKUNK."

AND I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT
HOW TO SIGN IT.

I THOUGHT IF I COULD DO IT IN
ENGLISH, THAT WOULD BE FINE,

BUT I WANTED TO DO
SOMETHING ELSE.

I FELT THAT I NEEDED
TO BECOME A POET,

BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN
OVERNIGHT.

IT TOOK A WHILE TO DEVELOP
AS A POET.

I HAD TO PICK UP THOSE SKILLS
ALONG THE WAY,

AND IT TOOK YEARS.

THE ART HAD TO MORPH.

YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE
IF SOMEBODY PAINTS.

YOU KNOW, THE FIRST TIME
YOU PAINT,

IT'S VERY NAIVE AND, YOU KNOW,
RUDIMENTARY,

AND IT TAKES YEARS TO BECOME
MORE SOPHISTICATED AT THAT ART.

IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME THING
WITH POETRY.

AND NOW I FEEL EXTREMELY ADEPT
AT IT,

BUT I LOOK AT MY YOUNGER WORK,

AND IT LOOKS LIKE
YOUNGER WORK.

I HAD SO MANY INFLUENCES
OVER THE YEARS.

HARD TO NAME THEM ALL.

I WOULD START WITH PATRICK,
OF COURSE,

AND THEN BOB PANARA

BECAUSE I TOOK HIS
DEAF LITERATURE CLASS

AND HE TALKED ABOUT TRANSLATION

AND HOW TO MOVE FROM
A TEXT TO A SIGNED RENDITION

SUPPOSE OF HAIKU AND--
OH, WHAT WAS THE OTHER ONE?

"SPOON RIVER."
"SPOON RIVER," YEP.

WE LEARNED FROM THAT TEXT.

SO WE WERE USING LITERATURE
AS A STIMULUS MATERIAL

TO SIGN CREATIVELY.

LITERATURE...

I THINK LITERATURE IS CEREBRAL,
IT'S FROM THE MIND.

BUT REALLY,
IT'S TELLING STORIES

AND TELLING THE HISTORY
OF A PEOPLE.

IT'S FASCINATING REALLY

THAT SOMETHING CAN HAPPEN
IN SOCIETY,

SOMETHING COULD OCCUR,
SOMEONE PUTS IT DOWN,

AND THEN IT BECOMES
AN HISTORICAL ARTIFACT.

I JUST FIND THAT'S INTERESTING,

AND THAT'S HOW LITERATURE
EVOLVES.

SO LATER,

I MET PETER COOK.

AND HE, AS I, WAS A MAJOR
IN GRAPHIC DESIGN.

I WAS A LITTLE OLDER
THAN HE WAS,

BUT WE WERE BOTH AT RIT.

AND THERE WERE A LOT OF FOLKS
IN NTID AT THE TIME

WHO WERE EXPERIMENTING WITH
LOOKING AT MOVIES.

AND YOU MIGHT THINK IT'S FUNNY
CALLING MOVIES,

YOU KNOW, A KIND OF POETIC
ART FORM, BUT...

RIT AND THE ART DEPARTMENT,

IF THERE WERE PAINTINGS
I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND,

I WAS GETTING MORE EXPOSURE
TO ART CLASSES

WHERE WE WERE DISCUSSING THEM
AND ANALYZING ART.

AND IT JUST BECAME
SO CLEAR TO ME

THAT IT WAS AN ART FORM,
THAT POETRY COULD BE.

THEN I MET STEFA WHO WAS
THE DANCE TEACHER, STEFA Z.

THERE WAS ANOTHER TEACHER
BEFORE HER.

I CAN'T REMEMBER.
HER LAST NAME WAS KALA, MAYBE.

ANYWAY, I CAN'T REMEMBER
HER NAME,

BUT SHE WAS A PERFORMING ARTS
AND DANCE TEACHER ALSO.

AND SO I WAS LEARNING
MORE ABOUT DANCE

AND HOW LANGUAGE WAS ACTUALLY
A FORM OF DANCE AS WELL.

LANGUAGE IS A DANCE.

THE WAY YOU COULD SHOW MAYBE
EVEN A LEAF FALLING

COULD BE A DANCE MOVEMENT.

I WAS REALLY STRUCK
BY THAT,

THAT MY BODY ACTUALLY IS A FORM
OF THE DANCE

AND THE LANGUAGE PUT TOGETHER,

AND THAT WHOLE PROCESS
COULD BE CONCURRENT.

STEFA, THE DANCE TEACHER,
WOULD INTRODUCE A DANCE TO US,

AND THERE WAS THIS
ONE PERFORMANCE

WHERE THERE WAS A VAT
OF WATER ON STAGE

AND SHE WAS JUST TWIRLING AROUND

IN A STAGE LIGHT
OFF TO THE SIDE.

I WATCHED THIS PERFORMANCE.
THERE'S A VAT OF WATER,

AND I'M WATCHING HER
TWIRL AROUND

AT THE SAME TIME
ON THE STAGE.

NOTHING ELSE IS REALLY
GOING ON.

SHE'S JUST TWIRLING AROUND
AND AROUND AND AROUND

IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

AND IT REALLY JUST WASHED
ALL OVER ME,

THE EXPERIENCE OF WHAT
THIS WAS.

I CAN'T SAY I UNDERSTOOD IT,

BUT UNDERSTANDING
WASN'T THE POINT.

IT WAS THE EXPERIENCE
OF BEING THERE,

BEING PRESENT THERE.

I UNDERSTOOD THE WAY I COULD
PERHAPS DEVELOP MY ART.

NOT REALLY.

MY EARLY POETRY...

I WOULDN'T SAY YOU COULD
CALL IT ART.

MAYBE IT WAS, I DON'T KNOW,
STORIES

OR--I MEAN, PEOPLE
UNDERSTOOD IT,

BUT NOW PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND
MY WORK AT ALL.

NOWADAYS THEY REALLY DON'T.

IT'S THE SAME AS
A WRITTEN POEM, RIGHT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE READ IT
AND THEY DON'T GET IT

THE MOMENT THEY READ IT.

THEY HAVE TO ENGAGE
WITH IT MORE.

IT'S THE SAME WITH MY WORK NOW.

I THINK IT'S MORE
SOPHISTICATED POETRY

THAN I USED TO PERFORM,

AND I DO ALL SORTS.

HOW IT DEVELOPS.

IF I WANTED TO GIVE YOU
AN EXAMPLE,

MY POEM "SWAN" FROM BACK
IN THE DAY.

YEP, YOU COULD LOOK AT IT
AND SAY,

"OK, I GET IT.
THAT'S A SWAN,

AND IT'S A BEAUTIFUL POEM."

BUT THERE'S REALLY MORE
ABSTRACT CONCEPTS

THAT COULD BE EMPLOYED IN IT.

BUT THAT ONE DIDN'T.

IT WAS JUST A PRETTY IMAGE.

AND I WANTED TO HAVE
MORE EMBEDDED ABSTRACT IDEAS

AND NUANCE WITHIN MY ART.

I WANTED THE AUDIENCE
TO APPRECIATE THE ART

AND THE EXPERIENCE OF
SEEING IT,

BUT WHEN I WAS THINKING ABOUT
DEAF PEOPLE

WHO HISTORICALLY HAVE BEEN LEFT
OUT OF THE ARTISTIC PROCESS--

SOMETIMES THEY COULDN'T
FOLLOW PERFORMANCES

OR UNDERSTAND THINGS.

THEY MISSED THE POINT OF THINGS.

IT'S VERY FRUSTRATING FOR THEM

BECAUSE OF THESE YEARS
OF BEING LEFT OUT OF THIS.

SO I FEEL THE EXPERIENCE
IS THE INSPIRING PART

OF BEING PART OF A PERFORMANCE
AND WATCHING IT.

IF THERE'S SORROW OR HURT OR JOY
OR WHATEVER,

YOU WANT THAT EXPERIENCE
TO BE CONVEYED.

I THINK IT'S REALLY WORTHWHILE
TO MAKE THAT ATTEMPT.

AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT
TO PUT THAT ENERGY OUT THERE

AND GET THOSE EMOTIONS OUT.

BUT OFTENTIMES, PEOPLE
DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

I HAD ALREADY HAD A LOT OF
POSITIVE EXPERIENCES

FROM PERFORMING AT JAZZBERRY'S.

THERE WAS SO MANY DEAF
AND HEARING PEOPLE

WHO WERE MIXING IN THOSE
AUDIENCES.

A GREAT EXCHANGE OF IDEAS

FROM THAT REALLY SOCIAL SPACE
THAT WAS DEAF AND HEARING.

THE FEW TIMES I PERFORMED THERE,

ONE TIME I DID WITH
HOWIE SEAGO.

HE WAS THERE.
PETER COOK WAS THERE.

PATRICK, VALLI, CLAYTON VALLI.

JUST EVERYBODY TOGETHER.

AND THEY REALLY APPRECIATED
WHAT I WAS DOING.

THEN I MOVED.
I MOVED TO SWEDEN.

MY POETRY CHANGED AS A RESULT
OF THAT MOVE.

AND I THOUGHT WHILE I WAS
IN SWEDEN

THAT EVERYTHING WOULD
KEEP GROWING HERE.

THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT.
SO I WENT ON MY MERRY WAY.

AND WHEN I CAME BACK TO VISIT,

I WAS LOOKING FOR MORE
POETRY.

PETER COOK HAD MOVED
TO CHICAGO AND...

THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE
I KNEW,

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T
KNOW WHO I WAS.

THEY'RE LIKE, "OH, YOU'RE
DEBBIE RENNIE? WHO ARE YOU?"

OH. WELL, I HADN'T LIVED
HERE FOR A LONG TIME.

WHY WOULD I EXPECT THEY WOULD
KNOW WHO I WAS?

BUT SOMEHOW I THOUGHT
THEY WOULD.

I DID GET TAPED DOING
SOME PERFORMANCES.

AND I THINK THAT COSTUME CHANGES
WERE A PART

OF THAT PERFORMANCE,
THE POEMS.

I DON'T NECESSARILY WANT
TO SPOON-FEED PEOPLE

DURING MY PERFORMANCES

AND GIVE THEM SO MUCH
EXPOSITION

ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON.

"OH, YOU KNOW, I'M
TALKING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED

"IN THIS COUNTRY.

"A HUNDRED MEN RAPED
A MENTALLY RETARDED WOMAN.

ISN'T THAT AWFUL?"
AND THEN EXPLAIN IT.

I JUST WANT TO PUT
THE PIECE OUT THERE.

BUT THE AUDIENCE WANTS
TO ASK QUESTIONS SOMETIMES,

AND SO THEN I HAVE TO BE
WILLING TO DO THAT.

SO AFTER I PERFORMED
BACK IN THE DAY,

I WOULD SAY, "ARE THERE
ANY QUESTIONS?"

ONE TIME THIS DEAF MAN STOOD UP
AND HE SAID,

"I DON'T UNDERSTAND A THING
YOU'RE DOING,

"AND I'M SURE THAT 90% OF US

DON'T UNDERSTAND YOU
IN THIS AUDIENCE."

AND I WAS SO TAKEN ABACK
BY THAT.

OK, ALL RIGHT, I GET IT,
YOU'RE FRUSTRATED.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO
UNDERSTAND THESE SORTS
OF THINGS,

SAME THING AS READING
A BOOK,

AND YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT
IN THE MOMENT.

YOU HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH IT.
I DO GET IT.

SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO READ
SOMETHING AGAIN AND AGAIN

UNTIL THE MEANING BECOMES CLEAR
AND YOU APPRECIATE ITS ART.

AND IT'S THE SAME HERE
WITH PERFORMANCE,

AND SO DISCUSSION'S
REALLY GREAT.

SO I ASKED HIM, YOU KNOW,
"WHAT THE MEANING OF ORANGE?"

HE KIND OF COULDN'T ANSWER,

AND THEN OTHER PEOPLE STARTED
KIND OF JUMPING

INTO THE DISCUSSION

AND THEN OTHER QUESTIONS
WERE ASKED.

AND I THINK THAT IT WAS GREAT
BECAUSE AS WE WERE ABLE

TO HAVE THIS DIALOGUE,
MORE PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD
THE IDEA OF ART

AND WHAT POETRY WAS.

AND PETER COOK WAS SO RELIEVED
THAT THIS WAS GOING ON

BECAUSE THE FUROR DIED DOWN
AND EVERYBODY CALMED DOWN,

BUT IT WAS REALLY
KIND OF FUNNY.

AND THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN ONCE.

I MEAN, THIS WAS SOMETHING
RECURRENT.

AND I EXPERIENCED THIS
IN EUROPE, TOO,

AUDIENCES BEING VERY FRUSTRATED,

NOT UNDERSTANDING
WHAT I WAS DOING,

WANTING TO TALK AFTERWARDS
OR HAVE A WORKSHOP.

AND SO SOMETIMES
I WOULD PROVIDE A WORKSHOP

AND WE'D HAVE
THESE DISCUSSIONS,

THEN THEY WOULD SEE MY WORK
AND UNDERSTAND IT BETTER.

AND THROUGH THAT PROCESS,
THEY UNDERSTOOD MORE

OF WHAT I WAS UP TO.

IT WAS REALLY A GOOD THING
OVERALL.

YES.

I WAS SO FORTUNATE THAT
I MOVED TO SWEDEN

BECAUSE THEY REALLY
BELIEVE IN ME THERE.

IT'S GREAT.
THEY BELIEVE IN ME.

IT WASN'T EASY.
WHEN I FIRST GOT THERE,

"OH, WHO'S THIS AMERICAN?
WHAT ARE YOU ALL ABOUT?

ONE OF THOSE EGOTISTICAL
AMERICANS AGAIN."

BUT I HAD TO BE VERY PATIENT,

WORK REALLY HARD,
AND SHOW THEM WHO I WAS.

STARTED OUT TEACHING CHILDREN,

AND THEN OVER TIME AS MY
TEACHING GREW AND MY NAME GREW

OVER THE YEARS, THEY FINALLY
KNEW WHO I WAS AS POET.

NOT AS AN ACTOR.
I'M KNOW THERE AS A POET.

THAT'S FUNNY BECAUSE HERE
I'M KNOWN MORE AS AN ACTRESS,

YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S KIND OF
WHAT I WAS KNOWN FOR

IN THE STATES, BUT OVER THERE,
I'M KNOWN AS A POET.

NOW, I STARTED,
LET'S SEE, 1996

DEVELOPING
AN EDUCATIONAL VIDEO.

AND THIS VIDEO IS USED
IN ALL THE SCHOOLS FOR THE DEAF

IN SWEDEN TO TEACH DEAF
CHILDREN SIGN LANGUAGE

AND POETRY.

THE CURRICULUM EMBEDS POETRY
WITHIN IT.

THEY FEEL THAT...

SWEDISH DEAF CHILDREN NEED
TO LEARN SIGN LANGUAGE POETRY

IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE
THE SAME WAY THEY HAVE TO

READ WRITTEN SWEDISH POETRY

AND THE SAME WAY WE DO THAT
WITH ENGLISH HERE.

SO ALL THE SCHOOLS FOR THE DEAF
IN SWEDEN

ACTUALLY USE THIS CURRICULUM,

AND IN THE VIDEO IS MY WORK.

HAVING CREATED THIS DVD,

THE TEACHERS USE IT,

THEY SHOW THE POEMS,
THEY DISCUSS WITH KIDS,

AND IT'S REALLY AMAZING.

FROM TEACHING JUST A CLASS
AT A TIME,

NOW THERE ARE 5 SCHOOLS
FOR THE DEAF IN SWEDEN

ALL OVER THE COUNTRY WHO UTILIZE
THIS DVD

WITH A WHOLE UNIT ABOUT
SIGN LANGUAGE POETRY WITHIN IT,

AND THAT'S JUST SO COOL.

THAT'S A REAL POSITIVE
DEVELOPMENT.

AND SO IT MEANS THAT POETRY
IS STILL ALIVE THERE,

AND IT'S NOT GOING TO DIE.

THAT'S GREAT.

YEAH, IDENTITY IS
REALLY CRUCIAL.

I THINK THAT SOMETIMES
SIGN LANGUAGE QUALITY--

AND I USE THIS SIGN
FOR QUALITY.

RATHER THAN A "Q" ON
THE CHEST, I USE THIS SIGN

BECAUSE QUALITY,
TO SIGN ANYWAY,

IS MORE OF A TACTILE FEELING.

LIKE AN EXAMPLE OF IT
WOULD BE

IN AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE
YOU MIGHT SIGN "A BALL HIT ME."

YOU MIGHT SIGN THE BALL THIS WAY
OR THIS WAY

OR THIS WAY.

AND YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE

IN WHAT THOSE BALLS
WOULD LOOK LIKE

HITTING ME IN THE HEAD
BY THE DIFFERENT SIGNS I USE.

AND I FEEL THOSE NUANCES
ARE BEING LOST SOMEHOW.

I THINK THAT SPEECH IS ALWAYS
MORE IMPORTANT,

AS PREFERABLE TO SIGN.

IN SWEDEN,

THEY HAVE A VERY STRONG IDEA
THAT SWEDISH SIGN LANGUAGE

AND WRITTEN AND SPOKEN SWEDISH
ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE.

THEY THINK THEY'RE EQUAL
SOMEWHAT.

WELL, IT WILL BE INTERESTING
TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS

OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS,
WHETHER THEY'RE SEEN AS EQUAL

OR IF THE SIGN LANGUAGE WILL
BE MAYBE DEMEANED A LITTLE BIT,

BUT THE QUALITY OF
THE SIGNING IS RESPECTED

FOR THIS MOMENT ANYWAY,

AND IT'S VERY MUCH TIED
INTO THE NOTION

OF ONE'S IDENTITY.

WITH COCHLEAR IMPLANTS,

I KNOW MANY PEOPLE WHO
HAVE THEM

AND THEY STILL SIGN
AT THE SAME TIME.

SEEMS LIKE 50% OF THEM SIGN
AND 50% DON'T.

THERE'S A LOT OF KIDS
WHO CAN TALK

WHO HAVE COCHLEAR IMPLANTS,

BUT THEY STILL PREFER
TO SIGN.

AND THEY'LL SIGN IN SWEDISH
SIGN LANGUAGE, OF COURSE.

MY DAUGHTER IS DEAF.

SHE DOES NOT HAVE
A COCHLEAR IMPLANT,
AND SHE SIGNS,

AND HER SIGN LANGUAGE QUALITY,
HOW SHE SIGNS

IS QUITE DIFFERENT BECAUSE
SHE DOESN'T SPEAK

AND SHE DOESN'T HAVE
A COCHLEAR IMPLANT.

IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE
IF YOU HAVE DEAF PARENTS OR NOT.

SO A LOT OF DEAF PARENTS
SOMETIMES STILL
IMPLANT THEIR KIDS,

BUT THEY'RE SIGNING AT HOME,
AND THEY HAVE BOTH.

SO THE SWEDISH INTRUSION
ON THE LANGUAGE

WILL STILL BE THERE,
BUT THEY'RE STILL SIGNING.

I THINK THAT IT DEPENDS ON
WHO THE PERSON IS.

IT'S VERY INDIVIDUAL.

BUT SOMETIMES THE ART
IS LOST

BY HAVING MORE OF THE WRITTEN
AND SPOKEN LANGUAGE OVERLAID.

SO IT MEANS THAT THERE ARE
FEWER POEMS

BEING CREATED ALL OVER
THE WORLD.

YES.

I FEEL MY IDENTITY

IS VERY MUCH TIED TO
MY POETRY.

I CAN SIGN JUST PROSAICALLY
MY EVERYDAY SIGN LANGUAGE,

AND IT'S VERY DIFFERENT
THAN THE PROCESS

OF BECOMING A POET

BECAUSE THROUGH POETRY I'VE
FOUND SO MUCH MORE RICHNESS.

I MEAN, ASL OR ANY SIGN
LANGUAGE, IT'S INCREDIBLE.

YOU KNOW, THE OLD IDEA BEFORE,

LIKE, "OH, YOU'RE SIGNING
WELL ENOUGH.

SIGN'S OK. IT'S JUST FUNCTIONAL.
WHATEVER."

YOU DON'T REALIZE IT'S
A HEAD-TO-TOE LANGUAGE.

I MEAN, EVERY PIECE OF
YOUR BODY SCREAMS SIGN LANGUAGE.

THE WAY YOU WOULD SIGN
A PERSON STANDING,

BUT THEN YOU COULD HAVE THEM
MOVING AROUND.

IT'S THE SAME WAY THAT PEOPLE
USE INTONATION

WHEN THEY SPEAK ENGLISH
OR THEY SPEAK ANY LANGUAGE.

IT'S SO ICONIC.
THERE'S SO MANY PICTURES.

I CAN BUILD A MOUNTAIN
AND STAND ON TOP OF IT,

THEN I CAN MOVE THAT DOWN
AND SHOW ANOTHER CAMERA ANGLE

THAT'S EVEN WITH THE PERSON
ON TOP

OF THE PINNACLE OF
THAT MOUNTAIN.

I KIND OF FEEL LIKE, "I'M DEAF,
SO WHAT?"

IT'S PART OF MY IDENTITY.

AND IDENTITY FOR ME IS VERY MUCH
TIED TO THE POETRY

THAT I CREATE, WHICH IS GREAT.

I'M DEAF. YEAH, OK.
IT'S A PROBLEM.

IT HAPPENS. SO WHAT?

I THINK THAT EVERY PERSON HAS
SOME SORT OF DIFFICULTY

IN THEIR LIFE, DOESN'T MATTER
WHO THEY ARE.

BUT I FEEL FINE ABOUT
BEING DEAF.

I WANT TO PROUDLY SHOW THAT.
I DON'T NEED SYMPATHY FOR IT.

SO MY IDENTITY AND MY POETRY,

THEY'RE TIED TOGETHER,

AND I FEEL THAT I CAN USE THOSE
TO SHOW MORE TO DEAF PEOPLE

ABOUT HOW THEY CAN FEEL
PRIDE AS WELL.

I FEEL PRIDE MYSELF
AS A DEAF PERSON,

AND I CAN SHARE THAT.

JIM COHN. WELL, HA HA!

HE DID HAVE INFLUENCE
ON ME, FOR SURE.

HIS ART WAS WRITTEN,
OF COURSE,

THE WAY HE CREATED POETRY.

HOW DID I MEET HIM?

I REMEMBER THAT HE WAS
WITH DONNA,

AND THE TWO OF THEM WERE
IN THAT BREEZEWAY

BETWEEN BUILDING 7A AND 7B.

I THINK THAT THEY WERE
COMING DOWN THE RAMP,

AND IT WAS SO BEAUTIFUL.

THEY WERE COMING DOWN THIS RAMP
TOGETHER,

AND THEY'RE BOTH JUST SUCH
BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE.

AND DONNA HAD THAT AMAZING,
BRILLIANT SMILE.

AND SHE AND JIM WERE
WALKING TOWARDS ME.

AND THEY WERE JUST SO BEAUTIFUL.

AND WE STARTED TALKING. THEY
SAID, "OH, YOU'RE A PERFORMER?"

I SAID YES.

AND, "WHAT'S YOUR WORK LIKE?"

I MEAN, I STILL HAVE THAT
PICTURE IN MY MIND

OF THAT DAY, SEEING THEM
APPROACHING ME.

I THINK ALL OF US WENT TO
WRITERS AND BOOKS.

IT'S NOT WHERE WRITERS AND BOOKS
IS NOW.

IT WAS AT THIS OTHER PLACE,
THEIR PREVIOUS LOCATION.

YEAH, IT WAS WRITERS
AND BOOKS, FOR SURE.

IT WAS IN ANOTHER PLACE.

IT WASN'T WHERE THEY'RE
LOCATED NOW.

AND THERE WAS THIS
BIG AUDIENCE.

AND WE WERE WAITING AND WAITING
AND WAITING

FOR JIM TO COME, 'CAUSE I WAS
GONNA LISTEN TO HIM--

WATCH HIM TO READ,
AND I'M KIND OF CONFUSED,

LIKE, "WHY ARE WE WAITING?"

I DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND
THAT--

NOT UNTIL MUCH LATER
LOOKING BACK,

BUT THAT WAS JIM, AND IT MADE
PERFECT SENSE

THAT WE WERE WAITING.

BUT HE WAS NERVOUS.
HE WAS OUT THERE SMOKING.

AND HE FINALLY SAUNTERS UP
TO THE STAGE,

YOU KNOW, STARTS GETTING
HIS MIKE READY AND READING,

AND IT WAS SO INTERESTING.
IT WAS GREAT.

THERE WAS AN INTERPRETER THERE.

I CAN'T REMEMBER
WHICH INTERPRETER
IT WAS FROM BACK THEN.

WHOEVER IT WAS INTERPRETED
HIS POETRY READING,

AND IT WAS JUST AMAZING.

I CAN'T SAY I UNDERSTOOD IT.

BUT THE EXPERIENCE, AGAIN,
NOT UNDERSTANDING,

BUT JUST THE FEELING OF IT
WAS REALLY PROFOUND.

SO LATER, OVER TIME,

HE WOULD COME AND ASK ME
ONCE IN A WHILE,

YOU KNOW, "WHY DON'T YOU
TAPE YOUR WORK? COME ON."

I WAS RESISTANT.
I DIDN'T WANT TO.

I WAS REALLY AFRAID THAT
SOMEBODY ELSE

MIGHT EVEN COPY MY WORK,

AND I DIDN'T WANT THAT.

REALLY, NOBODY CAN COPY
MY WORK,

BUT THAT'S WHAT I WAS
WORRIED ABOUT BACK THEN.

HE WAS COMING UP WITH
PUBLICATIONS AT THE TIME,

AND HE HAD THIS ONE BOOK,

AND IT WAS FEATURING PATRICK,
PETER, AND ME,

AND HE WANTED US TO WRITE
OUR POEMS.

WE HAD EACH WRITTEN A FEW POEMS
THAT HE WAS PUBLISHING.

WE EACH HAD A COLUMN ARRAYED
NEXT TO EACH OTHER

IN THIS BOOK,

PUT IN LIKE A SERIES.

AND JIM ORGANIZED THIS.

I WAS SO HONORED THAT HE WANTED
TO INCLUDE ME IN THIS

BECAUSE I DIDN'T TEND TO WRITE
MY POEMS.

IT WASN'T MY ART.

SO I THOUGHT IT INTERESTING
THAT HE WANTED ME

TO WRITE IT DOWN IN
A WRITTEN FORMAT.

AND THEN HE'S THE ONE WHO GOT
THE WHOLE

NATIONAL DEAF POETRY
CONFERENCE GOING,

FIRST ASL POETRY CONFERENCE.

AND THAT HAD A HUGE IMPACT
ON ME.

WE WERE TRYING
TO SHOW EVERYBODY

WHAT WE WERE DOING
AND WHAT ASL POETRY WAS.

AND PEOPLE CAME FROM ALL OVER.

WE HAD DISCUSSIONS.

ELLA MAE LENTZ WAS THERE,
VALLI WAS THERE...

PATRICK, ME.

I DON'T THINK HOWIE SEAGO
WAS THERE.

HE WASN'T IN IT.

I THINK HOWIE SEAGO WAS WITH
CHAZ.

HE WAS PERFORMING WITH CHAZ.

THEY HAD SORT OF A NIGHTCLUB
ROUTINE THING

THAT THEY WERE DOING.

THEY WEREN'T PART OF THIS.

LET'S SEE, 3, 4, 5 OF US.

RIGHT, THERE WAS THE 5
OF US THERE.

AND IT FELT LIKE FINALLY WE HAD
FOUND EACH OTHER.

WE ALL WERE SO EXCITED TO HAVE
FOUND EACH OTHER,

ALL THESE POETS.

CLAYTON VALLI BELIEVED IN ME.

IT WAS AMAZING.
HE SAW ME AS A POET

AND WHAT I WAS DOING
AS LITERARY,

AND HE VALIDATED ME.

I WAS SO FORTUNATE
TO HAVE HIM.

NOW, HE WAS A LINGUIST,
OF COURSE.

AND HE WAS TRYING TO PROVE
THAT ASL HAD POETRY...

AND THAT POETRY COULD BE PART
OF ASL,

AND THIS WASN'T JUST THIS
CRAZY FLY-BY-NIGHT IDEA

WE WERE COMING UP WITH,

THAT HE HAD LINGUISTIC
VALIDATION.

IT'S SO SAD THAT HE'S GONE,
THAT WE LOST HIM.

HE WAS A VERY IMPORTANT
PERSON TO ME.

I WANT TO TELL YOU,
IN SWEDEN IT WAS NOT EASY

TO GET A POETRY SCENE
GOING THERE.

IN STOCKHOLM,
THE UNIVERSITY THERE,

THE DEAF PEOPLE THERE
BASICALLY SAID,

"I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT.
WE DON'T WANT TO KNOW

ANYTHING ABOUT THIS
POETRY THING."

THERE WAS NO RESPECT FOR IT.
THERE WAS NO BELIEF IN IT.

NOT AT ALL. SO IT WASN'T EASY
TO GET THAT IDEA GOING

AND GIVE IT SOME TRACTION.

THERE WAS A PERSON
FROM STOCKHOLM UNIVERSITY

WHO ACTUALLY CAME AND SAW
VALLI PERFORM

AND ACTUALLY SAW HIM GIVE
A LECTURE ONE TIME.

THEY ASKED VALLI, "WHO IS
A TRUE POET

IN YOUR ESTIMATION,
A SIGN POET?"

AND HE NAMED ME.
HE SAID DEBBIE.

AND SO THIS GUY WENT BACK
TO STOCKHOLM

AND TOLD EVERYBODY,
"DEBBIE RENNIE'S A POET."

SO HE AGREED WITH THAT.
AND I WAS SO RELIEVED

BECAUSE I'D BEEN WORKING
TIRELESSLY

TO TRY TO GET THIS IDEA
SOME TRACTION,

AND, I MEAN, IT MIGHT HAVE
SEEMED LIKE IT WAS EASY,

BUT IT WAS A LONG SLOG
OF BEING VERY PATIENT FOR YEARS.

IT WAS A BRAVE THING TO DO.

BUT I HAVE TO DO WHAT
I BELIEVE IN,

EVEN THOUGH IT WASN'T EASY.

INFLUENCES. WELL...

THERE ARE A LOT.

I'M INFLUENCED BY IDEAS.

I LOOK AT OTHER POETS' STYLES.

AND IT'S JUST AS IF SOMEBODY
WHO IS A HEARING AUTHOR

WOULD LOOK AT DIFFERENT
STYLES OF WRITING

AND LOOK AT THOSE AND MAKE
COMPARISONS.

I DO THE SAME THING AND LOOK
AT OTHER PEOPLE'S.

SOME PEOPLE'S I LIKE AND SOME
OTHER FOLKS I DON'T LIKE,

AND I HAVE TO JUDGE WHICH
OF THOSE INFLUENCES

I WANT TO TAKE IN TO
MY OWN WORK.

I REALLY LIKE METAPHOR.

SOMEBODY'S REALLY GOOD
WITH METAPHOR,

THAT STRIKES ME,

AND I WANT TO USE MORE
METAPHORS IN MY WORK.

RHYTHM.

ELLA USES A LOT OF RHYTHM
IN HER POEMS.

AND I WONDER,
HOW CAN I PLAY WITH RHYTHM

MORE IN MY WORK ALSO?

PATRICK HAS THIS INTERESTING
SIMULTANEOUS USE

OF DIFFERENT HANDSHAPES,
WHICH IS REALLY COOL.

YOU KNOW, HE'S GOT THE ONE IN
REFLECTION

WITH THE ROCKET GOING UP AND
THE TEAR GOING DOWN THE FACE,

VERY CAREFULLY CHOOSING
THE SIGNS

AND CONSTRUCTING THE POEMS.

PETER HAS A LOT OF MOVEMENT
PLACE TO PLACE,

SO HE'LL TALK ABOUT SOMETHING
GOING ON

IN THE U.S. AND SOMETHING
GOING ON

AT THE SAME TIME
IN SOUTH AMERICA

AND BE ABLE TO SWITCH FROM
DIFFERENT LOCATIONS

JUST IN HIS BODY.

SO IT'S INTERESTING TO EDUCATE
PEOPLE IN SWEDEN

ABOUT THESE DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES
THAT I'VE SEEN--

RHYTHM AND SIMULTANEOUS
SIGN PRODUCTION, FORM, MOVEMENT,

REPETITION.

JUST A MYRIAD
OF DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES

THAT I'VE INCORPORATED IN
MY WORK.

ANOTHER INFLUENCE,
I HAVE TO SAY,

IS PETER...

PETER COOK.

WE WORK TOGETHER.

AND ALSO KENNY LERNER
WAS INVOLVED IN THIS.

THE THREE OF US WOULD COME UP
WITH IDEAS.

KENNY WOULD SUGGEST SOMETHING.

HE HAD A STEVIE WONDER SONG THAT
HE WAS EXPLAINING TO ME ONE DAY.

I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT,
OF COURSE,

BUT HE SHOWED ME THE LINES,

AND THEN WE CHANGED THE LINES
AROUND OF THE SONG

SO THAT THE STORY WAS MORE
COHESIVE.

AND KENNY SAID, "WHY DON'T
YOU CHANGE STUFF AROUND

"IN YOUR POEMS, LIKE REORDER
WHAT YOU'RE DOING

SO THAT THE STORY IS TOLD IN
A DIFFERENT WAY?"

SO WE THOUGHT,
OK, LET'S DO THAT.

SO WE HAD THIS ONE STORY,

AND THEN WE MOVED THINGS AROUND.

WE LITERALLY DID, SO THERE WAS
MORE REPETITION

OF CERTAIN OF THE ELEMENTS.

AND THEN THE LAST PART WOULD
BRING IT ALL TOGETHER

AND TIE IT IN

IN THIS REALLY NEAT WAY.

AND I STILL USE THAT TECHNIQUE,

I STILL USE THAT IDEA SOMETIMES.

IT WAS REALLY NICE.

THAT POEM WAS CALLED "HAMBURG,"

AND THAT WAS ONE
OF THE BEST ONES. "HAMBURG."

PETER AND I PERFORMED THAT
TOGETHER.

WE WORKED ON THAT.

AND THAT WAS JUST AMAZING.

WE HAVEN'T DONE IT SINCE THEN.

THE OTHER ONE--I'M TRYING TO
THINK OF WHAT THE TITLE WAS--

UH, "SMOKE..."

"BIG WORLD TO SMALL WORLD,"
I THINK, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

"BIG WORLD, SMALL WORLD."

THAT WAS REALLY NEAT.

AND WE DID THAT.

AND WHEN
I SHOWED THAT ONE IN SWEDEN--

AND THAT WAS SO COOL.

PEOPLE WERE COMPLETELY FLOORED
BY IT. IT WAS GREAT!

NOW, LATER PETER AND I WORKED
TEACHING IN NORWAY.

WE HAD THIS WORKSHOP
WE WERE PUTTING ON.

WE FOUND THAT THE POETRY
WOULD BE INTERESTING

IF WE TALKED
MORE ABOUT CLASSIFIERS,

BECAUSE CLASSIFIERS
ARE AN INTEGRAL PART

OF SIGN LANGUAGE EXPRESSION.

AND THEY'RE REALLY RICH IN
THEIR LINGUISTIC CAPABILITIES.

THERE'S
A LOT OF MIME INVOLVED IN IT

WITH CLASSIFIERS.

IF YOU'RE WALKING DOWN
THE STREET,

I'M WATCHING MYSELF

WALK DOWN THE STREET
LIKE A YOUNG KID.

THAT'S A GESTURE,
NOT A SIGN, REALLY.

OR YOU CAN SHOW SOMEBODY WALKING
ON AN ICY SURFACE.

YOU'VE GOT THE SURFACE,

BUT WHAT'S THE SIGN THAT YOU'RE
GOING TO USE TO SHOW THAT MORE?

YOU KNOW, SIGN LANGUAGE HAS
SO MANY DIFFERENT NUANCES

AND SUCH RICHNESS.

EVERYBODY KNOWS WHEN
YOU'RE WALKING DOWN THE STREET

IF YOU MIME IT.

BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO SHOW IT
FROM DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW,

DIFFERENT ANGLES,
YOU CAN SHOW THE FEET

WITH YOUR HANDS LIKE THAT.

YOU CAN SHOW THE TREES GOING BY.

THEN WE KNOW A PERSON'S WALKING.

SO YOU'RE CHANGING FROM
DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES,

AND CLASSIFIERS HELP US
WITH THAT.

PETER WAS TALKING A LOT ABOUT
FILM TECHNIQUES IN HIS WORK

AND HOW THAT DEVELOPED

IN THE SAME WAY THAT POETRY
DEVELOPS.

SO FILM, OF COURSE...

IF YOU THINK ABOUT "THE MATRIX"
AND HOW THAT SHOWED

GOING BACKWARDS AND FORWARDS.

I MEAN, THE IMAGERY AND HOW
IMAGINATIVE THAT WAS

AND HOW WE CAN SHOW THAT
IN SIGN LANGUAGE, TOO,

IT'S AMAZING,

THAT WHOLE IDEA OF, YOU KNOW,
IN "THE MATRIX"

WHEN NEO IS FLYING,

AND HE SLOWS DOWN BUT SOMETHING
GOES BY HIM.

THAT'S A LOT OF PLAY.

YOU CAN PUT THAT IN
SIGN LANGUAGE, TOO.

SO A LOT OF FILMIC STYLES
CAN GO INTO IT.

PETER AND I, WOW, WHEN WE GET
TOGETHER, IT'S GREAT,

BUT WE LIVE SO FAR APART NOW.

IT'S NICE TO BUMP INTO HIM
AGAIN AND AGAIN HERE AND THERE.

IT'S REALLY COOL WHEN WE DO.

AND THEN IT ALWAYS KIND OF
SPRINGS UP NEW IDEAS FOR US.

WE GROW MORE.

I'VE TAUGHT WITH DEAF KIDS,

HEARING KIDS, ADULTS, EVERYBODY.

AND I ALWAYS GET NEW IDEAS.

AND IT ALWAYS SPARKS NEW IDEAS
WITHIN ME

WHEN I MEET DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

I BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING IN
THE WORLD INSPIRES ME.

THE NEWS, CURRENT EVENTS,
EVERYTHING GIVES ME IDEAS.

THERE'S NOT JUST ONE INFLUENCE
THAT GETS ME GOING POETICALLY.

LET'S SEE.

WHEN I BECAME A VEGETARIAN,

IT WAS--LET'S SEE.

I WAS AT A POETRY FESTIVAL--

NO, NO.

OH, IT WAS THE CLEARWATER
FESTIVAL. THAT'S WHAT IT WAS.

SOMEBODY WAS
HANDING OUT BROCHURES

ABOUT ANIMAL RIGHTS
AND ANIMAL WELFARE.

AND I TOOK ONE.

AND THEY WERE LOOKING FOR
MEMBERS, YOU KNOW,

PEOPLE WHO WOULD BECOME
PART OF THIS VEGETARIAN SOCIETY.

AND IN THIS BROCHURE,
THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT VEAL.

NOW, I HAD NO AWARENESS OF WHERE
VEAL CAME FROM AT THE TIME.

I DIDN'T REALIZE WE WERE EATING
BABY COWS, BABY ANIMALS.

YOU KNOW, THEY TAKE THEM BEFORE
THEY BECOME ADULTS,

AND THEN THEY PROCESS THEM,
AND WE EAT THEM.

SO I WANTED SOMEHOW TO CREATE
A POEM THAT WOULD SHOW CALF,

C-A-L-F, C-A-L-F
AGAIN AND AGAIN,

FINGERSPELL THAT WORD
OVER AND OVER AGAIN,

AND THAT'S HOW I CAME UP WITH
THE DIFFERENT ELEMENTS

OF THAT PARTICULAR POEM,

BECAUSE I WANTED TO SHOW THAT
WE DEFINITELY EAT CALVES.

I HADN'T KNOWN ANYTHING
ABOUT IT MYSELF.

I DIDN'T KNOW
WHERE VEAL CAME FROM.

I DIDN'T KNOW IT CAME FROM
CALVES.

SO IT REALLY HIT ME HARD
LEARNING ABOUT THAT.

YEAH. IT'S A PRETTY
POWERFUL POEM.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE--HA HA!--
PRETTY SHOCKED BY IT,

AND A LOT OF THEM WERE INSPIRED
TO STOP EATING VEAL,

SO I GUESS IT WORKED.

"BOYCOTT VEAL" IS THE TITLE
OF IT, AND IT DID WORK.

YEAH. YES.

I WANTED TO FINGERSPELL THE WORD
MANY TIMES.

YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES WITH
FINGERSPELLED STORIES,

OR WORD ALONE STORIES,

THEY'RE CUTE, THEY'RE FUNNY.

THERE'S ONE ABOUT PIANO--
P-I-A-N-O.

AND THERE'S SOME WAY YOU DO THAT
TO SHOW

HOW YOU'RE PLAYING A PIANO.

SO THEY'RE FUN,
AND THEY'RE WITTY.

BUT I DECIDED I WANTED TO DO
SOMETHING

A LITTLE BIT MORE POWERFUL.

SO CALVES ARE CUTE, BUT, YOU
KNOW, IRONICALLY, THEY HAVE

A LIFE FULL OF PAIN,
AND IT'S A CONTRADICTION.

AND LIFE IS FULL OF
CONTRADICTIONS.

SO I WANTED TO EMPHASIZE THAT
AND JUXTAPOSE THAT.

YES.

DONNA AND I WERE DRIVING,
I REMEMBER,

AND I WAS LOOKING AT
THE BEAUTIFUL SCENERY.

I WAS REALLY THINKING ABOUT
"MOTHER EARTH,"

ALL THAT WAS ARRAYED AROUND
ME AS WE DROVE DOWN THE ROAD.

I WAS REALLY TAKEN BY
THE FLUTTERING OF THE TREES

AND THE BRANCHES.

SO I WAS LOOKING OUTSIDE
THE WINDOWS OF THE CAR.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE JUST DRIVING
DOWN THE ROAD

AND JUST REALLY THINKING ABOUT
NATURE.

AND I WAS TAKING DIFFERENT
ELEMENTS OF NATURE

AND PUTTING THEM TOGETHER,

REALLY FOCUSING ON THE IDEA OF
MOTHER EARTH.

WELL, WHAT I WOULD DO IS I WOULD

CREATE MY POETRY,
AND THEN I WOULD TAPE IT.

AND THEN DONNA KACHITES

WOULD WATCH IT.

AND SHE WOULD TAKE NOTES

AS SHE WATCHED IT.

I JUST LEFT THAT PART UP TO HER
TO COME UP WITH THE WORDS.

I WOULD CREATE IT.

SHE'D SHOW ME THE WORDS,

I WOULD APPROVE THEM.

YOU KNOW, THEN
WE WOULD PRACTICE TOGETHER.

SHE WOULD MATCH THE WORD
TO MY PERFORMANCE.

AND IT TOOK A LONG TIME.

AND THIS WAS IN HER FREE TIME.

THERE WAS NO PAY INVOLVED AT
ALL. IT WAS A LOT OF WORK.

THAT'S VERY RARE TODAY.

YOU WON'T FIND PEOPLE WILLING
TO DO THAT.

AND NOW I DON'T EVEN HAVE

A VOICE INTERPRETER
FOR MY POETRY.

BACK THEN WHEN I WAS WITH DONNA,
IT WAS SO AWESOME.

BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS
A REALLY WORTHWHILE THING

TO HAVE EVERYBODY
IN THE COMMUNITY INVOLVED,

THAT DEAF AND HEARING PEOPLE

COULD ENJOY
A PERFORMANCE TOGETHER,

THE DEAF PEOPLE WATCHING
THE SIGNS

AND THE HEARING PEOPLE HEARING
A VOICE.

THERE WERE DISCUSSIONS,
ARGUMENTS, DISSENSIONS

IN THE COMMUNITY ABOUT WHETHER
IT WAS RIGHT OR WRONG

TO ADD A VOICE AT THE SAME TIME
AS A POEM WAS BEING PRESENTED.

SO A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS ENSUED
FROM THAT.

BUT, FOR ME, I THOUGHT IT WAS
REALLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE

EVERYBODY IN THE COMMUNITY
PARTICIPATING IN THIS EVENT.

I DIDN'T WANT ANYBODY EXCLUDED.

I'LL BE PERFORMING IN JANUARY
OF 2009,

AND IT'S GOING TO BE A REALLY
BIG VENUE,

AND IT'S A REALLY BIG DEAL
FOR ME.

IT'S A SOLO SHOW,
A SOLO PERFORMANCE.

SWEDEN HAS A PROFESSIONAL
THEATER OF THE DEAF.

IT'S CALLED THE SILENT THEATER.

AND THEY ACTUALLY HIRED ME,

AND THEY PURCHASED MY WORK,
MY POETRY.

IT'S GOING TO BE FILMED.
I'LL HAVE COSTUMES.

I HAVE A DIRECTOR.

IT'S A HUGE PRODUCTION, REALLY.

I'M SO HONORED THAT THEY PURSUED
ME AND WANTED ME FOR THIS.

IT'S A TRAVELING SHOW.

THEY DIDN'T ASK ME IF I WANTED
A VOICE.

THEY'RE NOT
GOING TO HIRE ANYBODY

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,
BACK IN THE DAY, LIKE I SAID,

DONNA WORKED FOR FREE

AND DIDN'T EXPECT ANY PAY
AT ALL, NOR DID SHE GET ANY.

SHE JUST TRANSLATED THIS
FOR NO PAY AT ALL.

THAT'S JUST WHAT IT WAS
BACK THEN.

IT WOULD COST A LOT NOW
BECAUSE YOU'D HAVE TO BE,

IN ESSENCE, PAYING TWO ACTORS--
ME AND A VOICER.

SO WE CAME UP WITH A BRILLIANT
IDEA OF HAVING CAPTIONS.

SO FIRST WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS,
ON THE SIDE OF THE STAGE,

THERE'LL BE A SCREEN.

AND THERE WILL BE THE WORDS,
THE TEXT OF WHAT I'M PERFORMING

IN SWEDISH,

SO PEOPLE CAN READ THAT,

AND THEN ONCE THEY'VE FINISHED
READING,

THE SCREEN WILL GO DARK,
AND THEN THEY'LL WATCH ME,

AND THEY'LL TRY TO PUT THAT
TOGETHER THEMSELVES.

OF COURSE, THE DEAF PEOPLE,
IF THEY READ IT

AND THEN THEY WATCH ME,
IT'S HELPFUL FOR THEM, TOO,

BECAUSE THEY'LL BE LEARNING
TO READ SWEDISH BETTER, TOO.

SO IT'S NICE.

IT'S GREAT.

IT'S HAVING TWO PERFORMANCES
IN A SENSE. IT'S GREAT.

IT'S A VERY NEAT CONCEPT.

YES. KENNY--MOSTLY
KENNY AND PETER AND I,

THE THREE OF US,

BECAUSE WE WERE ROOMMATES
AT THAT TIME.

WE WERE ALWAYS JUST GOING
TO TOWN

AND CREATING THINGS
ALL THE TIME.

AND I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH--
LET'S SEE--

THERE WAS ONE POEM
THAT I THINK KENNY...

WELL, HE WAS TALKING ABOUT--
MAYBE IT WAS JIM.

I'M THINKING JIM WAS
INVOLVED IN THIS.

ANYWAY, ONE OF THEM WAS WORKING
IN A MENTAL HOSPITAL.

AND HE TOLD ME THIS STORY,
AND I TOOK THAT STORY

AND THEN USED THAT
IN JUXTAPOSITION

AND OVERLAP WITH THE HOLOCAUST

WITH WHAT HAPPENED TO THE JEWS
IN GERMANY.

SO WE WORKED ON THAT ONE
TOGETHER.

I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER
THE OTHER ONES.

KENNY WAS MORE--HE WAS
AN IDEA GUY:

THE IDEAS WITHIN THE LANGUAGE.

UM...

WELL, HERE'S A GOOD EXAMPLE.

WE TRIED TO PUT THIS ONE IMAGE
IN A POEM

OF A HAND SCRATCHING
DOWN A WALL.

OK, THAT'S A HAND SCRATCHING
DOWN THE WALL, RIGHT?

SO WE SAVED THAT IDEA.

BUT THE FIRST THING YOU SEE
IS NOT THAT PICTURE.

YOU SEE SOMEBODY OUTLINING
THOSE SCRATCHES IN THE WALL

WITH THEIR FINGERS,

SO YOU'RE SUGGESTING THE IDEA.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT CAUSED
THOSE LINES IN THE WALL,

BUT YOU'RE JUST
SEEING THESE LINES IN THE WALL

THAT ARE BEING OUTLINED BY
A HAND.

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S
A HAND THAT SCRAPED DOWN

THE SIDE OF THAT WALL
AND CAUSED IT UNTIL LATER,

AND THEN YOU REALIZE THAT IT WAS
FROM THE SHOWERS--

OR WHAT THEY SAID WAS SHOWERS
DURING THE HOLOCAUST,

WHEN THEY GASSED THE JEWS.

SO THE STORY ITSELF COULD EMBED
THESE INTERESTING TECHNIQUES.

YOU KNOW, IF I SHOW THAT
RIGHT AWAY,

IT WOULDN'T BE AS INTERESTING.

KENNY SAID,
"SAVE IT TILL LATER.

SAVE THE BIG REVEAL UNTIL
THE END."

SO THE AUDIENCE IS PUZZLED,

AND THEY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT
A LITTLE BIT

AND WORK A LITTLE HARDER.

AND AT THE VERY END, IT ALL
COMES TOGETHER,

AND THEY UNDERSTAND.

SO I OUTLINED THOSE LINES ON
THE WALL,

AND THEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT
IT IS TILL THE END OF THE POEM.

SOMETIMES KENNY WAS
"TOO HEARING."

I MEAN BY THAT NOT
TOO HEARING...

YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T KNOW
ABOUT THESE THINGS.

I'D HAD NO EDUCATION ABOUT SOME
OF THE THINGS HE TALKED ABOUT.

AND I THOUGHT THAT, YOU KNOW,
I'VE GOT THE SIGNS.

I KNEW HOW TO SIGN,
BUT I DIDN'T HAVE THOSE IDEAS

THAT HE WAS ABLE TO GIVE ME.

KENNY'S A VERY CREATIVE PERSON.

HE IS ALWAYS COMING UP
WITH NEW IDEAS,

BUT THEY DIDN'T
NECESSARILY CONNECT

WITH DEAF AUDIENCES,

SO HE WAS MORE OF AN ARTIST BUT
AN ARTIST OF A DIFFERENT SORT.

I THINK DEAF CULTURE MOVES
ALONG, AND IT'S "SAFE."

WELL, I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT
THIS FOR A MINUTE,

MORE ABOUT DEAF CULTURE.

THOSE WITHIN DEAF CULTURE
KNOW THE RULES.

THEY KNOW THE NORMS.

IT'S A COMFORTABLE WORLD,

AND IT KIND OF GOES
ALONG SAFELY

COMPARED TO THEIR PERCEPTION
OF THE HEARING WORLD,

WHERE THEY DON'T KNOW THE RULES.

IT'S ALL NEW--NEW THOUGHTS,
NEW IDEAS.

AND THEY'RE SOMEWHAT TAKEN ABACK
BY THOSE THINGS

WHEN THEY'RE PRESENTED
IN A CERTAIN WAY.

BUT KENNY TAUGHT ME
A LOT ABOUT THAT,

AND THEN I, IN TURN, FELT
I COULD PASS THAT ALONG

TO DEAF AUDIENCES

AND TEACH THEM.

YES. YES. RIGHT, RIGHT.

AT THAT TIME--AND THIS WAS
A REALLY LONG TIME AGO--

IT'S HARD FOR ME TO REMEMBER
AND BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN IT...

I'M JUST TRYING
TO THINK ABOUT HOW.

IT'S LIKE IF YOU WERE GOING
TO PAINT WITH WATERCOLOR.

YOU OPEN YOUR TUBES, YOU LAY OUT
YOUR COLORS ON YOUR PALETTE,

AND THEN YOU
JUST SEE WHAT HAPPENS

AS YOU PLAY AROUND
ON THE CANVAS.

SOMETHING HAPPENS. SOMETHING
POPS UP ON THAT CANVAS.

AND, FOR ME, IT'S THE SAME THING
WITH CREATING POETRY.

I'M JUST MESSING AROUND.
I'M PLAYING.

SUPPOSE I WANTED TO SHOW "COLD."

HOW WOULD I SHOW WHAT COLD IS
OR HOT?

HOW WOULD I BE ABLE
TO DEPICT THAT?

HOW DO I SHOW TEMPERATURE?

HOW ABOUT SORROW
OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?

I WANT TO BE ABLE TO DEPICT IT
SOMEHOW,

SO I TAKE AN IDEA
AND HAVE TO FIGURE OUT

HOW TO REPRESENT IT IN SIGN,
ICONICALLY.

FOR INSTANCE, A LEAF FALLING
FROM A TREE.

OK. THERE YOU GO. YOU GOT
A LEAF FALLING FROM THE TREE.

HOW WOULD I SHOW IT'S COLD?

SHOW IT SHUDDERING IN
THE COLD.

THAT'S PLAYING, RIGHT?

HOW ABOUT HOT?
HOW WOULD I SHOW IT'S HOT?

IT'S WILTING AS IT FALLS
FROM THE TREE.

SO JUST SEARCHING FOR THE RIGHT
WAY TO SHOW THE IDEA.

I STILL WORK THAT WAY TODAY.

I'M THINKING--I HAVE SOMETHING
IN MIND.

WHAT DID I WANT TO SAY?

OH. UM...

BEFORE I LEFT FOR SWEDEN...

I ACTUALLY MADE A VIDEO.

THE GROUP CALLED SIGN MEDIA
IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

INVITED ME TO COME,

AND THEY DISSEMINATED THIS
VIDEO.

I WAS EXCITED TO GO.
IT WAS GREAT.

AND WE MADE THIS VIDEO.

IT WAS PART OF A SERIES.

AND THEN I LEFT.

IT'S KIND OF FUNNY.

IT'S LIKE I JUST SORT OF
LEFT ALL THAT BEHIND.

I CREATED THIS THING,
AND THEN I ABSCONDED.

SO I LEFT THE U.S.

AND THAT WAS NOT AN EASY MOVE
FOR ME...

BECAUSE ASL POETRY WAS HERE,

AND THEN I WAS GOING TO A PLACE
WHERE THERE WASN'T ANY POETRY.

I GOT THERE, AND I HAD TO LEARN
THE LANGUAGE

BEFORE I COULD CREATE
ANY POETRY

AND PLAY WITH THE LANGUAGE.

IF YOU'RE GONNA PLAY WITH
SOMETHING,

THAT MEANS YOU HAVE TO PUT IN
THE TIME AND BE PATIENT.

SO I HAD TO TAKE SOME TIME TO
LEARN THE LANGUAGE, OF COURSE.

AND THAT TAKES A LOT OF TIME
AND EFFORT,

WHEREAS HERE, YOU KNOW, WHEN
I LEFT THE U.S.,

I ALREADY HAD THAT.

AND IT WASN'T EASY.

IT WAS AN ANGUISHING SITUATION
FOR ME TO GO THERE.

BUT IT ENDED UP TO BE SUCH
A POSITIVE THING,

AND SUCH GREAT THINGS HAPPENED
ANYWAY WHEN I MOVED.

SO I MOVED IN 1991.

AND IN 1993--OOPS! I SIGNED IT
THE SWEDISH WAY.

IN 1993--THERE WAS A TV
PRODUCTION COMPANY THAT ASKED ME

TO PERFORM FOR THEM.

IT WAS WITH CHILDREN,

KIND OF LIKE A "SESAME STREET"
THING HERE,

BUT FOR THERE, IT WAS FOR
DEAF CHILDREN.

SO THEY WANTED ME TO PERFORM
POETRY FOR CHILDREN. PERFECT.

IT WAS A GREAT WAY TO PRACTICE,
YOU KNOW,

BECAUSE I WAS JUST LEARNING
THE LANGUAGE AND I WAS CREATING,

BUT, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T SIGN
THAT WELL YET

IN SWEDISH SIGN LANGUAGE,
BUT IT DIDN'T MATTER

BECAUSE I WAS WORKING WITH KIDS,
AND I WAS PERFORMING FOR KIDS.

SO I COULD BE SORT OF AWKWARD,
MAKE A LOT OF MISTAKES,

AND BE GOOFY.

AND THAT WAS FUNNY.

SO IT WAS A PERFECT FIT,
ACTUALLY.

IT WAS POETRY FOR CHILDREN.

I CREATED ALL DIFFERENT ONES
FOR THEM.

AND IT WAS A GREAT PROCESS
TO BE INVOLVED WITH.

OH, MAYBE THAT WAS THE CELLAR.

MAYBE. JIM ORGANIZED THAT? OH,
THAT MUST BE WHAT IT WAS. OK.

OH, I REMEMBER NOW. YEAH, RIGHT.
JIM WAS PART OF THAT. MM-HMM.

RIGHT. "BIRDBRAIN!" I FORGOT
ABOUT "BIRDBRAIN!"

YEAH, HE ENCOURAGED A LOT OF
PEOPLE TO TAKE PART IN THAT,

IN THE BIRD'S BRAIN SOCIETY.
MM-HMM.

I FEEL...

I JUST LOVE DOING IT.
WHAT CAN I SAY?

IT'S THAT SIMPLE. REALLY.

I JUST LOVE IT.

IT MAKES ME FEEL WONDERFUL.
I LOVE PLAYING WITH LANGUAGE.

MY WRITING IS SO BAD IN ENGLISH.
IT'S MUCH INFERIOR.

AND IT MAKES ME FEEL INFERIOR.

WHEN I TRY TO DO IT,
IT DEPLETES ME.

IT HURTS ME TO TRY TO DO IT,
BUT I'M REPLENISHED WITH SIGN.

I FEEL SO MUCH BETTER.

IT'S GREAT TO BE ABLE TO SIGN
MY POETRY.

AND I FEEL THAT I'M ABLE TO
GROW FROM IT.

IT'S REALLY SIMPLE.
I JUST LOVE IT.

I THINK IT'S REALLY COOL.

I FEEL SPIRITUAL ABOUT IT.

IT'S WONDERFUL.
IT'S INSPIRATIONAL.

THINGS ARE HARD.
THINGS ARE PAINFUL.

THINGS ARE DIFFICULT SOMETIMES.

BUT WHEN I DO POETRY,
IT FEELS LIKE JUST JUMPING IN,

REFRESHING WATER.

IT'S REPLENISHING. I ENJOY IT.
AND THAT'S ALL.

IT'S ART--PERFORMANCE ART,
DANCE, THEATER--

ANY OF THOSE THINGS, THEY'RE
JUST WONDERFUL.

MAKES ME FEEL WONDERFUL.

BRIDGE OF WAS, LIKE,
WELL, IT WAS A GROUP.

WE DID GROUP WORK.

WE WERE TRYING TO DEVELOP,
YOU KNOW, GROUP THINGS,

GROUP PERFORMANCES.

IT WAS VERY HARD.

IT'S NOT EASY.

SO WE WOULD GET TOGETHER,

AND WE WERE TRYING
TO SIGN THINGS TOGETHER.

IT'S MUCH EASIER TO WORK SOLO,
OF COURSE,

OR MAYBE EVEN AS A DUO,
JUST TWO PEOPLE.

BUT WE WOULD DO TWO, OR WE WOULD
DO 3 PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME

AND BECOME
THIS PERFORMANCE GROUP.

SO WE WERE TRYING TO FOCUS ON
THE LANGUAGE SOMEHOW

THAT, AS A GROUP, IT WAS
VERY DIFFICULT.

EACH OF US CONTRIBUTED DIFFERENT
TALENTS TO IT.

SOMETIMES JIM WOULD STAND
AND READ A POEM,

AND SOMEONE WOULD
INTERPRET IT FOR HIM,

OR JIM WOULD HAVE SOMEBODY
NEXT TO HIM,

AND HE WOULD SIGN IT,

OR KENNY WOULD SIGN SOMETHING,

AND PETER WOULD ACTUALLY
VOICE IT.

SO WE'D SWITCH UP THE ROLES.

IT WAS A VERY SHORT-LIVED GROUP.

AND THEN I LEFT.

I DO REMEMBER THIS ONE NIGHT.
IT WAS SO FUNNY.

WE WERE ALL SITTING AROUND
AND HANGING OUT AND TALKING.

AND THEN JIM COMES INTO THE ROOM
AND SAYS, "HEY, GUYS,

WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE IN
BINGHAMTON."

WE HAD ALL COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN.
HA HA! IT WAS SO FUNNY.

WE WERE SUPPOSED TO DO SOME
POETRY DOWN AT BINGHAMTON.

WE WEREN'T THERE. HA HA!

THE POEM "MISSING CHILDREN" CAME
ABOUT BECAUSE I WAS WATCHING TV,

AND THERE WAS A STORY ABOUT
IRELAND.

I DON'T REMEMBER THE SIGN FOR IT
IN AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE.

I'M USING THE SWEDISH SIGN,
BUT ANYWAY, IRELAND.

AND THERE WAS THIS PROGRAM...

AND IT WAS SHOWING, YOU KNOW,

THE CATHOLIC AND
THE PROTESTANTS' DIFFICULTIES,

THE TIME OF TROUBLES.

AND, ANYWAY, IN THIS SHOW, THEY
WERE SHOWING A FAMILY

THAT ACTUALLY DID AN EXCHANGE
TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND

EACH OTHER BETTER.

LATER ON, NOT LONG AFTER THAT,

I WAS STUDYING...

I WAS TAKING AN ELECTIVE COURSE.

IT WAS A POLITICAL COURSE.

AND IT WAS DEALING WITH
THE HISTORY OF SOUTH AFRICA.

AND IN SOUTH AFRICA AT THAT
TIME, THE POLICE HAD COME,

AND THEY WERE SHOOTING MARCHERS
IN A FUNERAL PROCESSION

AND SHOOTING THEM IN THE BACK.

AND THEN RIGHT ON THE HEELS OF
THAT, I LEARNED ABOUT

HOW IN SOUTH AMERICA,
QUITE OFTEN,

CHILDREN ARE FORCED TO BE
CHILD SOLDIERS.

AT THE SAME TIME
THIS IS GOING ON,

THERE'S THESE MILK CARTONS

WITH PICTURES OF
MISSING CHILDREN ON THEM,

SO I MADE THE LINKAGES BETWEEN
ALL THOSE DIFFERENT STORIES,

AND KENNY HELPED ME WITH THAT.

AND I PUT THEM ALL TOGETHER
IN THIS ONE PIECE OF WORK.

YEAH, I'M STILL ACTUALLY USING
THAT POEM.

I FEEL LIKE, WHERE'S CHILDHOOD?
IT'S GONE FOR SO MANY.

I REALLY WANTED TO EMPHASIZE
THAT, HOW THOSE CHILDREN SUFFER.

SOUTH AFRICA, SOUTH AMERICA,
IRELAND...

AND IN OTHER PLACES IN
THE WORLD, TOO,

IT'S STILL HAPPENING.

THERE ARE MANY MISSING CHILDREN
TO THIS DAY, STILL.

I FEEL LIKE IN THE EIGHTIES,
A FLOWER WAS BLOSSOMING.

I THOUGHT THAT SEEDS WOULD
EMANATE FROM THESE BLOSSOMS

AND SCATTER AND TAKE ROOT.

IT DIDN'T REALLY HAPPEN,
I GUESS. AND I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT LOOKS
LIKE NOW.

I'M SO FAR BEHIND IN TERMS OF
THE SCENE NOW,

BUT I YANKED OUT
SOME OF THOSE PLANTS,

AND I TOOK THOSE SEEDS OF POETRY
TO SWEDEN.

I THINK IT'S "IMPORTANT" FOR ME,
YOU KNOW,

BECAUSE IF THERE HADN'T BEEN
THAT TIME,

THEN THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY ME.

WELL, I DON'T REALLY MEAN THAT
LITERALLY.

IT'S NOT LIKE I WOULDN'T EXIST.

BUT IT'S JUST THE LANGUAGE
OF POETRY

THAT I HAVE SO STRONGLY
WITHIN ME.

I MEAN, I SEE SO CLEARLY
WHAT ASL POETRY IS.

AND IT CAME TO FRUITION AT
THAT TIME, AND IT CONTINUES.

I DID WRITE POETRY BEFORE
THAT TIME,

BUT I WROTE IT IN ENGLISH.

BUT AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME,
THAT ASL POETRY EXPLOSION

IN THE EIGHTIES WAS WHEN
I REALLY FEEL I GOT IT.

THAT'S WHAT ASL POETRY IS,
AND IT OCCURRED IN THE 1980s.

OH, I HAVE TO READ IT.
OH, I HAVE IT.

HA HA! JUST IMAGINE MY VOICE!

SAID, "DID I EVER GIVE
KENNY ANY VOICING IDEAS?"

I JUST THOUGHT THAT WAS FUNNY.

I'M FASCINATED...

BY ANY KIND OF PERFORMANCE ART.

AND DEAF CULTURE HAS--
WAIT A MINUTE. WHAT DO I MEAN?

LET ME START AGAIN.

PERFORMANCE ART HADN'T BEEN MUCH
IN DEAF CULTURE PREVIOUSLY.

OUT IN THE HEARING WORLD,
THERE'S A FAMOUS WOMAN

NAMED LAURIE ANDERSON--VERY
WELL-KNOWN PERFORMANCE ARTIST.

SHE PLAYS AROUND WITH SOUNDS,
NOISES,

DIFFERENT SORTS OF TECHNIQUES.

AND WHEN I WAS AT RIT, THERE WAS
A HEARING PROFESSOR

WHO WAS TALKING ABOUT
CONTEMPORARY ART

AND MENTIONED PERFORMANCE ART.

AND THERE'S THIS ONE PERSON
WHO PAINTED,

WHO MADE
PEANUT BUTTER SANDWICHES

ALL ALONG THE STREET.

THIS IS A HEARING PERSON, RIGHT?

I FOUND THAT REALLY INTERESTING,

THAT THEIR ART WAS MAKING
PEANUT BUTTER SANDWICHES.

AND THAT KIND OF GOT ME DRAWN IN
IN A SENSE.

THAT WAS A HEARING THING.

AND, ANYWAY, I LEARNED THAT

THROUGH GETTING EDUCATED
ABOUT THAT,

BUT I THOUGHT, "OK,
HEARING PEOPLE DO THAT. GREAT."

BUT I WANTED TO BE PART OF
THAT, TOO.

I LOVED WORKING WITH
HEARING PEOPLE.

IT WAS VERY CHALLENGING,

LOTS OF NEW IDEAS,
DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES,

WHICH REALLY HELPED ME SEE IN
DIFFERENT WAYS AS WELL.

SO, YES, YOU KNOW, DEAF PEOPLE
WOULD SAY, "WHAT'S UP?

THAT'S NOT DEAF!"

AND THAT'S RIGHT, BECAUSE
DEAF CULTURE DIDN'T NECESSARILY

CONTAIN THOSE ASPECTS OF
PERFORMANCE ART,

LIKE SOMEBODY--MAKING
PEANUT BUTTER SANDWICHES

ON THE SIDEWALK, AND WHAT'S
THAT ALL ABOUT?

SO THAT WAS THE DIFFICULTY,
WAS THIS CULTURAL CLASH

THAT WOULD OCCUR FROM JUST
A LACK OF EXPERIENCE

WITH THAT PARTICULAR ART FORM.

SO THROUGH DISCUSSIONS
AND THROUGH DELIBERATIONS,

WE WERE ABLE TO BRING THOSE
TWO TOGETHER

BY BRINGING PERFORMANCE ART
INTO THE DEAF COMMUNITY.

SOMETIMES PEOPLE
DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS

TO BE DEAF.

THEY LOOKED AT ME, AND THEY
THINK I'M WEIRD.

IT ALWAYS WAS, PEOPLE THOUGHT
THAT I WAS EUROPEAN

BACK IN THE DAY.

I WAS INTO ART, AND THEY THOUGHT
I ALREADY LOOKED EUROPEAN,

I BELONGED MORE THERE.

I THINK IN SWEDEN, THERE IS MORE
ART JUST IN GENERAL.

AND THE QUALITY OF THE ART IS
SUPERIOR,

ESPECIALLY FOR DEAF PEOPLE
IN EUROPE.

IT'S JUST A EUROPEAN THING.

YOU KNOW, U.S. MOVIES--
THEY'RE SHOOT 'EM UP,

BANG 'EM UP, ACTION KIND OF
FILMS, ADVENTURES,

VERY OBVIOUS, NOT SO NUANCED.

BUT IN EUROPEAN FILMS, YOU HAVE
TO WORK A LITTLE HARDER.

AND THAT'S
MORE INTERESTING TO ME.

AND I LOVE THEM.

I THINK IN THAT PARTICULAR,
YOU KNOW, QUADRANT, ART IS

STRONGER IN EUROPE THAN IT IS
HERE IN THE U.S.

MY RESPONSIBILITY? NO.

I BELIEVE THAT EDUCATION IN
THE SCHOOLS IS THE KEY, REALLY.

I THINK THAT'S CRUCIAL.

NOW, IN MY TIME, I NEVER HEARD
ANYTHING

ABOUT THESE SORTS OF THINGS.

THERE WAS NO TV.
THERE WAS NO RADIO.

THERE WAS ALL THESE MOUTHS
MOVING AROUND ME.

IF I WENT TO A RESTAURANT,
EVERYBODY'S TALKING AROUND ME

ABOUT DIFFERENT THINGS, BUT I
MISSED ALL THAT INFORMATION.

I MISSED A LOT.

THERE'S A LOT OF INFORMATION
THAT GOES ON ALL AROUND US--

CULTURAL INFORMATION,
ESPECIALLY--

OR EVEN SHAKESPEARE,
WORDS USED IN SHAKESPEARE,

THINGS THAT ARE QUOTES FROM
SHAKESPEARE,

THINGS THAT I JUST MISSED.

SO A LOT OF THINGS IN THE ART
WORLD THAT I MISSED, TOO.

AND I NEED TO FIND THOSE THINGS
THAT I THINK ARE LACKING

AND PUT THEM INTO THE SCHOOLS.

IT'S NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY, NO,
BUT SOMETHING I TRY TO DO.

AND I FEEL THAT--I DON'T KNOW--
IT'S IMPORTANT TO SHOW

WHAT DEAF PEOPLE ARE MISSING,
TRY TO MAKE UP FOR THAT.

FIRST OF ALL I CREATE MY POETRY
FOR MYSELF.

I'M VERY SELFISH THAT WAY.

IT'S ALL ABOUT ME PLAYING,
ME HAVING A GOOD TIME,

AND THEN I WANT TO PRESENT IT
TO OTHERS.

FINDING OUT IF THEY LIKE IT OR
DON'T LIKE IT

IS PRETTY IMPORTANT.

IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT,
I'M DISAPPOINTED.

IF THEY DO
LIKE IT, I'M THRILLED.

SO THERE'S ALWAYS A MESSAGE
WITHIN IT--POLITICAL SOMETIMES.

I HAVE A NEW POEM.

IT'S ABOUT THE FACT THAT
A HUNDRED MEN RAPED

A MENTALLY RETARDED GIRL.

SHE WAS 14 YEARS OLD.
A HUNDRED MEN JUST USING HER.

SHE WAS VERY ACCEPTING OF IT.
SHE DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER.

BUT THAT'S JUST SICK! I'M SORRY.
IT'S JUST SICK.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING I WANTED
TO SHOW.

WHAT'S THE PURPOSE?

I WANT TO SAY TO PEOPLE,
"WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?"

IT'S NOT NECESSARILY FOR
DEAF AUDIENCES.

IT'S FOR MALE AUDIENCES, RIGHT,
IN GENERAL.

OR, YOU KNOW, A MIX OF
INFORMATION.

IT'S NOT ALWAYS JUST FOR
DEAF PEOPLE.

I WOULDN'T SAY MY WORK'S FOR
DEAF AUDIENCES.

IT'S FOR A GLOBAL AUDIENCE.

IT CAN INCLUDE DEAF PEOPLE,
OF COURSE.

BUT MY POEMS AREN'T NECESSARILY
RELATED

TO DEAFNESS OR BEING DEAF
AT ALL.

THE FIRST THING I WANT TO DO IS
SHARE THE EXPERIENCE.

YES, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT,
OF COURSE.

MY NAME IS DEBBIE Z. RENNIE.

WELL, IT STARTED WITH
SUNSHINE TOO!

I WAS GIVEN A TEXT.
IT WAS BY DOROTHY MILES.

AND I TRANSLATED IT.

IT WAS HARD.

I WANTED TO RESPECT THE POEM
ITSELF AND THE FORM.

SO IF I TRIED TO REPLICATE THAT
FORM, IT WAS REALLY DIFFICULT.

AND I FOUND IT IMPOSSIBLE.

I MEAN, MAYBE I COULD, BUT IT
WAS VERY DIFFICULT.

I WANTED TO PRESERVE
THE ARTISTRY.

WHAT I CREATED ALSO HAD
TO BE ARTISTIC

AND STILL MAINTAIN HER MEANING,

BY TAKING OFF THAT FORM
AND CREATING SOMETHING ELSE.

SO I DON'T KNOW.

I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE IT WAS

NECESSARILY
A SUCCESSFUL TRANSLATION.

I MEAN, NOBODY, YOU KNOW,
TOLD ME I WAS WRONG

OR CRITICIZED ME,
BUT I DID TRANSLATE SOME POEMS

FROM ASL TO ENGLISH.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT I DID,
IF WHAT I DID WAS ART OR NOT.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT--
HOW IMPORTANT IT IS

TO KEEP YOUR MIND OPEN TO
THE PROCESS, TO THE EXPERIENCE.

YOU MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND
SOMETHING,

BUT IT'S ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE OF
BEING THERE

AND BEING OPEN
TO THE POSSIBILITIES,

EXPERIMENTATION, AND BEING
CONSTANTLY IN A QUEST,

SEARCHING.

THE LANGUAGE ITSELF--
SIGN LANGUAGE ITSELF--

IS SO INCREDIBLY RICH.

AND I WANT TO HELP FURTHER THAT.

I THINK THAT THE FIRST
NATIONAL DEAF POETRY CONFERENCE

HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON ME.

I FELT LIKE EVERYTHING JUST
EXPLODED AT THAT MOMENT

BECAUSE PATRICK WAS THERE,
VALLI WAS THERE,

ELLA WAS THERE, PETER,
THE FIVE OF US, JIM COHN,

JIM, AS THIS HEARING PERSON,
WHO WAS THIS HEARING POET

WHO GOT THIS BALL ROLLING, AND
IT WAS A REALLY BIG MOMENT.

IT WAS A BIG IMPACT.

IT WAS JUST THIS ONE WEEKEND
OF SHARING WITH EACH OTHER,

DIFFERENT IDEAS FLOWING ABOUT.

IT REALLY HIT ME HARD,

ASL POETRY, THIS IS WHAT IT IS!

I THINK THAT EVERYTHING PREVIOUS
TO THAT WAS VERY INTERESTING

AND EXPERIMENTAL,
PEOPLE JUST SORT OF SEEING

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN
AS THEY PLAYED.

AND ALL THIS PLAYING WITH
LANGUAGE--

I'D BEEN WRITING IT,
I'D BEEN PLAYING WITH SIGNING--

BUT AT THAT MOMENT, IT WAS
A TURNING POINT.

EVERYTHING CHANGED.
IT JUST EXPLODED, REALLY.

IT COALESCED.

AND THAT REALLY HIT ME,
THE DIFFERENCES

IN ALL THE DIFFERENT
POETIC STYLES THAT I SAW.

THEN I WENT TO DEAF WAY.

AND IT WAS EVEN MORE INTENSE,
WHAT HAPPENED THERE.

IT WAS JUST INCREDIBLY COOL.

"This project is supported by a Digitizing Hidden Collections grant from the Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR). The grant program is made possible by funding from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation."

Title supplied by cataloger

Heart of the hydrogen jukebox