ds_0027_panaraginsberg_cap_02.mp4

ds_0027_panaraginsberg_cap_02.mp4

Presentation and performance front view

Ginsberg, Allen, 1926-1997

American poetry 20th century

American Sign Language

Translating and interpreting

ASL poetry

The video shows Allen Ginsberg and the interpreter, Kip Webster to his left. Allen Ginsberg discusses the influence of Ezra Pound and William Carlos Williams who emphasized the pictorial aspects in poetry. Ginsberg performs the poem, "Howl", and discusses translation issues for some abstract concepts, such as "angel-headed hipster", and "starry dynamo". He also talks about surrealism in poetry and continues to recite his poem. Patrick Graybill translates in ASL "hydrogen jukebox" and captured the image clearly. Graybill also performed the poem Dreams by Langston Hughes and the ASL translation process. Ginsberg suggests that Panara translate "The Red Wheelbarrow" by William Carlos Williams and writes the poem on the board. After discussion of the poem's meaning, Panara translates the poem. The video ends with Ginsberg performing "BirdBrain" accompanying himself with a harmonium.

National Technical Institute for the Deaf

Rochester Institute of Technology - RIT Libraries - RIT Archive Collections

Graybill, Patrick

Panara, Robert

1984

2018

moving image

mp4

VHS

63 minutes

American Sign Language

English

RITDSA.0027

Sculptures in the Air: An Accessible Online Video Repository of the American Sign Language (ASL) Poetry and Literature Collections

Miriam and Kenneth Lerner ASL Poetry Collection

2018-2019 CLIR Grant-ASL Poetry and Literature

https://albert.rit.…

https://archivesspa…

New York - Rochester

Henrietta Campus

RIT Libraries makes materials from its collections available for educational and research purposes pursuant to U.S. Copyright Law. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. It is your responsibility to obtain permission from the copyright holder to publish or reproduce images in print or electronic form.

CC BY-NC-ND: Attribution NonCommercial NoDerivatives 4.0 International

GINSBERG: THEY CENSORED IT.
HA HA HA!

SIGN LANGUAGE CENSORSHIP.

WE'LL ADD--I WOULD
LIKE TO TEST OUT

THE HARDNESS, OR CLARITY,

OF THE FIRST LINES OF
MY MOST FAMOUS POEM,

WHICH ARE PROBABLY BULLSHIT,

IN TERMS OF BEING VAGUE
AND ABSTRACT,

BECAUSE I WAS A YOUNGER POET
WHEN I WROTE IT

AND I HADN'T QUITE GOTTEN
THE IDEA

OF REALLY GETTING IT
TOTALLY CLEAR.

BUT I HAD SOME TRAINING
IN MODERN POETRY,

PARTICULARLY EZRA POUND
AND WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS.

AND THEIR IDEA WAS NO IDEAS
BUT IN THINGS,

NOT TO HAVE ANY...
UM, GENERALIZATIONS,

BUT THROUGH PICTURES,

OR TO REPRESENT ANY
GENERALIZATIONS THEY HAD

BY A MEANS OF A PICTURE.

SO, IN SPOKEN LANGUAGE,

OR WORD LANGUAGE,
THE SLOGAN

IS "NO IDEAS BUT IN THINGS."

THAT'S A PHRASE OF
WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS.

BUT I WASN'T VERY GOOD
AT THAT.

BUT WHAT I TRY TO DO IS COMBINE
PICTURE IMAGES

IN A SURREALIST WAY.

SO THE OPENING LINES,
LET'S TRY THEM OUT.

LET'S TRY OUT
THE OPENING LINES OF "HOWL."

"I SAW THE BEST MINDS
OF MY GENERATION

DESTROYED BY MADNESS..."

"STARVING, HYSTERICAL, NAKED,

"DRAGGING THEMSELVES THROUGH
THE NEGRO STREETS AT DAWN,

"LOOKING FOR AN ANGRY FIX.

ANGEL-HEADED HIPSTERS"...

[LAUGHTER]

SO THAT'S WHERE MY POETRY
BREAKS DOWN.

- HIPSTER.
- YES.

THAT'S WHERE MY
POETRY BREAKS DOWN

BECAUSE THERE I HAVE
AN ABSTRACT WORD

FOR AN ACTUAL THING.

HOWEVER, IT GETS BACK ON THE--
IT GETS BACK ON THE TRACK.

YOU KNOW, IT GETS
BACK ON THE TRACK.

"ANGEL-HEADED HIPSTERS

BURNING FOR THE ANCIENT
HEAVENLY CONNECTION..."

"TO THE STARRY DYNAMO IN
THE MACHINERY OF NIGHT."

NOW, I ALWAYS WONDERED
ABOUT THAT PHRASE--

"THE STARRY DYNAMO IN
THE MACHINERY OF NIGHT."

IT HAS A PICTURE OF SOME KIND

THAT IS A VERY INDEFINITE
PICTURE.

THE STARRY DYNAMO ACTUALLY
COULD BE IMAGINED...

BUT WE HAVE TO TRANSLATE IT
INTO SIGN LANGUAGE,

WHAT'S LEFT.

A STARRY DYNAMO.

IS THERE ANY KIND OF PICTURE
SUGGESTED?

WHAT'S THE STARRY?

MAN: STARRY?

GINSBERG: AS A DYNAMO.

MAN: A DYNAMO IS A MACHINE.

GINSBERG: AHH. SO YOU HAVE
A VERY GENERAL MACHINE THERE,

NOT THE MACHINE THAT CREATES
ELECTRICITY.

MAN: YEAH, IT IS.

GINSBERG: WHEN THAT WAS
TRANSLATED INTO SIGN LANGUAGE--

PANARA: POWERFUL.

GINSBERG: WAS THE WORD
"DYNAMO,"

THE CREATOR OF POWER?
THE CREATOR OF POWER?

SO THEN IT BECOMES--

PANARA: SOMETHING
LIKE THAT, YEAH.

GINSBERG: THEN IT
BECOMES A QUESTION

OF THE SUBTLETY OF
THE SIGN LANGUAGE.

PANARA: WE IGNORE
THE THINGS. WHY?

BECAUSE OF THE SIMPLE FACT
THAT WE HAVE ONLY TWO HANDS.

GINSBERG: YES.

PANARA: AND AFTER A WHILE,
YOU START TO DUPLICATE

CONFIGURATIONS OF--

WE HAVE TO MAKE
COMPOUND SIGNS--

ADD A SECOND AND A THIRD
SIGN TO GET AT ONE MEANING,

SOMETHING LIKE
THE CHINESE LANGUAGE, RIGHT?

ALMOST THE SAME.

GINSBERG: SO WHAT IS THE FATE
OF SURREALISM

IN SIGN LANGUAGE?

ARE YOU AT ALL FAMILIAR WITH
SURREALIST POETRY?

PANARA: YES. SOME, YEAH.

GINSBERG: THE DEFINITION WAS
A VERY INTERESTING PICTURE.

THE ORIGINAL DEFINITION
OF SURREALISM

BY ANDRE BRETON

WAS THE MEETING OF AN UMBRELLA
AND A SEWING MACHINE

ON AN OPERATING TABLE.

[LAUGHTER]

WHAT KIND OF SENSE DOES
THAT MAKE?

THE MEETING OF AN UMBRELLA
AND A SEWING MACHINE

ON AN OPERATING TABLE.

MAN: MAKES ME
THINK OF A DALI.

GINSBERG: YES, EXACTLY. YES.

PUTTING TOGETHER THINGS
WHICH ARE OPPOSITE,

WHICH DON'T BELONG TOGETHER,

BUT WHEN YOU SEE THEM
TOGETHER,

THEY'RE REALLY FUNNY

AND THEY MAKE A WHOLE NEW--
A NEW UNIVERSE.

SO I WAS INFLUENCED--

PANARA: AND YOU SEE,
WE ALSO ADD FINGERSPELLING.

GINSBERG: YEAH.

PANARA: THERE'S NO REASON
WHY A COMBINATION

OF SOUNDS WITH FINGERSPELLING
CONVEY

THE MEANING OF THE POEM.

I LIKED YOUR POEM YESTERDAY,
"BIRDBRAIN."

- YES.
- HE DID A MARVELOUS JOB.

WOULD YOU DO THAT TODAY?
JUST A GREAT JOB.

GINSBERG: IN A MINUTE,
BUT THERE'S A COUPLE

OF OTHER LINES I WANT
TO CHECK OUT FROM HERE.

MY FAVORITE LINE
IN "HOWL" IS, UH...

"WHO SAT ALL NIGHT
IN SUBMARINE LIGHT

"OF BICKFORD'S CAFETERIA,

"FLOATED OUT ON THE STREET

"AND SAT THROUGH THE STALE
BEER AFTERNOON

"IN DESOLATE BEER BARS

"LISTENING TO THE CRACK
OF DOOM

ON THE HYDROGEN JUKEBOX."

[LAUGHTER]

SO, NOW, WHAT IS A "HYDROGEN
JUKEBOX" IN SIGN LANGUAGE?

A HYDROGEN JUKEBOX.

'CAUSE THAT REFERS TO
A SOUND THING,

THE JUKEBOX, ANYWAY.

A JUKEBOX IS A MECHANICAL
RECORD MACHINE

IN THE BARS.

MAN: I UNDERSTAND IT,
BUT WHY DO YOU PICK
THAT WORD "HYDROGEN"?

GINSBERG: OH, THE HYDROGEN,
THE HYDROGEN BOMB.

THE NOISE OF THE JUKEBOX
IS APOCALYPTIC.

SO THE EMERGENCE OF THAT KIND OF
ROCK 'N' ROLL

AND THAT KIND OF HEAVY NOISE

IS ALMOST LIKE THE BEGINNING
OF THE EXPLOSION

OF THE END OF THE WORLD.

PANARA: BUT THEN WE WOULD
HAVE TO SAY "A."

AND BEING DEAF
WOULD KNOW "A-BOMB."

GINSBERG: EXCEPT I WAS TALKING--

WE HAVE THE H-BOMB NOW.

- OR THE "H."
- IT'S BIGGER.

PANARA: YEAH, WELL,
WE WOULD USE THE "H,"

WE WOULD USE THE H-BOMB.

GINSBERG: YOU'D USE H-BOMB.
PANARA: H-BOMB.

GINSBERG: I SEE. SO THAT WAS
MY FAVORITE PHRASE,

"HYDROGEN JUKEBOX."

BUT IT DOES DEPEND ON--

IT'S A VERY ABSTRACT ONE.

IT'S TWO CONCRETE THINGS.
THERE'S A JUKEBOX,

AND THEN THERE'S HYDROGEN.

HYDROGEN IS REAL
AND THE JUKEBOX IS REAL.

AND WHEN YOU PUT THEM TOGETHER,

IT MAKES AN UNUSUAL
KIND OF JUKEBOX.

MAN: YES, BUT IF I HAD TO
SIGN WITHOUT THINKING OF

THE ENGLISH WORDS...
- YEAH.

I WOULD MAKE SOME KIND OF
COMPOUND.

THERE'D BE SEVERAL SIGNS
THAT YOU COULD USE

TO EXPLAIN THE PICTURE
THAT I MIGHT GET

FROM THOSE TWO WORDS.

GINSBERG: YEAH. BUT WHAT I'M
WONDERING IS,

ONCE IT IS EXPLAINED,

DOES ANY KIND OF INTERESTING
SPARKLE COME THROUGH

WITH THAT COMBINATION?

OR DOES THAT GO DEAD

IN TRANSLATION?

EVERYTHING TRANSLATES--

MAN: LET ME TRY.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S
WHAT YOU WANT.

[LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE]

GINSBERG: THAT LOOKS
LIKE IT.

PANARA: THAT WAS GOOD.

GINSBERG: THAT LOOKS LIKE IT.

[LAUGHTER]

AND WHAT WERE THE SIGNS
YOU WERE MAKING?

STUDENT: OK, MUSIC,

BOX.

GINSBERG: BOX.

IT TRANSLATES--
INTERPRET.

STUDENT: MUSIC AND THEN I MADE
A SIGN TO SHOW

THE SHAPE OF THE BOX.

A MUSIC BOX,

I TAKE A COIN, PUT IT IN.

A RECORD FLOPS OVER,

THE NEEDLE STARTS SPINNING
IN THE NEEDLE'S EYE,

STARTS MAKING NOISE,

AND THEN THERE'S A BOMB.

GINSBERG: WOW.
THAT'S REALLY GOOD.

THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER HAIKU.

[LAUGHTER]

- BUT--
- TRUE.

BUT WHAT'S GOOD ABOUT IT

IS LIKE IT'S A WHOLE
COMPLETE POEM

BECAUSE, SO, MY
INTERPRETATION--THAT MEANS

WHEN YOU PUT MUSIC IN A BOX

AND HAVE TO PAY FOR IT

AND IT BECOMES MECHANICAL
REPETITION,

IT MIGHT LEAD TO A NOISE THAT
MIGHT BLOW UP THE WORLD.

IN OTHER WORDS, YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT THE WHOLE NATURE

OF THE MECHANICAL,
TECHNOLOGICAL,

PUTTING HUMAN MUSIC INTO A BOX
WITH MONEY,

'CAUSING AN EXPLOSION,

WHICH IS A HAIKU IN ITSELF.

THERE'S A LOGICAL JUMP IN THAT.

THERE'S A WHOLE 'NOTHER--
IT'S A WHOLE OTHER POEM,

MINE AND ANOTHER LAYER OF IT.

IT'S GREAT.

THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

PANARA: SO YOU SEE PAT DO SOME
OTHER THINGS SOMETIMES. HA HA!

HE DOES THE "SEVEN AGES
OF MAN," SHAKESPEARE.

MAN: I FORGOT THE WORDS.

I CAN SHOW ONE FAVORITE
POEM OF MINE.

PANARA: FINE.

STUDENT: LANGSTON HUGHES.

"DREAMS."

DO YOU KNOW THAT ONE?

YOU WANT ME TO WRITE IT UP
ON THE BOARD?

GINSBERG: SURE.

PANARA: SURE.

GINSBERG: IS HE GOOD AT THAT?

[LAUGHTER]

SO FOR HIM, POETRY IS ALL
CLEAR PICTURE,

NO SOUND AT ALL.

NEVER HAVE--NEVER ANY SOUND
ELEMENT.

PANARA: THAT'S TRUE,
AND THAT'S REMARKABLE.

[INDISTINCT]

PANARA: LANGSTON HUGHES.

LANGSTON HUGHES.
BLACK POET. HE WROTE THAT.

PAT: AS YOU KNOW, I'VE NO--

AS I SAID, I HAVE
NO SENSE OF RHYTHM

BECAUSE I NEVER HEARD SOUND.

BUT I'VE HAD TO TRANSLATE THAT
INTO A VISUAL IMAGE.

SO I CAN'T SIGN THE FIRST LINE
AS IT SAYS,

"HOLD FAST--HOLD FAST
TO DREAMS."

I NEED TO SET UP THINGS
FIRST.

GINSBERG: I THINK THAT'S
BECAUSE THAT LINE

IS VERY ABSTRACT.

IT'S WORSE THAN
"HYDROGEN JUKEBOX."

- EXACTLY!
- HA HA HA!

MAN: OK.

LET ME TRY.

[LAUGHTER]

[APPLAUSE]

GINSBERG: WELL, THE MASTER
OF PICTORIAL POETRY

IN THE 20th CENTURY
WAS WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS.

HAS HE BEEN MUCH WORKED WITH

IN TERMS OF DEAF LANGUAGE
AND SIGN LANGUAGE?

ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH
"WHEELBARROW"?

THE "WHEELBARROW." HOW IS--
HOW IS WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS--

HIS MOST FAMOUS POEM IS
"THE RED WHEELBARROW."

HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE
HAVE HEARD OF IT?

HOW MANY HAVE NOT HEARD OF IT?

OF THE DEAF, HOW MANY HAVE HEARD
OF "THE RED WHEELBARROW?"

AND HOW MANY HAVE NOT
HEARD OF IT?

RAISE YOUR HAND IF YOU'VE NOT
HEARD OF IT.

OK, THEN LET'S DO THAT ONE.

CAN YOU DO THAT?

"SO MUCH DEPENDS

"UPON A RED WHEELBARROW

"GLAZED WITH RAINWATER

BESIDE THE WHITE CHICKENS."

LET'S HAVE A BIG FORMAL ONE,

LIKE A BIG SHOW OF IT.

CAN YOU DO THAT ONE?

PANARA: WRITE IT DOWN?

GINSBERG: HERE, HERE, HERE.

YEAH.

THAT'S THE MOST--

IT'S THE MOST FAMOUS--

PANARA: I'VE HEARD IT ONCE
OR TWICE BEFORE.

GINSBERG: IT'S THE MOST FAMOUS
IMAGIST POEM

OF THE CENTURY.

SO I'LL WRITE IT DOWN.

AND WE'LL GET STARTED
ON INTRODUCING IMAGES...

WITH A CLEAN SLATE.

MAN: [INDISTINCT]

GINSBERG: I DON'T REMEMBER HOW
IT GOES IN TERMS OF THE LINES.

OH, ACTUALLY, I'M SORRY.

LET ME GET IT STRAIGHT.

COULD MR. PANARA TRY THAT?

THE DIFFICULT PART,

THE MYSTERIOUS PART

IS "SO MUCH DEPENDS,"

THE FIRST TWO LINES.

THE REST IS A REAL
CLEAR PICTURE.

MAN: YES, I'M TRYING TO FIGURE
OUT WHAT THOSE WORDS MEAN.

GINSBERG: WELL, ACTUALLY,
I THINK--

I THINK--MY INTERPRETATION IS
SO MUCH OF OUR INTELLIGENCE

DEPENDS ON OUR BEING ABLE
TO SEE THAT CLEARLY.

SO MUCH OF POETRY DEPENDS

ON BEING ABLE TO SEE
A SINGLE IMAGE,

A SINGLE PICTURE

OF REAL LIFE IN ALL OF ITS
LUMINOUS DETAIL.

SO MUCH OF OUR PERCEPTION
DEPENDS

AND SO MUCH OF OUR
COMMUNICATION DEPENDS

ON OUR BEING ABLE TO SEE
PRECISELY

AND SPEAK PRECISELY ABOUT
WHAT WE CAN SEE.

ALSO, MAYBE SO MUCH IN
THE GARDEN

DEPENDS ON THE WHEELBARROW.

SO MUCH WORK IN THE GARDEN.

SO THE FIRST TWO LINES ARE LIKE

THE PHILOSOPHICAL, MORAL
EDITORIAL,

AND THEY CONTRADICT THE POEM.

IT MAY BE "SO MUCH DEPENDS
UPON" INSTEAD OF "ON,"

I DON'T KNOW.

LET ME...

MAYBE I WAS WRONG.

PROBABLY IT MEANS "SO MUCH
IMPORTANCE."

"LOTS OF IMPORTANCE."

OR...

MAN: I FEEL THAT PUT THE
FIRST TWO LINES AT THE BOTTOM

OF THE POEM.

GINSBERG: YES.

BUT I THINK WILLIAMS
WANTED YOU--

TO LEAVE YOU WITH A PICTURE

RATHER THAN WITH THE IDEA.

IT JUST WASN'T THE PURE PICTURE.

"SO MUCH DEPENDS" IS SORT OF
THE EXCUSE

FOR BRINGING THE PICTURE.

PANARA: PUZZLE!
HA HA HA!

[LAUGHTER]

GINSBERG: WHAT POINT
PUZZLED HIM?

THE "SO MUCH DEPENDS" OR THE--

PANARA: WELL, REALLY,
I OMITTED THIS.

GINSBERG: THE RAINWATER?

GLAZED WITH RAIN, YEAH.

PANARA: AND WE HAVE TO HAVE
THAT, TOO.

GINSBERG: THAT'S REAL PICTURE--
THAT'S REAL PICTURE, THOUGH.

PANARA: MM-HMM.

THAT'S WHY, AS PAT SAID,

WE HAVE TO ADD
THE COMPOUND,

AND THAT WILL EXTEND
THE PICTURE, YEAH.

GINSBERG: WHAT'S REALLY--
PANARA: VERY SIMPLE, YEAH.

GINSBERG: WHAT I FIND
INTERESTING IN THIS

IS THIS POEM IS SUPPOSED
TO BE THE CLASSIC

OF PICTORIAL SIMPLICITY,

BUT IT ACTUALLY ISN'T.

YES.

MAN: THE WAY HE
HANDLED IT, THOUGH,

HE ELIMINATED THE [INDISTINCT]
STUFF,

AND IT WAS JUST IMPLICIT

THE WAY HE WAS LOOKING AT IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK,
IN SIGN POETRY,

YOU WOULD HAVE TO REALLY
SET UP THE PICTURE

AND ALL THE DETAIL,

AND IT WOULD BE--
IT WOULD HAVE THE SAME EFFECT.

GINSBERG: AND HE DID SET UP
THE PICTURE.

THE SUBTLE THING, "GLAZED
WITH RAIN WATER"--

THAT SHINY THING.

IT'S LIKE A VERMEER PAINTING.

OK. WHAT--OH, OK.

"BIRDBRAIN," YES.

PANARA: [INDISTINCT]
HARMONIUM.

GINSBERG: WELL, NOBODY
CAN HEAR IT.

PANARA: OH, YES. HA HA HA!

SEE, HE'S GOT THE RHYTHM.

YEAH, IT'S THE SAME.

GINSBERG: FOR--IS THERE ANY
POINT IN DOING

ANYTHING WITH HARMONIUM?

I DON'T THINK SO.

NO, WE'RE RUNNING
OUT OF TIME.

- WELL, I--FOR WHO?
- SURE, SURE.

AH, BUT I--WELL, DO BOTH THEN.

BUT I WAS INTERESTED
IN DOING--

IN TRYING TO FOLLOW

JIM COHEN'S SUGGESTION
AND DO "BIRDBRAIN"

OR DO SOME LINES OF "BIRDBRAIN."

NO, WE'LL LEAVE IT DOWN.

SO I'LL DO IT WITH
THE HARMONIUM.

JUST COMBINE THEM BOTH.

DO YOU HAVE THE TEXT?

[PLAYING HARMONIUM]

BIRDBRAIN RUNS THE WORLD.

BIRDBRAIN IS THE ULTIMATE
PRODUCT OF CAPITALISM.

BIRDBRAIN, CHIEF BUREAUCRAT
OF RUSSIA,

YAWNING.

BIRDBRAIN RAN THE FBI
30 YEARS,

APPOINTED BY
FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT

AND NEVER CHASED COSA NOSTRA.

BIRDBRAIN APPORTIONS
WHEAT TO BE BURNED,

KEEP PRICES UP IN
THE WORLD MARKET.

BIRDBRAIN NEVER GETS
LAID ON HIS OWN.

HE DEPENDS ON HIS OFFICE
TO PIMP FOR HIM.

BIRDBRAIN OFFERS BRAIN
TRANSPLANTS IN SWITZERLAND.

BIRDBRAIN WAKES UP IN
THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT

AND ARRANGES HIS SHEETS.

I AM BIRDBRAIN.

I RULE RUSSIA, YUGOSLAVIA,

THE UNITED STATES,

EASTMAN'S SCHOOL OF MUSIC,

ROCHESTER, RIT.

BIRDBRAIN CLUBS BABY
HARP SEALS

AND WEARS THEIR COATS
TO PARIS.

BIRDBRAIN RUNS THE PENTAGON.

HIS BROTHER RUNS THE CIA.

FAT-ASS BUCKS.

WHAT IS FAT-ASS BUCKS?

BIRDBRAIN IS POPE, PREMIER,
PRESIDENT,

COMMISSAR, CHAIRMAN, SENATOR.

BIRDBRAIN VOTED REAGAN
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

BIRDBRAIN PREPARES WONDER BREAD

WITH REFINED WHITE FLOUR.

BIRDBRAIN WORE A MUSTACHE

AND WAS DICTATOR OF GERMANY

THE LAST YEAR OF WORLD WAR II.

BIRDBRAIN CONCEIVED
THE FINAL SOLUTION

TO THE JEWISH PROBLEM
OF EUROPE.

BIRDBRAIN CARRIED IT OUT
IN GAS CHAMBERS.

TURN THE PAGE.

BIRDBRAIN OUTLAWED OPIUM
ON THE WORLD MARKET.

BIRDBRAIN FORMED
THE BLACK MARKET IN OPIUM.

BIRDBRAIN'S FATHER
SHOT HEROIN INTO HIS ARMS

IN THE HALLWAYS OF
THE LOWER EAST SIDE.

BIRDBRAIN ORGANIZED
OPERATION CONDOR

TO SPRAY POISON FUMES

ON THE MARIJUANA FIELDS
OF MEXICO.

BIRDBRAIN GOT SICK
IN HARVARD SQUARE

FROM SMOKING MEXICAN GRASS.

BIRDBRAIN ARRIVED IN EUROPE

TO CONQUER
COCKROACHES WITH PROPAGANDA.

BIRDBRAIN BECAME
A GREAT INTERNATIONAL POET

WHO WENT AROUND THE WORLD

SINGING THE GLORIES
OF BIRDBRAIN.

HE BUILT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER
ON NEW YORK HARBOR

WITHOUT PLANNING WHERE
THE TOILETS WOULD EMPTY.

HE BEGAN CHOPPING DOWN
THE AMAZON RAINFORESTS

TO BUILD A WOOD PULP FACTORY
ON THE RIVER BANK.

BIRDBRAIN IN BELFAST

THROWS BOMBS AT
HIS MOTHER'S ASS.

BIRDBRAIN AUTHORED THE BIBLE,

WROTE "THE WEALTH OF NATIONS,"

WROTE "DAS KAPITAL."

HE INVENTED
THE THEORY OF RELATIVITY

SO THAT ROCKWELL CORPORATION

COULD MANUFACTURE NEUTRON BOMBS

IN COLORADO.

BIRDBRAIN'S GOING TO SEE

HOW LONG HE CAN GO
WITHOUT COMING.

BIRDBRAIN THINKS
HIS DONG WILL GROW BIG THAT WAY.

BIRDBRAIN BECAME--REALIZED--

BIRDBRAIN REALIZED HE WAS
A BUDDHA

BY MEDITATING.

BIRDBRAIN'S AFRAID HE'S GOING TO
BLOW UP THE PLANET,

SO HE WROTE THIS POEM
TO BE IMMORTAL.

[MUSIC STOPS]

[APPLAUSE]

TIME IS IT?

11:00 ON THE NOSE.

MAN: THANK YOU.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

[APPLAUSE]

FOLLOWING THIS CLASS,
WE'LL MEET AGAIN.

WHAT DAY ARE WE?
NEXT MONDAY.

WE HAVE FOOD IN THE BACK.

PLEASE HELP YOURSELF.

[APPLAUSE]

[INDISTINCT CHATTER]

MAN: UM...MAINLY A KIND OF,
YOU KNOW, JUST A PERSONAL--

[AUDIO CUTS OUT]

[COLOR BAR TONE]

WOMAN: ...OF THE SPEAKERS

WERE IMMEDIATELY
CLEAR IN THE SIGNING.

AND YOU COULD--THE CLOSER
THE SPEAKER

TO A POETIC UTTERANCE,

THE WHOLE SIGNING CHANGED.

IT WAS VERY INTERESTING,
VERY INTERESTING

BECAUSE THE NAME OF CHRIST
CAME UP SO OFTEN WITH THE...

ESPECIALLY THE MINISTERS
WHO SPOKE

BUT THE WORD FOR "CHRIST"
IN SIGNING IS...

YEAH.

AND YOU REALLY GOT
A TREMENDOUS SENSE

OF WHAT WAS GOING ON,

TO WATCH BACK AND FORTH.

"GLAZED"--WHAT COULD YOU DO?

WAS THAT A VISUAL, OR...

GINSBERG: WELL, SURE--

HOW DID THEY TRANSLATE "GLAZE"?
DID ANYBODY NOTICE?

IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

LIKE THIS.

MAN: THAT'S RIGHT.

[INDISTINCT]

SECOND MAN: THE GLAZE WAS...

GINSBERG: WAS REALLY...OH.

OH, "SNOW"?
THIS IS "SNOW," HUH?

A LITTLE SLOW...

SO, HOW DO WE--YOU'RE GONNA
ASK ME QUESTIONS OR WHAT?

MAN: YEAH. AND ANYONE WHO WANTS
TO ASK ANYTHING,

I'D LIKE TO HAVE THEM JUST
JUMP IN, TOO.

I'D JUST LIKE TO GET YOU
TALKING.

I MEAN, I DON'T HAVE ANY
SPECIFIC QUESTIONS.

GINSBERG: YEAH, RIGHT.

LIKE WHAT? ABOUT WHAT?

MAN: WELL, START OUT WITH
JUST WHEN WAS--

WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST--
WHEN WAS YOUR FIRST

KNOWLEDGE OF WILLIAMS?

AND WAS THERE ANYTHING--

WAS IT AT AN EARLIER AGE
THAN EVEN OTHER POETS

WOULD HAVE BEEN BECAUSE
YOU WERE IN PATERSON?

GINSBERG: MM-HMM.
ARE WE READY?

MAN: I DON'T THINK SO?
ARE WE--

WE'RE GOING? OK.

WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST KNOWLEDGE OF
WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS?

GINSBERG: WELL, NOT MUCH WHEN
I WAS VERY YOUNG

BECAUSE MY FATHER WAS A POET

AND HE WAS KNOWN IN PATERSON,
NEW JERSEY

AS PATERSON'S PRINCIPLE POET,
LOUIS GINSBERG.

AND HE DIDN'T LIKE EZRA POUND
OR T.S. ELIOT,

NOR DID HE LIKE WILLIAM
CARLOS WILLIAMS,

'CAUSE THEY ALL WROTE MODERN
POETRY WITHOUT RHYMES.

SO MY FATHER WAS A LITTLE UPSET
AND MAYBE A LITTLE JEALOUS

'CAUSE THEY WERE CONSIDERED
AVANT-GARDE AND MORE FAMOUS.

HOWEVER, THERE WAS
A LABOR NEWSPAPER

THAT BEGAN--SOME FRIENDS OF
MY FATHER STARTED,

THE "NEW JERSEY LABOR HERALD,"
OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT,

FROM PATERSON.

"PATERSON PRESS," A WEEKLY.

AND I GOT INTERESTED
IN WILLIAMS

'CAUSE I READ A LITTLE BOOK
OF HIS CALLED "THE WEDGE,"

WRITTEN DURING THE WAR

AT COLUMBIA COLLEGE IN
THE BROWSING ROOM.

AND IT WAS PUT OUT, I THINK,
BY CUMMINGTON PRESS.

AND I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT
AT ALL.

ACTUALLY, NOW I READ IT
AND IT'S VERY CLEAR.

BUT IN THOSE DAYS,
I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND IT

'CAUSE IT DIDN'T RHYME,
BUT I WAS USED TO THAT.

AND IT DIDN'T SEEM TO HAVE
THE SAME TINKLE, TINKLE

THAT REGULAR POETRY
THAT I KNEW OF HAD.

AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHY IT
WAS SO CLEAN

AND SO LIKE A SKYSCRAPER
OR SOMETHING, SO MODERN.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS
TRYING TO DO.

SO I ARRANGED THROUGH
THE "PATERSON PRESS"

TO GO AND INTERVIEW WILLIAMS
WHEN I WAS 17 OR 18 YEARS OLD,

TO GO TO HIS HOUSE
IN RUTHERFORD,

TO HIS DOCTOR'S OFFICE

AND ASK HIM WHAT HE MEANT.

ACTUALLY, HOW HE--WHAT HE WAS
INTERESTED IN.

SO I PHONED AND I GOT
AN INTERVIEW WITH HIM,

AND I WENT THERE AND WAITED
IN HIS DOCTOR'S OFFICE,

AND THEN FINALLY HE WAS
FINISHED WITH HIS PATIENTS

AND HE HAD A HALF AN HOUR
OR AN HOUR TO SPEND WITH ME.

HE SHOWED ME HIS HOUSE
AND SHOWED ME WHERE HE WRITES

UPSTAIRS IN A ROOM.

THEN I SAT DOWN WITH HIM
IN THE LITTLE DOCTOR'S OFFICE

AND WE TALKED.

AND I SAID, "DO YOU THINK OF
YOURSELF AS A POET OR A DOCTOR?"

AND HE SAID, "DOCTOR."

... ILLUSIONS,

BECAUSE I THOUGHT, "OH, GEE,
HE'S GONNA THINK OF HIMSELF,

HE'S A POET IN DISGUISE
AS A DOCTOR."

BUT NO, HE'S A DOCTOR IN
DISGUISE AS A POET.

OR HE WAS JUST PUTTING ME ON.

OR ELSE HE JUST WAS GIVING ME
VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD--

HE WAS A DOCTOR.
HE WAS A DOCTOR.

HE WAS JUST TRYING TO GET
AN ORDINARY THING.

AND I SAID, "WELL, WHAT IS IT
YOU'RE TRYING TO DO?"

AND HE SAID, "WELL,"

THEN HE SHOWED ME HIS
PRESCRIPTION PAD.

AND HE HAD WRITTEN ON IT,
"I'LL KICK YUH EYE."

"I'LL KICK Y-U-H E-Y-E."

"YUH EYE."

"I'LL KICK YUH EYE."

HE SAID HE HEARD SOME POLISH GUY
SAYING THAT.

"I'LL KICK YUH EYE."

HE SAYS, "NOW, HOW COULD YOU PUT
THAT INTO IAMBIC PENTAMETER,

"OR--IT DOESN'T FIT.
YOU CAN'T MEASURE IT THAT WAY.

"'I'LL KICK YUH EYE.'

"I'M LOOKING FOR A WAY
OF MEASURING THE SPEECH
AROUND RUTHERFORD,

"THE SPEECH I HEAR,
THE TALK I HEAR,

THE WAY PEOPLE TALK HERE."

THEN...

THEN I WENT HOME AND I WROTE UP
THIS INTERVIEW.

AND I WAS VERY RESPECTFUL
BECAUSE I WAS REALLY INTERESTED,

BUT I DIDN'T STILL
UNDERSTAND HIM.

AND, WELL, IT WAS CHOPPED UP
BY THE EDITOR AND CHANGED,

AND THE FRONT WAS CHANGED
AND IT SOUNDED LIKE

I WAS MAKING FUN OF HIM.

I GOT REALLY UPSET
AND REALLY GOT ASHAMED.

IT WAS MY FIRST EXPERIENCE
WITH JOURNALISM,

OF BETTER JOURNALISM.

AND THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE
A LEFT-WING PAPER, TOO,

OR SOME KIND OF LIBERAL PAPER.

THEN ABOUT A HALF-YEAR LATER,

HE READ AT THE MUSEUM
OF MODERN ART, 1948,

AND I WENT TO HEAR HIM READ.

AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, I REALIZED
THAT HE WAS JUST TALKING,

THAT THERE WAS NO TRICK
AT ALL,

THAT THE WHOLE REASON I DIDN'T
UNDERSTAND IT

WAS I LOOKING FOR A TRICK,
AND THERE WAS NO TRICK.

IT WAS JUST STRAIGHTFORWARD
STATEMENT,

STRAIGHTFORWARD DESCRIPTION,

LIKE SOMEBODY ON HIS FRONT PORCH
TELLING ME

WHAT HE SAW THAT DAY

OR JUST TALKING ABOUT
WHAT HE THINKS.

AND THE ONE LINE THAT GAVE ME--

MADE A LIGHT BULB OPEN
IN MY HEAD,

THAT GAVE ME THE INSIGHT

WAS THE END OF A POEM
CALLED "THE CLOUDS,"

WHERE HE SAYS, "THE IMAGINATION
STRAINING AFTER

A PISMIRE, A MOTH,
A BUTTERFLY, A..."

AND HE ENDS THE POEM THAT WAY.

"STRAINING AFTER A PISMIRE,
A MOTH, A BUTTERFLY, A..."

HE LIFTED UP HIS HANDS LIKE THAT
AND BROKE THE SENTENCE OFF,

JUST LIKE I DO WHEN
I'M TALKING SOMETIMES.

"MY FATHER--" I CAN'T...
I GIVE UP.

HE JUST ENDED IT LIKE THAT.

AND I REALIZE, "OH, IT'S JUST
ALL THE VIVIDNESS.

"HE'S JUST LIKE TALKING.

"THAT'S ALL HE'S DOING
IS TALKING.

HIS CHARACTER IS NO DIFFERENT
FROM TALKING FOR REAL."

AND I SAID, "SO, THAT'S
WHAT MODERN POETRY IS.

"IT'S LIKE TALKING FOR REAL

INSTEAD OF MAKING UP SOMETHING
PRETTY TO SOUND GOOD."

SO THEN I UNDERSTOOD
WHAT HE WAS DOING.

SO THEN I WENT TO
MY NOTEBOOKS,

AND--FIRST I HAD SENT HIM--

THEN I SENT HIM SOME
POEMS OF MY OWN

THAT WERE RHYME POEMS
THAT I'D WRITTEN

AROUND PATERSON
OR COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY

THAT WERE SORT OF MYSTICAL
RHYME POEMS.

AND I SENT HIM A LONG--SENT IT
TO HIM WITH A LONG LETTER

TALKING ABOUT KEROUAC AND
BURROUGHS AND A FEW OTHER PEOPLE

AND SAYING THAT I WAS INTERESTED
IN HIS CHANGE

OF PROSODY AND METER
OR NEW METER,

BUT I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT,
WOULD LIKE TO TALK WITH HIM.

THEN HE SENT ME BACK
THE POEM SAYING,

"IN THIS MODE,
PERFECTION IS BASIC.

THESE ARE NO GOOD."

I SHOULD SAY, HE'S--

HE DIDN'T SAY,
"THESE ARE NO GOOD."

SAID, "THESE AREN'T SO
INTERESTING IN THIS MODE.

PERFECTION IS BASIC
IN THE RHYME MODE."

I SHOULD MENTION THAT WHEN
I SAW HIM,

WHAT HE LOOKED LIKE--

SORT OF SLIGHTLY STOOPED OVER,
BRISK OF APPEARANCE,

BIG NOSE, BIG, BONY NOSE.

HE WROTE A POEM ABOUT--
"YOU AND I, BONEY NOSE..."

HE'S GOT A POEM ABOUT IT.

HIGH FOREHEAD, PROMINENT BROW
OR BONE.

KIND OF A THIN FACE,
SLIGHTLY SUNKEN-CHEEKED.

A WEAK MOUTH IN THE SENSE
OF A FRIENDLY MOUTH,

NOT A STRONG DICTATOR'S MOUTH
AT ALL,

NOT A POUTING MOUTH AT ALL,

MORE OF ALMOST
A WOMANISH MOUTH.

EXTREMELY TENDER EYES,
FRIENDLY, INQUISITIVE,

COMPLETELY WIDE OPEN,
FRIENDLY, INQUISITIVE,

NO PREJUDICES AT ALL.

ODD,

LIKE A--LIKE SOME OLD LADY
SCHOOLTEACHER

WHO'S REALLY FRIENDLY.

IF YOU'VE EVER HAD A LITTLE
OLD LADY SCHOOLTEACHER

WHO WAS REALLY FRIENDLY
IN THE FOURTH GRADE

OR THE FIFTH GRADE.

JUST REALLY CURIOUS
AND INQUISITIVE AND FRIENDLY

AND LOOKING AT YOU.

"WHAT ARE YOU MADE OF?"
YOU KNOW?

"WHAT ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT?"
"WHAT ARE YOU INTERESTED IN?"

A LITTLE BIRDIE, OR...

BUT REALLY FRIENDLY.

INQUISITIVE, I WOULD SAY.

THAT WAS HIS CHARACTERISTIC,
TOTALLY VULNERABLE.

QUITE THE--NO SENSE OF FORCE

OR HEAVY ARMOR OR ANGER
OR PRIDE.

QUITE LIKE A GOOD DOCTOR
TALKING TO A BABY.

SO LIKE A GOOD DOCTOR
RELATING TO A BABY,

LIKE OPEN.

NOT TREATING HIM AS--
MAN: RECEPTIVE.

GINSBERG: RECEPTIVE,
TOTALLY RECEPTIVE.

AND AT THAT TIME, I WAS GAY,
AND I KNEW I WAS GAY.

AND I TALKED TO KEROUAC
ABOUT IT,

BUT I DIDN'T WANT HIM TO KNOW
FOR SOME REASON.

I WAS ASHAMED.

SO I TOLD HIM I WASN'T GAY.

AND HE COULD SEE THROUGH THAT.

SO THERE WAS ONE TIME...

I CAN'T REM...

THEN I SENT HIM SOME POEMS
THAT I DREW

OUT OF MY JOURNALS.

I KEPT JOURNALS OF PROSE.

AND I TOOK A COUPLE OF
PARAGRAPHS

AND ARRANGED THEM IN LINES

SO THAT THEY LOOKED LIKE
MODERN POETRY.

PROSE WAS ALL OVER THE PAGE,

BUT REALLY STRAIGHTFORWARD
PROSE LINES

THAT DESCRIBED THINGS LIKE

THE ALLEY--THE MILL STREET,
THE SMOKE IN THE ALLEYS,

THE DYE WORKS, ALL THE NEGROES
CLIMBING ALL AROUND

RUSTED IRON BY THE RIVER,

DESCRIPTIONS OF THE PASSAIC
RIVER AND LOCAL SCENES.

AND I SENT THOSE TO HIM.
I HAD 7 OF THEM.

AND HE WROTE BACK,
"THIS IS IT.

"HAVE YOU GOT ANY MORE
OF THESE?

"I SHALL SEE THAT YOU
GET A BOOK,

'CAUSE THEY'RE NOT MINE."

'CAUSE I WAS JUST TRYING TO
IMITATE WHAT HE WAS DOING.

AND I SAID, "WELL, I THINK
I'LL FAKE IT."

[LAUGHTER]

WHAT WASN'T FAKE WAS THESE
WERE THE ACTUAL NOTES I WROTE

TO MYSELF WITHOUT TRYING
TO WRITE POETRY,

JUST TRYING TO MAKE SENSE.

THE OTHER FAKE WAS
ARRANGING THEM IN LINES,

BUT THEN THAT
WASN'T FAKE, EITHER,

'CAUSE I TOOK A LOT OF TROUBLE
TO BALANCE THE LINES

AND BREAK IT UP INTO PHRASES
AS YOU MIGHT SPEAK IT,

BREAK IT UP INTO PHRASES AS YOU
MIGHT SPEAK IT,

LAY IT OUT ON THE PAGE SO IT HAD
SOME KIND OF MINDFUL ORDER,

MINDFUL ARRANGEMENT
OF THE PHRASING.

MAN: AND THEN HOW DID IT
AFFECT YOU AFTER THAT?

GINSBERG: WELL, I SUDDENLY
REALIZED,

"OH, ALL I HAVE TO DO
IS BE MYSELF.

"I DON'T HAVE TO WRITE
POETRY ANYMORE,

"I JUST BE MYSELF AND WRITE DOWN
WHAT I REALLY THINK

INSTEAD OF TRYING TO MAKE IT
INTO POETRY."

'CAUSE THE POETRY'S WHAT I
REALLY THINK ALREADY.

IT ISN'T SOMETHING THAT
YOU HAVE TO MAKE UP

AS IF I DIDN'T THINK IT,

AS IF THE POETRY WAS
TOTALLY NATURAL

AND YET IF ONE COULD BE NATURAL,

AND SO WHAT ONE REALLY THINKS
FRANKLY, VIVIDLY,

DIRECTLY, WITH CANDOR,

THAT WAS AS VIVID
AS YOU COULD GET,

AND THAT YOU ONLY SMUDGED IT
AND MADE IT MESSY

WHEN YOU TRY TO FORCE IT
INTO SOME KIND OF

OLD-FASHIONED FORM

JUST FOR THE SAKE OF
BEING SMART-ALECK ABOUT IT,

THAT THE WHOLE POINT OF TRYING
TO BE FORMALISTIC

WAS GENERALLY BEING SMART-ALECK

AND NOT REALLY SAYING WHAT YOU
WERE REALLY THINKING.

AND THE WEIRD THING WAS THAT

HE DUG WHAT I WAS
REALLY THINKING

RATHER THAN WHAT I WAS TRYING
TO COME ON WITH.

HE DUG MY NATURAL THOUGHTS,

MY NATURAL MIND,
WHAT I ACTUALLY JUST WROTE

TO MYSELF LIKE IN SUICIDE NOTES.

THOSE ARE THE THINGS HE DUG.

OR AS KEROUAC SAID IN
"PULL MY DAISY" MOVIE

WHEN HE'S LOOKING AT
GREGORY CORSO AND I

WHO ARE EXAMINING EACH OTHER'S
NOTEBOOKS--

WE HAD THESE SCRIBBLED
NOTEBOOKS.

AND ROBERT FRANK PUTS
HIS CAMERA ON IT,

HE SAYS, "OH, THERE THEY DO
THE LITTLE SECRET

SCATOLOGICAL SCRIBBLES,"

WHICH IS, OF COURSE, WHAT
EVERYBODY'S INTERESTED IN,

RATHER THAN WHAT WE SHOW
THE PUBLIC,

YOU KNOW, AS IF IT'S
YOUR WORK OF ART

LIKE NAPOLEON OR SOMETHING.

SO, WHITMAN LIKED CANDOR ALSO.

THEN ONE DAY TO...

I SAID--'CAUSE HE WAS WRITING
THIS BIG, LONG POEM, "PATERSON,"

AND I'M FROM PATERSON.

SO I SAID--AND APPARENTLY
HE DUG THE FACT

THAT SOMEBODY FROM
PATERSON ITSELF,

SOME YOUNG KID, SLIGHTLY CRAZY
BUT ILLUMINATED YOUNG KID

WOULD WRITE HIM BACK.

AND IT WAS LIKE A RESPONSE
FROM THE STREETS.

LIKE HE HAD BEEN INVOKING
THE SPIRIT OF PATERSON

AND ALL OF A SUDDEN,
THERE WAS SOMEBODY

THAT WAS A LITTLE BIT SENSITIVE
ABOUT POEMS

ABOUT MILL STREET AND THE SMOKE
AND NEGROES CLIMBING

AROUND RUSTED IRON
BY THE RIVER,

WHICH IS JUST LIKE
HIS OWN EYE.

SO WE MADE AN APPOINTMENT,

AND HE CAME AND PICKED ME UP
AT MY HOUSE IN PATERSON.

AND HE SAID, "WELL, I'LL BE
YOUR DATE TONIGHT."

AND WE WENT DOWN TO
RIVER STREET

BY THE PASSAIC RIVER,

WHICH IS THE NEIGHBORHOOD
WHERE I GREW UP,

AND I SHOWED HIM ALL
THE ARCHETYPAL KEROUACIAN...

IMAGE--HOUSES AND DRUG STORES
AND MARKETS

AND BACKYARD FENCES AND PORCHES

THAT I MYTHOLOGIZED TO MYSELF
OR WITH KEROUAC

WHEN I WAS GROWING UP--

THE ARCHETYPAL MEMORY PLACES
IN MY EXISTENCE

IN PATERSON
TO GIVE HIM SOME SENSE

OF THE GROUND, OR HOW IT
LOOKED TO ME.

SO WE TOOK A BIG WALK BY
THE PASSAIC RIVER

AND FOUND ONE SPOT WHERE
THE HOUSES HAD BEEN TORN DOWN,

AND THERE WAS ACTUALLY
A LITTLE RUBBLE

AND YOU COULD ACTUALLY GET
TO THE WATER.

AND I BENT DOWN

AND I'M SORT OF DIGGING UP THE
RUBBLE LIKE AN ARCHAEOLOGIST

AND SAID, "WELL, HERE'S
AN OLD RAZOR BLADE

"AND HERE'S AN OLD
TOOTHPASTE CAP

AND CONDOMS AND POT, STEEL
KNIVES, NOTHING STAINLESS."

THAT IS TO SAY, JUST
WHATEVER WAS THERE

AS BEING THE POETRY OF PATERSON,

THE POEM OF THE RIVERBANK.

WHAT WAS ACCUMULATED, WE'RE
NOW THROWING AWAY LIFETIMES.

AND THEN I WENT WITH HIM
AROUND TO A--

THERE'S A LITTLE DRAINAGE POOL
BEHIND ONE OF THE FACTORIES

UP AROUND MILL STREET
IN PATERSON,

NEAR THE FALLS,

WHICH WAS A POND.

THE DYE FACTORY--
THEY DYED THE SILK THERE.

PATERSON'S A SILK CITY,

AND THE LITTLE POND WOULD RUN
OFF WATER FROM THE FACTORY.

THERE WAS A PLACE WHERE KIDS
USED TO GO NAKED

IN THE SUMMER AND SWIM.

RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE
OF THE FACTORY BUILDINGS,

THE INDUSTRIAL LANDSCAPE,

THERE'S THIS LITTLE PASTORAL
POND LIKE AN OLD POND

IN 19th-CENTURY
AMERICAN PAINTINGS.

AND I REMEMBER
GOING THERE AS A KID,

AND I WAS TOTALLY ASTOUNDED.

IT WAS THE FIRST PLACE
I EVER SAW EVERYBODY NAKED,

ALL THOSE GUYS NAKED.

I WAS TOO YOUNG TO
RECOGNIZE SEX,

BUT THERE WAS SOMETHING
THAT STIRRED ME.

AND I REMEMBER, SO I TOLD
WILLIAMS ABOUT

SOMETHING THAT I HAD SEEN
WHEN I WAS ABOUT 7.

THERE WAS THIS OLDER BIG BULLY,
HAD A LITTLE PUBIC HAIR,

AND THERE WAS THIS LITTLE
SHIVERING RUNT.

AND THE BIG BULLY WAS
THREATENING AND PERSECUTING

THE LITTLE SHIVERING RUNT.

AND THEY HAD GOTTEN ACROSS
THE POND

ONTO A LITTLE LEDGE
OF SANDSTONE

BACKED BY A FENCE.

AND ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE
WAS A 20-FOOT REAL POND DROP,

A LITTLE WATERFALL DROP.

AND THE BULLY WAS THREATENING
TO PUSH THE KID OVER.

AND EVERYBODY ELSE WAS
SORT OF INDIFFERENT,

AND THERE WAS THIS KID
SHIVERING, BLUE-BODIED,

SCREAMING IN TERROR

AS HE'S BEING PUSHED CLOSER
AND CLOSER TO THE WATERFALL.

BUT I STILL REMEMBER THAT

AS PARTLY AS AN EROTIC IMAGE,

PARTLY AS LIKE A FEAR IMAGE.

SO I TOLD WILLIAMS ABOUT IT

'CAUSE I WAS TRYING
TO DELIVER TO HIM

WHAT WAS THE PSYCHE OF PATERSON,
ACTUALLY.

THAT WAS THE STRONGEST IMAGE
I REMEMBER FROM CHILDHOOD

IN THE STREETS OF PATERSON.

SO WHEN WE GOT HOME--
HE TOOK ME HOME

AND I SAT OUTSIDE MY HOUSE
WITH HIM IN THE CAR

AND ASKED HIM WHAT IS HE
TRYING TO DO.

SAYS, "WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO
IS SQUEEZE PICTURES

"INTO LITTLE LINES.

"I'M TRYING TO TAKE A PICTURE

AND SQUEEZE IT INTO
LITTLE NARROW LINES."

I REMEMBER HIM USING
THE WORD "SQUEEZE."

SQUEEZING A PICTURE
INTO A FEW WORDS.

HE TALKED A LITTLE ABOUT
HIS SENSE OF RELATIVE MEASURE

AND ABOUT WHAT HE WAS
INTERESTED IN

AND MEASURING
THE AMERICAN LANGUAGE,

BUT MORE OF
A PRACTICAL WAY

SO THAT A PHRASE LIKE
"I'LL KICK YUH EYE"

HOW DO YOU--YOU CAN'T
FIGURE IT OUT

BY THE OLD-FASHIONED WAY.

YOU JUST HAVE TO LISTEN TO
WHAT'S AROUND YOU AND USE THAT.

AND THEN I REMEMBER ONE TIME
I WENT OVER

TO HIS HOUSE--HE HAD A DATE

WITH THE RUTHERFORD
POETRY SOCIETY,

OR THE FAIR LAWN POETRY
SOCIETY.

FAIR LAWN IS A LITTLE SUBURBAN
TOWN RIGHT OUTSIDE OF PATERSON,

AND THERE WAS SOME KIND OF
LITERARY SOCIETY,

AND THEY INVITED HIM OVER.

YOU KNOW, HARDLY ANYBODY
INVITED HIM ANYWHERE,

SO, IT WAS A BIG HONOR
FOR THE GUY.

TO GO LOCALLY--
THIS IS 1950, SAY--

TO GO LOCALLY TO SOME OLD LADY'S
POETRY SOCIETY IN THE SUBURBS...

SO HE INVITED ME TO COME ALONG.

I FORGOT WHAT THE WHOLE THING
WAS GOING ON.

IT WAS JUST SORT OF
TALK AND TEA.

BUT I REMEMBER I SAID, "WHAT DO
YOU THINK ABOUT T.S. ELIOT?"

HE SAID, "THAT BASTARD."

I SAID, "WELL, WHAT HAVE YOU
GOT AGAINST HIM?"

HE SAID, "WELL, ONCE WE MET."

AND HE SAID, "HE WAS A SNOB.
I FELT HE INSULTED ME."

HE SAID ELIOT SAID,
"OH, DR. WILLIAMS.

"OH, CHARMING TO MEET YOU.

"I JUST REALLY DO APPRECIATE
YOUR CHARACTERS.

I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE
MORE OF THEM."

AND WILLIAMS IMITATED ELIOT
SAYING THAT.

AND HE SAID, "THAT BASTARD.
'CHARACTERS'--HE WAS RUNNING

"THAT ENGLISH TRIP ON ME,

YOU KNOW, LIKE THE 'CHARACTER OF
THE HAPPY WARRIOR.'"

THE CHARACTER IS A POETIC FORM
OR A LITERARY FORM

OF THE 18th CENTURY, IS IT,

WHERE YOU--I DON'T KNOW QUITE
WHAT IT IS, ACTUALLY.

IT'S A--

MAN: COMES FROM THEOPHRASTUS.

GINSBERG: UH-HUH.
SO THAT'S A CLASSIC,

AND THEN TAKEN OVER INTO
JACOBEAN LITERATURE

OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT
OR 18th-CENTURY LITERATURE

IN WHICH YOU DO A PORTRAIT
OF SOMEONE OF SOME KIND

IN A VERY FORMAL THING,

MAYBE BY 18th CENTURY
OR 17th CENTURY,

AROUND A COUPLET
OR SOMETHING.

OR POPE HAS DONE IT,
OR DRYDEN.

WHO WROTE THE "CHARACTER
OF THE HAPPY WARRIOR"?

IT'S A FAMOUS POEM.

WOMAN: I THOUGHT THAT WAS
FROM WORDSWORTH.

GINSBERG: COULD BE.

SO ELIOT SAID TO WILLIAMS,

OH, I REALLY LIKE THE
BARE-HEADED, PROLETARIAN WOMAN.

SHE TAKES OFF HER SHOE,
LOOKS INSIDE INTO THE NAIL

TO FIND THE NAIL THAT HAS BEEN
HURTING HER.

OR THE WOMAN ON THE STREET
CORNER EATING THE PLUMS.

THEY TASTE GOOD TO HER,
THEY TASTE GOOD TO HER,
THEY TASTE GOOD TO--

SO ELIOT SAID, "I LIKE YOUR
CHARACTERS.

LET'S HAVE MORE OF THEM."

AND WILLIAMS--HE GOT MAD
AND SAID, "THAT BASTARD,

"HE DIDN'T GIVE ME CREDIT
FOR WRITING AN AMERICAN.

"HE STILL WANTED TO PUT IT
INTO AN ENGLISH CONTEXT.

"HE STILL WANTED TO INTERPRET
WHAT I WAS DOING

AS SOME KIND OF ENGLISH
HISTORICAL REPEAT."

WELL, IT WAS AMAZING.

HE REALLY WAS MAD AT ELIOT.

AND I REMEMBER HIM SAYING
THAT HE WAS SO SMART.

ELIOT WAS SUCH A GREAT POET

THAT HE'D SET
ENGLISH POETRY BACK--

AMERICAN POETRY BACK 25 YEARS,

WHICH IS, I THINK, SOMETHING
HE'S WRITTEN DOWN ELSEWHERE.

WE TALKED A LITTLE--
ONE TIME WENT OVER,

HE HAD A FRIEND, KITTY HOAGLAND,
WHOSE HUSBAND WAS AN EDITOR

OF THE "NEW YORK HERALD
TRIBUNE,"

A NEWSPAPER AT THAT TIME.

PERHAPS MIGHT HAVE HAD
AN AFFAIR WITH KITTY HOAGLAND.

SHE LIVED DOWN THE BLOCK
FROM HIM,

A FEW BLOCKS AWAY ON RUTHERFORD.

AND ONE SUNDAY WE WENT OVER
TO KITTY HOAGLAND'S HOUSE.

SHE'S STILL ALIVE, I THINK.

HOSTS, UH...PARTIES,

WILLIAMS' MEMORIAL SITUATIONS,

TAKES PART IN
THE CELEBRATIONS

OF WILLIAMS IN RUTHERFORD,
I THINK,

OR IS PART OF THAT PEOPLE WHO
REMEMBER WILLIAMS THERE.

AND WE GOT HIM TALKING
ABOUT DYLAN THOMAS,

WHO JUST DIED.

AND I SAID,
"WHAT IS HE TO HIM?"

KNOW THAT WILLIAMS WAS NOT UP
DYLAN THOMAS' ALLEY.

THEY WERE TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

HE SAID, "WELL, HE WAS A POET,

"AND BECAUSE HE WAS A POET,
HE WAS AN HONORABLE MAN.

"EVERYBODY WHO'S A POET MUST BE,

ANYBODY WHO HAS THAT AMBITION
TO WORKING LANGUAGE."

EVEN IF HIS POETRY IS OF
ANOTHER KIND,

STILL HE HAS--HE CERTAINLY
WAS A POET.

HE WAS PICKING UP ON
DYLAN THOMAS

FROM THE ROMANTIC POET PART,

WHICH WAS KIND OF INTERESTING

FOR WILLIAMS TO--THE DOCTOR

WHO CAME ON AS IF HE WAS
JUST A DOCTOR,

AT THAT MOMENT, ANYWAY,
AT THAT YEAR,

TO GENUFLECT TO DYLAN THOMAS

JUST FOR THE IDEALISTIC NOTION
OF HIM BEING A POET.

GERTRUDE STEIN
I ASKED HIM ABOUT.

SAID SHE HAD ONE
VERY SIMPLE IDEA

WHICH SHE DID OVER
AND OVER AGAIN,

BUT IT WAS A REAL THING--

ONE REAL, SIMPLE IDEA WHICH
SHE WORKED WITH

IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.

UM...POUND?

HE HAS A MYSTICAL EAR
HE SAID OF EZRA POUND.

NEVER FORGET THAT.

"POUND HAS A MYSTICAL EAR."

MAN: MELVILLE? DID HE--

GINSBERG: NO, WE NEVER TALKED
ABOUT MELVILLE.

HEMINGWAY, I FORGOT.
HE SAID SOMETHING ABOUT HIM.

HE WAS TALKING ABOUT
PEOPLE HE KNEW.

MAYAKOVSKY HE MET.

HE SAID IN THE TWENTIES

THE GREAT RUSSIAN POET
MAYAKOVSKY HAD COME TO NEW YORK.

AND WILLIAMS HAD GONE INTO
GREENWICH VILLAGE TO HEAR HIM,

SOME LITTLE HALL WHERE
MAYAKOVSKY HAD READ

AND POSSIBLY NOT
FOR MANY PEOPLE,

YOU KNOW, MAYBE 50 PEOPLE OR SO,
20 PEOPLE.

AND THEN AFTER, WILLIAMS WAS
INTRODUCED TO MAYAKOVSKY.

WILLIAMS ALWAYS REMEMBERED
WHAT HE SAID TO MAYAKOVSKY.

MAYAKOVSKY ASKED HIM,
"WHAT DID YOU THINK?"

IN RUSSIAN, AND THE
INTERPRETER SAID,

"WHAT DID YOU THINK
OF THE READING?"

'CAUSE MAYAKOVSKY HAD ORATED
AND MADE A BIG SOUND.

AND WILLIAMS SAID--POINTED
TO THE TABLE,

"YOU LAID AN EGG."

[LAUGHTER]

IN ENGLISH, IT MEANS...

IN ENGLISH, IT MEANS
YOUR LOUSY PERFORMANCE

OR OTHER--BECAUSE OF
THE NATURE OF THE IMAGE

WHAT WILLIAMS REALLY MEANT WAS
HE PUT SOMETHING SOLID

ON THE TABLE.

HE LAID AN EGG,

BUT IT'S SOMETHING
THAT WOULD HATCH.

BUT MAINLY WHAT WILLIAMS
EXPLAINED TO ME--

I SAID, "WHY WAS THAT FUNNY?"

HE SAID, "BECAUSE WHAT IT
MEANT ONE WAY.

"BUT THE OTHER WAY, WHAT I
REALLY MEANT QUITE LITERALLY

"BEING TRANSLATED,
TRANSLATED LITERALLY,

HE PUT SOMETHING SOLID
ON THE TABLE."

THAT'S REALLY PURE
WILLIAMS' HUMOR.

I GET APPRECIATION
OF LANGUAGE

AND TURNING IT UPSIDE-DOWN
AND CLEANING IT OUT

AND THEN USING IT IN
AN UNUSUAL WAY,

BUT REAL, USING VERNACULAR
IN AN UNUSUAL WAY.

MAN: CAN WE TALK ABOUT HIS
POETICS JUST FOR A LITTLE WHILE?

THERE'S SO MUCH TO USE ON
"THE RED WHEELBARROW."

I WAS JUST READING THE OTHER DAY
CID CORMAN SAYING

OF GOING TO COLLEGE AND HAVING
THAT POEM PRESENTED TO HIM

AS A EXAMPLE OF A FRAUD.

GINSBERG: YEAH.
OF A FRAUDULENT POEM.

MAN: A FRAUDULENT POEM.
AND TO--

GINSBERG: YEAH, IT WAS
FOR A LONG WHILE, I REMEMBER.

MY FATHER USED TO SAY THAT.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

IT WAS A FAVORITE
FRAUDULENT POEM

OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HATED
MODERN POETRY.

UM, SO--

MAN: AND IT'S--
WELL, AND IT'S STILL--

I MEAN, IT'S STILL IN A VERY
SUCCINCT WAY,

THERE'S STILL--THAT PROBLEM
STILL EXISTS.

GINSBERG: WELL, ONE INTERESTING
THING ABOUT IT,

WE WERE JUST TODAY WORKING
WITH A GROUP OF DEAF POETS,

TRYING TO TRANSLATE THAT
INTO DEAF SIGN LANGUAGE--

SIGN LANGUAGE FOR THE DEAF.

AND ALTHOUGH SOME SIMPLER POEMS
LIKE LANGSTON HUGHES

LIKE, "LIFE WITHOUT LOVE
IS LIKE A BROKEN WING BIRD.

LIFE WITHOUT HOPE OR LOVE
IS LIKE A FROZEN FIELD."

THOSE ARE RELATIVELY EASY
TO TRANSLATE.

BUT WHEN IT CAME TO TRANSLATE
THE SUBTLE, PICTORIAL, VISUAL...

DETAIL OF WHEELBARROW,
"A RED WHEELBARROW

GLAZED WITH RAIN WATER,"

THERE'S AN EXTREMELY
SUBTLE NOTICING

AS A PICTURE THING.

THERE'S NOTHING FRAUDULENT
ABOUT THE DELICACY OF THAT.

"THE RED WHEELBARROW
GLAZED WITH RAINWATER."

BECAUSE THEN, IF YOU'RE
TRYING TO TRANSLATE IT
INTO SIGN LANGUAGE,

OR ANY OTHER LANGUAGE,

YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT,
"IS IT STILL RAINING?"

"HAS IT BEEN RAINING
AND IS IT ICED OVER NOW?"

OH, "IS IT A GLAZE BECAUSE
THE THING IS STILL WET

"AND SHIMMERING WITH WATER

OR IS IT GLAZED BECAUSE
IT'S COLD OUT?"

AND YOU REALLY--
YOU BEGIN TO REALIZE

HOW COMPLICATED THAT IS.

IT SURE GIVES YOU
A GREAT PICTURE--

"A RED WHEELBARROW GLAZED
WITH RAIN WATER."

IT'S A VERY VIVID PICTURE
OF THE SHINE,

THE GLAZE,

BUT TO TRY AND TRANSLATE IT
INTO SIGN LANGUAGE

PRESENTED THE PROBLEM THAT,
FIRST OF ALL,

THE GUY TRANSLATED IT AS
"WET WITH RAIN WATER,"

AS IF THE RAIN IS RUNNING ON IT.

TO DO THE GLAZE, YOU'D HAVE TO
TAKE A LITTLE MORE TROUBLE

AND EXPLAIN ALL
THE GLAZED PARTS,

NOT ONLY WET BUT GLAZED,
THE SHINE.

SO, YOU REALIZE IN THAT
SIMPLE LITTLE THING,

HARDLY FAKE AT ALL,

HE BUILT INTO IT.

HE'S GOT A VERY SUBTLE
PIECE OF OPTICAL INFORMATION.

MAN: MM-HMM.

AND ALSO THE FACT THAT NO ONE
IS LET OFF THE HOOK

BY THE POETIC DEVICE
OF COMPARING IT

TO SOMETHING ELSE.

IT'S THE THING ITSELF.

GINSBERG: THAT ASPECT OF
WILLIAMS REMINDS ME

OF A GREAT STATEMENT BY
A TIBETAN LAMA

THAT I LEARN A LOT FROM

WHO SAID, "THINGS ARE SYMBOLS
OF THEMSELVES."

THINGS ARE SYMBOLS
OF THEMSELVES.

WHICH IS BASICALLY THE IDEA
OF "NO IDEA IN THINGS" ALSO--

WILLIAMS' SLOGAN, "NO IDEA
BUT IN THINGS."

WHY? BECAUSE THINGS ARE
SYMBOLS OF THEMSELVES.

THE MEDITATIVE ZEN
OR TIBETAN TRADITION

IS THAT THROUGH
MEDITATION PRACTICE,

ONE FOCUSES ONE'S ATTENTION
ON THE ACTUAL

FEAR TO THE WORLD, FINALLY,
SINGLE-MINDEDLY.

AND SO, BECAUSE OF UNOBSTRUCTED
OBSERVATION,

UNOBSTRUCTED VIEW, UNOBSTRUCTED
DIRECT CONTACT,

OR AS ZUKOVSKY SAYS, "SIGHT IS
WHERE THE VISION--"

OR "SIGHT IS WHERE
THE EYE HITS,"

BECAUSE VIEW IS UNOBSTRUCTED
BY THOUGHT,

SCREAMS INTERPOSING.

DETAILS OF ..., PRONGS,

OF...VEGETABLE MATTER
BECOME MORE LUMINOUS.

THE RED BECOMES REDDER

AND YELLOW BECOMES YELLOWER,

'CAUSE NOBODY TRIED TO
INTERPRET ANYTHING OUT OF THEM.

THEY JUST BECOME THEMSELVES--

PURE RED AND PURE ORANGE
AND YELLOW.

SO THINGS ARE SYMBOLS
OF THEMSELVES

WHEN THERE'S AN UNOBSTRUCTED
OBSERVATION,

WHEN YOU'RE NOT
TRYING TO INTERPRET.

MAN: SO BY SAYING THAT "A"
EQUALS "A,"

AS OPPOSED TO "A" EQUALS "B,"

WHICH IS THE WESTERN POETIC.

GINSBERG: YOU DON'T DISTRACT
THE MIND

FROM LOOKING AT THE OBJECT
YOU'RE DESCRIBING.

MAN: MM-HMM.

GINSBERG: YOU DON'T TRY
AND CUT IT UP.

OR AS BURROUGHS SAID,
"THE MOST UNHAPPY THING

"IS TO BE MAKING LOVE
TO ONE PERSON

AND THINKING OF ANOTHER."

SO, TO BE VERY...

IN A SENSE, IT'S A VERY
UNHAPPY THING

TO BE--"MY LOVE IS LIKE
A RED, RED ROSE."

BE A FUNNY CONTRADICTION.

MAN: DOES ANYBODY WANT TO
ASK ANYTHING

WHILE WE'RE GOING ON HERE?

WOMAN: I SEE "SO MUCH DEPENDS"
IN "RED WHEELBARROW"

AS BEING VERY REGULAR,

IN TERMS OF THE BEATS
IN THE LINE.

I MEAN, FOR EXAMPLE--

GINSBERG: I'M NOT SURE THAT
I'VE GOT IT WRITTEN DOWN

EXACTLY AS IT IS.

WOMAN: I THINK YOU DO.
BUT IT'S PRETTY MUCH

2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1,
ALL THE WAY DOWN,

JUST AS THOUGH HE HAD
REALLY CONTRIVED IT,

IF HE HAD TRIED
2, 1, 2.

GINSBERG: I DON'T KNOW WHERE
THE "THE" BELONGS,

BESIDE THE WHITE--

WOMAN: WELL, IF YOU JUST TAKE
THE HEAVY ACCENTS.

"SO MUCH." YOU HAVE 2 THERE.
"DEPEND" IS 1,

"ON" AND "RED."

I'M TRY...

GINSBERG: WELL, I HEAR
DIFFERENT.

I DON'T FOLLOW THE ACCENT.

I FOLLOW THE COUNT
OF SYLLABLES.

"SO MUCH DEPENDS."

THOSE EQUAL.

"UPON A RED"--
DAT DAT DAT DAT.

1, 2, 3, 4.

"WHEELBARROW."
"SO MUCH DEPENDS..."

1, 2, 3, 4.

1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2,
1, 2, 3, 4,

1, 2.

"SO MUCH DEPENDS."

WOMAN: YOU DO HEAR THE
REGULARITY, THOUGH.

GINSBERG: WELL, REGULARITY
OR VARIATIONS FROM REGULARITY,

ONE OR THE OTHER.
- YEAH.

THEN THE 3--"GLAZED WITH RAIN."

WOMAN: YES.

GINSBERG: "SO MUCH DEPENDS
UPON THE RED WHEELBARROW."

THEN HE COMPROMISES--

"GLAZED WITH RAIN."

SO THERE'S 3.

SO YOU HAVE 2, 2, 2,

2, 2, 4, 2

AND A 2, 2, 4,

"WHEELBARROW"--3.

UPON A RED WHEELBARROW.

THEN IT'S REPEATED.
"GLAZED WITH RAIN."

"WHEELBARROW GLAZED WITH RAIN

WATER."

BACK TO THE 2.

"BESIDE THE WHITE--"

I DON'T KNOW--HOW'S IT--
"BESIDE THE WHITE?"

OR BESIDE THE?

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS
ORIGINALLY.

WOMAN: I SEE IT AS A MATTER
OF HOW YOU DO IT, SO...

IN TERMS OF YOUR OWN VOICE.

BUT IT SEEMS JUST AS REGULAR
TO ME AS--

GINSBERG: ONE THING THAT
HE DOES,

IN HIS LATER POEMS, WHICH ARE
BROKEN UP INTO TRIADIC LINES,

THE LINES COMING ACROSS
THE PAGE IN SERIES OF 3,

WHEN YOU HEAR HIM READ IT
ON HIS RECORDINGS,

WHICH ARE VERY BEAUTIFUL
RECORDINGS

THAT HE MADE WHEN HE WAS
VERY OLD

AND HAD HAD A STROKE AND HIS
VOICE IS UTTERLY SINCERE

AND FULL OF INTERESTING
EMOTIONAL TONES,

VARIATIONS OF PITCH,

HIGH TONES
AND DELICATE TONES,

HE DOESN'T FOLLOW
THE LINE BREAKS.

HE JUST READS IT AS IF
IT IS PROSE.

SO HE'S NOT PAYING THAT MUCH
OF ATTENTION IN THAT SENSE.

I THINK HE'S INTERESTED
IN ARRANGING IT ON THE PAGE

IN SOME KIND OF MINDFUL WAY
TO INDICATE

PARTS OF THOUGHTS
BALANCED TOGETHER,

PARTS OF PHRASING BALANCED
TOGETHER,

PIECES OF IDEAS SET UP
AND BALANCED TOGETHER,

PIVOTING MAYBE ON
"AND" OR "OR."

YOU KNOW, HE MIGHT OCCASIONALLY
HAVE JUST A--

IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 3-LINE
TRIADIC,

HE MIGHT HAVE

"OR A SEVILLE," IN WHICH
THE OTHER TWO PARTS BALANCE.

A FEW TIMES, HE MIGHT HAVE
A SINGLE WORD.

YEAH?

MAN: DO YOU THINK HE WAS NEVER
SATISFIED WITH THE...?

THAT HE HAD FOUND THE PASSION
HE WAS LOOKING FOR

UNTIL PERHAPS "ASPHODEL"?

HE WAS DISSATISFIED WITH
THE PRESIDENT

OF EVERYTHING, RIGHT?

GINSBERG: YEAH. WELL, HIS
DISSATISFACTION WAS...

HE FEARED IT WOULD OPEN UP
THE OLD ...

"This project is supported by a Digitizing Hidden Collections grant from the Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR). The grant program is made possible by funding from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation."

Title supplied by cataloger