ds_0027_beersswayze_cap_01.mp4

ds_0027_beersswayze_cap_01.mp4

Interviews

Beers, Todd

Beers, Todd Interviews

Swayze, Eddie Interviews

American Sign Language literature

American poetry 20th century

Deaf Poetry

Deaf, Writings of the, American

ASL poetry

Part of a collection of interviews and other recordings made for a film on ASL poetry, "The Heart of the Hydrogen Jukebox." The first part of this DVD shows painter and poet Todd Beers discussing his work teaching writing at the Rochester Institute of Technology and at Writers & Books in Rochester, New York. Beers also talks about how the Painted Rope series of ASL poetry readings got its start. The second part shows Deaf artist and poet Eddie Swayze discussing his poetry.

National Technical Institute for the Deaf

Rochester Institute of Technology - RIT Libraries - RIT Archive Collections

Swayze, Eddie,

Lerner, Miriam Nathan

2007

2018

moving image

mp4

DVD

65 minutes

American Sign Language

English

RITDSA.0027

Sculptures in the Air: An Accessible Online Video Repository of the American Sign Language (ASL) Poetry and Literature Collections

Miriam and Kenneth Lerner ASL Poetry Collection

2018-2019 CLIR Grant-ASL Poetry and Literature

https://albert.rit.…

https://archivesspa…

New York - Rochester

Henrietta Campus

RIT Libraries makes materials from its collections available for educational and research purposes pursuant to U.S. Copyright Law. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. It is your responsibility to obtain permission from the copyright holder to publish or reproduce images in print or electronic form.

CC BY-NC-ND: Attribution NonCommercial NoDerivatives 4.0 International

INTERVIEWER: OK.
WHAT'S YOUR NAME, SIR?

MY NAME IS TODD BEERS.

INTERVIEWER: ALL RIGHT.
AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING RIGHT

NOW IN ROCHESTER?

WHAT'S YOUR JOB RIGHT NOW?

I'M PAINTING PAINTINGS
AND THEN WRITING AND DOING

A LITTLE TEACHING.

INTERVIEWER: OK,
AND WHEN DID YOU--

HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN
WHAT YOU WOULD CALL A POET?

LIKE, WHEN DID YOU START
TO SAY, "I'M

A POET," BLAH, BLAH, BLAH,
"THAT'S WHAT I AM."

UM...

I THINK PEOPLE STARTED
REFERRING TO ME AS A POET

IN MAYBE '85, '84,

SOMETHING LIKE
THAT, THE EIGHTIES.

INTERVIEWER: OK. AND
WERE YOU FROM ROCHESTER?

DID YOU START OUT HERE?

- YES.
- YOU DID?

YOU'RE FROM
ROCHESTER ORIGINALLY?

I'M FROM WAYNE COUNTY.

INTERVIEWER:
ALL RIGHT, ALL RIGHT.

A LOT OF SNOW
IN WAYNE COUNTY.

PARDON?

INTERVIEWER: A LOT OF
SNOW IN WAYNE COUNTY.

THERE'S A LOT SNOW
IN WAYNE COUNTY.

INTERVIEWER: HOW DID
YOU MEET JIM COHN?

HOW DID YOU GUYS
START OUT TOGETHER?

UM, I GUESS I MET HIM AT
A POETRY READING,

AND, UM...

JESUS. JIM COHN.

WELL, HE HAD
"ACTION MAGAZINE."

INTERVIEWER: MM-HMM.

I WAS AFFILIATED
WITH WRITERS & BOOKS.

HE WAS AFFILIATED WITH IT,

AND HE, UM--I GUESS
HE'S MY PUBLISHER.

HEH. I CAN THINK OF
HIM AS MY PUBLISHER.

HE PUBLISHED SOME
LITTLE POEMS OF MINE,

AND IT GAVE ME A LOT OF--

HE TOOK ME SERIOUSLY,
YOU KNOW, AS A POET,

AND THAT REALLY DIDN'T
QUITE HAPPEN BEFORE

THAT TIME.

SO I GUESS I, UM--HE REALLY
OPENED ME UP A LOT AND GAVE

ME HOPE, YOU KNOW, LIKE HE
DID A LOT OF PEOPLE BACK

THEN, I THINK.

HE TOOK HIS POETRY--

POETRY IN GENERAL
VERY SERIOUSLY.

I THINK I REMEMBER
JIM SAYING--

UM, I LOVE THIS QUOTE--

"POETRY HAS BEEN MY
MOST FAITHFUL BRIDE."

AND AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH?

[INTERVIEWER LAUGHING]

IT'S COOL.

- THAT WAS HIS QUOTE?
- THAT WAS HIS QUOTE.

I REMEMBER THAT, YEAH.

INTERVIEWER: HOW DID YOU
GUYS COME TO CREATE

THE PAINTED ROPE SERIES,

AND WHY WAS IT CALLED THAT?

A FEW OF US DID SOMETHING
AT THE OLD SNAKE SISTERS

ON SOUTH AVENUE,
THE 12 1/2 CENT POETRY SERIES,

AND AT THAT TIME, THERE
WASN'T ALL THESE

OPEN MIKES, YOU KNOW.

I THINK THERE WAS SOMETHING
AT WRITERS & BOOKS,

BUT IF YOU WENT
OUTSIDE OF WRITERS & BOOKS,

THERE WAS--
WE WERE IT, YOU KNOW?

THERE WAS, LIKE,
10 OR 12 OF US,

AND I THINK MAYBE WE ASKED
HIM TO READ THERE OR HE

FOUND OUT ABOUT IT,

AND THEN WE DECIDED JUST
TO DO SOMETHING TOGETHER,

AND I WAS DOING
THESE CONSTRUCTIONS

IN THE BASEMENT,

AND I WAS FRAMING WHATEVER
I WAS DOING WITH ROPE,

AND I WAS PAINTING IT.

HEH.

LIKE, 4:00 IN THE
MORNING, THERE'S TODD

ON HIS KNEES IN THE
BASEMENT, PAINTING THESE

STRINGS AND ROPES, LIKE,
PURPLE WITH MY HANDS,

YOU KNOW,
AND THEN WE WERE TALKING--

I JUST SPILLED MY COFFEE--

UM, WE WERE TALKING.

SAID, "WHAT COULD BE A NAME
FOR THE POETRY READING?"

AND I SAID,
"HOW ABOUT PAINTED ROPE?"

I LIKED THE ALLITERATION,
THE "P," AND HE SAID, "OK."

HE WAS PRETTY EASY TO
WORK WITH, YOU KNOW,

AND HE LET THINGS
JUST KIND OF HAPPEN.

INTERVIEWER: WHAT WAS
THE ORIGINAL INTENTION

OF THE SERIES?

SON OF A BITCH!

SORRY ABOUT THAT.

HEH. PARDON?

INTERVIEWER: WHAT WAS
THE ORIGINAL INTENTION

OF CREATING THIS SERIES?

PARTICULAR KINDS
OF WRITERS OR--

WELL, HE WAS
INVOLVED WITH NTID,

AND, UM...

SO HE INCORPORATED SOME
DEAF POETRY, WHICH I WASN'T

AWARE OF AT THE TIME,

SO WE--WE PUT THE TWO
TOGETHER AND CREATED

SOMETHING THAT I
NEVER SAW BEFORE,

AND IT WAS A BIG
INFLUENCE ON MY WORK.

BEING EXPOSED TO
THE DEAF POETS.

[SIGHS]

INTERVIEWER: HEH HEH.

HOW DID YOU--

SO I WANT TO ASK YOU
A COUPLE OF THINGS--

I'M GONNA ASK YOU IN A
MINUTE ABOUT THE INFLUENCES

ON YOUR WORK,

BUT FIRST OF ALL, YOU HAD
NEVER BEEN EXPOSED TO

SIGN LANGUAGE OR DEAF
PEOPLE BEFORE THIS TIME?

- NOT AT ALL.
- NOT ALL?

- NOT AT ALL.
- OK. SO THIS WAS KIND OF YOUR--

I DON'T EVEN THINK I SAW
SIGN LANGUAGE AT THAT

TIME, YOU KNOW?

MAYBE WITH JIM TALKING
TO SOMEBODY AND MOVING

HIS HANDS,

AND IT WAS LIKE, "WHAT
THE HELL IS HE DOING?"

YOU KNOW, IT WAS A TOTALLY
DIFFERENT LANGUAGE FOR ME,

BUT I LOVED THE DANCE OF
IT ALL, YOU KNOW?

THERE SEEMED TO BE
A DANCE QUALITY TO IT.

INTERVIEWER: MM-HMM.

DID YOU--

BEFORE YOU SAW DEAF PEOPLE
DOING THE POETRY, DID YOU

HAVE AN INTERPRETER
WORK WITH YOU?

WAS YOUR FIRST EXPERIENCE
WITH THE WHOLE TRANSLATION

THING WORKING WITH
AN INTERPRETER,

OR DID YOU SEE SOME
DEAF POETRY STUFF?

YEAH, I THINK I WAS EXPOSED
TO MAYBE PETER AND KENNY

DOING SOME STUFF TOGETHER.

INTERVIEWER: AND YOU HAD
MENTIONED A COUPLE MINUTES--

AND I THOUGHT IT WAS COOL
THAT, LIKE, I COULD--

LIKE, KENNY--IT WAS COOL
THAT KENNY WAS THERE FOR ME

AS A HEARING PERSON,
SO IT KIND OF--

YOU KNOW, IT WAS KIND OF--

I ENJOYED--YOU KNOW, IT
KIND OF FLIPPED THE SWITCH

ON THE WHOLE THING.

SO I COULD BE--

IT WAS LIKE I WAS THE
ONE THAT COULDN'T HEAR

IN A WAY, YOU KNOW,

AND IN A WAY, I WASN'T--

I WAS THE ONE THAT
COULDN'T HEAR.

SO THAT WAS NICE OF KENNY.

HEH HEH.

INTERVIEWER: YOU KNOW,
HE DID IT JUST FOR YOU.

HA HA HA!

I THOUGHT SO.

I THOUGHT HE DID
THAT FOR ME,

AND HE DID.

INTERVIEWER: UM, TALK
A LITTLE BIT, IF YOU DON'T

MIND, ABOUT THE WHOLE
PROCESS OF WATCHING

INTERPRETERS ONSTAGE
AND THEN WORKING

WITH INTERPRETERS YOURSELF.

UM...

WELL, WORKING WITH THEM
MADE ME REALLY THINK

ABOUT WHAT I WAS
DOING AND WHAT I--

MAYBE NOT MY INTENT BECAUSE
I THINK A POEM IS SMARTER

THAN THE POET,

SO IT MADE ME REALIZE WHAT
THE POEM WAS TRYING TO

SAY TO ME,

AND I NEVER REALLY TOOK
IT TO THAT LEVEL BEFORE.

SO IT WAS AN EDUCATION
FOR ME, I THINK, WORKING

WITH AN INTERPRETER,

AND IT WAS YOU I
WORKED WITH,

AND YOU WOULD ASK ME
A QUESTION, AND MAYBE

AN ANGLE THAT I NEVER
EVEN THOUGHT OF BEFORE

BECAUSE MY INTENT WAS
TO CREATE AN IMAGE,

AND I MIGHT
LEAVE IT AT THAT,

BUT THEN THE IMAGE WOULD
OBVIOUSLY SYMBOLIZE

SOMETHING MAYBE THAT I
DIDN'T UNDERSTAND OR WAS

WHAT WAS THE IMAGE SAYING
OR WHAT WAS THE FRICTION

BETWEEN THESE TWO
IMAGES PERHAPS?

SO IT MADE ME GO DEEPER
WITH MY OWN WORK, I THINK,

OR WITH THE MAGIC OF ART.

IT MADE ME SEE IT
PERHAPS BETTER I THINK.

OH, I KNOW.

I KNOW THAT,

AND THEN WATCHING
THE WORK WAS--

YOU KNOW,
THE WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS LINE

"IN THINGS, NOT IN IDEAS,"
SHOW, DON'T TELL,

AND THAT'S WHERE HEARING
POETS MISS THE BOAT.

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT
ABOUT THE THOUGHT.

IT'S ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE,
I THINK, FOR ME AT LEAST,

SO WHEN A POEM MOVES ME,
I HAVE AN EXPERIENCE WITH IT.

A THOUGHT DOESN'T
REALLY MOVE ME SO MUCH,

BUT IF I CAN SEE IT OR HEAR
IT OR IT EVOKES SOME OF MY

SENSES, THEN THERE'S
AN EXPERIENCE THERE,

AND THE DEAF POET
IN A WAY HAS AN ADVANTAGE

BECAUSE YOU HAVE
TO GO TO THE IMAGE.

IT'S KIND OF LIKE--

I WORKED WITH KIDS
IN THE HOSPITAL.

SOME OF THEM WERE
CHRONICALLY ILL.

SOME OF THEM
WERE GONNA DIE.

WE DIDN'T HAVE TO DEAL
WITH ALL THAT BULLSHIT

IN BETWEEN.

THEY WERE ALREADY THERE,

SO WE WERE THERE.

WE GOT IT ALREADY,
YOU KNOW?

I DIDN'T HAVE TO TEACH
THEM ABOUT THINGS,

AND A DEAF POET, THEY'RE
ALREADY THERE, AS WELL,

BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO
GO TO THE IMAGE.

THEY HAVE TO KNOW
WHAT THEY'RE SAYING.

THERE'S NO--

I MEAN, THERE CAN BE AN
AMBIGUITY WHERE THERE'S TWO

THINGS BEING SAID OR YOU
CAN TAKE THINGS ON THIS

LEVEL OR ON THIS LEVEL,

BUT THEY HAVE TO GO
TO THE IMAGE.

THEY HAVE TO KNOW WHAT
THEY'RE DOING IN A WAY.

IT'S A LOT MORE
THAN AN IDEA.

IT'S A HECK OF A LOT
MORE THAN AN IDEA,

AND I WOULDN'T LISTEN TO
A POET SPEAKING.

I WOULD ALWAYS LOOK AT THE
INTERPRETER WHEN I WAS

IN THE AUDIENCE.

IT ALLOWED ME TO SEE
THE POEM BETTER,

AND IT WAS ALMOST--
I COULD HEAR THE POEM,

BUT THEY INTERPRETED IT
FOR ME IN A WAY AND GAVE IT

MORE SUBSTANCE,

AND THE POEM DANCED THROUGH
THE INTERPRETER, WHICH WAS

AN EXPERIENCE FOR ME.

THEY WERE VERY,
VERY MOVING FOR ME.

INTERVIEWER: FROM
AN INTERPRETER'S POINT

OF VIEW, ONE INTERESTING
THING THAT WE WENT THROUGH

WAS THAT WHEN WE WORKED
WITH YOU GUYS IT WASN'T

JUST THIS CEREBRAL KIND
OF ART AND TRANSLATING

AND PUTTING IT OUT
IN THIS LANGUAGE.

IT WAS LIKE PUTTING ON YOUR
POETRY LIKE IT WAS CLOTHES

BECAUSE WE HAD
TO EMBODY IT,

AND SO SOMETIMES, I
HAD EXPERIENCES WHERE I

WOULD INTERPRET
SOMEBODY'S STUFF,

AND I WOULDN'T FEEL THAT
I REALLY GOT IT.

YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T
REALLY GET--

I'M NOT THAT PERSON.

I KNOW HOW TO MAKE AN
IMAGE TO CONVEY TO

THE DEAF PEOPLE,

BUT I WOULDN'T
REALLY GET IT,

BUT I WOULD FEEL IT
BECAUSE I WORE IT.

- MMM.
- AND I KNOW THAT YOUR STUFF

WAS LIKE THAT FOR ME AND JIM'S
WAS A LOT LIKE THAT FOR ME,

BUT HIS STUFF WAS
SO MULTILAYERED.

IMAGES, IMAGES, IMAGES,

AND I WOULDN'T
ALWAYS UNDERSTAND.

HE LIKED TO WORK LIKE
SERGEI EISENSTEIN, YOU

KNOW, MONTAGE,
MONTAGE, MONTAGE,

AND THAT THE OVERALL THINGS
IS WHAT GETS YOU AFTER THIS

HUGE BOMBARDMENT OF STUFF,

SO I WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND
SOMETIMES WHY HE WOULD PUT

THESE THINGS ALL TOGETHER,

BUT I WOULD CONVEY IT
AND DO IT PRETTY--

I WOULD WORK MY ASS OFF AND
DO IT AS WELL AS I COULD,

PUT IT OUT THERE FOR THEM
TO FEEL WHAT THEY WOULD

FEEL FROM IT,

BUT I WOULD HAVE FELT
LIKE I WENT THROUGH

WORLD WAR III.

WHATEVER THE FEELING WAS
HE WAS TRYING MAKE,

BUT I DIDN'T NECESSARILY
GET THE POINT OF IT,

BUT THE FEELING OF IT WAS
COURSING THROUGH MY BODY

LIKE WEARING A CLOAK
AND THEN TAKING IT OFF.

THAT'S BEAUTIFUL.

INTERVIEWER: SO FROM OUR
POINT OF VIEW, I WORE

YOUR GREAT--

YOU ATE IT.

I MEAN, YOU--HOW BRAVE.

HOW BRAVE AN INTERPRETER IS,
AND TO HAVE MY POETRY WORN

BY SOMEONE IS--

WHAT AN HONOR THAT WAS FOR
ME, ESPECIALLY AS A YOUNG

POET OR EVEN JUST AS
A YOUNG MAN TO HAVE SOMEONE

TAKE MY ART THAT SERIOUSLY
AND TO EXPERIENCE IT,

AND I MUST SAY THAT
THE DEAF AUDIENCE TOOK TO MY

WORK MORE THAN
A HEARING AUDIENCE.

A HEARING AUDIENCE CAN
JUST BE THERE WITHOUT

BEING THERE.

THE DEAF AUDIENCE IS THERE.

IF THEY'RE
LOOKING, THEY GOT IT.

SO THEY--

THEY HAVE TO GO TO THE
DEEPER MEANING OF THE POEM.

THEY HAVE TO GO
TO THE HEART.

THEY CAN'T JUST KIND OF LET
IT GO IN ONE EAR AND OUT

THE OTHER, AS THEY
SAY, YOU KNOW?

SO THE WHOLE DEAF CULTURE
WITHOUT ME KNOWING--

I KNOW THIS IS "BORING."

THAT'S ABOUT ALL I KNOW,

BUT THEY REALLY INFLUENCED
ME A LOT AND PROBABLY

INFLUENCED ME AS A PAINTER,
AS WELL, YOU KNOW,

A BIT, I THINK.

IF I THINK ABOUT IT.

INTERVIEWER: HOW DID
THEY INFLUENCE--

HOW DID KNOWING THAT DEAF
PEOPLE WERE GETTING--

FIRST OF ALL, SO AFTER YOU WOULD
PERFORM, YOU WOULD HAVE

CONVERSATIONS WITH DEAF
PEOPLE ABOUT YOUR WORK?

YEAH, AND JUST HOW THEY REACTED,
I COULD REALLY TELL THAT

THEY WERE INTO THE WORK.

THEY GOT IT
THE WAY I GOT IT,

AND THEY LET
ME KNOW THAT--

THEY REASSURED ME THAT I GOT IT.

THEY REASSURED
ME THAT I WAS--

I WAS ACTUALLY DOING
SOMETHING, YOU KNOW,

AND THE ATTENTION,
THE ATTENTION TO THE ART.

IT WASN'T LIP SERVICE
HOW POETRY CAN BE

SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW?

IT WAS--THEY INTERNALLY
GOT IT, YOU KNOW?

BUT I WAS ALWAYS AFTER
THE IMAGE MYSELF,

AND I THINK A LOT OF
HEARING POETS LIKE

IDEAS, YOU KNOW?

GO BACK TO THAT LINE,

AND I DON'T
THINK THAT'S ART.

I DON'T THINK
THAT'S POETRY.

AND YEAH, THEY WOULD COME
UP AND TALK TO ME A BIT.

INTERVIEWER: DID YOU
FEEL THAT--YOU SAID IT

INFLUENCED YOUR ART WORK
AS WELL AS YOUR POETRY.

DID YOU INTENTIONALLY
BECOME MUCH MORE--

YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF IMAGES,
STRONGER IMAGES

IN YOUR POETRY

AND LEAVE MAYBE THE
VERBIAGE SIMPLE?

OR HOW DID IT HAVE
AN EFFECT ON YOU?

- ON THE POETRY?
- BOTH. THE POETRY.

OH. UM...

JUST I THINK IT'S
MOSTLY THE ATTENTION,

THE ATTENTION THEY GAVE TO
THE IMAGE AND, UM--

LET ME THINK ABOUT
IT FOR A MINUTE.

HOW DID IT?

I DON'T KNOW.

HOW DID IT?

HOW DID IT REALLY?

HOW DID IT REALLY,
REALLY DO IT?

I THINK BEING UNDERSTOOD.

YOU KNOW, I THINK
BEING UNDERSTOOD.

I WRITE--I THINK I WRITE
TO CONNECT, YOU KNOW, THAT

INTERNAL WORLD WITH
MY OUTER WORLD,

AND I REALLY
THINK IT ALLOWS--

THE ART ALLOWS ME TO FEEL
LIKE I'M ACTUALLY HERE

AND AS WHOLE
AS I COULD BE,

AND FOR THAT TO BE
APPRECIATED, FOR THAT TO BE

UNDERSTOOD IS
LOVE, IS LIFE.

SO, I MEAN, IT GOES
BEYOND THE ART.

I MEAN, WHAT'S THE
DIFFERENCE, THOUGH?

AND FOR ME TO BE THERE
OR HERE AND TO HAVE THEM

REALLY PAYING ATTENTION AND
APPRECIATING THAT I'M THERE

AS A PERSON, YOU KNOW...

IS, UH--IS A GIFT.

IS A GIFT,

AND WE'RE NOT
HERE THAT LONG,

AND I THINK DEAF PEOPLE
MIGHT BE FORCED TO

UNDERSTAND THAT BETTER
IN AN ABSTRACT WAY,

IN A ROUNDABOUT WAY,

AND IT'S MORE DIRECT.

IT'S MORE DIRECT.

THERE'S NO MANIPULATING.

WELL, THERE'S MANIPULATION.

I GUESS ART IS MANIPULATION
TO SOME EXTENT,

BUT THERE'S TR--
IT'S MANIPULATION,

BUT IT'S TRUTH,
YOU KNOW, I THINK.

SO IT'S NOT SO MUCH
INFLUENCED ME AS WHAT

DIRECTION TO GO BUT
INFLUENCED ME TO KEEP BEING

MYSELF AND, UM...

FOLLOW IT, YOU KNOW,

AND TO KEEP FOLLOWING IT,

AND IT'S THE ATTENTION,
IT'S THE INTENT.

IT'S THE
ATTENTION, WHICH IS--

THAT GIVES LIFE.

THE DETAIL, RIGHT?

EVERYTHING'S IN THE
DETAIL, EVEN GOD THEY SAY,

AND THEN THAT'S WHAT ART
IS ABOUT IS THE DETAIL,

THE SPECK.

HMM. LEONARD COHEN ABOUT
THAT SPECK OF DUST THAT YOU

GET TO SEE ONCE IN
A WHILE IN THE LIGHT.

IT'S ALL THERE, YOU KNOW?

AND THEY JUST REAFFIRMED
IT FOR ME, I THINK.

INTERVIEWER: THAT
SOUNDS LIKE A REALLY

GOOD CONNECTION.

IT SORT OF SOUNDS LIKE
ALMOST LIKE A SEMINAL

TIME FOR YOU...

NO DOUBT.

INTERVIEWER: TO COME INTO
THAT GROUP, AS WELL AS

A VERY ACTIVE HEARING POET
COMMUNITY THAT WAS HERE

IN ROCHESTER.

FOR A TOWN THIS SIZE,
THERE WAS SO MUCH GOING ON.

YOUR SERIES AND--

WAS THE PAINTED ROPE ONE
ALSO THE SAME ONE WHERE

THERE WERE, LIKE, 3 OR
4 A NIGHT AND THERE WERE

A WHOLE BUNCH OF FOLKS?

- RIGHT.
- SOMETIMES, THERE'D BE 3 OR 4,

AND THERE WERE TONS OF
US INTERPRETERS.

WE WERE WORKING
WITH SEVERAL.

IT WAS SOME
TIME, WASN'T IT?

IT WAS WILD.

THERE'S NOTHING LIKE
IT NOW, YOU KNOW?

EVERYTHING'S JUST GOTTEN
SPLIT AND, YOU KNOW--

I USED TO THINK, WELL, I'M
JUST REMINISCING ABOUT MY

OWN LIFE AND HOW
GREAT IT WAS,

BUT, I MEAN, IT WAS
FRICKING HAPPENING.

YOU KNOW, IT REALLY WAS,

AND WE TOOK IT SERIOUSLY,

AND WE MEANT IT,
YOU KNOW?

I MEAN, REALLY.

IT'S WHAT WE DID,

AND IT WAS AN EDUCATION,
AND THERE WERE--

YOU KNOW, WE BROUGHT PEOPLE
IN FROM OUT OF TOWN,

AND EVERYTHING
WAS INTERPRETED.

I'LL NEVER FORGET
JIM COHN INTERPRETING--

AND WE HAD MUSIC, TOO.

I REMEMBER JIM COHN
INTERPRETING A ROCK SONG ONCE.

I'D NEVER BEEN SO
FRIGHTENED IN MY LIFE.

I'D NEVER SEEN
ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

THE MUSIC WAS--

IT WAS HARD--SOME KIND
OF HARDCORE STUFF,

AND IT GOES BACK--

IT JUST GOES BACK TO
FEELING IT, HAVING TO FEEL

IT IN HERE BECAUSE OF HOW
JIM WAS INTERPRETING IT.

HE WAS
INTERPRETING IT LIKE--

I'D NEVER SEEN
ANYTHING LIKE IT.

IT JUST WENT RIGHT IN ME
WATCHING HIM, YOU KNOW?

FRIGHTENING.

IF IT'S FRIGHTENING,
IT'S FRIGHTENING.

IF IT'S LOVE, IT'S LOVE.

IT'S BITTERSWEET,
IT'S BITTERSWEET.

THERE'S NO DENYING IT
WHEN IT'S INTERPRETED.

JUST THE WORD INTERPRETED
IS INTERESTING TO

ME, YOU KNOW?

INTERPRETED.

EVERYTHING SHOULD BE
INTERPRETED, SHOULDN'T IT,

A LITTLE BIT OR NOT
AT ALL MAYBE,

OR NOT AT ALL,
BUT, NO, YES.

INTERPRET EVERYTHING.

INTERPRET NOTHING.
I DON'T KNOW.

INTERVIEWER: I MEAN, I WOULD
ALWAYS INTERPRET IT.

YOU KNOW, WE WOULD
BRING IN, LIKE,

SOMEONE, LIKE--

ELAINE, EILEEN MYLES

OR BERNADETTE MAYER--
MEIER--MAYER.

SO WE WOULD BRING IN PRETTY
BIG POETS WHO HAD A CAREER

ALREADY GOING ON,

AND I DON'T THINK THEY
WERE EXPOSED TO WHAT WE

WERE DOING.

I MEAN, IT WAS AN EDUCATION
FOR PEOPLE THAT CAME

IN FROM OUT OF TOWN, AS
WELL, THAT ALREADY WERE

WELL ON THEIR WAY WITH
CAREERS PROBABLY MORE

ADVANCED THAN OURS,
YOU KNOW, AT THE TIME.

IT OPENED UP A LOT OF--

IT JUST OPENED UP A LOT
OF THINGS FOR PEOPLE.

I REMEMBER...

THE POET
ABOUT THE SPACE SHUTTLE.

20 YEARS AGO.

IT STUCK WITH ME BECAUSE
IT WAS EXPERIENCED.

I COULD SEE IT AND THIS--

YOU MENTIONED IT EARLIER
BEFORE THE INTERVIEW WHERE

THE SPACE SHUTTLE CAME UP...

AND THEN IT EXPLODED.

IT MADE HIM THINK OF
KENNEDY BEING SHOT,

AND THEN THE
TEARS CAME DOWN,

AND MAYBE HEARING PEOPLE
ARE AT A DISADVANTAGE

BECAUSE THAT'S HARD TO--

WORDS ARE SO LIMITING.

YOU KNOW, I'M UP HERE
STRUGGLING MY ASS OFF

TRYING TO GET IT RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, WHEN WE WERE TALKING
BEFORE THE CAMERAS,

IT WAS, LIKE, YOU KNOW,
SO EASY,

BUT NOW, IT'S
LIKE, "OH, MY GOD."

THEY'RE SO LIMITING,
TRYING TO COMMUNICATE

WITH SOMEBODY WHAT YOU
REALLY WANT TO SAY AND, YOU

KNOW, THIS AND THEN KENNEDY
AND THEN COMING DOWN.

TO SAY THAT, IT'S REAL HARD
TO MAKE IT AS BEAUTIFUL AS

THAT WITH THE RIGHT
WORDS, WITH THE SOUND.

YOU KNOW,
POETRY'S SO COMPLEX.

SO I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT
UNTIL TALKING TO YOU THAT

MAYBE HEARING PEOPLE ARE
AT A DISADVANTAGE

IN MANY WAYS MAYBE, I THINK.

I THINK MAYBE WE'RE
THE DEAF PEOPLE.

I REALLY DO.

I REALLY DO.

I REALLY DO, ALTHOUGH
I WOULD MISS MY MUSIC,

HEARING MUSIC,
BUT MAYBE THAT'S--I DON'T KNOW.

YOU GET THE MUSIC, THOUGH.

INTERVIEWER: DIFFERENT KIND.
WENDY TALKED ABOUT--

I INTERVIEWED
WENDY LOW, AS WELL,

AND SHE MENTIONED--

- GOOD, OLD WENDY.
- WENDY WAS GREAT, AND SHE

MENTIONED THAT EACH CULTURE
AND EACH LANGUAGE HAS--

THEIR POETRY HAS DIFFERENT,
WONDERFUL MERITS THAT ARE

ENDEMIC TO THAT PARTICULAR
LANGUAGE, THAT IT CAN ONLY

DO BECAUSE OF
THE WAY IT IS,

AND THAT SIGN LANGUAGE ONE
OF THE THINGS THAT SHE SAID

SHE WOULD JUST GIVE HER TEETH
FOR IS ITS ABILITY TO DO

TRANSFORMATIONS AND MORPH
IMAGES INTO EACH OTHER

AND THAT WHOLE VISUAL
THING THAT--

MOVIE ANGLES AND ALL THAT
STUFF THAT YOU CAN DO THAT

WITH WORDS IT WILL TAKE
8 MILLION WORDS TO DESCRIBE

THIS IMAGE THAT SOMEBODY
CAN DO IN 4 SIGNS.

AHH.

INTERVIEWER: YOU JUST SEE,
LIKE, A PICTURE IN FRONT

OF YOU AND THAT THAT'S
THE THING THAT

SIGN LANGUAGE THAT--

YOU KNOW, MAYBE IT DOESN'T
HAVE 150 SYNONYMS

FOR "RUG," YOU KNOW, "GRAY
RUG ON FLOOR DIRTY," OR

SOMETHING, YOU KNOW,

BUT WHAT IT DOES HAVE IS
THIS PUTTING THE IMAGE OUT

WITH DIFFERENT, LITTLE
SUBTLETIES SO THAT YOU'LL

JUST GET IT.

YOU DON'T NEED
ALL THE WORDS.

IT'S SO DIRECT,

AND IT GOES RIGHT
IN YOU, YEAH.

THERE'S LESS DECORATION
TO THE--

TO GET TO THE CENTER
OF IT ALL, I THINK.

A PICTURE'S WORTH
A THOUSAND WORDS, YOU KNOW?

AND MAYBE THAT'S WHY--

MAYBE THAT'S WHY PAINTS.

YOU KNOW, TURNED TO
PAINTING MORE ALMOST

BECAUSE IT IS A LITTLE
MORE DIRECT, EVEN THOUGH IT

MIGHT BE MORE COMPLEX
OF WHAT'S BEING SAID,

BUT IT'S MORE
LAYERED, YOU KNOW?

THAT'S INTERESTING TO ME.

GOOD, OLD WENDY.

INTERVIEWER:
DO YOU REMEMBER--

YOU MENTIONED PATRICK GRAYBILL
WITH HIS SPACE SHUTTLE POEM.

DO YOU REMEMBER ANY OF
THE OTHER DEAF POETS

THAT YOU SAW?

I'M SURE YOU HAD A LOT
OF EXPOSURE TO PETER

AND KENNY, AND YOU REMEMBER
DEBBIE A LITTLE BIT.

I REMEMBER DEBBIE
A BIT, YEAH.

INTERVIEWER: I'M SURE IT'S
HARD WITHOUT HAVING SEEN

THEIR WORK IN A LONG TIME.

DO YOU REMEMBER ANY SORT OF
SENSE YOU HAD OF WHAT YOU

SAW THAT WAS DIFFERENT
ABOUT EACH OF THEM OR HIT

YOU A CERTAIN WAY ABOUT
THEIR STYLES, OR IS THAT TOO--

IT'S TOO HAZY TO REMEMBER?

I REMEMBER THIS
OTHER CAT, TOO.

HE'S STILL AROUND.

I SAW HIM THE OTHER
DAY AT THE MARKET.

- EDDIE.
- EDDIE SWAYZE.

- I REMEMBER EDDIE.
- COMING IN THIS AFTERNOON.

WELL, YOU KNOW, I
THINK IT'S HARD TO--

AS A DEAF POET, IT'S
PROBABLY HARD TO COPY--

COP A STYLE, YOU KNOW?

YOU KIND OF HAVE TO
BE WHO YOU ARE.

I MEAN, IT'S YOUR
BODY, YOU KNOW?

THE BODY'S THE POEM.

I MEAN, HOW COOL IS THAT,

AND HOW DO YOU COPY
SOMEONE ELSE'S BODY?

YOU KNOW, I GUESS PEOPLE
ARE DOING IT THESE DAYS,

BUT I'M NOT
RECOMMENDING IT.

EVERYBODY WAS--YOU KNOW,
THE INDIVIDUAL HAS TO COME

OUT IF YOU'RE EVEN--

IF YOU'RE WHO YOU ARE.

YOUR BODY IS WHO--
IT'S NOT WHO YOU ARE,

BUT IT'S REPRESENTING
WHO YOU ARE, I GUESS,

AND YOU CAN'T FAKE THAT,

AND THAT'S KIND OF NEAT.

IT'S KIND OF NEAT.

WORDS, YOU KNOW, WE CAN--

US HEARING POETS CAN
COPY STYLES AND WHATNOT,

AND I GUESS YOU CAN--

I'M SURE THEY'RE
INFLUENCED BY EACH OTHER.

I'M SURE KENNY BLEW
THE LID OPEN FOR PEOPLE TO

EVEN DO THIS,

BUT YOU CAN'T COPY
PETER, YOU KNOW?

HOW DO YOU COPY PETER?

YOU CAN'T I DON'T THINK.

SO THERE WAS A--

MAYBE THERE'S A MORE OF
A RESPECT FOR THE INDIVIDUAL

IN A WAY BECAUSE
YOU'RE KIND OF FORCED

INTO THAT IT SEEMS MAYBE.

YOU'RE MAKING ME
THINK A LOT, MIRIAM.

MIRIAM: I'M SO SORRY.

NO, THAT'S GOOD. IT'S GOOD.

MIRIAM: I'LL STOP SOON.

I'LL HAVE ANSWERS
FOR YOU IN A WEEK.

MIRIAM: HA HA HA!
BRING YOU BACK IN.

YOU KNOW?

MIRIAM: DO YOU
REMEMBER GOING TO VERMONT?

DIDN'T YOU GO
THE [INDISTINCT] FESTIVAL ONE

TIME WHEN PETER WAS THERE
AND YOU GUYS SPENT

THE WHOLE TIME WRITING ON
A PIECE OF WOOD AND YOU TOOK

THE PIECE OF WOOD HOME WITH
YOUR WHOLE CONVERSATION

FROM THE WHOLE WEEKEND?

MAYBE.

MIRIAM: I WONDERED IF
YOU STILL HAD THAT

PIECE OF WOOD.

YOU GUYS WERE BACK
AND FORTH FOR ABOUT--

LIKE, EVERY TIME I CAME
OUT TO THE CAMPFIRE--

YOU CAME.

DANG. I REMEMBER
THAT. YEAH.

MIRIAM: YOU AN PEG CAME TO THAT.

ISN'T THAT--YEAH,
YEAH, YEAH.

MIRIAM: I REMEMBER YOU
TAKING THIS PIECE OF WOOD

AND, LIKE, PUTTING
IT IN YOUR CAR.

AW, MAN. I WISH
I HAD THAT. NO.

MIRIAM: I'D LOVE
TO SEE THAT.

WELL, PETER'S--YOU
KNOW, PETER IS AMAZING.

I REMEMBER PETER, HE WAS,
LIKE, A BLOCK AWAY FROM ME.

HIS BACK WAS TO ME,

AND I YELLED AT HIM BECAUSE
I FORGET PETER'S DEAF.

YOU KNOW, I JUST FORGET
THAT I CAN HEAR,

ONE OF THE TWO.

HE TURNED AROUND, YOU KNOW?

IT WAS THE WEIRDEST THING.

HE JUST TURNED AROUND AS
SOON AS I YELLED AT HIM.

HE'S IN TOUCH
WITH SOMETHING.

I MEAN, HE COULD
READ LIPS SO WELL,

BUT I NEVER--

TALKING TO HIM WAS, LIKE,
THE MOST NATURAL THING

IN THE WORLD,

AND UNDERSTANDING HIM FOR
ME WAS THE MUST AMAZING

THING IN THE
WORLD, YOU KNOW?

JUST SO DIRECT,

AND THERE'S AN EMOTIONAL
LEVEL WITH THE DEAF POETRY,

TOO, WHICH WE KIND OF
TALKED ABOUT ABSTRACTLY

MAYBE WHERE IT JUST--

YOU GOT TO BE THERE.

YOU GOT TO BE
THERE, YOU KNOW?

MIRIAM: MM-HMM.

YOU HAVE TO BE THERE OR
DON'T SHOW UP, YOU KNOW?

WHAT'S THE POINT?
I DON'T KNOW.

MIRIAM: DO YOU
REMEMBER DEBBIE?

DID YOU EVER MEET
HER OR TALK TO HER?

UM...NOT TOO MUCH.

I THINK SHE WAS--NOT A LOT.

I KNOW SHE WAS
A MAJOR PLAYER AND ALL,

AND I'VE ALWAYS
RESPECTED DEBBIE,

BUT I DON'T
REALLY REMEMBER--

REMEMBER A LOT ABOUT HER.

I THINK SHE WAS
A--I DON'T KNOW.

MIRIAM: OK. WELL, ONCE SHE
AND KENNY BROKE UP, SHE WAS

PRETTY MUCH--

SHE WAS STILL DOING STUFF
AROUND HERE AND THERE,

BUT SHE WASN'T AS MUCH,
AND THEN SHE MOVED AWAY.

MM-HMM, AND I THINK SHE WAS
AWAY WHEN WE STARTED

PAINTED ROPE MAYBE,
OR MAYBE SHE WAS--

WAS SHE STILL AROUND?

MIRIAM: OH, YEAH.
VERY MUCH A PART

OF THE WHOLE COMMUNITY.

YEAH. YEAH. I'M SORRY I
DON'T REMEMBER TOO MUCH.

MIRIAM: I JUST DIDN'T
KNOW IF YOU HAD ANYTHING

ABOUT HER.

THE ONE THING I WOULD
LIKE TO ASK YOU--

AND BASICALLY,
YOU'VE TOUCHED ON--

YOU'VE GIVEN ME LOTS
OF GREAT STUFF,

THIS IS EXCELLENT.

WHAT IS POETRY?

- PARDON?
- WHAT IS POETRY?

- WHAT IS IT?
- WHAT IS IT?

WHAT IS THIS THAT
WE CALL POETRY?

WELL...

IT'S THE, UH--I DON'T
LIKE TO REVERT TO QUOTES,

BUT I THINK OLSON--
CHARLES OLSON SAID IT'S

THE ONLY--OR MAYBE
HE WAS SAYING ART,

BUT SAME THING.

CHARLES OLSON SAID, "ART
IS THE ONLY TWIN LIFE HAS."

I KIND OF LIKE THAT.

YEAH.

IT'S A DANCE.

IT'S ANOTHER LANGUAGE.

IT TRULY IS ANOTHER LANGUAGE.

IT'S NOT THE--
IT MIGHT BE A TWIN,

BUT IT'S NOT
THE EXPERIENCE.

UM...IT'S NOT THE
EXPERIENCE THAT--

I'M NOT JUST TAKING
A PICTURE OF WHAT HAPPENED.

I THINK A GOOD POEM--

OH, PERHAPS--PERHAPS
IT MAKES VISIBLE

WHAT'S INVISIBLE.

MIRIAM: CAN YOU SAY
THAT STARTING

WITH "POETRY MAKES"?

CAN YOU START THAT
WITH "POETRY MAKES"?

I THINK POETRY MAKES
VISIBLE WHAT'S INVISIBLE.

IT UNREPRESSES,
IT UNDENIES, IT--

IT SAYS IT'S OK TO LAUGH OR CRY
OR FUCK OR WHATEVER, YOU KNOW?

IT'S REAL.

IT'S, UM...

IT'S--IT'S TRUTH.

IT'S TRUTH, I THINK,
A DEEPER TRUTH THAN, LIKE,

YOU KNOW, "MY HAT'S BROWN,"
BUT THERE'S A TRUTH

INVOLVED TO IT THAT
WE DON'T ALWAYS GET

TO, YOU KNOW?

WITHOUT IT, I--I--I DON'T
KNOW IF I WOULD BE HERE.

I WOULDN'T BE HERE,

BUT I DON'T KNOW IF I'D
BE HERE, YOU KNOW?

YEAH.

I'M WIPED.

MIRIAM: HA HA HA!

WELL, THAT'S--

THAT WAS HARDER
THAN I THOUGHT.

MIRIAM: THAT'S IT.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.

I THINK YOUR HAT IS POETIC,
SO, I MEAN--

BEERS: MY HAT? YEAH, IT IS.

MIRIAM: HA HA HA!

BEERS: YEAH, IT WOULD
HAVE BEEN BETTER IF WE

JUST PRETEN--
YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW.

MIRIAM: HA HA HA!

CAMERA'S SPOOK YOU?

[INDISTINCT CHATTER]

NO. IT'S STILL COLD.

I'M ALWAYS COLD, THOUGH.

THAT WAS GREAT. I'M SORRY
YOU DIDN'T FEEL--

THE CAMERA SPOOKED YOU?

BEERS: NO, BUT IT JUST--YOU
KNOW, TALKING BEFOREHAND, THINGS

COME OUT EASIER.

MIRIAM: THAT'S WHY I
WAS TRYING TO HOLD BACK.

I REALIZED THAT WE
WERE GONNA SHOOT

THE WAD BEFORE,

AND I MADE THIS MISTAKE
A MONTH AGO WITH SOMEBODY.

NOT A MISTAKE. WE HAD
A HALF-HOUR CONVERSATION.

IT WAS RICH AND WONDERFUL.
WE CAME IN,

AND HE HAD ABSOLUTELY
HARDLY ANYTHING LEFT.

HE DID A GREAT JOB,

BUT LATER, HE SAID,
"I DON'T FEEL GOOD

"ABOUT THIS STUFF.

"I DIDN'T GIVE YOU
WHAT YOU NEEDED.

WE TALKED ABOUT
IT ALL BEFORE."

I SAID, "I THINK I LED
YOU BACK ENOUGH TO WHAT I

- REMEMBERED YOU SAID."
- MM-HMM.

MIRIAM: SO THAT'S WHY I
WAS LIKE, "OH, I

ALMOST DID IT."

I WAS LIKE,
"DON'T--NOT YET, NOT YET."

BEERS: WELL, IT'S JUST
LIKE TALKING, I CAN

SAY SO MUCH, AND--

HI. MY NAME IS
EDDIE SWAYZE.

I KNOW ASL WELL,

BUT I'M USING MY VOICE
AND SIGN AT THE SAME TIME

BECAUSE I'M BEING MORE
COMPATIBLE WITH HEARING

PEOPLE, TOO, THEIR
ACCESSIBILITY, ALSO.

FAIR ENOUGH.
MM-HMM.

INTERVIEWER: WHEN DID YOU
GET INTERESTED IN POETRY?

WELL, I'D BEEN WRITING
POETRY IN ENGLISH WRITING

DURING HIGH SCHOOL
YEARS IN THE EIGHTIES.

MY HIGH SCHOOL WAS
HORSEHEADS HIGH SCHOOL NEAR

ELMIRA AREA IN NEW YORK.

DURING THAT TIME, THE PUNK
MOVEMENT WAS GOING ON,

AND I DISCOVERED PATTI SMITH
AND SAW HER WRITING.

I WAS FASCINATED WITH HER
WAY OF PLAYING WITH WORDS.

I STARTED EXPERIMENTING MY
OWN WITH USING SOME WORDS,

YOU KNOW, BUT I WROTE
POEMS FOR A WHILE.

THEN WHEN I GOT INTO NTID
IN 1983, I DISCOVERED

JIM COHN, PETER COOK,
DEBBIE RENNIE, AND ALL THAT,

BUT I DIDN'T THINK
ABOUT PERFORMING MYSELF

AND TRANSLATING
POETRY TO--

YOU KNOW, ENGLISH TO ASL.

I HADN'T THOUGHT
ABOUT THAT.

ONLY SIGNING SONGS.

I'D BEEN DOING IT
SINCE 12 YEARS OLD,

SIGNING SONGS.

WHEN I MET JIM COHN, HE
ASKED ME IF I'M INTERESTED

IN DOING ASL POETRY.

"OH, I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT.
LET ME TRY IT."

SO I WENT TO JAZZ FAIR
FIRST TIME IN 1983,

1984--I DON'T REMEMBER--

BUT THAT'S HOW I GOT
INTO ASL POETRY IS

FROM JIM COHN.

HE WAS MY TEACHER IN
THE CLASS BACK THEN.

HOMEWORK WRITING, HOMEWORK
ASSIGNMENT, HE NOTICED IT

WAS POETIC,
SO HE ASKED IF ME I'M A POET.

YEAH, HE RECOGNIZED
KIND OF WRITING--

YOU KNOW, MY WRITING IN
ENGLISH WAS NOT SO GOOD

AT THAT TIME
COMPARED TO NOW,

BUT HE NOTICED THIS
POETIC KIND OF WRITING,

SO HE ASKED ME IF
I WAS A POET.

"HAVE YOU THOUGHT
ABOUT PERFORMING ASL?"

I'D SEEN PETER COOK
PERFORM AND ALL THAT, BUT ME?

OH. "OK. I'LL
GIVE IT A TRY."

SO EVER SINCE.

INTERVIEWER: SO BEFORE YOU MET
JIM COHN WROTE ENGLISH POETRY?

YEAH, WROTE, YEAH,

AND THEN REALLY SIGNING
ASL POETRY DIDN'T CROSS

MY MIND REALLY.

I WAS JUST SIGNING SONGS
MOSTLY IN THAT TIME.

INTERVIEWER:
SIGNED THE ENGLISH?

WELL, I SIGNED THE SONG
WITH THE MUSIC,

ENGLISH REALLY,
A LITTLE BIT OF ASL, MAYBE PSE.

DEPENDS ON THE LYRICS.

I DON'T REMEMBER
SPELLING, THOUGH.

I DON'T REMEMBER.

INTERVIEWER: SO WHEN
YOU FIRST STARTED, LIKE,

EXPERIMENTING FOR YOURSELF,
DID YOU WRITE IT FIRST

AND THEN TRY IT IN ASL,
OR YOU USE ASL FIRST?

WELL, I DID WRITE FIRST
BECAUSE I WROTE

FOR A LONG TIME,

AND I TOOK SOME OF
THE POEMS THAT I WROTE

AND TRANSLATED INTO ASL.

ONE I REMEMBER--I
DON'T REMEMBER THE NAME

OF THE POEM.

I THINK IT'S
"BECAUSE THE NIGHT."

I THINK THAT WAS
A PATTI SMITH POEM,

AND IT WAS MY FIRST ONE.

I HAD IT WITH ME WHEN
I WAS AT NTID,

AND JIM WAS,
LIKE, "COME HERE.

OH, THIS IS SMALL,
A GOOD START."

NOT A LONG POEM,
NOT COMPLICATED,

SO I TRANSLATED IT TO ASL,
AND I DID IT THAT.

I STILL DO SOMETIMES
ENGLISH WRITTEN,

TRANSLATING TO ASL,
SOMETIMES NOT AT ALL.

BACK AND FORTH.

IT REALLY DEPENDS ON HOW
THE CREATIVE PROCESS GOES.

INTERVIEWER: WHEN YOU FIRST
STARTED ASL POETRY, DID

YOU FEEL--

DID YOU FEEL HOW YOU LET
ON THE WORDS,

HOW YOU USED THE IMAGE?

WAS IT HARD FOR
YOU, AWKWARD?

IT WAS HARD IN THE
BEGINNING, YEAH,

AND I REMEMBER BEFORE
ROOKIE NIGHT OR SOMEWHERE

THERE BEFORE OR AFTER--

I DON'T KNOW--TAKING
PETER COOK WORKSHOPS.

I REMEMBER
PETER COOK CHALLENGED ME.

HE SAID, "DON'T LOOK
AT THE WORDS.

"DON'T THINK OF
THE ENGLISH WORDS.

TRY AND SAY IT ALL WITH
PICTURES," AND I WAS LIKE.

HEH.

YOU KNOW,
A CHALLENGE STILL.

NOW I'M MUCH
BETTER HERE, TOO,

BUT, YEAH, I REMEMBER
IT WAS A CHALLENGE,

AND IT WAS A CHALLENGE.

INTERVIEWER: SO YOUR WORK
NOW IS WRITTEN IN ASL,

OR DO YOU TEND TO WRITE?

WELL, I STILL WRITE.

I STILL ENJOY WRITING,

AND I LOVE PLAYING
WITH WORDS IN ENGLISH.

I LOVE DOING THAT, SIT
DOWN WITH, YOU KNOW,

BUT I DO LOVE ASL, ALSO.

SOMETIMES, SOME POEMS I
TRANSLATE INTO ASL.

SOMETIMES, IT'S JUST
ASL FROM SCRATCH,

AND THINGS IN THEATER
TO SCRIPT-WRITING IS

FOR ASL, TOO.

YOU KNOW, ENGLISH, SHAKESPEARE
TO ASL WAS A CHALLENGE,

AND I DID IT FOR "TEMPEST"
BACK IN 1989, WHICH IS

THE FIRST THEATRICAL PERFORMANCE
I AM INVOLVED WITH.

I WAS ALWAYS
A PERFORMING ARTIST.

DAVID PULLED ME INTO
"TEMPEST," AND I WAS LIKE,

"OK. I DON'T KNOW.
SHAKESPEARE. OOH."

THANK GOD I HAVE PETER HAGGERTY,
WHO'S A BRILLIANT

ENGLISH TEACHER AND KNOWS
SHAKESPEARE AND HELPED

ME WITH IT.

THAT HELPS A LOT,
SO I STILL DO--

I'M DOING "SIGNERELLA" NOW.

IT'S A SMALL PRODUCTION.

IT'S A TWIST OF
"CINDERELLA,"

AND IT'S A SCRIPT,

AND I HAVE TO LOOK AT IT
AND TRANSLATE INTO ASL.

SO IT REALLY DEPENDS.

SOME OF THE SCRIPT THAT I
SAW IN "SIGNERELLA,"

THE ENGLISH, I WOULD THINK,
"I DON'T NEED THAT."

PFFT! THE CONCEPT,
IT REALLY DEPENDS.

IT'S BACK AND FORTH.

IT'S BILINGUAL.
I'M VERY BILINGUAL.

INTERVIEWER: HOW DID YOU
JUST STARTING POETRY

[INDISTINCT]

YEAH. THAT CAME FROM
LAURIE ANDERSON, A MULTIMEDIA

PERFORMING ARTIST.

SHE INFLUENCED ME
A LOT BECAUSE OF COURSE

SHE'S POETIC.

SHE PLAYS WITH WORDS,

BUT ALSO EVER SINCE I WAS
A KID, I'VE ALWAYS LOVED

SCI-FI THINGS OR HIGH-TECH
IMAGES AND, YOU KNOW,

CYBERNETIC, PUNKY LOOK,

AND LAURIE ANDERSON HAS
A LOT OF THAT IN HER

MULTIMEDIA THINGS.

VIDEO BEHIND HER, THE HUGE
VIDEO, ANIMATION OF HER

WORK, VOCAL RECORDINGS.

CHANGING TO A MALE VOICE
WITH VOCODER TECHNOLOGY

AND VIOLIN WITH
BINARY-CODED TAPE.

SHE PLAYED IT
BUT WITH HERSELF.

LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN.

THINGS LIKE THAT.

I THOUGHT ABOUT,
"WOW. THAT'S SO COOL."

AND SHE INFLUENCED
ME, IS ONE EXAMPLE.

POETRY--I'VE DONE
ELECTRONIC MUSIC.

I'VE DONE A LITTLE BIT,

BUT MOSTLY IS ONE IS THE
SINGER BJORK'S ONE WORK

"PLUTO," THE NAME OF THE SONG.

VERY, VERY SHORT
AND FAST AND VERY MECHANICAL,

TECHNO WORK,
AND I THOUGHT, "WOW."

IT WAS ALMOST LIKE
LAURIE ANDERSON.

CONCEPT A LITTLE BIT.

YOU SEE THE
BIKE, RED LIGHT--

BLINKING RED LIGHT ON THE
BACK OF A BIKE ONE NIGHT.

PROTECTION FOR THE BIKERS
RIDING, BLINKING RED LIGHT,

TWO OF THEM ON HER HANDS
AND MOVE ALONG THE MUSIC.

I'M NOT SIGNING THE SONG.

I PUT IT DOWN,
AND I SIGNED,

AND I ALSO HAD GLASSES--
BATTERY-RUN GLASSES LIGHT,

AND I MOVE.

VERY ROBOTIC-LOOKING.

PEOPLE LOVED THAT,

AND I DID THAT RECENTLY
A COUPLE MONTHS AGO

FOR ONE SMALL GROUP OF STUDENTS,

BUT I ALSO DID IT BACK
IN 1990s FOR ASL CAFE

AT THE COLLEGE CAFE,
AND IT WAS MOSTLY JAPANESE

STUDENTS FROM--

VISITOR JAPANESE STUDENTS.

THEY ONLY KNOW JSL.

THEY DIDN'T KNOW ASL WELL.

WHEN I DID BJORK,
THEY KNEW BJORK.

IT'S VERY
POPULAR IN JAPAN,

AND WHEN I DID THAT, THEY
IMITATED ME LIKE CRAZY.

THIS ONE WOMAN WAS
JUST DANCING LIKE NUTS.

IT WAS LIKE,
"WOW. THAT IS REALLY COOL."

SO LAURIE ANDERSON
INFLUENCED ME WITH THE IDEA

OF USING TECHNOLOGY, EVEN
THOUGH MINE WORKS MORE

SIMPLE AND CHEAPER
COMPARED TO HER EQUIPMENT.

I MEAN, I'M NOT RICH
LIKE HER WITH ALL THAT--

WHICH I'D LOVE TO,

BUT USE WHAT I CAN
AFFORD AND MAKE IT

MORE INTERESTING.

INTERVIEWER: DO YOU
HAVE A TAPE OF THIS?

I THINK YOU MIGHT NEED TO
CONTACT SOMEONE INVOLVED

IN ASL CAFE.

BACK THEN, I KNOW IT
WAS DAVID STROM,

AND HE MOVED TO CALIFORNIA.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU
CAN CONTACT HIM,

OR DELLA GORELICK MIGHT
HAVE SOME VIDEOS.

SHE HAS--I THINK I HEARD
THAT SHE HAS A VIDEO OF ME

DOING PATTI SMITH "PEOPLE
HAVE THE POWER" AND A VERY

PHENOMENAL
VIDEO I WAS TOLD.

I DIDN'T SEE IT.

THAT WAS BACK IN THE
NINETIES AT ASL CAFE.

YEAH, SO HAVE TO CHECK.

INTERVIEWER: DID YOU USE
MUSIC IN THE EIGHTIES--

STARTED USING MUSIC, DID
YOU FEEL THAT THAT WAS--

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU
CALL YOURS THESE DAYS.

DID YOU FEEL LIKE
ADDING MUSIC TO YOUR POETRY

MADE DEAF AUDIENCES
UNCOMFORTABLE,

OR DID YOU FEEL
THEY WERE OPEN,

OR WHAT DID YOU--

I DON'T KNOW. I REALLY--

I WOULDN'T CARE REALLY IF
THEY'LL ACCEPT IT OR NOT,

BUT I'M SURE THERE ARE DEAF
NOT COMFORTABLE

WITH THE IDEA OF HAVING
A HARD-OF-HEARING PERSON--

BECAUSE I AM
HARD-OF--I CALL MYSELF

HARD-OF-HEARING REALLY,

BUT I DON'T MIND
PEOPLE CALLING ME DEAF.

IT DOESN'T BOTHER ME AT
ALL BECAUSE I AM PART

OF THE DEAF CULTURE ANYWAY.

I'M REALLY IN DEAF
CULTURE ALL THE TIME,

SO I NEVER LET GO OF THAT.

I ASSERT
MYSELF REALLY WELL.

WELL, IT'S JUST THAT
MY HEARING ABILITY

WITH A HEARING AID ON
JUST ENABLED ME TO BE

HARD-OF-HEARING.

IT'S JUST THE CAPABILITY,
THE TECHNOLOGY TODAY.

THE FUTURE, WHO KNOWS,

BUT REALLY, RIGHT NOW,
I CALL MYSELF

HARD-OF-HEARING.

WITHOUT HEARING AIDS, I'M
GONE PRETTY MUCH WITHOUT

HEARING ANYTHING REALLY,

SO I REALLY DEPEND ON A LOT.

SO WE CALL OURSELVES
HARD-OF-HEARING.

WELL, RECORDING TO--

RECORDING TO
SIGNING A SONG--

I MEAN, USING MUSIC,
THE REALITY IS THAT MUSIC HAS

BEEN A PART OF MY LIFE
SINCE I WAS A KID.

IT HAS NOT CHANGED,

AND HEARING AIDS
THEMSELVES, THOSE TWO

HEARING AIDS, THEY'RE
MUCH MORE [INDISTINCT]

THAN BEFORE.

THEY PICK UP HIGH
FREQUENCIES SO MUCH BETTER

THAT I'M ABLE TO PLAY
GUITAR AND ELECTRONIC MUSIC

AND ELECTRIC GUITAR,

BUT YET THAT DOESN'T MEAN
THAT I'M ABLE TO SING

WITH A GUITAR WELL.

I DON'T SING WELL ENOUGH
TO MATCH THE KEY.

I KNOW THAT.

SO I JUST PLAY GUITAR AND
ELECTRONIC MUSIC FOR FUN.

I DON'T EXPECT TO BE FAMOUS
AND SUCCESSFUL WITH THAT

BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THAT.

I'M REALISTIC TO MYSELF,
AND I'M NOT THERE,

BUT I STILL ENJOY
ELECTRONIC MUSIC IN AS

SIMPLE WAY AS POSSIBLE
BECAUSE I KNOW I CAN

UNDERSTAND HOW TO DO IT
AND USE MY POEMS ALONG

WITH ELECTRONIC MUSIC,
USING GARAGE BAND SOFTWARE

AND iMAC, WHICH IS THE
ONLY THING I HAVE

AND I CAN AFFORD.

IT'S ALREADY THERE.

I CAN'T AFFORD TO BUY
PROPLAY AND ALL THAT STUFF

THAT LAURIE OR MOBY HAVE,

BUT WHAT I HAVE
IS WHAT I HAVE,

SO I USED IT AND I CREATED
ELECTRONIC MUSIC SOUNDSCAPES.

IT MAY NOT BE PERFECT
MUSICAL CORRECTNESS OR RULES,

OR IT MAY NOT BE PERFECT,
AND THAT'S FINE.

I JUST WANT THE BEATS
AND THEN THE SLIGHTEST

BACKGROUND TO GO WITH
POETRY IS GOOD ENOUGH.

SO I ENJOY THAT.

SO HEARING PEOPLE
TEND TO ENJOY THAT.

SEEING ELECTRONIC MUSIC
AND HEARING THE WORDS

AND SEEING THE MOVEMENT
OF THE HANDS, THE BODY

LANGUAGE, THEY
REALLY ENJOY THAT,

AND I'VE SEEN THAT WHEN
I SPOKE AT THE JUST POETS

ORGANIZATION, WHICH I'M
SUPPOSED TO DO THE WORKSHOP

PRESENTING THAT,
2 OR 3 OF MY WORKS

AT ST. JOHN FISHER COLLEGE
IN FEBRUARY OF NEXT YEAR.

YEAH. SO IF DEAF PEOPLE DON'T
LIKE IT, I CAN UNDERSTAND

THEY COULDN'T
GET THE MUSIC,

AND WHY WOULD I DO IT?

WELL, I JUST
LOVE THE SOUND.

ACTUALLY, HIGH-FREQUENCY
SOUND, ELECTRONIC SOUND,

AND SYNTHESIZER THINGS
AND SPACEY SOUNDS--

I LOVE SOUNDSCAPES,
SPACEY, NEW AGE,

AND THAT'S WHY I LOVE
BJORK AND TECHNO MUSIC

AND LAURIE ANDERSON.

IT JUST HAS THOSE
WEIRD BEEP SOUNDS.

I JUST LOVE IT.

GARY NUMAN, FOR EXAMPLE,
BRITISH ELECTRONIC MUSIC,

SO...

INTERVIEWER: DID THAT
INSPIRE PEOPLE TO COME

UP THEMSELVES?

I DON'T REMEMBER.

I'M SURE THERE ARE.

INTERVIEWER: AFTERWARDS,
DO PEOPLE COME UP AND ASK?

NO. I'VE SEEN SOME
HARD-OF-HEARING, DEAF PEOPLE DO

LIKE IT,
ESPECIALLY THE LIGHTS.

IT JUST LOOKED COOL
AND WAS AN UNUSUAL THING,

AND THEY WERE FASCINATED.

IT MAY NOT NECESSARILY
MEAN THEY LIKE THE MUSIC.

MAYBE THEY DON'T HEAR IT,

BUT THEY LIKE THE VISUAL.

A HEARING PERSON
WOULD LIKE MY WORK,

BUT THEY DIDN'T KNOW
IN REALITY IT'S NOT

PERFECT MUSIC.

IT'S NOT.

INTERVIEWER: THEY GET
THE FULL VERSION.

YEAH. SO THEY DEAF PEOPLE
MAY NOT PICK MUSIC.

IF THEY DON'T HEAR
HIGH FREQUENCIES AT ALL,

THEY MAY FEEL
THE BEAT AND STUFF.

I DID THAT
WITH A DRAMA CLUB HERE,

AND THEY GET THE BEAT,
AND THEY ENJOY IT,

BUT THEY DON'T
KNOW WHAT MUSIC IS.

SOME MAY NOT.
I'M NOT SAYING ALL OF THEM.

THERE ARE A LOT OF DEAF
WHO HAVE A HEARING ABILITY.

THERE ARE DIFFERENT
LEVELS THEY CAN PICK UP.

I REMEMBER ONE DEAF STUDENT
FROM DRAMA CLUB WHO LIKED

ELECTRONIC MUSIC.

THEY LIKED THE SWEET SOUND.

THEY WOULD PICK UP
HIGH FREQUENCIES.

IT'S HARD IF YOU CAN'T PICK
UP HIGH FREQUENCIES TO HEAR

A SWEET SOUND
ON A SYNTHESIZER.

THAT'S INTERESTING.

SO IT REALLY DEPENDS ON
THE INDIVIDUAL AND THE LEVEL

OF HEARING ABILITY IF
THEY LIKE IT OR NOT.

REALLY, IT'S UP
TO THEM REALLY.

I'M NOT TRYING TO BE
A TOP 40 MUSICIAN OR POP, NO.

INTERVIEWER: DO YOU EVER
DO STRAIGHT POETRY

WITHOUT MUSIC?

OH, YEAH. I'VE DONE
A LOT OF THOSE, YES.

I HAVE A LOT OF POEMS
THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO

WITH ELECTRONIC MUSIC.

INTERVIEWER: SOMETIMES,
DO YOU COMPOSE A FULL SET

OF ONLY POETRY
AND A FULL SET OF ONLY MUSIC?

WELL...SOMETIMES,
I'LL GO BACK AND FORTH

AND SOMETIMES SEPARATE.

LIKE "CYBORG DRAG QUEEN,"
THE POEM THAT JUST GOT

PUBLISHED IN "EYES OF DESIRE,"
DEAF, HARD-OF-HEARING,

GAY, LESBIAN,
BISEXUAL, TRANSGENDER

WRITERS, THAT WAS ENGLISH
WRITTEN, TRANSLATED TO ASL.

I HAVE ELECTRONIC
MUSIC WITH THAT,

BUT I HAVE NOT USED
IT TO PERFORM IT.

I'M NOT SATISFIED WITH IT,

SO I HAVE PERFORMED THAT
"CYBORG DRAG QUEEN" POEM

WITH NO VOICE AND JUST
PURE ASL STORYTELLING.

SCI-FI, SET IN A FUTURISTIC
NEW YORK CITY

ABOUT A DRAG QUEEN--

OR REALLY AN ANDROID DOING
THINGS WITH A COCHLEAR

IMPLANT, KIND OF REVERSING
[INDISTINCT].

INTERVIEWER: DO YOU THINK
WHAT YOU DO WITH POETRY

AND MUSIC AS
PERFORMING ARTS?

PERFORMING ARTS?
I DON'T KNOW.

GOOD QUESTION.
I HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF THAT.

IS POETRY PERFORMING ARTS?

WELL, YOU KNOW, LIKE,
LAURIE ANDERSON I WAS

TALKING ABOUT, SHE USED
POETRY OR WRITING THAT SHE

DID FOR THE MUSIC.

IT WAS CALLED
PERFORMING ARTS.

I COULD SAY THAT
IT'S PERFORMING ARTS.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE
IS SHE DOESN'T SIGN.

I DO.

SHE KNOWS ASL.
SHE STUDIED LINGUISTICS.

LAURIE ANDERSON'S DONE
THAT FOR Ph.D,

MUSIC AND LINGUISTICS.

SHE KNOWS SOME OF THAT,

BUT SHE'S NOT FLUENT
IN ASL, OF COURSE NOT.

NOT HER FIRST LANGUAGE.

SHE DIDN'T REALLY GET
INTO INTERPRETING.

SO MORE USING
HANDS MORE THAN--

SHE'S JUST A VOICE.

I PERFORM WITHOUT A VOICE.

I DON'T KNOW.

INTERVIEWER: DO YOU
CONSIDER WHAT YOU DO TO

BE STORYTELLING?

YES, IN A WAY.

MY "CYBORG DRAG QUEEN" HAS
A POETIC FORM OR WRITING,

BUT IT'S MORE A BALLAD
THAN IT'S A STORY.

IT SETS UP THE TIME,
NEW YORK CITY IN THE FUTURE.

SUPERCONDUCT CARS
AND ALL THAT STUFF,

BUT IT ALSO HAS POETIC
WORDS IN IT TRANSLATED

INTO ASL,

AND IT ALSO HAS A CLEAR
STATEMENT IN THE END,

SO POETRY--IF IT'S JUST
REALLY MEANT TO BE POETRY

ALONE, IT'D BE POETRY.

IT'D BE CONSIDERED POEMS.

THERE'S A WRITTEN
BALLAD, A LONG VERSE.

IT A STORY SETUP.

INTERVIEWER:
I GUESS WHEN IT'S SIGNED,

IMAGERY IS INCLUDED.

IF YOU'RE SIGNING POETRY,
DO YOU FEEL IT CAN BE DIFFERENT?

IT CAN BE DIFFERENT, YEAH,
BECAUSE POETRY IN ASL IS

JUST MOSTLY
PLAYING WITH WORDS.

IT DOESN'T REALLY OFTEN
SET UP A TIME AND DAY

AND CONFLICT AND RESOLUTION
LIKE THE STORY,

AND A STORY HAS CONFLICT
AND RESOLUTION, RIGHT?

LIKE THIS THING, YOU KNOW?

I LEARNED LITERATURE.

I TAUGHT LITERATURE,
SO I KNOW WHAT THAT IS,

SO THERE'S THE DIFFERENCE.

POETRY HAS METAPHORS.

STORIES DO,

BUT YOU FOCUS
ON THE TIME WHEN WE'RE

IN THE EXPOSITION,
PHENOMENAL, THE MIDDLE,

AND ESCALATION,
AND CONFLICT RESOLUTION.

IS THAT RIGHT?
SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YEAH.

INTERVIEWER: [INDISTINCT]

I SAW YOU OFTEN IN
THE AUDIENCE,

JAZZ FAIR AUDIENCE.

"YAY!"

A FEW TIMES, I'D GIVE YOU
A RIDE TO JAZZ FAIR.

I DIDN'T HAVE A CAR
AT THAT TIME, YEAH.

INTERVIEWER: SO YOU
WERE YOUNG, LIKE, 21?

21, 22, YEAH.

INTERVIEWER: WHAT'D YOU
THINK ABOUT YOU WERE SEEING?

YEAH. THAT TIME, I WAS
VERY EXCITED BECAUSE IT WAS

PHENOMENAL BECAUSE I DIDN'T
THINK THAT WOULD HAPPEN

AT ALL IN MY LIFETIME,
IN THAT TIME,

AND WHEN THAT HAPPENED,
IT WAS LIKE PUNK MOVEMENT

AT THE TIME, EXPLOSION
OF THE NEW THING.

I GOT SO EXCITED,

AND SO I KEPT
GOING AND GOING,

AND I ENDED UP
PERFORMING THERE SOMETIMES.

I DON'T KNOW.

IT WAS JUST A GOOD GROUP
OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SERIOUS

POETS, PERFORMING ARTISTS,
ACTORS, YOU KNOW, THERE TO

NETWORK AND BE FRIENDS.

I GOT TO KNOW PETER
AND DEBBIE AND ALL THAT,

AND IT THEY WERE JUST
SO WONDERFUL TOGETHER.

ALL THE PARTIES WE
HAD AFTER WERE GREAT, SO...

INTERVIEWER: THEY WERE.

HOW DID YOU MEET JIM COHN?

WELL, I SAW HIM
AROUND ON CAMPUS.

HE WAS AN INSTRUCTOR,

AND HE WAS ALWAYS TEACHING OR
INTERPRETING AND ALL THAT STUFF,

AND THEN WHEN I REGISTERED
ONE CLASS, A WRITING OR

ENGLISH CLASS, WHATEVER--
I DON'T REMEMBER--

IT SAID, "TBA."

DIDN'T KNOW WHO--IT
TURNED OUT TO BE HIM,

AND I MET HIM
AND GOT TO HIM,

AND HE WAS AN INSTRUCTOR,

AND THAT'S HOW I GOT PULLED
INTO JAZZ FAIR BECAUSE HE

ASKED ME, LIKE--

BECAUSE HE NOTICED MY
WRITING WAS VERY POETIC,

AND HE SAW ME ATTENDING
AND SEEING PETER PERFORM,

AND HE ASKED ME.

SO THAT'S HOW I MET HIM.

INTERVIEWER: [INDISTINCT]

FIRST ASL POETRY CONFERENCE.
[INDISTINCT]

DID IT TAKE PLACE IN
THE PANARA THEATRE?

INTERVIEWER: YES.

YES. YEAH, I
WENT TO SEE THAT.

THE PANELIST DISCUSSION
WITH ALAN MAY

AND PETER COOK.

VALLI. YEAH, I REMEMBER.

THAT WAS GREAT, WONDERFUL.

INTERVIEWER: IT WAS IN
THE PANARA BUILDING.

YEAH. I WAS IN
THE AUDIENCE WATCHING IT.

INTERVIEWER: DO YOU
HAVE FAVORITE POETS?

WELL, HEARING POETS--
PATTI SMITH OF COURSE.

I REALLY LIKE PATTI SMITH.

I ALSO LIKE, UM...

HAD THAT ONE POEM--

I REALLY LIKE RIMBAUD,
ARTHUR RIMBAUD,

BAUDELAIRE, AND ROBERT BLAKE.

I LOVE THEM.

REALLY INFLUENCED
PATTI, INFLUENCED ME.

MAKES SENSE.

THE STYLE, THE RADICALISM
IN THE POEM.

RIMBAUD WAS VERY
RADICAL AT THE TIME.

HIS WORK VERY EXPERIMENTAL.

INTERVIEWER: DO YOU
SEE IT IN HIS STYLE?

THE STYLE, THE WORDS,
THE PLAYING WITH WORDS.

IT'S A ROCK OR A PUNK
KIND OF AVANT-GARDISM.

RIMBAUD WAS A VERY BIG
INFLUENCE TO A LOT TODAY.

DEAF POETS--I LOVE
PETER COOK'S WORK.

I'VE SEEN HIM
SEVERAL TIMES.

EVEN A FEW YEARS AGO,
HE SHOWED UP AT U OF R.

I STILL ENJOY
HIS WORK A LOT,

AND I LIKE
DEBBIE RENNIE'S WORK.

EVEN THOUGH IT
WASN'T WORK LIKE NOW,

BUT BACK IN THE EIGHTIES,
THERE WERE A LOT

OF FUNNY THINGS.

MOSTLY POLITICAL
OR JUST TOUGH,

SOME REAL HUMOROUS LIKE
"I RAPE CHOCOLATE,"

WHICH IS--I'LL NEVER
FORGET THAT POEM.

SO FUNNY. HA HA!

INTERVIEWER: HA HA HA!

SO THOSE ARE TWO
POETS I REALLY LIKE.

CLAYTON VALLI--HIS STYLE
ISN'T MY TASTE REALLY,

BUT HIS MOVEMENT, THE
LOCATION, ASL LOCATION WAS

BEAUTIFULLY DONE,
AND I DON'T KNOW.

HIS IDEA OF, LIKE,
THE 3 SEASONS--4 SEASONS,

I JUST LOVE THAT.

PAT GRAYBILL--I LOVE
HIS WORK, ESPECIALLY

THE SHUTTLE EXPLOSION
AND KENNEDY OR WHATEVER.

I LIKE THE LOCATION--UP
THERE, DOWN HERE.

IT JUST--AMAZING.

INTERVIEWER: ELLA?

YEAH. ELLA--I
LIKE HER WORK.

IT DOESN'T HIT
ME MUCH REALLY,

BUT ONE IS VERY HUMOROUS
ABOUT THE CLASSROOM

AND THE UFO.

OOH, OOH, OOH!

IT WAS REALLY FUNNY.

I FORGOT THE NAME
OF THAT POEM,

BUT IT'S HILARIOUS.

INTERVIEWER: SHE
MOCKS THE TEACHER.

RIGHT. AND SHE WOULD
ROLL THE UFO LIKE THIS.

I THINK THAT--I LIKE
THAT SCI-FI ASPECT OF IT.

THAT'S PRETTY MUCH LIKE
MY "CYBORG DRAG QUEEN."

I LOVE SCI-FI STUFF AND
SCI-FI IMAGERY, CYBERNETIC

PUNK THING, YOU KNOW?

THAT'S WHAT I LIKE.

IT WAS SO FUNNY,

AND IT WAS ALSO
SPACEY STUFF.

I DON'T KNOW. I ENJOY THAT.

THE FIRST PETER COOK,
DEBBIE RENNIE,

AND PAT GRAYBILL--GREAT.

INTERVIEWER: DO YOU HAVE
ONE THING YOU REMEMBER

ABOUT THE WORK
OF EITHER PETER COOK

OR DEBBIE RENNIE?

OH. DEBBIE RENNIE--
I REALLY LIKED

"I RAPE CHOCOLATE," YEAH.

[INDISTINCT]

NOT "BOYCOTT VEAL." OOH.

PETER COOK--SO
MANY OF THEM.

LIKE, I CAN'T THINK
OF ONE I LIKE, BUT--

INTERVIEWER: DO YOU HAVE
A FAVORITE POEM?

FAVORITE POEM? NOT REALLY.

I LIKE "THE BALLAD OF
A BAD BOY" BY PATTI SMITH.

HER WRITING--CHANGED
HERSELF TO A BOY DRIVING

A CAR, WRECKING A CAR.

IT'S REALLY
INTERESTING, RIGHT?

GAVE THAT--ASSIGNED IT
TO STUDENTS

FOR LITERATURE CLASS,

AND THE STUDENTS
WERE PUZZLED.

IT'S REALLY FUNNY,

AND IT'S A LITERARY TERM
ABOUT A PERSON CHANGING

INTO WHO THEY REALLY ARE.

I CAN'T REMEMBER THE
WORD, THE LITERARY WORD

FOR THAT,
BUT THAT WAS A NICE POEM,

SO THERE'S A LOT
OF THOSE POEMS,

BUT I CAN'T
PICK ONE REALLY.

INTERVIEWER: JUST ANYTHING
THAT COMES TO MIND.

THAT PATTI SMITH POEM
REALLY SHE SUNG IT, SHE

SPOKE IT IN ONE OF HER
SONGS IN THE BEGINNING

OF THE "LIVE CONCERT"
ON HER "EASTER" ALBUM,

"I'M AN AMERICAN ARTIST,
AND I HAVE NO GUILT."

I LOVE THAT PHRASE.
IT'S TRUE.

SHOULD NOT BE ASHAMED
TO BE AN ARTIST.

"I'M AN AMERICAN ARTIST,
AND I HAVE NO GUILT."

I LIKE THAT PHRASE.

[INDISTINCT]

I'M PLAYING WITH
THE PAST AND FUTURE. YEAH.

INTERVIEWER: HA HA HA!
I WAS EXPECTING--

[INDISTINCT]

INTERVIEWER: YEAH.

YEAH.

INTERVIEWER:
YOUR VISUAL ART--

WHAT INFLUENCED
YOUR VISUAL ART?

WHEN I WAS TAKING
ART HISTORY AS AN UNDERGRADUATE

STUDENT, I DISCOVERED
MARCEL DUCHAMP,

FRANCIS PICABIA, FUTURISTS,
SURREALISM MOVEMENT.

THEY WERE FOCUSED ON
TECHNOLOGY AND AVAILABLE

TECHNOLOGY AT THAT TIME.

NOT BE NOW--NOT
GONNA BE ABLE TO--

I'M SURE THOSE ARTISTS WOULD
BE FLIPPED OUT TO SEE

WHAT THEY'D SEE NOW,

AND I'M SURE THEY WOULD
LOVE IT BECAUSE THEY WERE

NOT REAL AT THAT TIME.

THERE WAS NO SOCIAL
COMPUTER AT THAT TIME,

IN THE 1920s, 1900s,

BUT THEY DID A LOT OF
CINEMATIC EXPERIMENTATION

WITH CINEMATIC THINGS,
CINEMA, FILM, YOU KNOW.

MARCEL DUCHAMP FOCUSED ON
FOUND OBJECTS AND PUT IT

ALL TOGETHER.

THE ARTWORK BEHIND ME LIKE
THAT, IT HAS PLEXIGLAS,

PAINTED ON PLEXIGLAS,
COMPUTER-GENERATED IMAGERY

PRINTED OUT ON TRANSPARENT
PAPER, PUT IT ON THE PLEXIGLAS,

SEE THE LIGHT
GO THROUGH IT.

ATTACH BOLTS AND THEN
DRILL IT INTO WOOD.

THE PAINTING WILL INVOLVE
AND A COMPUTER-GENERATED

IMAGE OF THE SMOKESTACK.

IF YOU DON'T NOTICE
IT ALL BEHIND ME,

BUT IT HAS A SMOKESTACK
WITH SMOKE COMING OUT

AND ALL THAT STUFF,

AND MARCEL DUCHAMP DID THAT WITH
"THE BACHELOR AND THE BRIDE"

AND--I CAN'T REMEMBER,

BUT IT'S A GLASS PIECE,
A BIG PIECE OF WORK,

WHICH I DIDN'T SEE IN REAL YET.

I KNOW IT'S IN THE
PHILADELPHIA MUSEUM

OF FINE ART.

I WANT TO GO THERE,

BUT THAT'S A SIMILAR IDEA.

THE ARTWORK BEHIND ME
IS JUST PART OF IT.

IT'S ONE CLOSEUP
OF PLEXIGLAS WORK,

BUT YOU CAN'T TELL IT'S
PLEXIGLAS THERE BEHIND ME,

BUT IT IS A HUGE PIECE OF
WORK HUNG BY CHAIN AND LIT

UP WITH BLACK LIGHT BEHIND.

SO IT'S SLIGHTLY LIKE
LAURIE ANDERSON

AND [INDISTINCT],

AND ALSO BACK HISTORICALLY,
THE FUTURISTS, YEAH,

MARCEL DUCHAMP,
THAT KIND OF WORK.

INTERVIEWER: TELL ME ABOUT--

OH. ISN'T YOUR WORK NOT
CONCERNED WITH DEAF THEMES

AND CULTURE IN THE WAY
THAT SOME DEAF POETS

LIKE ELLA, VALLI,
DEBBIE SOME, PETER, PATRICK

HAVE THEMES IN ASL POEMS?

WELL, NOT TRUE.
I HAVE POEM--

LIKE "CYBORG DRAG QUEEN"
IS FOCUSED ON DEAF CULTURE.

IT HAS THE COCHLEAR ISSUE.

YEAH, AND I HAVE ONE POEM
PUBLISHED SEVERAL YEARS AGO

CALLED "BONES" ABOUT
DEAFNESS, YOU KNOW, BONES,

THE FRAGILITY OF 3 BONES
AND THE COCHLEA PROBLEM

AND HOW IT DIMINISHES THE
SOUND, THE OCEAN WAVES,

AND HOW MICRO SOFT IT IS
AND HOW BEAUTIFUL IT IS.

I HAD ONE PUBLISHED--I
CAN SEND YOU THAT.

I HAVE SAVED MY FILE.

SO I HAVE SEVERAL POEMS
FOCUSED ON DEAF ISSUES,

JUST NOT SO MANY BECAUSE I'M SO
INTERESTED IN OTHER THINGS.

I'M INTRESTED IN TECHNOLOGY
AND SCIENCE FICTION THINGS

AND STUFF LIKE THAT
AND POLITICAL, SOCIAL ISSUES,

BUT I DO HAVE SEVERAL DEAF
ISSUES LIKE "CYBORG DRAG QUEEN"

THAT ARE MIXED WITH
TECHNOLOGY, THAT SCI-FI,

THAT DEAF ISSUE OF
COCHLEAR IMPLANTS.

BUT THE OTHER ONE WAS ONLY
JUST BONES AND NO MUSIC

AND NO SCI-FI.

IT'S JUST PURE ASL, WRITTEN
ENGLISH A LITTLE BIT.

INTERVIEWER: SO IF IT
HAPPENS TO SPEAK TO ISSUES

OF DEAFNESS--

OH, NOT ALL THE TIME.
ONCE IN A WHILE.

I DO WANT TO PORTRAY THE
PROBLEM THAT PEOPLE FACE,

SOME OF MY WORK TO HAVE
STATEMENTS ABOUT,

SO IT'S NOT--

I DON'T HAVE THOUSANDS OF
POEMS ABOUT DEAFNESS ONLY.

I HAVE OTHER THINGS,

SO...

INTERVIEWER:
AND THEN [INDISTINCT].

WHAT IS POETRY?

UM, WELL, POETRY IS
PLAYING WITH WORDS

IN ENGLISH SETTING.

YOU'RE PLAYING WITH WORDS,

AND YOU COME UP WITH
METAPHORS, SIMILES, ALL

THAT STUFF, PUT IT
TOGETHER, TRY TO MAKE

AN AESTHETIC QUALITY OF
POETRY ITSELF AND HOW IT

CAN BE PRESENTED
IN SPOKEN VERSE.

WHEN IT'S GONNA BE ASL, AN
ENGLISH LANGUAGE POEM YOU

CAN TRANSLATE FROM ENGLISH
TO ASL TO TRY TO MAKE IT

BEAUTIFUL IN ASL OR FROM
SCRATCH ASL LINES THAT WERE

VISUAL IMAGINATIONS IN
THE HEAD, WHICH MANY DEAF

PEOPLE DO THAT IN ART.

DEAF PEOPLE DO THAT,
WHICH IS FINE,

AND GONNA BE APPROACHED
IN A PERFORMING ARTS WAY.

USE OF THE HAND AND MOTIONS
OF THE HAND AND FACIAL

EXPRESSION AND
BODY LANGUAGE.

NOT USE MY VOICE.

IT'S MOSTLY FOCUSED ON...

HAND SHAPE, CONSTANT
HAND SHAPE

AND LOCATION, CLASSIFIER,

AND ASL LINGUISTIC
CONCEPTS THAT CAN BE USED.

POETRY IS DIFFERENT THAN
JUST SIGNING ASL WHILE

YOU'RE HAVING
A CONVERSATION.

POETRY IN ASL--ASL
POETRY IS JUST--

YOU JUST PERFORM IT,

AND IT'S SIMILAR TO HOW
YOU PERFORM IN ENGLISH

PHONETICALLY AND HOW--

LIKE, PATTI SMITH PLAYS HER
VOICE WITH VOCAL ELEVATION

AND EMPHASIS AND SHOUTS, THEN
DOWN AND PLAYING WITH WORDS.

WELL, THE SAME IN ASL.

WE CAN EMPHASIZE
WITH ONE PUNCH

OR ONE HANDSHAKE OR JUST BE
OPERATED IN A WAY THAT'S

MORE CREATIVE THAN
JUST SPOKEN WORDS OR

CONVERSATIONAL ASL
IN A HALLWAY.

IT'S A DIFFERENT APPROACH.

SO POETRY IS PLAYING
WITH WORDS USUALLY.

INTERVIEWER: SO DIFFERENT
TECHNIQUE AND DIFFERENT

VISUAL IMAGERY, HOW YOU
PRODUCE, HOW ANALYZE, HOW

YOU MAKE IT.

POETRY IS PLAYING
WITH WORDS AND PLAYING

WITH WORDS AND PLAYING
WITH HANDS WITH ASL,

PLAYING WITH THE IMAGERY.

POETRY HAS IMAGERY,

BUT IT'S ENGLISH,
PLAYING VOCALLY,

AND IT'S PLAYING
WITH WORDS.

INTERVIEWER:
GREAT! THANK YOU!

- YOU'RE WELCOME.
- THAT'S ALL I NEED.

THANK YOU!
THAT WAS GREAT.

- THANKS!
- YOU'RE WELCOME.

"This project is supported by a Digitizing Hidden Collections grant from the Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR). The grant program is made possible by funding from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation."

Title supplied by cataloger

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