ds_0027_panarainterview_cap_01.mp4

ds_0027_panarainterview_cap_01.mp4

Interview

Panara, Robert

Panara, Robert Interviews

American Sign Language literature

Deaf, Writings of the, American

American Sign Language

Deaf Poetry

American poetry 20th century

ASL poetry

Part of a collection of interviews made for a film on ASL poetry, "The Heart of the Hydrogen Jukebox." In this interview, Deaf poet Robert Panara explains how his interest in writing poetry started when he was 15 or 16 and in high school. He continued writing poetry when he attended Gallaudet and won prizes for his work. Upon graduation from Gallaudet, he began teaching at the Fanwood School for the Deaf as an English instructor where he established a Drama Club and met Bernard Bragg as a student. Gallaudet offered him an English teaching position where he again saw his student, Bernard Bragg! Gallaudet had a literary club where they put on two-hour shows every month. Later, Patrick Graybill joined in as well. When Panara taught poetry, he tried to incorporate drama, interpretation, and ham acting to bring out the poem's message, meaning, and feeling to the students. Panara believes that "becoming the poem, or the book" is important to get students involved and interested in poetry. In 1966, the National Theater of the Deaf (NTD) was established and he taught Theatre History and Signed Poetry classes for five years. Bragg was there, and once again, they worked together. He met Dorothy Miles and they would sign poetry, following the English language but incorporating ASL and mime features. At NTID where he started in 1967, Panara wore a lot of different hats. He taught Literature on the RIT side and also taught Drama, English, and Literature at NTID. After retiring from theatre, he taught fulltime at RIT classes like Shakespeare, Modern Poetry, the American Novel, and later Deaf Studies such as Deaf Characters in Literature. The Deaf students were so enthusiastic which led to a lot of discussions. They would talk about the Deaf experience and how similar they were to the character in the story, novel or play. They also talked about whether their experiences were different. In 1969 when Panara set up the Drama Club, there were no buildings to use. They used the Webb and Ingle auditoriums and had limited rehearsal times-one week. They would do stories, poems, dances, and skits during the first half of the show while during the second half there would be a one-act play. It was like an RIT Club for the Deaf and it was successful. In the early years Congress gave NTID funding for new buildings, including the new NTID theatre which was beautiful and accessible visually. In 1976, he invited Bragg as a poet-in-residence at NTID for six months. They made videos and Bragg signed Shakespeare such as Hamlet's "To Be or Not to Be" and other works. He shares his views on "New Poetry" and notes that there are historical changes in literature and poetry, and although this is not his favorite type of poetry, he includes it in his teaching of different types of poetry. He enjoys Emily Dickinson's poetry who could say so much in a few words. T.S. Eliot said "Poetry can express itself without being understood". It is like Picasso, Dali or Henry Moore artworks, we may not understand them but can appreciate them. When Ginsberg came to NTID in 1984, it was like "Walt Whitman coming!" Panara and others gave Ginsberg examples of ASL poetry and Ginsberg gave examples of the "new poetry". He talked about the poem "Howl" and the Hydrogen Jukebox image. Graybill gave his interpretation of that phrase which was fascinating to watch. Peter Cook was there and all shook up from that image. He began his own way of signing, incorporating ASL. Cook and Rennie were doing long poems which were like ASL storytelling. Real ASL poetry is very short and works best that way such as the works of Patrick Graybill, Ella Mae Lentz, and Clayton Valli. Deaf poetry is still growing, evolving and it's an ongoing process. It's important to keep the poetry going, make the signs inspirational, and have a message so poetry is both song and eye music. Deaf poets want to contribute to the world, especially to Deaf audiences, who are their people, and their culture.

National Technical Institute for the Deaf

Rochester Institute of Technology - RIT Libraries - RIT Archive Collections

2007

2018

moving image

mp4

DVD

72 minutes

American Sign Language

English

RITDSA.0027

Sculptures in the Air: An Accessible Online Video Repository of the American Sign Language (ASL) Poetry and Literature Collections

Miriam and Kenneth Lerner ASL Poetry Collection

2018-2019 CLIR Grant-ASL Poetry and Literature

https://albert.rit.…

https://archivesspa…

New York - Rochester

Henrietta Campus

RIT Libraries makes materials from its collections available for educational and research purposes pursuant to U.S. Copyright Law. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. It is your responsibility to obtain permission from the copyright holder to publish or reproduce images in print or electronic form.

CC BY-NC-ND: Attribution NonCommercial NoDerivatives 4.0 International

>> WATCHING IT
AND I'LL KNOW WHAT...

GOOD. SOUNDS GOOD.

>> ...SO, THEN, YOU READY?
OK. GREAT.

I WANTED TO OPEN WITH

JUST TALKING ABOUT
YOUR BACKGROUND.

I KNOW YOU TAUGHT ENGLISH
FOR MANY YEARS

AND YOU LOVE POETRY
AND LITERATURE,

AND YOUR--YOU TOLD ME
IN AN EMAIL

THAT YOU ARE A TRADITIONALIST,
AND SO,

MAYBE YOU COULD EXPLAIN
WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

MY BACKGROUND IN POETRY.
I BECAME DEAF AT 10.

SO, I WAS A GOOD READER
BEFORE THAT.

I LOVED BOOKS.
SO, MY COMMAND

OF ENGLISH WAS
WELL ESTABLISHED.

WENT BACK TO THE SAME
PUBLIC SCHOOL

WHERE I HAD GONE TO
BEFORE I BECAME SICK

AFTER 6 MONTHS.

TEACHERS KNEW ME.

SO, I'D...AFTER CLASSES,

BUT I REALLY
READ MY WAY THROUGH.

ANYWAY, COMING FROM
ITALIAN FAMILY,

MY FATHER LOVED OPERA.

HE PLAYED THE GUITAR
AND THE FLUTE

AND HE HAD GOTTEN ME
SINGING ITALIAN SONGS

WHEN I WAS 3, 4 YEARS OLD.

EVERYBODY SAID I HAD
A WONDERFUL VOICE,

AND DEAF, FATHER
THROWS OUT GUITAR,

START PLAYING THE FLUTE...

I MEAN, NO MUSIC LEFT.

I GO TO SCHOOL.

GET THE BOOKS, WHEN READ,
WHEN WE HAD A LITERATURE LESSON,

AND TO READ POEMS.

FASCINATED.
THAT BECAME MY MUSIC.

>> WHY WOULD...
- SUBSTITUTE.

>> WHY DID YOU--
WHY WOULD YOU...

- RHYTHM.
>> THE RHYTHM.

AND THE RHYME.
AND I WORKED WITH

A DICTIONARY ALL THE TIME.

...BECAME NATURAL IN TIME.

WHEN I WAS 15, 16,
STARTED TO WRITE POETRY,

AND I WAS
IN HIGH SCHOOL, AGAIN,

FOLLOWING MY HEARING FRIENDS

TO A HEARING HIGH SCHOOL.

TWO POEMS PRINTED IN THE
HIGH SCHOOL LITERARY MAGAZINE.

EVERYBODY, MM, GOOD...GOOD.

LATER...

OH, I'D BE VERY ACTIVE
AT GALLAUDET.

OH, YEAH, WROTE A LOT OF POEMS.

PRIZES. SIGNED.

GRADUATED.
GOT A JOB

TEACHING ENGLISH IN THE SCHOOL
FOR THE DEAF.

BERNARD BRAGG WAS
ONE OF MY STUDENTS.

>> WHICH--
- THE NEW YORK SCHOOL

FOR THE DEAF OF FANWOOD.

OH, HE...WITH MY WAY
OF SIGNING.

AND HE'S A NATURAL ACTOR.

WILL YOU SET UP THE DRAMA CLUB?

VERY SUCCESSFUL.

I NEVER TOLD HIM
ANYTHING ABOUT ACTING.

HE WAS A NATURAL, BUT

HE DIDN'T KNOW HOW
TO READ PLAY SCRIPTS.

I TOLD HIM, "IF YOU WANT
TO BECOME ACTOR,

YOU HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO READ."

SO.

WE WORKED AFTER SCHOOL.

RRR.

THEN HE LATER ON
WENT TO GALLAUDET.

I GOT MY M.A. FROM NYU.

GALLAUDET ASKED ME
TO COME AND TEACH.

AGAIN, I TAUGHT BRAGG
AT GALLAUDET, BECAUSE...

>> WHY...?

...FRIENDS.

THEN HE STARTED TO SIGN POEMS

MORE AND MORE AND MORE.

GRADUATED. I STAYED
AT GALLAUDET.

1966, NATIONAL THEATER
FOR THE DEAF WAS ESTABLISHED.

ASKED ME TO COME TEACH
HISTORY OF THEATER

AND CLASSES IN SIGNING POETRY
FOR ACTORS.

BRAGG WAS THERE...
WE WORKED TOGETHER.

NOW DOROTHY MILES...

WE GOT TOGETHER OFTEN,
SIGNING POEMS,

THINKING...FOLLOW THE ENGLISH,
BUT ADD ASL MIME.

ANOTHER PERSON,
VERY IMPORTANT PERSON,

MY OLD FRIEND WHO WAS
WITH ME AT GALLAUDET,

MILES COHN.

OLD FRIEND.
HE WAS WITH US

IN SUMMER SCHOOL FOR THE
NATIONAL THEATER FOR THE DEAF.

SO, WE HAD A WONDERFUL TIME.

AND NTD, FIRST 5 YEARS,

WE OFTEN TOOK POEMS
ON THE TOUR.

THEY WOULD GIVE A PLAY...
A BREAK,

AND MAYBE HALF AN HOUR
OF POETRY.

LATER ON,
THEY STOPPED THAT, BUT

WENT FOR THE FIRST 5 YEARS.

>> WAS THAT POETRY
TRANSLATED POETRY FROM ENGLISH

OR SELF-GENERATED POETRY
FROM THE ACTORS?

- BOTH.
>> IT WAS BOTH.

...WROTE SOME OF OUR POEMS

AND THEY WERE USED ON THE STAGE

AND CARRIED AROUND THE WORLD.

MOST WERE TAKEN FROM BOOKS.

DEPENDING ON WHO, THE ANSWER IS

SOMETIME THEY OFTEN WENT TO...
SCHOOL, BUT YES.

ANYWAY, THAT'S GOING ON.
WELL, DURING THE YEARS

I WAS AT BOTH
FANWOOD AND GALLAUDET,

I TAUGHT ENGLISH LITERATURE
AND DRAMA.

NATURALLY, I TRIED
WITH THE CAST--STUDENTS,

TRIED MY BEST TO FOLLOW
THE PRINTED WORD

AND MAKE THEM
LEARN TO APPRECIATE

THE BEAUTY OF ENGLISH.

MILES COHN, BRAGG, MANY, MANY
YEARS OF MY TIME AT GALLAUDET,

WE ALMOST NEVER--
WE NEVER HEARD OF ASL

UNTIL STOKOE ARRIVED, 1955.

SO, WE WERE USING
A COMBINATION OF

STANDARD SIGNS,
FINGERSPELLING AND MIME.

SERVED OUR PURPOSE.

WE HAD A MONTHLY LITERARY
SOCIETY AT GALLAUDET.

WE'D GIVE PLAYS.

FOLKLORE STORIES IN SIGNS

AND POETRY RECITALS,

AND GIVE AWARD FOR THE BEST
PERSON FOR THE YEAR.

WELL, THAT WAS MY INVOLVEMENT
WITH POETRY AT THAT TIME.

AS THE YEARS PASSED,
I GOT INVOLVED

THROUGH MANY WORKSHOPS.

I BROUGHT BRAGG HERE
FOR 6 MONTHS IN 1976

AND HE WAS OUR
POET IN RESIDENCE.

MADE SEVERAL
WONDERFUL VIDEOTAPES

TO HAVE HIM HERE.

THEY WERE GREAT.

BRAGG, IT'S MARVELOUS
TO SEE HIM SIGN SHAKESPEARE.

HAMLET'S "TO BE OR NOT TO BE."

...THE POETRY
AND...OH, YEAH.

>> DO WE HAVE THOSE VIDEOS
IN THE LIBRARY, I WONDER...

SOMEPLACE THEY SHOULD BE HERE
IN THE VAULT, OH, YES.

>> WOULD YOU SAY THAT...

IF THEY DON'T HAVE IT,

I HAVE HOME COPIES.

I CAN MAKE THEM, SO,

HAVE THEM MAKE...

>> THAT'D BE WONDERFUL.
THAT'D BE GREAT.

WOULD YOU SAY THAT HIS WORK
WITH POETRY--HIS POETRY WORK WAS

LIKE HOW YOU SAID,
SOME ENGLISH WORD ORDER

AND THEN YOU ADD ASL SIGNS
AND SOME MIME.

WOULD YOU SAY IT WAS
MORE LIKE THIS THAT...

OH, STRUCTURED, YES. MOSTLY.

MOSTLY STRUCTURED...YEAH.

YOU USED THE WORD "MECHANICAL."
YES...

>> YEAH, YEAH.

WERE ANYBODY--DID ANYBODY
AT THAT TIME

TRY TO BREAK AWAY
FROM THE ENGLISH AND SAY,

"CAN WE COME UP WITH IT
IN ASL FIRST?"

DID ANYBODY EVEN THINK IT WAS
POSSIBLE TO SIGN THAT WAY?

ASL WAS NEW.

I SAID STOKOE
ARRIVED AT GALLAUDET.

I WAS THERE, 1955.

HE WAS WORKING ON
A DICTIONARY FIRST.

THEN BY 1960, HE CAME UP
WITH THE TERM ASL.

SO, THIS IS 1960.

...FROM 1940, I WAS
A STUDENT AT GALLAUDET TO 1960.

WE NEVER HEARD OF ASL.

WE WERE INVENTING THINGS.

MIME, SIGNED MIME,
FINGERSPELLING.

>> BUT...
- ...TRY ONE PERSON.

MILES COHN.

ONE NIGHT, HE POPPED UP
IN MY DORM ROOM.

SAID, "BOB, SIT DOWN.

"I WANT TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING.

"YOU KNOW, NEXT FRIDAY NIGHT
WE HAVE A LIT SOCIETY MEETING.

"IN THE POETRY SIGNING,
I'M GONNA SIGN THE POEM

"THE JABBERWOCKY.""

I SAID, "AHH.

YOU THINK THEY WILL
UNDERSTAND YOU?"

WELL, SIT DOWN AND WATCH,
WATCH...AGAIN.

...I WAS MESMERIZED.
HA HA!

FINISHED.

I STOOD UP, I SAID,
"MY GOD, THAT'S MARVELOUS.

SOMETHING OUT OF THIS WORLD."

DOESN'T MAKE MUCH SENSE,
BUT WE STILL CONNECTED,

AND...CREATIVITY WAS TERRIFIC.

BUT THAT WAS THE START.

...HE TRIED TO INFLUENCE.

...GREAT, MILES COHN.

>> YEAH...

THANK YOU.

WELL, IT'S INTERESTING YOU SAY

BEFORE STOKOE, STOKOE,

IT'S LIKE NOBODY
WAS ACKNOWLEDGING ASL

BECAUSE PEOPLE DIDN'T
LABEL THEIR LANGUAGES.

BUT I'M ASSUMING THAT
WHEN YOU WEREN'T TALKING ABOUT

POETRY OR ENGLISH LIT,

YOU WERE SIGNING
WITH EACH OTHER.

WERE YOU USING ENGLISH SIGNS
OR WERE YOU--

LIKE YOUR NATURAL
WAY OF SIGNING,

LATER THEY LABELED IT ASL?

THAT'S A WAY OF SIGNING.

>> YOUR...SO...

...FINGERSPELLING.

>> THAT WAS YOUR CONVERSATION?

AND REMEMBER, MY TIME
AT GALLAUDET,

I THINK WE HAD
A TOTAL OF 300 STUDENTS.

SO, THAT WAS VERY SELECTIVE

IN CHOOSING
WHO COULD COME IN...

AND I, READING SKILLS.

SO, YOU SEE, MANY
VERY LITERATE...

AND I STAYED LIKE THAT TILL...

>> SO, THAT IS SO INTERESTING,
BECAUSE MY UNDERSTANDING

WAS THAT PEOPLE
JUST NATURALLY, ASL,

HAD NO LABEL FOR WHAT THEY DID.

FELT THAT ENGLISH WAS BETTER

AND IN A LEARNING ENVIRONMENT

WITH POETRY, LITERATURE,
WHATEVER, HAD ENGLISH,

THEN STOKOE
CAME ALONG AND SAID,

"WHAT YOU'RE DOING
IS A REAL LANGUAGE.

"IT'S GRAMMAR, STRUCTURE,
IT'S LEGITIMATE ITSELF.

IT'S CALLED ASL."

BUT I THOUGHT THAT AT GALL--
EVERYONE ALWAYS--

ASL ALWAYS...
I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

I BELIEVE WHEN STOKOE
CONCEIVED THE TERM ASL,

HE WAS THINKING OF WHAT
WE NOW CALL ASL.

OOH, IT'S MUCH FASTER TODAY.

LIKE MODERN LIFE
ON THE FAST LANE.

SO FAST, I CANNOT STAND IT
MYSELF SOMETIME.

OOH, FAST.

EVOLVED, AND REALLY,
YOU HAVE...

IN 1980, HERE THEY HAD
DEAF POETRY FESTIVAL.

THAT'S REALLY THE BEGINNING.

OH, YES, I REMEMBER
WE WERE EVEN ARGUING

ABOUT THE TERM "POETRY."

POETRY, TO ME, INCLUDED SOUND.

SOUND. BUT THEN A GROUP,
DEAF POETS,

MANY BORN DEAF...
CALLED EYE RHYME.

OR THEY SAY USE THE WORD
"EYE MUSIC."

EYE MUSIC.

...TO ME, WHO HAD...POETRY.

AND I SAW THE CHANGES
IN ENGLISH AMERICAN POETRY.

...THROUGH SHAKESPEARE...

IN EARLY 20TH CENTURY,

THAT WAS THE NEW POETRY.

LOOK WHAT...FREE VOICE.

IT WAS A GREAT THING.

THEY WANTED TO MAKE POETRY
HEARD AND CLEAR,

LESS SENTIMENTAL.

FOCUS ON THE MAIN OBJECTIVE.

I COULD UNDERSTAND
THAT EVEN THOUGH

I DIDN'T REALLY LIKE--
SOME WAS GREAT, SOME...

BUT I TAUGHT IT.

BUT...

THEN ALLEN GINSBERG...

IT WAS LIKE WALT WHITMAN
COMING TO NTID.

>> AMAZING.
- HA HA HA!

>> SO, HE WRITE--
I WANTED TO ASK

IF YOU WERE FAMILIAR WITH HIS
POETRY BEFORE HE ARRIVED HERE.

YOU KNEW HIS WORK
BEFORE "HOWL"...

OH, YEAH.

>> DID YOU LIKE HIS WORK?

UM...

ALL THE SAME. YEAH.

I FORGOT THE NAME
OF THE OTHER ONE.

THE BEAT GENERATION.

JACK KEROUAC AND THERE WAS

AN ITALIAN POET WHO...

>> BUKOWSKI?

BUKOWSKI, YEAH, YEAH.

>> AND...DID YOU HAVE
OTHER FAVORITES IN THAT GROUP?

DID YOU LIKE OTHER ONES...?

- FAVORITES?
>> YEAH.

MM. WELL, I WOULDN'T
CALL THEM MY FAVORITES NOW.

WELL, BEFORE THAT, I REALLY
LIKED AMY--OH, NO, NO, NO.

EMILY DICKINSON.

SHE'S AT THE FRINGE
OF THE NEW POETRY.

SHE'S AMAZING.
HER COMPRESSION...

SAY SO MUCH IN A FEW WORDS.

NEW PHRASING.

NEW METAPHORS AND...

>> AND HER LAYERS
OF MEANING...MAKE,

AND IT WOULD STILL RHYME.

IT WOULD STILL RHYME, SO,
HER INHERENT--HER STRUCTURE

DIDN'T IMPEDE HER IMAGES.

THAT'S WHAT WAS
AMAZING ABOUT HER.

SOMETIMES IT'S VERY
FORMAL AND STRUCTURED

AND IT'S BEAUTIFUL...

SOMEONE WHO'S WORKED
REALLY HARD

TO GET THE WORDS THE RIGHT WAY

TO MAKE IT WORK THE FORM

THAT THE IMAGES
SUFFER A LITTLE BIT,

BUT SHE WAS AMAZING...

BOTH, SAME TIME. YEAH.

SO, GINSBERG CAME HERE,
AND I THINK THAT STAN ABRAMS

IS THE PERSON WHO
BROUGHT HIM TO RIT.

THEN JIM COHEN ASKED, "WOULD YOU
MIND COMING OVER TO HERE?"

AND I THINK THAT
HE ARRANGED THAT MEETING

WITH THIS...

COHEN WAS ONE OF
HIS STUDENTS BEFORE...

>> AND SO, DID YOU, LIKE,
GET READY BEFORE HE CAME?

DID YOU REALLY HAVE TO, LIKE,
GET READY...

NO. NO, NO.
FASCINATED.

I THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT.

HAVE A FAMOUS POET COME.

NICE OF HIM TO TAKE THE TIME,

AND ESPECIALLY TO BE WITH US.

HE WAS AT RIT
FOR THE HEARING STUDENTS

BUT TO US, WAS GREAT AT NTID.

YES. HE IMPRESSED ME.

MAYBE...MINDED, BUT...

I ASKED GOOD QUESTIONS.

...POETRY, WE
GAVE HIM EXAMPLES.

HE WANTED TO SEE
SOME OF THE NEW.

AND WHEN HE TALKED
ABOUT THAT POEM "HOWL,"

AND THAT IMAGE
OF THE EYES...BACK,

PAT GRAYBILL VOLUNTEERED,

CAME UP, GAVE HIM
HIS INTERPRETATION...

OOH!...
[LAUGHTER]

I UNDERSTAND PETER COOK
WAS SHOOK UP HIMSELF.

BECAUSE...WAY OF SIGNING
AFTER THAT.

YES, SIR.

IT'S REALLY, TO ME
WHAT COOK AND DEBBIE RENNIE DO

WITH A LONG POEM.

IT'S MORE LIKE ASL STORYTELLER.

>> I WANTED TO ASK YOU
ABOUT THAT. YEAH.

ASL POETRY IN PURE FORM

WAS SHORT POEMS WORK BEST.

PAT GRAYBILL...
I CAN SEE THAT.

BUT BOTH ARE IMPORTANT.

COURSE, I'M LONG,
NARRATIVE POEMS.

>> SO, YOU FEEL THAT WHEN
THEY GO A LITTLE BIT LONGER,

THAT BECOMES STORYTELLING...

YEAH, YEAH.
YOU LOSE THE POINT SOMETIMES.

YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.

>> WHAT IF THE POEM
GOES ON AND ON AND ON

BUT IT STILL HAS THAT
EXPERIMENTAL QUALITY?...

IF YOU HAVE A THEME. WELL...

YOU HAVE TO KEEP
THAT THEME IN MIND

AND TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING
OF THE AUDIENCE YOU HAVE TO...

SOMETIMES, THEIR EMOTIONS
OVERCOME THEM

AND GET LOST SOMETIMES. YEAH.

...

I THINK IT WAS
T.S. ELIOT WHO SAID,

"POETRY CAN EXPRESS ITSELF

WITHOUT REALLY UNDERSTANDING."

THAT'S TRUE OF MANY POEMS.

NEW POETRY.
EVEN THE OLD POETRY.

SOME OF THE OLD POETRY...
HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

>> ESPECIALLY IF IT'S LONG.

YOU HAVE TO READ IT
AGAIN AND AGAIN.

THAT'S WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT
ASL POETRY, TO ME, IS THAT

YOU SEE IT NOW THAT
WE HAVE VIDEO...

WATCH...BUT

YOU CAN'T JUST
WATCH IT ONE TIME,

ESPECIALLY WITH THE MORE
EXPERIMENTAL THINGS--

VALLI, ELLA, PETER AND KENNY.

THEIR WORK REQUIRES YOU
TO WATCH IT

AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

THEY HAVE MANY LAYERS...

IT'S INTERESTING TO SEE THEM
BUILD THE LAYERS.

THAT'S...EVOLVING STILL.

ONGOING PROCESS.

...ONE THING TO ME,

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT
DEAF POETRY,

YOU MEAN POETRY CREATED
BY THE DEAF PERSON.

WELL, IT CAN INCLUDE ASL POETRY

THAT'S ALREADY PUBLISHED.

>> I...
- BECOMES RECITATION.

WELL, SAME AS A ROCK STAR

BORROWS SONGS FROM OTHERS.

RODGERS AND HAMMERSTEIN
WRITE SONGS FOR PAY.

AND THE ACTOR LEARNS THE SONG

AND NOW UNDERSTANDS...

THE SAME THING.

YOU DON'T ALWAYS HAVE
TO WRITE YOUR OWN POEMS.

THE POINT, TO KEEP
POETRY MOVING.

BUT YOU WANT TO SIGN
INSPIRATIONAL MESSAGE...

POETRY IS BOTH STRONG
AND EYE MUSIC.

YOU WOULD BOTH SIGN AND...

>> DID YOU FEEL THAT
ASL POETRY OR...

I'VE NEVER REALLY CALLED IT
DEAF POETRY MYSELF.

I MEAN, IT FELT LIKE--

I DON'T KNOW WHAT
THAT MEANS, REALLY.

- YEAH.
>> SO, BUT SOME PEOPLE FEEL THAT

ASL POETRY SHOULD ONLY
BE CONCERNED WITH

DEAF THEMES, ABOUT DEAFNESS
OR PASSION OR DEAF EXPERIENCE,

AND THAT WHEN PEOPLE OPEN IT UP
TO OTHER THEMES,

IT STOPS BEING ASL.

IT BECOMES MORE--
SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE IF YOU'RE
USING SIGN LANGUAGE,

IF YOU'RE USING ASL, IT SHOULD
ONLY RELATE TO DEAFNESS?

FEEL THAT WAY? NO?

BECAUSE IMAGINE...
AND YOU CAN'T--

YOU HAVE TO...

YOU HAVE TO ENCOURAGE
APPRECIATION OF POETRY FIRST

BEFORE THEY REALLY START
TO WRITE OR RECITE.

I THINK ALSO, GOING BACK
TO GREEK TIMES,

LET'S, FOR EXAMPLE,
TAKE SAPPHO.

GREAT POET.

SHE OFTEN HAD SOMEONE
USE A HARP.

YOUR POETRY BECAME RHYTHMIC.

EVEN "THE ILIAD"...IN THE GREEK
LANGUAGE IS RHYTHMIC.

THEY REALLY...POEMS...HA HA HA!

WELL, LATER ON,
POETRY REALLY WAS...

BEFORE PROSE, SO,
PEOPLE LOVED IT.

AND THEY INSTEAD HAD
TRAVELING SINGERS

CALLED RHAPSODE.

IN THE GREEK,
IT MEANS A SINGER.

I KEPT IT ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT
OF POETRY APPRECIATION.

THE POETRY WAS
A WONDERFUL THING.

...WAY THROUGH MIDDLE AGES WITH

FRENCH TROUBADOURS.

BUT SOMEWHERE ALONG LINE...

SAD TO SEE THAT TODAY.

THE POETRY WE SEE IS
REALLY ROCK STAR MUSIC.

MUSIC. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.

>> I KNOW THAT ONE OF
THE THINGS THAT I LEARNED

IN MY INTERPRETER
TRAINING PROGRAM

AND THEN LATER,
IT SEEMED THAT

ONE OF THE--I DON'T KNOW
IF IT'S A MYTH,

MAYBE YOU CAN TELL ME
IF IT'S A MYTH,

THAT DEAF PEOPLE WERE--
AVOID POETRY FOR THE MOST PART,

LIKE, AVOID POETRY
BECAUSE OF THE ENGLISH,

BECAUSE MOST ASL PEOPLE
DIDN'T WANT TO--

THEY SECRETLY WISH THEY CAN'T
UNDERSTAND THE STRUCTURE.

SO, POETRY FEELS LIKE
ENGLISH THING, NOT FOR ME,

AND THAT WHEN--THE MYTH AGAIN.

'80, WHEN IT FIRST CAME,

PEOPLE LIKE PETER,
DEBBIE, ELLA, CLAYTON

WERE TRYING TO EXPERIMENT,

IT WAS LIKE SHOWING,
POETRY IS FOR YOU.

ASL PEOPLE, POETRY CHANGED
YOUR LIFE, TOO.

THE ENGLISH--YOUR LANGUAGE
CAN READ IT.

YOUR LANGUAGE
CAN BECOME POETRY.

POETRY'S NOT EQUATED
WITH ENGLISH.

THAT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING.

YES, I AGREE.
YES. YES.

I AGREE.
IT'S A GOOD WAY OF EXPLAINING

WHAT HAPPENED.

YES. AGREE.

THAT'S DEAF POETRY. YES.

...GENERATION.

NOPE, IT WAS BLOOD.

THE DEAF POETS
WOULD PICK IT UP.

AND YOU TALK ABOUT
TEACHING POETRY,

AND WOULD
EVERY STUDENT LIKE IT?

NO. I THINK THAT THROUGH YEARS.

45 YEARS OF TEACHING.

I TRIED MY BEST AT...
BEING DRAMATIC,

HAM ACTING, WHATEVER,
TO TRY TO

PRESENT THE MESSAGE,
THE MEANING OF THE POEM,

THE FEELING.

...I TRIED MY BEST.

LOOKED IN THE...
MARSHALL McLUHAN

WHEN HE WROTE HIS BOOK
"THE MEDIUM IS THE MESSAGE."

SO...WHAT...PEOPLE MUST DO IS

LET THE STUDENT BE THE POEM.

BE THE BOOK.
GET THEM INVOLVED.

SO, THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED NOW
WITH THOSE DEAF POETS.

THE NEW POETRY. YEAH.

IT'S INTERESTING.
IT'S GOOD.

>> THEY BECOME IT.
I THINK THAT'S

AN INTERESTING...

SIGNING POETRY, LIKE, FOR ME,
AS AN INTERPRETER,

WHEN I HAVE AN ASSIGNMENT
AND SOMEBODY SAYS,

"DO YOU MIND
INTERPRETING A POEM FOR ME?

"HERE IT IS,
PRACTICE FOR TWO WEEKS,

AND THEN WE PERFORM
TOGETHER," FINE.

TRANSLATE, TRANSLATE, TRANSLATE,
AND THEN WHEN I PERFORM IT,

I--IT'S LIKE CLOTHES.

I'M WEARING THE POETRY.

AND THAT, WHEN YOU SAY
THE MEDIUM IS THE MESSAGE,

OR THE MESSAGE IS--
THEY'RE THE SAME THING.

THE BODY WEARS
THE POETRY WITH ASL.

I THINK JIM COHN WROTE A BOOK--
"THE BODY POETIC,"

OR IS IT DIRKSEN BAUMAN
AT GALLAUDET, I BELIEVE.

HE WROTE A BOOK CALLED
"THE BODY POETIC."

AND YOU--YOU DON'T--

TRANSLATE THE POETRY
AND HAVE IT

ONE LANGUAGE,
SPOKEN LANGUAGE, SPOKEN...

BECOME--YEAH.

>> SO, SOMETIMES,
FOR ME AS AN INTERPRETER,

OTHER PEOPLE THERE WERE--I DON'T
CREATE MY OWN SIGN LANGUAGE,

BUT I TRANSLATE,
FIGURE OUT THE IMAGES,

ASK DOES THIS
SEEM RIGHT, FEEDBACK.

THEN I PERFORM IT AND IT'S
VERY EMOTIONAL OR VERY--

SOMETIMES, I DON'T UNDERSTAND
THE POINT, BUT I GET IT,

BOTH THROUGH ME,
AND THEN I FEEL IT.

I EXPERIENCE SOMETHING
MORE THAN JUST GOING LIKE THIS.

IT WENT LIKE THAT.

SO, THE PEOPLE WHO CREATE IT,

ASL POETRY, CREATE IT,
MUST FEEL THAT WAY, TOO.

THEY'RE WEARING--
THEY'RE WEARING POETRY CLOTHES.

[LAUGHS] IN A WAY.

AND THE BEST ACTORS,
ACTRESSES DO THAT.

THE OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCE.

THEY BECOME THE CHARACTER,

REALIZING IT'S NOT
MYSELF ANYMORE,

IT'S NOT MECHANICAL THING.

SPONTANEOUS.
BOOM. YEAH.

THAT'S WHAT I TRY TO DO,
TEACHING POETRY.

AND LIT, TOO. DRAMA.

TEACHING PLAYS.
NOTHING IMPORTANT.

...INTEREST IN
POETRY APPRECIATION, YES.

>> IT USED TO BE
PEOPLE AVOIDING POETRY.

NOW THEY'RE AVOIDING
READING, PERIOD.

THAT'S A PROBLEM.
AVOID READING AND OOH, YEAH.

>> READING OF ANY KIND...

I KNOW.
I'M WORRIED ABOUT LITERACY.

I'M WORRIED ABOUT THAT.

>> I SEE IT WITH MY CHILDREN.

TWO BOYS.
THEY DON'T WANT TO READ.

I KNOW.

>> HOW CAN I--I JUST
DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

IT'S MORE INTERESTING
THAN ANYTHING...

THERE'S WORLDS WAITING
IN A BOOK.

COME ON...

WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO?

THEY NEED--THEY NEED
ONE...CAN LIGHT A SPARK.

BUT TO ME,
IT HAPPENED TO BRAGG.

IT HAPPENED TO SOME OF
MY BEST STUDENTS...

>> THEN YOU PASS IT ON...

WHEN THAT STUFF IS HAPPENING
IN '84, '85, '86,

GINSBERG CAME.
PETER COOK.

WOW! [LAUGHS]
AND THEN DEBBIE.

OTHER POETS STARTED
PERFORMING AROUND TOWN.

DID YOU GO TO ANY OF
THE PERFORMANCES...

TWO OR 3.
TWO OR 3.

I SHOULD'VE GONE TO MORE, BUT

I WAS WRITING TWO BOOKS.

"GREAT DEAF AMERICANS."

I WAS SETTING UP TWO
NEW COURSES IN DEAF STUDIES,

SO, DOING RESEARCH.

WHAT ELSE--OH, I WAS ONE OF
3 ASSISTANT EDITORS

FOR THE GALLAUDET ENCYCLOPEDIA.

5 YEARS OF WORK.

IT WAS DURING THAT
PERIOD, SO...

>> YOU WERE THERE, TOO.
DO YOU REMEMBER...

AND IN THE...YEAH,
I WENT A FEW TIMES.

DOWN FOR WHAT--
THE SAME YOUNG BOY NOW.

FLANNERY. QUIROGA.
HE'S TRYING THAT.

GOOD FOR HIM. YEAH.

>> TRYING TO START IT UP AGAIN.

I GAVE HIM A COPY OF THE DVD

TO SHOW HIM WHAT WAS
HAPPENING BACK THEN.

AND LATER HE SHOWED UP
AND I SAID, "WHAT'D YOU THINK?"

AND HE'S LIKE..."NOW!
WANT THAT NOW!

THAT HAPPENED BACK THEN.
WHY CAN'T WE HAVE IT NOW?"

SO, HE'S LIKE, HE WANTS
THAT ENERGY OF NOW.

HE'S TRYING.
HE'S TRYING.

- RIGHT.
>> ...

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT
YOU THOUGHT YOU SAW--

PEOPLE DOING WILD THINGS?

DO YOU REMEMBER...
DID YOU LIKE IT?

DID IT MAKE SENSE TO YOU?
DID YOU UNDERSTAND IT?

WELL, I...

I KNOW ABOUT THE NEW POETRY.

THE IMPACT...HAD, SO,

MY THOUGHT, THAT IS COMING.

SAME WITH THE SIGN.

THAT FIRST TIME,
I DIDN'T AGREE,

BUT THEN LATER ON, I SAW, AHH.

THAT'S REALLY EXPRESSION.

THE IMPORTANT THING.

DOESN'T HAVE TO BE
UNDERSTOOD FULLY.

BUT STILL, WE CAN
APPRECIATE IT.

IT'S LIKE PAINTING OF...CASTLE.

BY...OF HENRY MOORE.

...WE DON'T UNDERSTAND
BUT, OOH, CAN APPRECIATE IT.

SAME THING.
>> IT'S A FEELING.

IT MEANS THAT
THERE'S A FEELING.

YOU DON'T...
- YEAH, FEELING.

>> YEAH.
SO, YOU WERE JUST--

YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T
AGREE AT THE BEGINNING.

WAS YOUR DISAGREEMENT
BECAUSE IT WASN'T FAIR?

THAT'S WHY YOU DISAGREE...

YES. I WAS SO USED TO IT.

TRY THIS.
NO SIGNS.

AND NOW...1980.

THAT'S THE TIME
BUT, YES, SIR...

YES, SIR, BEGINS TO...HA HA!

ATOM BOMB REALLY--OOH.

[LAUGHTER]

>> SO, THAT TIME,
WHEN THAT WAS HAPPENING,

IT SEEMED TO HAPPEN SAME TIME
AS DEAF IDENTITY...

BEFORE THE FIRST
GALLAUDET PRESIDENT.

SO, I'M JUST CURIOUS
IF WHEN ASL...

YOU NOTICE DEAF PRIDE,
MORE IDENTITY.

AND SO, THE POETRY HAS HAPPENED
BECAUSE OF THAT MEETING?

I DON'T KNOW.
I WISH--I WISHED I HAD...

BUT I COMPOSE IT IN POETRY FORM,
THEIR OWN POETRY,

BUT CONNECT IT WITH PROTEST.

BUT THEY TALK ABOUT
FLOWERS, THINGS...

THEY SHOULD HAVE SHOWN INTEREST

IN POLITICAL ISSUES.

THAT'S WHAT
THE BEAT GENERATION DID,

EVEN IF THEY HAD
TO START USING...

LIKE GINSBERG, IT WAS
INTERESTING WHEN HE WAS HERE.

WHEN YOU ASKED HIM
TO READ HIS POEMS...

INNOCENCE.

I THOUGHT, OH, YES,

I FEEL COMFORTABLE THAT WAY.

[LAUGHTER]

>> WELL, SOME OF THE...

I KNOW I WOULD READ ABOUT
LIVES OF POETS,

AND I READ LONGFELLOW HAD
TO WRITE POETRY SMOKING A PIPE.

ROBERT BURNS HAD TO GO
HORSEBACK RIDING

TO CONCEIVE POETRY.

BUT THE POET...EMERSON NEEDED

A ROTTEN APPLE
IN HIS DESK DRAWER

WHEN ALL...THEY HAD COOL WORKS.

>> WHAT ABOUT...
- NOT ALL, BUT SOME.

>> WHAT ABOUT YOURS?
WHAT DO YOU NEED

TO MAKE GOOD POETRY?

WELL, MY WIFE AND I LOVE DOGS.

WE ALWAYS HAD THEM
ALL TOGETHER.

7 IN OUR TIME.

OFTEN WALKING THE DOG.

I BEGIN THINK OF A POEM.

OH, I STARTED BEFORE, AT HOME

AT THE DESK,

WITH A PIPE OR A CIGARETTE.

I USED TO SMOKE BEFORE,
NOT HEAVY,

BUT I LIKED THE SMOKE.

LIKE GINSBERG.

BUT WITH THE DOG, I WALK,
AND THE FRESH AIR...

BEGIN TO COME THE WORDS.

METAPHORS.

GO HOME.

THAT'S SOMETHING...

>> DO YOU STILL WRITE NOW?

YEAH.

>> SO, THE FIRST ASL POETRY
CONFERENCE OF 1987.

'87. YES. YEAH.

>> ...ELLA, PETER...
NOT YET CALLED...THOSE 3...

ELLA...PETER...VALLI...
GRAYBILL AND...

- BRAGG.
>> ...

OH, YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.

>> ...
HE WASN'T INVITED AS A POET.

>> VALLI...AND DEBBIE.
OK, 5.

LENTZ. LENTZ.

>> YEAH, ELLA.
- YEAH, ELLA.

>> THEY CAME--IT WAS
INTERESTING BECAUSE THEY...

YEAH, YOU HAVE IT ON TAPE.

THAT'S INTERESTING.
YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.

>> ...EACH PERSON...

ESPECIALLY ABOUT...

WONDERFUL DISCUSSION...
AUDIENCE...

WHAT DID YOU THINK...THAT?
ANY--ANYTHING...

YEAH, THEY WHISTLE WHEN...

IT WAS A WHOLE WAY OF TYPING.

YOU CAN DO A BETTER JOB...

I CAN SEE THAT.
THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT

TO...ON VIDEOTAPE. YEAH.

YOU CAN STOP, PAUSE,

GO SLOW MOTION AND SEE BETTER.
YEAH.

>> WERE YOU ABLE TO PICK UP
WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT?...

ANYTHING HIT YOU
ABOUT THEIR DISCUSSION?

NO. INTERESTING HOW SOME
WRITE FOR THEMSELVES.

LIKE COOK.

BUT PEOPLE THINK
NEGATIVE...MYSELF.

SOME LIKE IT, SOME DON'T.

...I FEEL THE SAME WAY.

ELLA LENTZ IS INTERESTING.

SHE WOULD ASK,
ASK, ASK TO WRITE...POETRY.

WRITING. BUT I...

SOME I COULDN'T GET.

NOT TOO CLEAR ON THE VIDEOTAPE.

>> WELL, CLAYTON VALLI
SAID HE WAS THE FINISHED...

YEAH, THAT'S GOOD IDEA.

>> ...HE HAD TO SEE IT
A FEW TIMES

HOW TO...REMEMBER...

HE'D HAVE TO DO IT
A FEW TIMES...

BUT IT'S NICE BECAUSE...
INTERPRETER...

IT'S GOOD.

PATRICK GRAYBILL, I WAS

AN INTERPRETER FOR
THAT PERFORMANCE.

IT WAS GREAT.
HE HAD THE WORDS ALREADY.

I READ THEM.

IF I NOTICE SOMETHING...

SEEMS LIKE THIS DOESN'T FLOW.

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN?"
"WELL, WHEN I READ IT,

IT SEEMS--HOW CAN WE FIX IT?"

"GOOD GUESS.
GOOD IDEA."

SO, WE COLLABORATED.
HIS...AND I...

BUT IT WAS INTERESTING--
HE WANTED THE HEARING TO KNOW.

PETER AND KENNY, IF...

THEY HAD TO SEE A TRANSLATION.

HIS WORK, HOW KENNY VOICES IT,
NOT MUCH.

UH-HUH, AND I WAS WONDERING.

THAT'S WHY HE'S WISE
TO DO THAT. YEAH.

>> ...HE CALLS IT
NOT INTERPRETING.

HE CALLS IT...

I SEE. YEAH...

>> IF THERE'S A HELICOPTER,
HE GOES...[IMITATING HELICOPTER]

YEAH.

>> DOESN'T HAVE TO SAY,
"HELICOPTER."

[IMITATING HELICOPTER]

AND IF SOMEONE LOOKS AROUND

AND JUMPS...SEES IT.

JUMPS WITH HIS WORD.

NOT MANY WORDS, REALLY.

HE JUST WANTS
TO TEACH THE AUDIENCE

TO UNDERSTAND THE POEM
AS THEY GO ALONG.

BEGINNING THE POEM, MORE WORDS.

THEN, BY THE END...BECAUSE
THE AUDIENCE UNDERSTANDS.

THAT'S GOOD, YEAH.

>> AND ELLA SAID,
HEARING PEOPLE, WELL...

I DO IT FOR DEAF PEOPLE.

IF THE INTERPRETER DOESN'T GET
THE WORDS RIGHT OR WHATEVER,

IT'S MY JOB, NOT YOUR JOB.

DOESN'T MATTER.
INTERESTING.

THEIR ATTITUDES.

ATTITUDES ABOUT POETRY
AND INTERPRETERS

AND THE AUDIENCE,
AND HEARING PEOPLE.

DO THEY WANT HEARING PEOPLE
TO GET IT...

OH, YES, VERY IMPORTANT.

IT'S LIKE READING A PLAY
BEFORE YOU SEE IT ON THE STAGE.

IT HELPS A LOT.
THAT'S WHY TEACHING IS EASY.

THEY ALREADY HAVE THE BOOK.

THEY ALREADY HAVE
THE POEM, THE STORY.

TEACHING REINFORCES THAT...

>> IN A WAY,
YOUR TEACHING METHOD,

AND I'VE SEEN YOU TEACH ON
VIDEOTAPE AND IN OTHER CLASSES,

WHEN YOU BEGIN,
YOU FOLLOW THE WORDS

AND THEN YOU ACT IT.

YES.

>> SO, YOU USE ENGLISH

BUT YOU ALSO ACT IT OUT.

- YES, YES.
>> YOU WERE BEING

VERY EXPERIMENTAL BEFORE.

THIS WASN'T CALLED POETRY, BUT

WHAT YOU WERE DOING WAS

TOWARDS THAT
A LITTLE BIT. YEAH.

STUDENTS--MY STUDENTS,

WHETHER THEY LIKED LIT OR NOT,

WOULD OFTEN SAY, LATER ON,
YEARS, I'D MEET THEM AGAIN,

"TELL A STORY OR POEM..."
HA HA!

>> ...THE HEART OF THE...

DID LIKE...

AND I LOVED THAT BOOK.
IT WAS LIKE, WOW...

YOU SAID THAT YOUR STUDENTS
LIKED HOW YOU SIGNED BEFORE,

AND THAT'S WHAT--DID YOU
DO THAT ALL THE TIME,

WHERE EVERYTHING...

YOU WOULD ALWAYS SWITCH
ENGLISH, ASL...

- FOR PLAYS.
>> FOR TEACHING.

FOR TEACHING. YES.

>> ...MOST OF WHAT
I'VE ALREADY ASKED YOU.

I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU
AGAIN ABOUT...

- OH, YEAH.
>> ...BECAUSE...

THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

>> I FEEL LIKE THEY'RE
MUDDY CATEGORIES IN SOME WAYS.

STORYTELLING, VERY POWERFUL
IN THE DEAF WORLD FROM WAY BACK.

THEY HAD CLUBS FOR THE DEAF.

NO CAPTIONED TV.

NO CAPTIONED MOVIES.

CLUBS FOR THE DEAF WERE A WAY
FOR FRIDAY, SATURDAY NIGHTS.

THEY WERE A WAY TO HAVE
BUSINESS MEETING.

NOW...STORYTELLING,
POEMS, SKETCH...

OFTEN PERFORMED
IN WASHINGTON, DC.

THEY...WASHINGTON HAD
SECOND OLDEST

LITERARY CLUB IN U.S.

PHILADELPHIA, STILL.

BUT NOT STRONG, BUT STILL.

WASHINGTON SECOND.

SO, GO--ASK ME TO GO.

MYSELF WILL GO SOMETIME.

FINISH EARLY.
PEOPLE. YOU WALKED AROUND.

POEM OR STORY.

AND GALLAUDET, I TOLD YOU,

THEIR MONTHLY
LITERARY MEETINGS.

THEY WERE NOT MEETINGS,
THEY WERE...

TWO HOURS.
MOSTLY STORYTELLING.

EVERYBODY LIKED THAT.

BRAGG WAS RIGHT.
I DID THAT.

DOING THAT.
LATER ON, I TAUGHT...GRAYBILL...

SO, ANYWAY,
AS WE STUDENTS GRADUATED,

...SCHOOL FOR THE DEAF,

WE WOULD...A LIT CLUB

AND DO THE SAME THING
IN THE SCHOOL,

AND THAT FIRED UP
THE STUDENTS, BECAUSE

OH, GIVE A STORY NEXT MONTH...

IT WAS NICE TO SEE THAT HAPPEN.

LATER ON, I LEFT TO TEACH
AT GALLAUDET.

BOB DAVILA TAUGHT
AT FANWOOD LATER ON.

BOB LATER ON, MAYBE
10 YEARS AFTER I LEFT FANWOOD,

HE'D STILL HAVE...

LIT SOCIETY, MAYBE, OH,
ONCE OR TWICE A YEAR.

I SAID, "THAT'S..."
BUT BY THAT TIME,

THEY HAD CAPTIONED FILMS,
CAPTIONED TV AND...

>> NICE.
- YEAH.

>> IT'S INTERESTING--
IT'S WONDERFUL

AND AT THE SAME TIME SAD THAT

AMAZING TECHNOLOGY...
DEAF CULTURE...

PEOPLE DO EXPERIENCE
EVERYTHING DIFFERENTLY...

OH, YES.

AND TODAY, MAINSTREAMING.

AND WE LOST OUR CULTURE. YEAH.

>> BUT IT'S INTERESTING--
YOU SAID THAT

PEOPLE WOULD GET TOGETHER,
EACH SCHOOL WOULD

SET UP A LITERARY SOCIETY,

AND THE LITERATURE,
THE LITERATURE WAS SIGNING

THE STORIES.

THAT WAS CALLED LIT.

WOULD IT HAVE BEEN NOW?
- NO.

>> ...IMPORTANT...RECALL
THERE'S A CANON OF DEAF LIT

THAT'S NOT WRITTEN
BECAUSE AT THAT TIME,

THERE WAS NO WAY TO--
VIDEO OR ANYTHING.

...LIT SOCIETY...

WHAT'S GOING ON AT
THE CLUB, SCHOOLS?

THE BIG THING. YEAH.

>> AND NOBODY CALLED IT--
EVERYBODY CALLED IT "LIT."

I THINK THAT'S INTERESTING
BECAUSE IT TOOK LATER

FOR EVERYBODY TO SAY, "OH,
DEAF PEOPLE HAVE LITERATURE."

THAT WAS A BIG DEBATE
AT THE ASL CONFERENCE

AND...SO, THERE'S AN ASL
POETRY CONFERENCE, '87.

'90 WAS THE FIRST
ASL LITERARY CONFERENCE HERE.

SECOND ASL LITERARY
CONFERENCE...'94?

'94, '95.

'94, '95, BUT I MISSED THAT.

>> SECOND ONE.
SO, DISCUSSIONS ABOUT

WHAT YOU--CAN YOU CALL IT LIT.

DEAF PEOPLE WERE
CALLING IT LIT WAY BACK,

AND NOW WE'RE HERE GOING,
"IS IT REALLY LITERATURE?"...

BUT THEY INCLUDE THE STORIES
ONLY, POETRY.

>> THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT
WHAT CAN GO IN...ASL...

- MIXED BAG.
>> ABC STORIES.

YEAH, ABC...
- YEAH.

>> DEAF JOKES,
YOU KNOW...JOKE,

AND HOTEL JOKE
AND THINGS THAT--

THAT'S LITERATURE, AND YEAH.

STORIES, EVERYTHING.
EVERYTHING...CALLED LITERATURE.

THAT WAS COOL.
- AND THAT'S WHAT I DID

WITH MY DRAMA CLUB.

I FORMED IT IN 1969.

WE HAD NO BUILDINGS OF OUR OWN.

I HAD TO USE WEBB AUDITORIUM.

...AND LIMITED

ONE WEEK REHEARSAL.

AND--FRIDAY, SATURDAY,
SO, THAT'S ALL.

MANY STUDENT ORGANIZATIONS.
RIT...

CAN GIVE A FULL
3-ACT PLAY. CAN.

WHAT WE DID...

ONE HALF WOULD BE STORIES.

POEMS, DANCES, SKITS, WHATEVER.

WE'RE LIKE A LIT CLUB
IN THAT SCHOOL,

A CLUB FOR THE DEAF.

A ONE-ACT PLAY.

...

AT THAT TIME, NTID
WAS YOUNG, GROWING.

100 STUDENTS.

...ONE...
IT WAS INTERESTING.

...GOT OUT THERE,
AND NOW I HAVE THEATER.

BEAUTIFUL. HAVE THE MONEY
TO HIRE PEOPLE.

...

3-ACT PLAY, SO...

BY 1977, NO MORE DRAMA CLUB

FOR 3-ACT PLAYS, YEAH, YEAH.

AND THAT'S WHY WE LOST
SOMETHING, TOO, YEAH.

YOU'RE TRYING TO REVIVE IT NOW.

THAT'S GOOD.

>> YEAH, YEAH.
WE'LL SEE

IF THE INTEREST IS THERE.

I'M CURIOUS ABOUT...

...

MAYBE...WILL START TO GIVE
A LOT OF MONEY

FOR NEW BUILDINGS,
SO WE COULD ADD STUDENTS.

THE FACULTY.
THAT WAS IN 1960.

SAME TIME, STOKOE WAS
WITH THE ASL MOVEMENT...

THAT LANGUAGE
STARTED TO TRAIN...

>> THAT'S WHAT I WANTED
TO ASK YOU ABOUT.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT--
SO, IT OPENED UP.

PEOPLE WHO BEFORE
COULDN'T GET IN

NOW...THE ENGLISH REQUIREMENT.

...YOU NOTICED THE CHANGE.

YOU HADN'T REALLY SEEN
GRASSROOTS SIGNING BEFORE?

NO. WELL, YES,
AT CLUBS FOR THE DEAF.

I WOULD GO...DEAF PEOPLE.

...BECAUSE I COME
FROM A SCHOOL.

BECAUSE THAT SCHOOL...
MAYBE 1/3 OF THE TEACHERS

GRADUATED FROM GALLAUDET.

THEY WOULD USE
A LOT OF THEIR SIGNS.

...

BUT THEY STILL HAD THEIR OWN
ASL, YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.

THE CLUB.

WHEN CAPTIONED FILMS,
CAPTIONED TV POPPED UP...

>> I KNOW I WORKED AT...
FROM '81 TO '83.

THAT'S WHEN THE TV PROGRAM
"DYNASTY," "DYNASTY"...

- YES, YES.
>> THEY HAD DEAF SORORITIES,

BECAUSE THEY HAD, LIKE,
WHATEVER NIGHT,

THURSDAY NIGHT, WEDNESDAY NIGHT,
"DYNASTY" NIGHT,

SO, THEY ALL WOULD
WATCH IT, BECAUSE

IT WAS JUST STARTING.

JUST STARTED THAT YEAR.

'83 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

THEY STARTED CAPTIONING.

IT WAS LIKE MOVIES ON THE WALL

...ORDER THE MOVIES.

...BUT INSTEAD, THE CAPTIONS...

NOT EVERYONE COULD AFFORD
TO BUY A DECODER MACHINE.

WHO HAS--I HAVE ONE...YEAH.

- RIGHT.
>> EVERYONE HAS INDIVIDUAL...

SO...QUESTION...

CAN YOU THINK OF ANYTHING
YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT...?

JUST HOPE THAT WHAT
PETER COOK IS DOING

...THE MOST ACTIVE.

...I READ ABOUT IN
SCHOOL PUBLICATIONS.

AFTER HE'S THERE, ONE DAY
OR 3 DAYS OR ONE WEEK,

POET IN RESIDENCE,

...ACCEPTING TO CARRY ON, FINE,

OR THE TEACHERS
BRIGHT ENOUGH TO

ADD TO WHAT HE IS TRYING TO DO.

...

THAT'S IT. YEAH.

>> ...

YEAH, AND I USED TO GO...

>> ANYWAY, SINCE '99...

OH, THAT'S GOOD TO KNOW.

...GOOD.

>> IN EMAIL.
THEIR TOPIC THIS YEAR...

OH. THAT'S INTERESTING.

>> ...STUDENTS
ARE DIFFERENT THAN

8 YEARS AGO, THE LAST TIME...

I'M PLANNING TO GO
AND PRESENT ABOUT THIS TOPIC,

AND I...

A CLEAN HOUSE.
I WANT TO SAY

...I'M ASSUMING THAT YOU SPEAK
ABOUT ENGLISH POETRY

BUT YOU HAVE NO IDEA...

OR SPEAKING OF...

WHERE'S THE...

SO, I'M GONNA BRING RESOURCES,

...EVERYTHING I CAN FIND
WHEN I'M WORKING WITH

JOAN NATURALE IN THE LIBRARY,

WHAT HE HAS, SO, LISTS...LISTS.

YOU CAN ORDER THESE VIDEOS.

YOU CAN STUDY IN YOUR CAR.

FIND OUT...THAT
I CAN GIVE TO THEM

AND SHOW EXAMPLES
OF STUDENT WORK FROM...

STUDENTS...

THAT'D BE GREAT. OOH.

AND IF YOU CAN INCLUDE
THE TAPES BY BRAGG.

HE TELLS MANY STORIES. POEMS.

...POE STORIES.

POE I LOVED.
THE POE STORIES.

VIDEOTAPE CASK OF DORADO...

...ONE FOR...

>> ...BEAUTIFUL JOB.

YOU SAID BEFORE ABOUT

YOU FELT THAT THE POEMS
SHOULD BE MORE POLITICAL.

THEY SHOULD STOP
BEING PRETTY...

NOT MORE POLITICAL BUT
THEY SHOULD INCLUDE THAT...

ESPECIALLY TOWARD
DEAF PEOPLE...

TRY AND DO WITH OUR POETRY.

THEY MAKE STATEMENT.

GET IT IN PRINT.

PRINT IT IN THE KIND
OF MAGAZINE,

SCHOOL MAGAZINE,
"DEAF LIFE," WHATEVER.

TRY, YEAH.
AT LEAST YOU HAVE IT THERE.

DOCUMENTATION OF
FUTURE RESOURCES.

[LAUGHS]

>> I KNOW THAT SOME OF
THE DESCRIPTIONS

...PETER AND DEBBIE,
THEIR POEMS...

THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT
SOUTH AMERICAN...

MISSING CHILDREN...

- POWERFUL.
>> DIFFERENT IMAGES ABOUT

...HAPPENING AROUND THE WORLD.

EARLY AUDIENCES WERE--
IT'S NOT ABOUT DEAF PEOPLE.

SO, THEY WEREN'T READY
TO, LIKE, OK,

YOUR LANGUAGE EXISTS
TO ONLY TALK ABOUT DEAFNESS.

IT'S LIKE
NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE.

THERE'S A WRITER NAMED
SHERMAN ALEXIE.

DO YOU KNOW THAT NAME?
SHERMAN ALEXIE.

HE WROTE THE STORIES
THAT THE...

OHH.

>> ...ABOUT
NATIVE AMERICAN WOMEN.

WAS THAT...

NATIVE AMERICAN...

>> WONDERFUL WRITER.

HIS WORK TENDS TO BE
NATIVE AMERICAN.

HE HAS OTHER ISSUES...BUT,

HIS CULTURE IS LIKE
DEAF CULTURE IN THAT

THEY TEND TO BE SELF-...

DEAF STORIES TALK
ABOUT DEAF PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, THEY TALK ABOUT

WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM
IN EVERYDAY LIFE.

LIKE THE HOTEL STORY, YOU KNOW.

...LIKE, THAT...
I KNOW IT'S MY LIFE.

THAT KIND OF THING.
DEAF, HA HA HA...

BECAUSE AN OPPRESSED
OR MINORITY CULTURE

HAS MANY THINGS THAT MAKE THEM
DIFFERENT THAN THE MAJORITY.

SO, THEY DO WANT TO SHOW
THEIR UNIQUENESS.

SAME WITH NATIVE AMERICANS.
THEIR HUMOR, THEIR STORIES,

THEIR BOOKS TEND TO BE
NATIVE AMERICANS.

THEY DON'T WRITE ABOUT
OTHER THINGS OUT THERE.

THEY WRITE ABOUT
THEIR COMMUNITY, THEIR CULTURE.

I SEE PARALLELS WITH THAT.
SO, IT'S INTERESTING...

THAT'S WHAT I TRY
TO DO WITH RIT.

I TAUGHT LIT IN RIT
FROM THE BEGINNING.

I WAS AT ONE CLASS.

HOW MANY DIFFERENT HATS
ARE YOU IN NTID?

BUT TEACHING...ENGLISH.

THAT ONE...I KEPT
ONE FOOT IN RIT. YEAH.

WHEN I RETIRED
FROM THE THEATER,

I TAUGHT FULL TIME.

EVERYTHING...MODERN POETRY,
AMERICAN NOVEL AND SO ON.

1970, RISE OF...WOMAN STUDIES.

BUT AFRICAN-AMERICAN STUDIES.

ASIAN-AMERICAN STUDIES.
LATIN...TIME FOR STUDIES.

SO, I STARTED
DEAF CHARACTERS IN LIT...

HARD TO FIND, BUT...

THEN I WOULD START UP A CLASS,

MAYBE 20, 25 STUDENTS.

YOU HAVE 5, 6, 7, 8
HEARING STUDENTS IN THE CLASS.

...A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS.

OFTEN, WE WOULD DISCUSS
THE DEAF EXPERIENCE.

HOW IS YOUR EXPERIENCE
SIMILAR TO

A CHARACTER IN THIS STORY,
NOVEL, OR PLAY?

...SO ON...

WAS HELPING HER OUT.

THAT'S GOOD.
SHE'S TRYING TO PUSH IT.

THAT'S GOOD.
VERY IMPORTANT.

VERY IMPORTANT, TOO,
AS OUR OWN.

>> YES.
- WELL, FINALLY THROUGH

JOAN NATURALE
AND BECKY SALMON,...

RIT LIBRARY, WM, SET UP
A DEAF STUDIES SECTION.

THIRD FLOOR. GREAT.
AHH. OOH.

I GAVE THEM 70 BOOKS.
VERY RARE.

MAYBE HALF OF THEM
OUT OF PRINT.

VIDEOTAPES.
I TOLD THEM...

SHOULD HAVE THEM ALL.

IF NOT, I'LL BE GLAD
TO GIVE THEM MINE.

MAKE COPIES.
>> ...

AND BRAGG, OOH...

HE REALLY--IT'S INTERESTING.

HE WROTE ONLY FEW POEMS
HIS OWN.

...

BUT AS INTERPRETER OF POETRY
CARRYING ON,

HE IS TOPS.

OOH, BEAUTIFUL.

AND HE CAN MAKE
THE WHOLE RANGE.

...PARENTS WERE DEAF.

HOW HE PUT IT TOGETHER
AND MAKE IT SO CLEAR.

...WONDERFUL. YEAH.

PROUD OF HIM.
OOH. YEAH.

>> ...

TOGETHER AT...FANWOOD,
I TAUGHT HIM

AGAIN AT GALLAUDET,

AND THEN LATER ON
BECOME COLLEAGUES

AT THE NATIONAL THEATER
FOR THE DEAF.

WORK TOGETHER.

>> ...
- OH...

>> ...

...

CAN'T GET OUT OF THE HOUSE
UNLESS SPECIAL VAN.

BUT HE'S STILL ACTIVE
TRANSLATING PLAYS

FOR FOLGER SHAKESPEARE THEATER.

ARENA STAGE IN WASHINGTON, DC.

HE'S CALLED A SIGN MASTER...

YEAH, YEAH.
HE'S STILL LIVING.

TODAY, I MADE SURE...HERE.

TIM McCARTY...

HE'S OK. FINE.

I SAID, "I KNOW..."

HOW ACTIVE HE IS
TRANSLATING STUFF.

AND HE FINISHED
WRITING THE BOOK.

I WANT TO SEE THAT.
IT'S COMING OUT.

YEAH, I WANT TO SEE THAT.

I GAVE HIM--
HE ASKED ME...STORIES...

HOW HE GAVE "THE JABBERWOCKY"
FOR THE FIRST TIME.

HA HA!

>> I...

YOU BETTER...YEAH.

>> ...ELLA, ELLA...

CALIFORNIA.

>> ...

THE WORLD OPENING TO HER
AND THEN...

YOU KNOW,...

- YEAH.
>> ...SO MUCH...

YEAH.

>> ...

OH, THAT'S INTERESTING...YEAH.

>> ...
- ...

BEFORE YOUR EYES.

>> BEFORE YOU'RE QUIET.

...QUIET EYES, YEAH...

>> ...WORKING AROUND THE...

U.S., UNITED STATES OF POETRY.

YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT PROJECT?

6 YEARS AGO...

POET, AND THEY INFORMED...

PBS...THEY SHOWED...

THEY HAD...THERE...

THEY'RE CALLING FROM THAT...
THE BOOK.

SO, I WAS...GINSBERG...

HE'S DOING WHAT--LIKE YOU SAID.

IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID?

- [LAUGHS]
>> AND PETER COOK.

...150...

HE SAID THAT? GREAT.

>> SAME BOOK.
SO, THAT KIND OF CLASSROOM,

GINSBERG, YOU WERE HERE
WHEN HE WAS HERE

AND YOU'RE...AND IN MY
VIDEOTAPE, TWO HOURS...

SAME ROOM.

SAME BOOK NOW.

GEE, THAT'S GREAT. YEAH.

WHAT'S THE TITLE?

>> THE UNITED STATES--
UNITED STATES OF POETRY.

PBS HAD THAT
SPECIAL PROGRAM. WOW.

>> ...TEACHING OTHER
PROGRAMS, PROGRAMS...

SO, YOU NEVER KNOW IF
IT'S IN THE TV GUIDE. YEAH.

YOU HAVE TO--
>> ...HAVE TO
FIND IT SOMEPLACE.

THE WHOLE THING.

TRY TO FIND IT...
- YEAH, YEAH.

THAT'D BE GREAT. YEAH.

>> THAT'S ALL--
- AND THAT BOOK

IS IN THAT BOOKSTORE.

>> YEAH. THEY HAVE A COPY.

I CAN GET YOU--I KNEW
ABOUT THE...

I DIDN'T KNOW...
- YEAH.

>> CAME HOME.
HEY, PETER...

[LAUGHS]

>> YOU KNOW, PETER...

THAT'S GREAT. YEAH.

>> I HAVE NO MORE TO ASK YOU...

CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING
MORE TO ASK.

YOU HAVE PLENTY...
YOU HAVE TO...

>> ...LATER, IF I THINK OF
SOMETHING, I THOUGHT

MAYBE COULD JUST EMAIL...
- OK, OK.

>> I'M NOT YET READY
TO START...YET.

I HAVE TO GET APPROVAL...

AND YOU HAD OTHERS
THAT WOULD COME.

>> YES.
- PETER COOK AND THE OTHERS.

>> ...
- ...

>> ...

- YEAH, GOOD.
>> ...

- OHH.
>> ...

- WOW.
>> ...ART AND EVERYTHING...

- TO...
>> ...ART...EVERYTHING.

MARY...ARTIST...

- WOW.
>> ...AUGUST, SO, INTERVIEW...

- AUGUST?
>> AUGUST.

- GREAT. OOH.
>> ELLA, I THINK I'LL INTERVIEW.

I HAVE TO GO
TO RIT...CONFERENCE

...IN SAN FRANCISCO.

WOULD YOU MIND IF I...
INTERVIEW IN SAN FRANCISCO.

FINE, FINE, FINE.
SO, I'LL INTERVIEW HER...

THAT'S GREAT. YEAH.

HE MAKES SOME GOOD VIDEOTAPES.

YEAH, GOOD, GOOD.

POETRY. GOOD.
REALLY GOOD.

>> ...
- YES.

>> ...

AND YEAH, WHAT YOU CALL
A PERSONA...BRAGG

HAD TO HAVE THAT...

>> VERY CLEAR...
- YEAH.

>> AND THEN CONTACT THE FICTION
FOR LIBRARY...

- YEAH.
>> THANK YOU...

- WORKED OUT GOOD FOR YOU.
>> YEAH.

- KEEP THE FLAME ALIVE.
>> YEAH. THAT'S THE GOAL.

THAT'S THE GOAL.
HA HA! THANK YOU SO--

"This project is supported by a Digitizing Hidden Collections grant from the Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR). The grant program is made possible by funding from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation."

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