ds_0027_lernerinterview_cap_01.mp4

ds_0027_lernerinterview_cap_01.mp4

Interview

Lerner, Kenny

Lerner, Kenny Interviews

American Sign Language literature

Deaf Poetry

Deaf, Writings of the, American

American poetry 20th century

American poetry 21st century

ASL poetry

Part of a collection of interviews made for a film on ASL poetry, "The Heart of the Hydrogen Jukebox." In this interview, Kenny Lerner, the hearing half of the ASL/spoken word poetry duo the Flying Words Project, discusses his work and how it fits within the ASL poetry movement.

National Technical Institute for the Deaf

Rochester Institute of Technology - RIT Libraries - RIT Archive Collections

Lerner, Miriam Nathan

2007

2018

moving image

mp4

DVD

74 minutes

American Sign Language

English

RITDSA.0027

Sculptures in the Air: An Accessible Online Video Repository of the American Sign Language (ASL) Poetry and Literature Collections

Miriam and Kenneth Lerner ASL Poetry Collection

2018-2019 CLIR Grant-ASL Poetry and Literature

https://albert.rit.…

https://archivesspa…

New York - Rochester

Henrietta Campus

RIT Libraries makes materials from its collections available for educational and research purposes pursuant to U.S. Copyright Law. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. It is your responsibility to obtain permission from the copyright holder to publish or reproduce images in print or electronic form.

CC BY-NC-ND: Attribution NonCommercial NoDerivatives 4.0 International

I GRADUATED COLLEGE,

AND I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT
WHAT TO DO WITH MY LIFE,

SO I DECIDED TO TAKE
A ROAD TRIP

AND JUST TRY TO
DECIDE WHERE I MIGHT LIVE.

I WENT TO NEW YORK CITY.

I WAS VISITING
MY COUSIN THERE.

I STAYED FOR ABOUT A WEEK,

AND THE VERY LAST NIGHT I WAS
IN TOWN MY COUSIN SAID,

"YOU ABSOLUTELY
HAVE TO GO SEE

THIS WONDERFUL PLAY ON BROADWAY
WITH ME."

I SAID, "SURE, FINE."

SO, WE WENT TO SEE "CHILDREN OF
A LESSER GOD."

AND...I JUST--[CHUCKLING] YOU
KNOW, I WAS JUST FASCINATED.

I FELT LIKE I HAD
TO LEARN SIGN.

I WAS ADDICTED FROM THE MOMENT
I SAW IT.

SO OF COURSE I DECIDED TO
GO TO GRAD SCHOOL

AT THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA.

SO I WENT TO UVA,

AND AT THAT PROGRAM, THEY DID
NOT TEACH SIGN LANGUAGE.

THEY ONLY FOLLOWED
THE ORAL METHOD

OF TEACHING DEAF CHILDREN,

WHICH PRECLUDED
THE USE OF SIGN LANGUAGE.

AND PEOPLE TOLD ME, "WELL, ALL
DEAF KIDS CAN LEARN TO TALK.

THEY CAN LIP READ, THEY CAN
HEAR A LITTLE BIT,"

ALL THIS STUFF.

AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I
WAS DOING, SO I BOUGHT IT.

BUT AS IT HAPPENED,
THERE I WAS,

AND I WAS HANGING OUT
WITH DEAF KIDS,

AND THERE WAS A DEAF
SCHOOL NEARBY,

AND I HAD TO ASSOCIATE WITH
LITTLE DEAF KIDS,

AND THERE WAS THIS ONE LITTLE
BOY WHO WAS JUST BRILLIANT.

I MEAN, HE REALLY
WAS A SMART KID.

AND I WOULD GO OUT WITH HIM AND
HIS MOM, AND WE WOULD PLAY.

WE'D HANG OUT.

HIS MOM WOULD SHOW UP AND SAY,
"HI. HOW ARE YOU?"

AND THE KID WOULD
TRY TO TALK.

YOU KNOW, HE WAS TRYING
TO SAY, "I SAW A SQUIRREL.
I SAW A SQUIRREL."

AND HE WAS JUST SAYING THIS OVER
AND OVER AGAIN.

AND THEN HE GESTURED.

"I SAW A SQUIRREL,"

SOMETHING THAT LOOKED LIKE
AN ANIMAL RUNNING AROUND.

AND I WAS JUST SO
STRUCK BY THAT.

I THOUGHT, "I'VE GOT TO LEARN
SIGN. IT MAKES MORE SENSE."

SO I DECIDED
MY PROGRAM WAS OK.

IT WAS GOOD ENOUGH.
I WAS LEARNING.

BUT I REALLY NEEDED
TO LEARN SIGN LANGUAGE.

I WAS STILL SO HUNGRY FOR IT.

I STILL WANTED THAT.

SO I'M LOOKING AROUND THE TOWN
WHERE I'M LIVING,

AND THERE WERE JUST A
FEW DEAF PEOPLE LIVED THERE,

AND THERE WAS THIS ONE OLDER
DEAF GUY

WHO MIGHT ACTUALLY
HAVE BEEN THE AGE I AM NOW,

BUT I'M CALLING HIM OLDER.

BUT HE WAS WILLING
TO SIGN WITH ME.

HIS NAME WAS JERRY GRIZZLE.

SO I WOULD GO OVER TO HIS HOUSE
ONCE A WEEK ON A REGULAR BASIS

AND JUST KIND OF SPEND SOME
TIME WITH THIS GUY.

THAT'S HOW
I LEARNED SIGN.

LATER, I WAS REALLY HANGING
OUT A LOT WITH DEAF PEOPLE

AND LEARNED IT MORE THEN.

I WAS LOOKING FOR A SCHOOL.

WELL, I NEEDED A STUDENT
TEACHING EXPERIENCE
FOR MY PROGRAM.

AND RIT/NTID HAD A
POSITION AVAILABLE, SO I WENT.

AND THAT'S WHERE I REALLY
KIND OF THREW MYSELF
INTO THE DEAF WORLD.

I WENT AND HUNG OUT WITH
DEAF STUDENTS AT THE BARS

AND PLAYED AND PARTIED DOWN.

AND REALLY, THAT'S WHERE MOST

OF MY SIGN LANGUAGE LEARNING
OCCURRED.

AND THAT WAS 1983.

IT WAS AN INTERNSHIP.

JUST A SHORT 3 OR
4-MONTH TIME PERIOD.

AND THEN THEY OFFERED ME A JOB,
WHICH WAS GREAT.

SO I ACCEPTED THE POSITION.

AND WHEN I STARTED,
I JUST WORKED PART-TIME.

I WAS TEACHING ENGLISH.

I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER EXACTLY
WHEN BIRD BRAIN GOT GOING ON.

UM, AND I CAN'T REMEMBER
EXACTLY, BUT...

MOSTLY IT WAS JUST KIND OF
HANGING OUT

AND PLAYING WITH LANGUAGE.

I GOT THIS JOB, AND...

BUT JIM COHN--AND THIS IS
HIS NAME SIGN--

IS A REALLY GOOD
FRIEND OF MINE.

AND HE CALLS ME UP ONE DAY,

AND HE SAID, UM, "I KNOW THIS
AMAZING POET,

AND HIS NAME IS
PETER COOK."

"AND HE'S GOING TO BE
PERFORMING SOON,

"AND I WANT YOU TO VOICE
FOR HIM.

ARE YOU WILLING TO DO IT?"

AND I WAS LIKE,
"I DON'T KNOW.

I MEAN, I'M NOT SURE."

AND JIM--AH, I'M NOT SAYING
THIS RIGHT.

LET ME START AGAIN.

I HAD THIS GREAT FRIEND WHEN
I FIRST STARTED OUT AT NTID,

AND HIS NAME WAS JIM COHN.

ONE DAY HE CALLED ME
AND HE SAID,

"HEY, I WANT YOU TO VOICE FOR
THIS AMAZING DEAF POET.

WILL YOU DO IT?"

AND THE PROBLEM IS,
I'M NOT AN INTERPRETER.

HE SAID, "I DON'T CARE. COME ON,
COME ON, COME ON. JUST DO IT."

AND I SAID, "WELL, I'M JUST
NOT SURE."

AND HE SAID, "WELL, OK, MAYBE
I'LL JUST FIND SOMEBODY ELSE.

THERE'S A GIRL I
KNOW WHO I COULD ASK."

AND THEN I REALIZED I DON'T
REALLY WANT

SOMEBODY ELSE TO DO IT.

"OK, FINE.
YOU GOT ME THAT WAY."

SO I MADE THE ARRANGEMENTS TO GO
AND MEET PETER AND ALL THIS,

AND I WENT TO PETER COOK'S HOUSE
ONE DAY.

KNOCK ON THE DOOR.

THE DOOR IS OPENED.

I WALKED INTO
HIS HOUSE AND HE HAD TVs.

NOT JUST ONE, 3 TVs.

FOOTBALL ON ONE,
FOOTBALL ON ANOTHER,

AND A COMMERCIAL ON THE ONE
IN THE MIDDLE.

AND THEN AFTER
THE COMMERCIAL WAS DONE,

A FOOTBALL GAME CAME ON.

IT WAS REALLY FUNNY BECAUSE
REALLY, IN RETROSPECT,

PETER'S NOT REALLY
INTO SPORTS.

BUT ANYWAY, PETER INVITED ME IN
AND WE SAT DOWN

AND PETER JUST SORT OF
SPONTANEOUSLY

PERFORMED THIS
THING FOR ME.

[LAUGHING]
I WAS MESMERIZED.

I THOUGHT, "MY GOD,
THIS IS SO AMAZING."

THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY
THAT HE EXUDED,

IT WAS JUST INCREDIBLE.

AND HOW HE WAS ABLE TO DO THAT,
I DON'T KNOW.

AND HOW WOULD
I EVER VOICE THAT?

I DON'T KNOW.

BUT ANYWAY, IT WAS JUST SUCH AN
INCREDIBLE EXPERIENCE, AND...

YOU KNOW, WE WOULD MEET FROM
TIME TO TIME,

AND WE WOULD PLAY
AROUND WITH DIFFERENT IDEAS,

AND THE SYNERGY WAS INCREDIBLE.

WE REALLY GOT EACH OTHER.

WE HAD AN INSTANTANEOUS
CONNECTION,

AND IT'S BEEN THAT WAY
EVER SINCE.

WE NEVER ACTUALLY TRIED
TO CREATED THINGS TOGETHER

OR DECIDE TO BECOME A TEAM.

IT JUST SIMPLY HAPPENED.

WE JUST CONNECTED
AND WE BECAME FRIENDS.

AND THEN THE TWO OF US
BECAME WHAT

WE CALLED CO-FRIENDS INSTEAD OF
CO-FOUNDERS.

WELL, IN THE BEGINNING, PETER
WOULD COME UP WITH THE SIGNS,

AND THEN I WOULD
JUST WATCH HIM.

AND I'D SAY, "DO IT AGAIN,
DO IT AGAIN."

NOW, OF COURSE, THIS IS BEFORE
THE DAYS OF HAVING VIDEO,

SO HE HAD TO PERFORM THINGS FOR
ME OVER AND OVER AGAIN,

WHICH DROVE HIM CRAZY.

IT WAS VERY FRUSTRATING.
IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT,

BECAUSE I'M TRYING TO MATCH HIS
STYLE AND HIS TIMING

AND THE MOVEMENTS AND ALL THESE
DIFFERENT ELEMENTS,

AND HOW AM
I AM GONNA GET A VOICE--

A VOCAL RENDITION TO BE IN SYNC
WITH HIM?

SOMETIMES HE WOULD GIVE ME
SOME WORDS,

AND THEN WE WOULD TALK ABOUT THE
WORDS THAT HE'D CHOSEN.

BUT REALLY, WHAT HAPPENED OVER
THE COURSE OF TIME

WAS THAT IT BECAME THIS
SORT OF PROCESS

WHERE I MIGHT
SUGGEST IMAGES TO HIM

AND HE WOULD SUGGEST
WORDS TO ME,

AND OUR WORK BECAME MELDED
TOGETHER IN THAT PARTICULAR WAY.

THERE WAS NOBODY ELSE TO ASK.

THERE WAS NOBODY TO ASK ADVICE
FROM AT THAT TIME.

NOBODY HAD EVER SEEN THIS
PROCESS BEFORE,

ANYBODY DOING IT.

I WOULD THINK REALLY HARD
ABOUT HOW TO VOICE

THESE IMAGES THAT
WERE COMING MY WAY.

AND I FELT VERY STRONGLY
THAT THESE ARE PICTURES
PETER'S CREATING,

AND I'M NOT
THE ARTIST, HE IS.

THE ART IS HIM,
AND THE PICTURES ARE HIM.

THAT'S THE ART FORM
THAT WE'RE PUTTING OUT THERE.

SO I HAD TO FIGURE OUT THE WAY
TO FIND WORDS

THAT WOULD SOMEHOW
SUPPORT WHAT HE WAS DOING

SO THAT THE HEARING PEOPLE WOULD
BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND IT.

I WANTED THE HEARING PEOPLE
TO WATCH HIM

AND NOT NECESSARILY PUT THE
FOCUS ON MY WORDS AND ON ME.

I WANTED THEM TO TAKE IN
WHAT PETER WAS DOING

AND THE WHOLE TRAJECTORY OF
THE POEM VISUALLY,

NOT BE DISTRACTED BY
MY WORDS.

WELL, IN THE BEGINNING
THE INTERPRETERS WERE
REALLY MAD AT ME,

AND THEY JUST CRITICIZED
THE HECK OUT OF ME.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS
WAS, LIKE,

WELL, INTERPRETERS ARE
TRAINED--

THEY VOICE EVERY SINGLE THEY
SEE. THEY HAVE TO.

THAT'S HOW THEY'RE TRAINED.

BUT I WOULD JUST THROW IN A WORD
HERE OR THERE,

JUST SORT OF A CUE.

SOMETIMES PETER WOULD--
YOU KNOW, IF HE WAS LIKE

SHOWING SOMEBODY COCKING A GUN
OR A RIFLE OR WHATEVER,

I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE I HAD
TO VOICE THAT.

IT WAS OBVIOUS, SO I WOULD STAY
SILENT FOR THOSE PARTS.

OR IF THERE ARE TREES RUSTLING
IN THE WIND

AND A PERSON IS RUNNING
THROUGH THE WOODS

AND STEALTHILY GOING AROUND
THE TRUNKS OF THE TREES,

I WOULD JUST SAY THERE'S
A PERSON IN THE WOODS,

AND THEN MY VOICE WOULD JUST
FADE OUT COMPLETELY

AFTER I'VE BEEN GIVING
A FEW CUES

SO THAT THE HEARING
AUDIENCE WOULD BE ABLE

TO JUST SEE THIS UNFOLD.

A PERSON LOOKING FROM BEHIND
A TREE,

THEY CAN UNDERSTAND THAT.

SO IN THE BEGINNING,
INTERPRETERS REALLY TOOK ISSUE

WITH ME AND MY METHOD.

AND AFTER A WHILE, I THINK THEY
ACCEPTED WHO I WAS,

BUT, BOY, WAS IT TOUGH
IN THE BEGINNING.

AND ALSO, A LOT OF DEAF PEOPLE
WERE PRETTY UPSET WITH ME.

PETER AND I WERE REALLY
GOOD FRIENDS,

AND WE WERE CREATING
THINGS TOGETHER.

AND THAT'S JUST WHO WE WERE.

BUT DEAF FOLKS WOULD
GET ANNOYED BECAUSE

THEY FELT LIKE A HEARING PERSON
SHOULD NOT

BE CREATING WITH
A DEAF PERSON.

A LOT OF PEOPLE
WERE AFRAID THAT, ME--

OR I AS A HEARING PERSON
WOULD CO-OPT

THE PROCESS OR TAKE OVER,
WHATEVER,

AND OPPRESS
PETER AND WHAT HAVE YOU.

BUT, I MEAN, HONESTLY, WE WERE
JUST FRIENDS.

WE WEREN'T EVEN THINKING ABOUT
ONE OF US BEING DEAF

OR ONE OF US BEING HEARING.

WE WERE JUST HAVING FUN AND
BEING CREATIVE TOGETHER

AND THINGS WERE
WORKING OUT HUNKY-DORY FOR US.

I MEAN, IF ANYONE WAS TO WATCH
PETER COOK

AND REALLY KNOW HIM
VERY WELL,

YOU'D REALIZE YOU
CAN'T FORCE THAT GUY

TO DO MUCH OF ANYTHING.

I THINK ALSO A PROBLEM WAS THAT
A LOT OF INTERPRETERS

FELT THAT I WAS PRESENTING
MYSELF AS AN INTERPRETER,

BUT I'M NOT AN INTERPRETER.

I NEVER LEARNED THE INTERPRETING
PROCESS OR THAT SKILL.

I WOULD NOT KNOW HOW.

I DON'T POSSESS THAT
ALACRITY.

YOU KNOW, I'M REALLY
GREAT AS A VOCAL INTERPRETER

FOR PETER COOK, AND WE CREATE
THESE PIECES TOGETHER.

AND SO I'M NOT TRYING TO PRESENT
MYSELF AS AN INTERPRETER

OR ACT IN THE CAPACITY
OF AN INTERPRETER.

I DON'T HAVE THAT
BACKGROUND.

I JUST HAPPEN TO
KNOW THESE PIECES.

I KNOW WHAT
THIS PERSON IS DOING.

I UNDERSTAND WHAT HE'S DOING
IN TRYING TO PUT IT

OUT THERE FOR
HEARING PEOPLE,

AND THAT'S MY GOAL.

WELL, I NEVER PRETENDED TO BE
AN INTERPRETER.

I DIDN'T.
YOU KNOW, I CAN'T DO THAT.

INTERPRETERS ARE INCREDIBLE.

I CAN'T DO WHAT THEY DO.

I NEVER WOULD BE ABLE TO.

I DON'T KNOW. LET'S SEE.

I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER THE FIRST
NIGHT I MET DEBBIE RENNIE.

I CAN'T REMEMBER HOW OR WHERE
OR WHEN.

I JUST REMEMBER THAT IMMEDIATELY
WE HAD A GREAT RELATIONSHIP,

JUST THE SAME WAY
I HAD WITH PETER.

WE HAD THIS REALLY FAST
CONNECTION CREATIVELY.

AND PETER AND DEBBIE HAD THE
SAME SORT OF CREATIVE SYNERGY.

SOMETIMES THE THREE OF US WOULD
HAVE THAT,

AND WE BECAME A TEAM.

AND WE WOULD JUST PLAY
AROUND.

THAT'S THE ONLY WAY I
COULD SAY IT.

WE WERE SO
CREATIVE TOGETHER,

AND IT WAS WONDERFUL.

IF DEBBIE DIDN'T
LIKE THE IDEA

THAT I'D PUT OUT THERE,
PETER WOULD.

AND IF PETER DIDN'T LIKE MY
IDEA, MAYBE DEBBIE WOULD.

SOMETIMES I WOULD GO TO ONE,

THEY DIDN'T LIKE IT,
I'D GO TO THE OTHER,

AND THEN WE WOULD TAKE OFF.

SOMETIMES PETER AND
DEBBIE HAD SOMETHING

THAT I DIDN'T CARE FOR,
BUT THEN THEY'D SAY,

"FINE. THEN WE'LL
TAKE CARE OF THIS,"

AND THEY WOULD COME UP WITH
SOMETHING TOGETHER.

IT WAS A GREAT TEAM.
VERY FUN.

SHARE WHAT? MM.

SO LATER, THE THREE OF US WERE
LIVING IN THE SAME HOUSE.

AND THIS HOUSE SORT OF BECAME
HOT, I GUESS YOU COULD SAY,

'CAUSE YOU HAD THESE TWO AMAZING
DEAF POETS LIVING THERE,

AND THAT MEANT THAT A LOT OF
PEOPLE CAME OVER.

IT BECAME SORT OF
A CENTRAL LOCATION.

I'D COME HOME SOMETIME--I'D WALK
IN THE HOUSE,

I'D GO INTO THE KITCHEN,

AND OF COURSE, THE KITCHEN,
RIGHT?

THAT'S DEAF CENTRAL ANYWAY.

THAT'S WHERE MOST DEAF
PEOPLE HANG OUT IN THE HOUSES.

AND THE TABLE WAS COMPLETELY
SURROUNDED

BY DEAF PEOPLE
JABBERING AWAY.

AND SOMETIMES,
TO BE REALLY HONEST WITH YOU,

I'D WALK IN AND GO, "HOLY COW!
WHAT AM I DOING HERE?"

THEY'RE SO GOOD.

I MEAN, YOU'VE GOT
DEBBIE AND PETER AND--

YOU KNOW, I'M REALLY GREAT WITH
IDEAS, BUT NOT AS A SIGNER.

AND ALL THESE DEAF PEOPLE WOULD
BE IN MY KITCHEN,

AND I FELT LIKE
SUCH A NEWBIE.

I WASN'T THAT
GREAT OF A SIGNER YET.

YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES I DIDN'T
KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON.

AND I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE
LIKE, YOU KNOW,

PATRICK GRAYBILL OR WHATEVER
WOULD BE IN THERE,

PEOPLE THAT I, YOU KNOW,
BOW DOWN TO WITH RESPECT.

THEY'RE SO WELL-KNOWN.
PETER AND DEBBIE,

ALL THESE LUMINARIES.

AND I JUST FELT LIKE I SHOULD
KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT.

SO SOMETIMES I'D JUST
WOULD LOOK BACK AND FORTH

AND WATCH EVERYBODY TALKING.

IT WAS SO EXCITING.

I JUST TOOK IT ALL
IN, YOU KNOW?

REALLY, I LEARNED SO MUCH.

MY SIGN LANGUAGE SKILL
REALLY IMPROVED

JUST FROM BEING
IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

ALL THESE ASL POETS,

WATCHING HOW THEY WORKED,
HOW THEY CREATED,

AND HOW THEY EXPRESSED
THEMSELVES IN THAT LANGUAGE,

IT HELPED ME UNDERSTAND SIGN
LANGUAGE IN GENERAL

BETTER FROM BEING IN
THAT ENVIRONMENT.

IN THE BEGINNING, I VOICED
FOR BOTH OF THEM

BECAUSE THEY WERE
MY IDEAS AS WELL.

I CREATED A POEM WITH DEBBIE
CALLED "MISSING CHILDREN."

WELL, WHEN THIS POEM WAS DONE,

YOU KNOW, LIKE, IT WAS
TIME TO PERFORM IT,

AND I WANTED MY WORDS TO BE IN
SYNC WITH IT

BECAUSE IT WAS MY POEM,
TOO.

BUT DEBBIE WANTED A FEMALE
VOICE TO REPRESENT HER.

SHE REALLY FELT THAT IT
WOULD BE BETTER.

AND I, OF COURSE, WAS
FINE WITH THAT.

I MEAN, LIKE--IT'S NOT THAT SHE
DIDN'T TRUST ME.

IT WAS JUST THAT SHE
WANTED TO BE REPRESENTED
BY A FEMALE VOICE.

SHE FELT THAT WAS
A BETTER PORTRAYAL OF HER ART.

AND SO SHE ASKED DONNA KACHITES
TO VOICE FOR HER,

WHICH WAS FINE WITH ME.

AND DONNA WAS GREAT.

I MEAN, DONNA JUST DID A SUPERB
JOB VOICING FOR DEBBIE.

AND I DO
REMEMBER THIS ONE TIME...

PETER AND I WERE PERFORMING AT
THIS REALLY SMALL

COFFEEHOUSE CALLED JAZZBERRY'S.

DEBBIE INTRODUCED US,

AND SHE STOOD UP ON THE STAGE.

SHE PRETENDED TO BE PETER,

AND SHE COMPLETELY IMITATED WHO
HE WAS, HIS STYLE, EVERYTHING.

AND SHE DID EVERYTHING
PERFECTLY.

AND DONNA DID THE MOST AMAZING
JOB VOICING FOR HER.

IT WAS JUST BEAUTIFUL.

AND DEBBIE DID A BEAUTIFUL
INTRODUCTION, TOO.

IT WAS JUST SUCH
AN EXCITING TIME.

THERE WERE SO MANY SHOWS.

AND A LOT OF DEAF PEOPLE
PERFORMED AT THE TIME, TOO.

ALSO, THERE WERE A LOT OF
HEARING ARTISTS, HEARING POETS.

THERE WAS A SERIES.

NOPE, REALLY HAVE TO BACK UP.

REALLY WHAT HAPPENED WAS
JIM COHN INVITED PETER

TO BE PART OF THIS HEARING
POETRY SERIES.

AND HE NEEDED ME TO VOICE
FOR HIM,

TO SORT OF, QUOTE,
INTERPRET FOR HIM.

BUT THERE WERE A LOT OF
HEARING POETS THERE.

AND SO THEY NEEDED INTERPRETERS
FOR EACH HEARING POET

SO IF ANYBODY DEAF SHOWED UP,

THEY WOULD UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS
GOING ON, TOO.

DEAF PEOPLE WOULD
FLOCK TO THESE,

MOSTLY TO SEE
PETER OR DEBBIE,

BUT THERE WERE ALSO HEARING
PEOPLE WHO WERE

COMING TO LISTEN TO
THE HEARING POETS.

SO IT WAS REALLY FOR
EVERYBODY.

THEY SAW ALL KINDS
ON INTERPRETING.

THEY HAD VOCAL RENDITIONS.

THEY HAD INTERPRETED
HEARING POETS

SO THE DEAF PEOPLE
COULD SEE IT.

SO THEY WERE GETTING ASL,
THEY WERE GETTING ENGLISH.

IT WAS KIND OF A STRANGE TIME,
IN A WAY,

BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH
OF A MIXTURE BETWEEN
THESE TWO GROUPS.

IT WAS AN INTERESTING
TIME FOR PEOPLE

TO DEVELOP FRIENDSHIPS BETWEEN
HEARING AND DEAF.

PETER BECAME FRIENDS WITH
PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T KNOW

ANY SIGN LANGUAGE WHATSOEVER,

LIKE TODD BEERS, WHO
IS AN INCREDIBLY
CREATIVE HEARING POET.

AND HE AND PETER
BECAME FRIENDS.

BUT THE ENERGY JUST KEPT
BUILDING MORE AND MORE.

THERE WAS
A GOOD CROSS-FERTILIZATION
OF ALL THIS TALENT.

IT WAS JUST AN AMAZING TIME.

I NEVER INTERPRETED FOR ANY
HEARING POETS.

NOPE. NOPE.
I JUST WATCHED.

AND I ENJOYED MYSELF.

AND I LEARNED SO MUCH
FROM THE HEARING POETS.

BUT, YOU KNOW,
ONE INTERESTING THING IS

THAT I DON'T CONSIDER
THE WORDS

THAT I PUT OUT TO HAVE BEEN
POETRY AT THE TIME.

I MEAN, MY WORDS WERE PUT OUT
AS A SUPPORT

TO THE IMAGES THAT PETER WAS
PORTRAYING.

AND OFTEN, PETER AND I
WOULD--

YOU KNOW, WE'D BE
PLAYING AROUND AND,

YOU KNOW, I
WOULD HAVE THIS IDEA,

AND I WOULD GIVE IT TO PETER,

AND PETER WOULD TAKE THIS IDEA

AND HE WOULD CHOP IT
AND DICE IT

AND SLICE IT AND PUT IT
IN THE BLENDER

AND MAKE SOMETHING
GORGEOUS WITH IT.

AND WE'D BOTH GO, "YEAH!" AND
HIGH-5 EACH OTHER.

"WHAT AN AMAZING
PIECE OF WORK!"

AND THEN PETER WOULD SAY,

"WELL, KENNY, HOW ARE YOU GONNA
VOICE THIS?

HA HA HA HA HA."

AND I'D THINK, "OH, NO.

MY OWN IDEAS ARE BEING USED
AGAINST ME."

BUT YOU ASKED ME
SOMETHING BEFORE.

WHAT WAS IT?

UH, NO.

I DIDN'T INTERPRET FOR
HEARING POETS.

I CAN'T REMEMBER
WHAT ELSE IT WAS.

OH, THE PERSON WHO ASKED ME
THAT QUESTION IS GONE.

OH, THERE YOU ARE.

AM I BEING
CLEAR SO FAR? OK.

I WAS NEVER A POET.

I WAS MORE OF A PERFORMING
ARTIST, I WOULD SAY.

IN HIGH SCHOOL I HAD THIS
GREAT FRIEND.

HIS NAME WAS JOE GELATI.

AND THE TWO OF US WERE
ALWAYS PLAYING AROUND WITH
DIFFERENT VOICES--

VOCAL RENDITIONS OF THINGS.

AND LATER IN COLLEGE,
I HAD THIS

OTHER WONDERFUL FRIEND NAMED
JODI PRAD,

AND WE CAME UP WITH THESE
PERFORMANCE ART PIECES
ALL THE TIME.

ONE TIME WE HAD A WEDDING
CEREMONY.

THE WHOLE THING WAS
JUST A GOOF,

JUST THIS CREATED
WEDDING CEREMONY.

ALL THE IDEAS IN IT WERE
BASICALLY IMAGES,

AND JODI WOULD COME UP WITH
THE WORDS MOSTLY.

I DID COME UP
WITH SOME OF THE WORDS FOR IT.

BUT MOSTLY I CAME UP WITH,
LIKE, DIFFERENT TABLEAUS

AND THINGS THAT I WANTED.

[LAUGHING] THERE WAS ONE IMAGE
IN THE WEDDING

WHERE I HAD A FRIEND WHO HAD
REALLY LONG, BLONDE HAIR,

ALL THE WAY PAST
HIS SHOULDERS,

AND HE WAS
DRESSED LIKE JESUS.

HE EVEN HAD A CROWN OF THORNS ON
AND THIS LONG, FLOWING ROBE.

WE HAD A CROSS ASSEMBLED BEHIND
THE WEDDING COUPLE,

AND MY FRIEND GOT UP AND WAS
KIND OF HANGING

ON THE CROSS FOR THE WHOLE
CEREMONY.

I KNOW IT'S SICK.

ONE MY SICK IDEAS.

AND THEN AS THE
WEDDING PROGRESSED--

I GUESS MAYBE, YOU KNOW,
IT HAD GONE ABOUT HALFWAY
OR SOMETHING,

AND THEN ANOTHER
FRIEND CAME DOWN THE AISLE.

HE WAS WEARING A HARDHAT AND,
YOU KNOW, HE HAD, LIKE,

BIG CONSTRUCTION CLOTHES
ON AND WHAT HAVE YOU.

HE GETS TO THE END
OF THE AISLE,

TAKES OFF ALL THOSE CLOTHES,

AND UNDERNEATH HE HAS A LONG,
FLOWING ROBE,

THE SAME AS THE
GUY WHO'S PLAYING JESUS,

TAKES OFF HIS HARDHAT, HE
PUNCHES THE CLOCK

AS IF HE'S GOING ON SHIFT,

AND JESUS ON THE FIRST
SHIFT GIVES HIM THE CROWN,

COMES DOWN, AND THE B-SHIFT
JESUS CAME ON

AND GOT ON THE CROSS.

THAT WAS IN THE MIDDLE
OF THE WEDDING.

ANYWAY, YEAH,
MIGHT BE CONSIDERED SICK,

BUT I'M KIND OF
A SICK PERSON.

BUT THE POINT IS THAT
I WAS NOT A POET.

I WAS AN IMAGE KIND OF GUY.

AN IN THE EARLY EIGHTIES
WHEN THE DEAF POETS

AND THE HEARING POETS WERE JUST
STARTING THIS FUSION,

I WAS LOOKING AT THIS
AND I WAS LISTENING TO A LOT

OF THE WORDS THAT WERE
CREATING THE IMAGES

THAT THE HEARING POETS
WERE CREATING

BECAUSE THAT WAS BEAT
POETRY IN A SENSE,

ALL THESE DIFFERENT IMAGES
PUT TOGETHER.

AND I SAW THE SIGN LANGUAGE
POETS DOING IMAGES AS WELL.

AND THAT KIND OF
STARTED ME ON MY PATH

OF BEING AN IMAGE PERSON
EVEN IN SIGN LANGUAGE

AND WITH THE WORDS USED TO
SUPPORT THEM.

YEAH, IT'S INTERESTING.

ASL...

WELL, I'M NOT A GREAT SIGNER.

I WATCH ELLA AND PETER AND
PATRICK AND DEBBIE AND VALLI

AND ALL THOSE AMAZING POETS,

AND THEIR SIGN LANGUAGE
IS JUST GORGEOUS.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT
I CAN'T APPROXIMATE.

BUT WHAT I CAN DO
IS THINK IN IMAGES,

EVEN IF I
CAN'T DO THEM MYSELF.

I'M REALLY GREAT AT THINKING
IN IMAGES

AND MAKING THE LINKAGES
BETWEEN THEM.

AND I'M ALSO A
GREAT DIAGNOSTICIAN.

I'LL WATCH PETER OR DEBBIE,
AND I'LL SAY,

"OH, WHAT IF YOU JUST ADD THIS
IN THAT PART?

OR WHAT IF YOU DO A LITTLE MORE
OF THIS OR THAT?"

I CAN SEE THAT SOMETHING
ISN'T CLEAR ENOUGH

THAT THEY'RE
PUTTING OUT OR--

I MEAN, I GUESS
I'M AN ASL POET

WHO DOESN'T REALLY SIGN
THE POETRY MYSELF.

I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN,
PEOPLE CALL ME AN ASL POET,

BUT MAYBE THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT
NAME FOR ME. I DON'T KNOW.

I AM A PERSON WHO CREATES
AND PLAYS

WITH DEAF PEOPLE'S LANGUAGE,

AND I HAVE A SYNERGY WITH THEM
AND A CHEMISTRY WITH THEM.

MAYBE THAT MEANS
I'M AN ASL POET

OR MAYBE I'M STILL
A PERFORMING ARTIST.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'D CALL ME
AT THIS POINT.

YEAH, WELL, SOMETIMES
MY IDEAS ARE THINGS I
JUST GIVE TO PETER,

AND HE TAKES THEM AND
FUSSES WITH THEM,

AND THEN HE CREATES THIS
ABSOLUTELY AMAZING THING.

IT'S LIKE...

YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE A DIAMOND IN
THE ROUGH, IN A SENSE.

I GIVE HIM
THIS BIG OLD HULKING ROCK,

IMMEDIATELY HE SEES WHAT LAYS
WITHIN AND HE CHIPS AWAY

AND FINDS ALL THE FACETS

AND UNCOVERS THE SPARKLING GEM
INSIDE OF IT.

PETER CAN FIND THAT.

BIRD BRAIN SOCIETY.

IT WASN'T ALL POETRY,
ACTUALLY.

SOMETIMES IT WAS STORIES,

SOMETIMES SKITS,

JUST VERY BRIEF SKITS.

BUT THE ENTIRE FOCUS OF IT WAS
TO PLAY WITH LANGUAGE.

IT WAS TO PLAY SPECIFICALLY
WITH ASL.

AND THERE WAS NO VOICE, NO
INTERPRETER, NOTHING LIKE THAT.

IF YOU WANTED TO GO,
YOU JUST WENT.

IT WAS IN THE BASEMENT
UNDERNEATH THE DORMS AT RIT.

THERE WAS REALLY NOTHING
IN THERE,

JUST SOME BENCHES,
SOME CHAIRS.

PEOPLE WOULD TAKE TURNS
DOING THEIR THING.

AND IT WAS SO FUN,
JUST REALLY FUN.

I DIDN'T LABEL IT AS POETRY.

I DIDN'T LABEL IT
AS ANYTHING.

I WAS JUST GOING AND WATCHING
DEAF PEOPLE

DO WHATEVER THIS WAS.

AND I DID NOT ALWAYS
UNDERSTAND IT.

NO. I MEAN, SOMETIMES IT JUST
FLEW RIGHT BY ME.

BUT I ENJOYED IT ANYWAY.
I DIDN'T REALLY CARE.

I MEAN, POETRY ITSELF--

HEARING POETRY, DEAF POETRY,
IT DOESN'T MATTER.

I MEAN, I'M HEARING, AND HERE I
AM, A HEARING PERSON

AND I GO AND LISTEN TO SPOKEN
LANGUAGE POETRY.

I DON'T ALWAYS UNDERSTAND IT,
BUT I DON'T CARE,

BECAUSE I LISTEN TO IT AND LET
THE IMAGES JUST COME TO MIND,

AND THAT'S ART.

THAT'S WHAT THE MEANING OF ART
IS REALLY.

ARTISTS CREATE THESE
BEAUTIFUL CANVASES

THAT THEY PUT ON A WALL,

AND THEN A PERSON MIGHT WANDER
INTO THE MUSEUM AND LOOK AT IT,

AND THEY'LL BE REMINDED OF
SOMETHING

THAT HAPPENED WHEN
THEY WERE A CHILD,

JUST FROM LOOKING
AT THAT PAINTING.

OR MAYBE THEY LOOK AT
THE PAINTING AND THEY SAY,

"OH, THERE'S AN AIRPLANE."

THE ARTIST DIDN'T HAVE AN
AIRPLANE IN THEIR MIND AT ALL.

BUT THAT'S THE NATURE OF ART.

IT'S THE INTERPLAY BETWEEN
THE ARTIST

AND THE PIECE OF ART AND
THE AUDIENCE,

AND THE DIFFERENT
PERSPECTIVES THAT EVERYBODY
BRINGS TO THE TABLE.

I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT WE WERE
TALKING ABOUT, BUT...

OH, YEAH. BIRD BRAIN.

NOPE, I DID NOT UNDERSTAND IT.

QUITE OFTEN I GOT IT,
OTHER TIMES I DIDN'T,

BUT I REALLY DIDN'T CARE.

I JUST DIDN'T CARE 'CAUSE
I WAS HAVING SUCH A GOOD TIME

JUST TAKING IT ALL IN.

I DIDN'T THINK...

I DIDN'T THINK WHAT WE WERE
DOING WAS POETRY

OR PLAYING WITH THE LANGUAGE.

I JUST--I DON'T KNOW.
I WAS JUST HAVING FUN.

I MEAN, I WAS TRYING TO
LEARN SIGN.

AND I HAD THIS FRIEND NAMED
CHUCK STRUPPMANN.

AND LATER HE BECAME PART OF
NATIONAL THEATER OF THE DEAF.

BUT WE WERE REALLY
GOOD FRIENDS,

AND WE USED TO
HORSE AROUND WITH LANGUAGE

THE SAME WAY THAT I DID
WITH PETER.

WE CAME UP WITH STORIES
TOGETHER,

AND THEN WE WOULD
LAUGH OUR ASSES OFF,

AND THEN WE WOULD COMPLETELY
FORGET THEM AFTERWARDS.

I MET PETER.

WE CAME UP WITH ALL THESE
DIFFERENT IDEAS.

WE NEVER WROTE THEM DOWN.

WE NEVER RECORDED
THEM IN ANY WAY, SHAPE,

OR FORM, OR USED THEM IN
ANYTHING.

AND WE WOULD JUST LAUGH.

WE'D SAY,
"WHOA, THAT WAS AMAZING!

LOOK AT THAT! HUH!" AND WE'D
COMPLETELY FORGET IT.

SO, THAT WAS A TIME FOR ME
THAT WAS ALL ABOUT

LEARNING SIGN LANGUAGE
AND JUST SEEING EVERYTHING,

NOT COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDING
WHAT I WAS SEEING,

LOOKING AT ASL POETRY, ASL
STORIES, LOOKING AT ASL ITSELF,

SOMETIMES NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT
IT WAS BUT NOT CARING,

JUST ENJOYING BEING IN THIS SEA
OF LANGUAGE ALL THE TIME.

I WAS SO LUCKY TO BE AT
THAT TIME IN THAT PLACE,

SO FORTUNATE THAT PETER AND I
CONNECTED IN THE WAY WE DID.

I DON'T KNOW WHY IT HAPPENED.

NO IDEA. DEBBIE, TOO.

WHY? WHO KNOWS.

WE JUST HAD THIS CONNECTION.

AND THE BIRD BRAIN
SOCIETY REALLY GREW.

I MEAN, IT'S LIKE PATRICK'S
RENDITION

OF "THE HYDROGEN JUKEBOX."

WATCHING THE JUKEBOX EXPLODE.

IT WAS EXACTLY
THE SAME THING.

BIRD BRAIN SOCIETY GREW,

PROLIFERATED, MORE PEOPLE
JOINED,

AND THE WHOLE POETRY SCENE
JUST EXPLODED.

DEAF POETRY REALLY TOOK OFF

AND JUST CREATED THIS
AMAZING FUSION OF ENERGY.

THEN WE HAD THE DEAF POETRY
CONFERENCE.

AND THEN PETER--WELL, IT WAS
PETER'S IDEA.

LET ME GO BACK A BIT.

PETER--OK. [CHUCKLES]

SO, PETER AND DEBBIE AND I,
THE 3 OF US,

WE WERE PERFORMING
FOR $15 ONE TIME.

WE WERE AT A PLACE
HERE IN ROCHESTER

CALLED WRITERS AND BOOKS.

WHAT?

WHAT DID THEY BUY FOR $15?

WELL, THEY BOUGHT ME AND PETER
AND DEBBIE.

OH, I MISUNDERSTOOD.

WHAT DID WE BUY
WITH THE $15 WE GOT PAID?

HMM.
PROBABLY BEER.

I'M SURE I PROBABLY BOUGHT BEER
WITH IT.

BUT ANYWAY...

THE 3 OF US WERE PERFORMING
FOR OUR $15 FOR THIS EVENT,

AND IT HAPPENED TO BE A WRITER'S
CONFERENCE

THAT WE WERE HIRED
TO PERFORM FOR.

AND A MAN IN THE AUDIENCE CAME
UP TO US AFTERWARDS,

AND HE SAID, "MY
NAME IS GREGORY KOLOVAKOS,

"AND I'M FROM THE NEW YORK STATE
COUNCIL ON THE ARTS,

AND I WANT
TO GIVE YOU SOME MONEY."

AND THE 3 OF US WERE LIKE,
"OH, MY GOD! HOW GREAT IS THAT?

WOW. SURE. WE'LL TAKE IT."

AND HE CONVINCED US THAT WE
SHOULD WRITE A GRANT.

AND PETER AND I DECIDED, OK,
WE'LL FIGURE THIS OUT.

AND WE DID WRITE A GRANT.

THIS GRANT MONEY WAS
SPECIFICALLY FOR US TO TRAVEL

ACROSS NEW YORK STATE IN
DIFFERENT VENUES

AND DO SOME PERFORMANCES.

DEBBIE WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THIS
PARTICULAR ASPECT.

IT WAS JUST PETER AND ME.

SO WE TRAVELED AROUND
AND WE PERFORMED.

AND, OH, GOSH,
IT WAS SO FUN.

WE REALLY ENJOYED IT.

WE EXPERIENCED SO MUCH.
WE SAW A LOT.

WE MET WONDERFUL PEOPLE.

THAT YEAR ENDED, AND WE DECIDE
THAT WE SHOULD TRY AGAIN

FOR A GRANT
THE FOLLOWING YEAR.

SO WE SUBMITTED AGAIN.

AND THEN PETER HAD HAD THIS BEE
IN HIS BONNET FOR A WHILE.

HE WAS JUST THINKING, YOU KNOW,
WE'RE SO ISOLATED.

HERE WE ARE JUST IN
ROCHESTER.

THERE'S NOT ENOUGH
ASL POETRY IN ROCHESTER.

AND WE'VE GOT PATRICK,
WE'VE GOT DEBBIE,

WE'VE GOT ME,
PETER SAYING THIS,

BUT THAT'S NOT ENOUGH.

AND SO HE DECIDED THAT HE WANTED
TO WRITE A SECOND GRANT,

AND THIS GRANT WOULD
BE SPECIFICALLY

TO ESTABLISH A
DEAF POETRY SERIES.

AND HONESTLY, THERE WAS NOTHING
LIKE THIS HAPPENING

IN THE U.S. ANYWHERE.

SO THE NEW YORK STATE COUNCIL
ON THE ARTS

GAVE US BOTH GRANTS
THAT WE APPLIED FOR

SO THE TWO OF US COULD DO
ANOTHER 10-CITY TOUR.

AND WE ALSO HAD ENOUGH
MONEY THAT WE COULD BRING IN

PEOPLE FROM OUT OF TOWN TO COME
PERFORM IN ROCHESTER.

AND THAT WAS INCREDIBLE
INSPIRING TO SO MANY PEOPLE.

IT WAS AMAZING.

WE HAD SO MANY AMAZING DEAF
PEOPLE COME TO PERFORM,

AND WE HAD HEARING POETS COME TO
THESE PERFORMANCES

AS WELL AS DEAF PEOPLE.

SO THE AUDIENCES WERE MIXED.

LET'S SEE WHO WE BROUGHT IN.

WE BROUGHT IN MALZ, WHO
WAS INCREDIBLE.

AND WE BROUGHT IN TWO
DEAF FOLKS FROM QUEBEC--

SERGE BRIERE AND JOHANNA
BOULANGER.

JUST INCREDIBLE.

AND TERRYLENE ALSO.

ALL THESE DIFFERENT NAMES,

THESE DIFFERENT PEOPLE
CAME TO TOWN,

JUST A WHOLE HOST OF THEM.

ALL THESE DEAF PERFORMERS WOULD
COME TO ROCHESTER AND PERFORM.

AND PETER JUST, YOU KNOW, IT
SET HIM ON FIRE EVEN MORE.

AND HE'S THE ONE WHO
GOT IT GOING.

WE ALSO WANTED TO ENCOURAGE
DEAF PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY.

COME ON. COME. LOOK AT THIS.

SEE ALL THESE
DIFFERENT POETS.

IT'S NOT JUST US. IT'S NOT JUST
DEBBIE OR PATRICK OR US.

THERE'S ALL THESE DIFFERENT
STYLES OUT THERE,

DIFFERENT IDEAS, DIFFERENT WAYS
TO GO ABOUT IT

TO PUT THIS INFUSION
OF ENERGY,

SORT OF LIKE A BIG
MELTING POT

OF ALL KINDS OF
DIFFERENT DEAF PEOPLE,

STYLES,
POETRY, STORYTELLING.

AND WE WERE ALL LEARNING FROM
EACH OTHER.

THE DEAF POETRY
CONFERENCE.

LET'S SEE, WAS "BRIDGE OF"
BEFORE THAT OR AFTER THAT?

PETER AND I WERE TRAVELING
AROUND AND WE WERE PERFORMING,

BUT SOMETIMES DEBBIE WOULD JOIN
THESE PERFORMANCES,

SOMETIMES NOT.

SOMETIMES DEBBIE WOULD
PERFORM ON HER OWN

WITH DONNA AS HER VOICE.

AND THE 4 OF US WOULD OFTEN
BE TOGETHER.

AND, OF COURSE, INTO THIS MIX
YOU HAVE JIM COHN AS WELL.

JIM IN AN INCREDIBLY
ACCOMPLISHED POET,

JUST A WONDERFUL,
WONDERFUL POET.

AND WATCHING POETRY BEING
INTERPRETED

AND LISTENING TO
HIM WAS INCREDIBLE.

THE 5 OF US WERE REALLY
GOOD FRIENDS,

AND WE THOUGHT, WHY DON'T WE
KIND OF FOUND

SOME SORT OF
PERFORMANCE GROUP?

SO SOMETIMES DEBBIE AND PETER
AND I WOULD PERFORM,

SOMETIMES DONNA WOULD
JUST PERFORM.

IT WOULD BE DIFFERENT
CONFIGURATIONS

WITHIN THE GROUP OF US.

DONNA COULD INTERPRET FOR JIM'S
POETRY, OF COURSE.

HE WAS A HEARING POET
AND NEEDED AN INTERPRETER,

AND DONNA WAS SO GOOD AT
CREATING THESE IMAGES,

JUST BEAUTIFULLY BLENDED.

SO DIFFERENT COMBINATIONS OF US
IN THIS GROUP OF 5.

AND IT DIDN'T GO FOR A VERY LONG
TIME, THIS GROUP,

BUT IT WAS REALLY FUN
WHILE IT LASTED.

WELL, "BRIDGE OF..." THAT'S WHAT
WE CALLED THE GROUP

WE CAME UP WITH, "BRIDGE OF..."

"BRIDGE OF..."

THE REASON BEING THAT PETER
LOVED, LOVED

THE ENGLISH WORDS
"LEAN TO."

YOU KNOW, BACK IN THE DAY,
IF YOU'D GO CAMPING

BUT YOU DIDN'T HAPPEN
TO HAVE A TENT,

YOU WOULD FIND SOME KIND OF
SHELTER THAT

YOU COULD PUT UP
AGAINST A TREE.

AND PETER LOVED THAT
CONCEPT OF A LEAN-TO.

THAT'S HOW IT WAS EXPRESSED IN
ENGLISH, THOSE TWO WORDS.

AND HE THOUGHT, "WOW, LET'S COME
UP WITH A NAME

THAT'S SOMETHING
LIKE THAT."

AND I CAN'T
REMEMBER WHO ACTUALLY

CAME UP
WITH THOSE ACTUAL WORDS,

BUT HE WANTED SOMETHING
LIKE THAT,

SO WE HAD "BRIDGE OF"
INSTEAD OF "LEAN TO."

ANYWAY...

SO THIS GROUP, BRIDGE OF...

PERFORMED AT THE CLEARWATER
FESTIVAL,

WHICH IS A YEARLY FESTIVAL THAT
OCCURS NEAR NEW YORK CITY.

AND IT'S A GATHERING
OF STORYTELLERS, MUSICIANS,

POETS, PERFORMANCE ARTISTS
ALL OVER.

SO WE AS A GROUP WENT AND
PERFORMED THERE.

WE ALSO WENT TO THE UNIVERSITY
OF VERMONT.

WE ALSO PERFORMED IN
BINGHAMTON.

JUST A FEW VENUES,
BUT WE WERE ALL BUSY.

WE HAD OTHER PROJECTS GOING ON
INDIVIDUALLY,

SO THE GROUP WAS
SHORT-LIVED.

WHAT I WAS DOING FULL-TIME WAS
TEACHING AT NTID.

PETER WAS A
STUDENT AT THE TIME.

DEBBIE WAS STILL A STUDENT
AT THE TIME.

DONNA--OH, OK.
I SHOULD SAY THIS AGAIN.

SO I TAUGHT FULL TIME, NTID.

I TAUGHT ENGLISH.
THAT WAS MY DAY JOB.

PETER WAS A STUDENT.
DEBBIE WAS A STUDENT.

DONNA WAS AN INTERPRETER.

AND JIM...HE
WAS--IT'S INTERESTING.

I DON'T REALLY REMEMBER WHAT HIS
DAY JOB WAS BACK THEN.

THE REASON HE EVEN CAME
TO ROCHESTER

IS THAT HE WAS
LOOKING FOR ASL POETRY.

HE WAS IN SEARCH OF.

HE HIMSELF WAS
A HEARING POET,

AND HE LOVED THE
IDEA OF PLAYING WITH IMAGES

AND BEAT POETRY CONSTRUCTS.

HE WAS AN IMAGIST.

AND HE REALLY WANTED TO SEE WHAT
ASL POETRY WOULD LOOK LIKE.

HE THOUGHT, "HMM. ASL's
A PICTURE LANGUAGE.

I WONDER WHAT SIGN LANGUAGE
POETRY EVEN MEANS."

SO HE DECIDED TO HITCHHIKE ALL
THE WAY FROM COLORADO,

WHERE HE WAS LIVING AT THE TIME,
TO ROCHESTER.

HE KNEW THAT NTID
WAS HERE.

AND HE GOT HERE,
AND HE SAW SIGN LANGUAGE

ALL OVER
THE PLACE, OF COURSE.

HE WAS VERY EXCITED.

AND HE APPLIED
AND WAS ACCEPTED

TO THE INTERPRETER TRAINING
PROGRAM.

NOT TO BECOME AN INTERPRETER.

HE NEVER DID BECOME
AN INTERPRETER.

HE SIMPLY WANTED TO LEARN SIGN
LANGUAGE AS FAST AS HE COULD

SO HE COULD HUNT DOWN WHAT DEAF
POETRY LOOKED LIKE.

AND SO, IN HIS SEARCH TO
FIND IT, HE FOUND PETER COOK

AND HOGTIED HIM AND ROPED HIM
IN FOR HIS SCHEME.

AND I DON'T KNOW...

IF JIM CAME UP WITH
THE IDEA--

IT WAS HIS IDEA FOR
THE POETRY CONFERENCE.

BUT I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY
WHAT HIS JOB WAS AT THE TIME.

HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A GRAD
STUDENT AT U OF R AT THE TIME.

I'M NOT SURE.

OH, IT WAS
A REALLY CRAZY TIME.

PETER AND DEBBIE AND I WERE
CREATING THINGS TOGETHER.

BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW,

I FELT KIND OF LIKE,
"WHAT'S MY PLACE HERE?"

I MEAN, HONESTLY, I DIDN'T KNOW
WHO I WAS IN ALL OF THIS.

YOU KNOW, THIS CONFERENCE WITH
ELLA AND VALLI

AND PETER AND
DEBBIE AND PATRICK,

IT WAS INCREDIBLE.

IT WAS AN AMAZING
POETRY CONFERENCE

WITH ALL THESE ACCOMPLISHED,
WELL-KNOWN POETS AND ME.

YOU KNOW, I GUESS I WORK WITH A
COUPLE OF THEM, BUT, LIKE,

WHO AM I AND WHAT AM
I DOING HERE?

AND MAYBE I SHOULD JUST SHUT UP
AND NOT SAY ANYTHING.

I MEAN, SHOULD I JOIN
IN THE CONVERSATION?

I DON'T KNOW.

I REALLY WASN'T SURE
WHAT MY ROLE WAS IN ALL OF THAT.

SO I WAS A LITTLE SCARED.

AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT
MY ROLE WAS.

IT'S LIKE LIFE, RIGHT?

YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GONNA
GET IN A CAR

AND SOMETIMES THE CAR'S
OUT OF CONTROL

AND YOU HAVE TO JUST KIND OF
FOLLOW ALONG THE ROAD IN A CAR

THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANY BRAKES

AND HOPE EVERYTHING GOES
FOR THE BEST.

AND THAT'S
KIND OF WHAT HAPPENED.

I JUST DECIDED TO GO
WITH THE FLOW.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.

I HAD TO SEE WHERE
IT WOULD LEAD.

WHEN I LOOK BACK AT THAT
CONFERENCE,

MY MEMORY IS ONE OF
JUST ABJECT FEAR.

I WAS AFRAID I'D MAKE MISTAKES
WHEN I VOICED.

I HOPED PEOPLE LIKED
THE POEMS.

I HOPED THAT THEY
LIKED WHAT WE CREATED.

I HOPED I WOULDN'T GET
CRITICIZED TOO MUCH,

BECAUSE, HERE I AM,
A HEARING PERSON

WORKING WITH A DEAF PERSON.

ALL THIS CRITICISM
I WAS AFRAID OF.

YES, I'M NOT
AN INTERPRETER.

I DON'T VOICE ENOUGH.
I SHOULD VOICE MORE.

THE INTERPRETER ALWAYS FELT
THAT I SHOULD HAVE VOICED

MORE THAN I WAS.

AND ALSO I JUST HADN'T
YET LEARNED HOW TO
REALLY VOICE WELL.

I MEAN, I KNEW HOW, YOU
KNOW, OBVIOUSLY I WAS.

I WAS VOICING FOR
MY FRIEND, OK.

SO I KNEW THE MATERIAL.

I'M VOICING FOR POEMS THAT I
HELPED CREATE AND WORK ON.

IT'S MY OWN WORK,
SO THAT'S HELPFUL.

BUT I STILL WASN'T REALLY THAT
GOOD AT IT,

SO I NEEDED TO LEARN MORE.

YOU HAVE TO PRACTICE
EVERY DAY.

YOU HAVE TO REALLY GET INTO IT

AND DEDICATE
YOURSELF TO IT.

SO I WAS OPEN
TO A LOT OF CRITICISM,

AND I THINK SOMETIMES
IT WAS RIGHT.

IT WAS WELL-FOUNDED CRITICISM.

I DID NEED TO GET BETTER.

I DID NEED TO CHOOSE BETTER
WORDS SOMETIMES.

SOMETIMES I DIDN'T
VOICE ENOUGH.

THEY WERE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

SO, PEOPLE WHO HAD AN ISSUE WITH
ME WERE RIGHT.

AND I HAD TO LEARN.

BUT AT THE CONFERENCE,
IT WAS ALSO SO EXCITING

'CAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE CAME.

I JUST SAW SO MANY PEOPLE IN
THE AUDIENCE--

DEAF PEOPLE WHO
HAD THAT KIND OF A-HA MOMENT,

THE LIGHTS WENT ON THEIR EYES
AND WENT,

"OH, THAT'S WHAT THIS IS."

I ACTUALLY SAW THAT.

AND PETER WAS SO OVERJOYED
BY IT ALL.

DEBBIE WAS SO HAPPY.

NERVOUS, TOO, OF COURSE.

EVERYBODY WANTED TO GET
ACCEPTED, RIGHT?

THERE WERE THESE OLDER
POETS--VALLI, ELLA, AND PATRICK.

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE OLDER,
MORE WELL-ESTABLISHED.

SO PETER AND
DEBBIE WERE VERY SCARED.

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE COMING UP
WITH A NEW WAY OF DOING THINGS.

THEIR POETRY WASN'T THE SAME.

AND I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS
TRUE OR NOT,

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THESE
3 OLDER POETS THOUGHT,

BUT WE WERE WORRIED
THEY WERE LOOKING ASKANCE
AT THIS NEW FANGLED WAY

AND WHETHER THEY WOULD ACCEPT IT
AS ASL POETRY.

DEBBIE WAS SORT OF
THINKING IN HER NAÏVE WAY,

"PLEASE, PLEASE, LOVE ME.
PLEASE, LIKE MY THINGS.

PLEASE, PLEASE,
LIKE MY TALENT."

BUT I THINK
THESE OLDER POETS,

ONCE THEY SAW IT AND WRAPPED
THEIR HEAD AROUND IT--

OOPS.

I THINK THAT THESE OLDER,
MORE-ESTABLISHED POETS

WERE REALLY TURNED ON
BY WHAT THEY SAW,

'CAUSE THE SKILL WAS SO
OBVIOUS.

I MEAN, THEY--THERE
WAS SO MUCH TALENT

THAT THEY WERE SEEING WITH
DEBBIE AND PETER.

AND THE IDEAS WERE
REALLY STRONG.

AND ALSO, DEBBIE AND PETER WERE
MORE FREE, IN A SENSE.

FREE FORM, YOU MIGHT SAY,
WITH THEIR POETRY.

THEY WEREN'T CONSTRAINED
BY RHYME

OR BY ANY PARTICULAR
CONVENTIONS.

THEY WERE JUST
TRYING TO SHOW IMAGES.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW,
AND I'M NOT SURE,

I DON'T REALLY KNOW,

BUT I THINK THAT THE OTHER 3
REALLY LIKED WHAT THEY SAW

AND LIKED WHAT PETER AND DEBBIE
WERE DOING.

BUT IT DIDN'T
MATTER REALLY BECAUSE--

I MEAN, I THINK THERE WAS
SO MUCH MUTUAL RESPECT.

BUT DEBBIE AND
PETER WERE TERRIFIED.

WILL THEY RESPECT ME?
WILL THEY ACCEPT IT?

THEY REALLY WANTED THEIR
SUPPORT AND THEIR VALIDATION

FROM THESE 3 MORE
WELL-ESTABLISHED POETS.

PART OF DEBBIE AND PETER'S
STYLE WAS VERY MOVEMENT-BASED.

THEY NOT ONLY PLAYED WITH ASL
AS A LANGUAGE,

BUT THEY WERE
PLAYING WITH THEIR BODIES

AND GESTURES AND DANCE
MOVEMENTS.

THERE WAS A DANCE TEACHER
AT NTID

BACK AT THAT TIME NAMED
STEFA Z.

AND STEFA WAS AMAZING.

SHE HAD A BIG INFLUENCE ON
DEBBIE AND PETER.

THEY TOOK MANY OF HER CLASSES,

AND THEY LEARNED SO MUCH ABOUT
HOW TO MOVE,

HOW TO USE THEIR BODIES.

AND IT REALLY IMPROVED
THE WORK

THAT THEY WERE PUTTING
OUT IN ASL POETRY, I THINK.

PETER AND I CREATED A POEM
CALLED "CHARLIE,"

AND THERE'S
ONE PART ABOUT THIS DOG

WHO'S UNDERGOING TRAINING
IN THE ARMY.

AND HE'S JUST A TOUGH
LITTLE DOG,

AND HE'S ABLE TO WITHSTAND THIS
TERRIBLE TRAINING.

PART OF THIS TRAINING
EXPERIENCE IS

HE'S THROWN INTO A CRATE.

THE SCIENTISTS ARE TURNING UP
THE TEMPERATURE

HOTTER AND
HOTTER IN THE CRATE.

SO AS THE TEMPERATURE,
THE THERMOSTAT, GOES UP,

THE SCENE GOES BACK
AND FORTH FROM JUST

THAT TEMPERATURE GAUGE BEING
RAISED--

THE THERMOSTAT BEING RAISED--

AND THE DOG REACTING
AND GETTING HOTTER AND HOTTER.

AND PETER DOES THIS BY DANCE
MOVEMENT, IN A SENSE.

IT LOOKS LIKE A DANCE, THIS
PARTICULAR PART OF THE POEM.

AND THAT YOU
CAN TRACE SPECIFICALLY

BACK TO STEFA'S INFLUENCE FROM
THE DANCE CLASSES

AND THE REAL HEAD-TO-TOE
BODY MOVEMENT

THAT SHE WAS TEACHING THEM.

NOW, THE OLDER POETS DID NOT
MOVE THAT WAY.

THEY DIDN'T DO IT AT ALL.

AND MAYBE THEY DIDN'T LIKE IT.
I DON'T KNOW.

OK, BACK IN THE DAY I THOUGHT
THAT ABC STORIES

AND NUMBER STORIES WERE
KIND OF STUPID.

I THOUGHT THEY WERE LIKE
SOMETHING THAT KIDS

WOULD PLAY IN A GAME
BY CREATING THEM.

IN THE BEGINNING,
I DID NOT LIKE

ABC STORIES
OR NUMBER STORIES.

I JUST DIDN'T.

I THOUGHT THEY WERE STUPID,
LIKE A KIDS GAME.

I NEVER SAW A REALLY
SOPHISTICATED RENDERING

OF THAT KIND
OF POEM OR STORY.

SO ONE DAY I WAS KIND OF
COMPLAINING ABOUT IT.

I WAS IN
THE KITCHEN IN MY HOUSE.

I WAS KIND OF, YOU KNOW,
BITCHING AND MOANING

WHILE I WAS WASHING
THE DISHES.

DEBBIE COMES IN,
AND I SAID,

"YOU KNOW, ABC STORIES,
THEY'RE SO STUPID."

KEPT DOING THE DISHES.

"IT'S JUST
SOMETHING FOR KIDS.

IT'S NOT REALLY GOOD.
IT'S DUMB."

NO, I DIDN'T SAY THAT.

I WAS WASHING THE DISHES.

MAYBE I DID ACTUALLY
SAY IT THAT WAY,

TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH.
MAYBE I DID.

BUT ANYWAY, I'M WASHING
THESE DISHES,

THROWING THEM IN THE RACK.

DEBBIE'S RIGHT THERE,
AND I SAID,

"ABC STORIES, EH.

NOTHING TO 'EM. KIDS CAN DO IT.
THEY'RE WORTHLESS."

AND I KEPT
WASHING THE DISHES.

AND DEBBIE'S EYES JUST
LIT ON FIRE.

AND I SAID, "WHAT? WHAT?"

AND SHE SAID, "YOU,
YOU ARE DISSING MY CULTURE
AND MY LANGUAGE."

AND IN A HUFF SHE
JUST RUNS OUT OF THE KITCHEN

AND CLOSES THE DOOR.

I KEEP WASHING THE DISHES,

AND I'M LIKE, "WHAT? WHAT GOT
HER GOAT?"

DISHES FLYING HERE,
DISHES FLYING THERE.

ABOUT 10 MINUTES LATER--NO, IT
WASN'T 10 MINUTES LATER.

IT WAS A LOT LATER.

BUT ANYWAY, DEBBIE COMES
BACK INTO THE KITCHEN

AND SHE SAYS, "YOU CAN'T SAY
THAT ABOUT

MY CULTURE AND MY LANGUAGE.
WATCH THIS."

AND SHE JUST SPONTANEOUSLY
PERFORMED "VEAL BOYCOTT" FOR ME.

ALL IN ONE TAKE.

AND THEN WITH A SATISFIED
SMILE,

SHE WENT OUT OF THE KITCHEN,

LEAVING ME TO
LICK MY WOUNDS.

AND THAT WAS THAT.

WHAT COULD I SAY?

DEBBIE AND I CAME UP WITH
THIS OTHER POEM

THAT WAS INCREDIBLY
INTENSE.

WE ONLY PERFORMED IT,
I THINK, TWICE,

MAYBE 3 TIMES ALTOGETHER.

AND IT CAME
OUT OF MY EXPERIENCES

FROM HAVING WORKED IN
PSYCH HOSPITAL WHEN
I WAS YOUNGER.

THERE WAS THIS ONE
PATIENT, THIS HUGE GUY.

I MEAN, HUGE GUY.

AND HE WAS REALLY INSANE.

IF YOU TRIED TO TALK TO HIM,

HIS RESPONSES WOULD COME
OUT IN KIND OF WORD SALAD,

YOU MIGHT CALL IT.

HE'D START
TALKING ABOUT ONE THING

AND THEN IT WOULD LEAD TO
SOMETHING COMPLETELY UNRELATED

AND JUST CYCLED BACK AND FORTH
AMONGST THINGS

THAT WERE UNRELATED ALL
THE TIME.

AND I TOLD DEBBIE
ABOUT THIS GUY,

AND WE STARTED
PLAYING AROUND WITH THE IDEA.

AND WE CONFLATED WORLD WAR II
WITH NUCLEAR WAR.

AND THE GUY I'M TALKING ABOUT IN
THE PSYCH HOSPITAL,

ONE TIME HE THOUGHT
ACTUALLY THAT

HE WAS STUCK IN A
CONCENTRATION CAMP.

AND HE REALLY THOUGHT THAT THE
NAZIS WERE GOING TO KILL HIM.

SO HE'S THIS BIG GUY, RIGHT?

AND HE PICKED UP A CHAIR--

AND I HAD A FRIEND WHO WAS
WORKING IN THE ROOM WITH HIM

AT THAT TIME
WHO RAN OUT OF THE ROOM.

HE'S BEING CHASED BY THIS HUGE
GUY WITH THE CHAIR.

MADE IT OUT JUST IN TIME AND
CLOSED THE DOOR AND LOCKED IT

JUST AS THE CHAIR WAS
BEING SMASHED

AGAINST THE DOOR ON
THE OTHER SIDE.

SO I TOLD THIS WHOLE STORY
TO DEBBIE,

AND THE TWO OF US CREATED THIS
POEM THAT WE CALLED "WILLIE."

AND THAT CAME OUT OF
THE EXPERIENCE I'D HAD,

JUST, YOU KNOW, THINKING
ABOUT THE WORLD

AND THINKING ABOUT
THOSE IDEAS.

WELL, IT'S INTERESTING.

THIS OTHER POEM THAT DEBBIE
AND I CREATED TOGETHER

CALLED
"MISSING CHILDREN."

SHE HAD A REALLY QUICK
AND SIMPLE IDEA

THAT WAS THE IMPETUS FOR IT.

IT USED TO BE THAT YOU WOULD
BUY MILK CARTONS,

AND ON THE SIDE
OF THE CARTON THERE'D BE

A PICTURE OF A MISSING CHILD,

AND UNDERNEATH IT, IT WOULD SAY,
"HAVE YOU SEEN ME?"

AND THEN THERE WAS LIKE A PHONE
NUMBER OR SOMETHING TO CALL.

SO DEBBIE HAD
THIS SHORT POEM,

MAYBE JUST
A 15-SECOND THING

THAT WAS
BASED OFF OF MILK CARTONS.

AND SHE SHOWED THIS TO ME.

AND IT PERCOLATED IN MY MIND
FOR A WHILE.

AND I ENVISIONED 3 DIFFERENT
SCENARIOS TO ADD TO IT.

ONE WOULD TAKE PLACE IN
SOUTH AFRICA

BECAUSE THERE WAS
A LOT OF UNREST THERE

BECAUSE OF THE APARTHEID
SITUATION

AND THE OPPRESSION OF
THE WHITE PEOPLE

UPON THE BLACK PEOPLE
DOWN THERE.

AND THEN ANOTHER SCENE WOULD
TAKE PLACE IN IRELAND

BECAUSE OF THE ONGOING
RELIGIOUS WAR

BETWEEN THE PROTESTANTS
AND THE CATHOLICS

THAT HAD BEEN GOING ON SINCE
TIME IMMEMORIAL IN IRELAND.

AND THE LAST SCENE WOULD BE IN
CENTRAL AMERICA

BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY WARS
IN CENTRAL AMERICA

GOING ON AT THE SAME TIME.

AND I LOOKED AT ALL THESE
3 DIFFERENT GEOGRAPHIC LOCATIONS

AND THOUGHT ABOUT THE CHILDREN
WHO ARE BORN INTO WAR-TORN AREAS

AND THEN ATTAIN
THEIR ADULTHOOD IN COUNTRIES

THAT ARE STILL AT WAR THE WHOLE
TIME THAT THEY GROW UP.

SO OPPRESSION AND WAR
AND UNREST,

THAT WAS ALL GOING ON
IN MY MIND.

I REMEMBER I WAS IN A BAR

AND THEN I HAD THIS
BREAKTHROUGH IDEA,

AND I WENT HOME AND I TOLD
DEBBIE WHAT MY IDEA WAS.

AND WE CONFERRED,
WENT OUR SEPARATE WAYS.

I THOUGHT OF ANOTHER IDEA,

AND THEN I GOT A HOLD OF HER
AND SAID, "WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.

I'VE GOT THIS OTHER IDEA WE CAN
ADD TO IT."

AND THEN WE JUST SAT DOWN AND WE
REALLY HASHED IT OUT

AND PUT IT ALL TOGETHER,

AND IT BECAME THE POEM,
"MISSING CHILDREN."

WE DID CHANGE ONE PART.

THE PART ABOUT IRELAND
SUBSTITUTED FOR ISRAEL.

I THINK THAT THE ORIGINAL IDEA
WAS ISRAEL.

YOU KNOW, IT'S
ALWAYS BEEN UNDER SIEGE.

THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN A LOT OF
UNREST THERE.

AND THEN WE
CHANGED IT TO IRELAND,

AND I CAN'T REMEMBER WHY.

I DON'T REMEMBER WHY WE DID IT
THAT WAY.

BUT DEBBIE IS JUST SO
AMAZING IN THIS.

I MEAN, I HADN'T SEEN IT
FOR A LONG TIME,

AND THEN I JUST SAW IT
RECENTLY,

AND IT GOT TO ME AGAIN.

EVEN NOW, IT'S JUST AN AMAZINGLY
POIGNANT PIECE OF WORK.

PETER AND I STARTED OUT WITH
THESE GRANTS.

WELL, REALLY IT STARTED BACK
WHEN JIM INVITED US TO PERFORM,

AND THEN IT KEPT HAPPENING.

IT KEPT GOING ON.

MAYBE 3 OR 4
TIMES WE WERE PERFORMING,

AND JUST SEEMED
LIKE IT HAPPENED

MORE AND MORE OFTEN HERE IN
ROCHESTER,

ONE PARTICULAR
COFFEEHOUSE SPECIFICALLY,

BUT SOMETIMES WE'D GO
TO OTHER PLACES.

AND THEN ONCE WE GOT
THE GRANT,

THAT WAS WHAT REALLY
GOT THINGS GOING,

BECAUSE WE COULD BOP AROUND TO
THESE 10 DIFFERENT

SMALL TOWNS, NOT BIG CITIES.

YOU KNOW, LIKE, WE'D GO
THESE SMALL VENUES.

AND EACH PLACE THAT WE
PERFORMED,

THERE'D BE TINY AUDIENCES,
REALLY SMALL AUDIENCES.

BUT MAYBE ONCE IN A WHILE,

SOMEBODY IN ONE OF THESE
AUDIENCES WOULD COME UP AFTER

AND SAY, "OH, YOU'RE JUST
AMAZING.

CAN YOU GIVE ME YOUR CARD?"

AND I'M LIKE, "CARD?"

WELL, I HAVE A PIECE OF PAPER I
COULD WRITE MY PHONE NUMBER ON

AND TEAR OFF THE EDGE OF IT
AND GIVE IT TO YOU.

AND THAT'S WHAT
WE DID IN LIEU OF CARDS.

AND MAYBE LATER WE GET THIS
CALL, AND THEY'D SAY,

"HEY, YOU WANT
TO COME DOWN TO PENNSYLVANIA?"

"SURE."

AND THIS HAPPENED IN
OTHER TOWNS AROUND NEW YORK.

YOU'D JUST KIND OF GET A BITE
FROM SOMEBODY

WHO WAS IN THE AUDIENCE, SAY,
"WANT TO COME TO CLEVELAND?"

"OK. OH."

"WANT TO COME TO CANADA?"

"SURE."

SO, PETER AND I--PETER AND I
WERE GOING MOSTLY LOCALLY

OR NOT TOO FAR AFIELD.

BUT THEN ONCE IN A WHILE THERE'D
BE AN OUTLIER,

SOMEPLACE WE'D GET INVITED
THAT WAS A LITTLE FURTHER AWAY.

AND THEN OUR GEOGRAPHIC SPREAD

JUST KEPT GETTING BIGGER
AND BIGGER.

IT KIND OF HAPPENED ON
ITS OWN.

WE DIDN'T REALLY PURSUE IT.

IN THE BEGINNING,
EVERYONE SAID,

"PETER COOK!
PETER COOK, THE ASL POET,"

AND UNDERNEATH IT WOULD SAY,
"KENNY LERNER, HIS INTERPRETER."

WELL, I'M NOT AN INTERPRETER,
AND IT'S NOT ONLY HIM.

WE COME UP WITH STUFF TOGETHER,
AND, AND, AND.

SO WE HAD TO THINK OF A WAY

THAT WE WOULD AVOID THIS
MISUNDERSTANDING.

AND WE REALIZED WE NEED
TO THINK OF A NAME.

I AM NOT REALLY GOOD AT
COMING UP WITH NAMES OF THINGS.

[CHUCKLES]

IT'S PROBABLY THE THING THAT
I'M MOST INEPT AT.

I AM COLOSSALLY INEPT AT COMING
UP WITH NAMES.

I AM TALENTED IN
MANY OTHER THINGS,

BUT THAT IS
NOT ONE OF THEM.

SO STEFA Z,

THE DANCE TEACHER THAT I TOLD
YOU ABOUT BEFORE,

I THINK SHE'S THE ONE.

SHE CALLED ME ONE DAY
AND SHE SAID,

"OOH"-- AND SHE
WAS SO EXCITED--

"I HAVE THIS
GREAT NAME FOR YOU GUYS."

I SAID "WHAT?"

SHE SAID, "FLYING
WORDS PROJECT."

AND PETER JUST
LOVED THIS IDEA.

HE WAS CRAZY ABOUT IT.

I'M SO BAD WITH
NAMES, I'M LIKE,

"I DON'T KNOW.
SURE, I GUESS."

BUT PETER FELL
MADLY IN LOVE WITH IT

AND GOT ME ON THE TRAIN, TOO,
AND THAT BECAME OUR NAME,

AND IT'S BEEN EVER SINCE.

AND PETER AND I ARE
SO FORTUNATE.

I'M THE LUCKIEST OF ALL.

I GET TO TRAVEL AROUND.

AND, YOU KNOW, PETER LIVES IN
CHICAGO.

I LIVE IN ROCHESTER.

BUT WE STILL GET TO TRAVEL.

AND WE SEE EACH OTHER AT LEAST
EVERY MONTH OR TWO.

WE'LL COME SEPARATELY TO A VENUE
WE'RE SUPPOSED TO PERFORM AT.

WE'LL FLY THERE,
AND THEN WE'LL FLY BACK

TO OUR RESPECTIVE LOCALES,

BUT AM SO--I'M SO FORTUNATE
BECAUSE HE'S MY BEST FRIEND,

AND WE BOTH REALLY ENJOY
WHAT WE DO.

AND I GET TO SEE HIM,
AND WE GET TO DO WHAT WE LIKE

TO DO TOGETHER QUITE OFTEN.

WHAT'S BETTER THAN THAT?

IN THE BEGINNING, WE HAD A SHOW
COMING UP REALLY SOON,

AND I HAD TO, LIKE GET TOGETHER
WITH HIM.

WE HAD TO COME UP WITH
IDEAS, AND WE FINALLY DID.

AND WE HAVE SO MANY LOUSY POEMS
FROM THE VERY BEGINNING,

FROM THE FIRST YEAR OR TWO.
JUST HORRIBLE.

BUT WE WOULD COME UP
WITH THE STUFF,

AND THEN I'D THINK,
"OH, MY GOD.

"I'VE GOT TO
FIGURE OUT HOW TO VOICE THIS.

"WHAT AM I GONNA DO?

"I'VE GOT A SHOW IN 3 DAYS,

"AND I DON'T KNOW THE WORDS
THAT I'M GOING

TO AFFIX TO WHAT WE JUST
CREATED."

SO I'D THINK AND THINK, AND I'D
FINALLY COME UP WITH SOME WORDS.

AND I'D SAY,
"PETER, COME ON.

WE'VE GOT TO PRACTICE."

THERE WAS NO VIDEO
BACK THEN.

AND IT WAS REALLY NICE.

MOST OF THE TIME HE WAS
REALLY WILLING,

IF I COULD
TRACK THE GUY DOWN.

SOMETIMES I'D BE LOOKING FOR HIM
ALL OVER THE PLACE.

IT WASN'T LIKE NOW WHERE YOU
HAVE, LIKE, CELL PHONES

OR A WAY TO FIND
SOMEBODY INSTANTANEOUSLY.

I HAD TO TRACK
THIS GUY DOWN.

WHERE THE HELL'S PETER COOK?

I'D ASK PEOPLE AND THEY WOULD
JUST KIND OF POINT,

"HE WENT THAT-A-WAY."

AND I WOULD FIND HIM,
AND I'D SAY,

"PLEASE, YOU HAVE TO DO IT AGAIN
AND AGAIN AND AGAIN FOR ME.

AGAIN AND AGAIN."

BECAUSE IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO
MATCH UP THE TIMING.

YOU KNOW, WORDS
CAN PUT YOU IN A SITUATION

WHERE YOU'RE LAGGING WAY
BEHIND,

AND THEN THE HEARING PEOPLE
AREN'T GONNA UNDERSTAND IT,

AND THEN THE INTERPRETERS
ARE GONNA CRITICIZE ME,

AND THE DEAF PEOPLE WOULD BE
BLISSFULLY UNAWARE

OF THIS WHOLE SCENARIO,
BUT I'LL BE MISERABLE.

SO I REALLY HAD TO GET THE
TIMING RIGHT

AND BE IN SYNC WITH HIM.

SO I'D HAVE TO ASK HIM,
"PLEASE, DO THIS AGAIN.

"DO IT AGAIN. DO IT AGAIN.
AND AGAIN. AND AGAIN.

"COULD YOU DO THE
BEGINNING AGAIN?

COULD YOU GO
JUST TO THIS PART?"

OR "EVERYTHING'S GOOD.
OK, KEEP GOING, KEEP GOING.

LET ME--LET ME KEEP GOING."

SO PRACTICE WAS REALLY JUST
CRUCIAL AT THAT TIME.

OFTEN THE SIGNS WERE BEAUTIFUL,
EVERYTHING WAS PERFECT,

BUT BY PERFORMANCE TIME,
I WASN'T NECESSARILY READY

WITH THE WORDS ON TIME.

SO NOW, CURRENTLY, I MEAN, WE
HAVE VIDEO.

WE HAVE WAYS TO DO IT.

SO WE'LL WORK ON THE IDEAS,

AND WE'LL GET THEM DOWN
ON A VIDEOTAPE.

AND WE'VE GOT THEM
DOCUMENTED

SO THAT I CAN REWIND IT,
FAST-FORWARD IT.

I CAN PRACTICE IT ON MY OWN,

AND I DON'T NEED HIM RIGHT THERE
IN FRONT OF ME,

AND I CAN GET THE
VOICING DOWN REALLY WELL.

BACK AT THAT TIME,
I'D HAVE THIS GREAT IDEA,

BUT SOMETIMES IT
WOULD JUST GO INTO THE ETHER.

WE'D NEVER HAVE IT, YOU KNOW?

SO MANY IDEAS HE AND I CAME UP
WITH LATE AT NIGHT,

THE NEXT MORNING THEY
WERE JUST GONE.

"WHAT WERE WE THINKING?
WHAT WAS THAT IDEA?

"I SORT OF
REMEMBER THIS ONE PART.

"IT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH
THE SUN COMING UP.

OH, RATS." YOU KNOW,
WE JUST DIDN'T HAVE IT.

MAYBE THE RIGHT SIGN, BUT
COULDN'T FIGURE

HOW IT HUNG ON TO THE
NEXT SIGN OR THE IDEA.

FINALLY, WE BOUGHT OURSELVES
A VIDEO CAMERA,

AND THAT HELPED SO MUCH
WITH THIS WHOLE CREATIVE
PROCESS BACK THEN

'CAUSE FINALLY WE COULD
DOCUMENT IT.

WE COULD GO TO BED AT NIGHT.

WE COULD WAKE UP IN THE MORNING,
WATCH, AND GO,

"OH, YEAH, YEAH. THAT'S WHAT WE
HAD FOR LAST NIGHT.

"EH, IT'S NOT SO GOOD."
OR MAYBE IT WAS.

ALSO, IT MEANT
THAT PETER COULD SEE IT,

BECAUSE FOR A FEW YEARS, I
WOULD WATCH HIM,

AND I WOULD CRITICIZE WHAT HE
WAS DOING OR GIVE HIM FEEDBACK,

BUT HE COULDN'T SEE HIMSELF,
SO HE WAS TRUSTING ME.

BUT HE COULD FINALLY WATCH IT
HIMSELF, WHICH HELPED SO MUCH.

AND SO NOW, OF COURSE,
YOU KNOW,

PETER'S LIVING IN CHICAGO,
AND I'M LIVING HERE.

AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT
TO PRACTICE,

YOU KNOW, IN THE SAME ROOM.

BUT ABOUT 3 OR 4 YEARS AGO,

FINALLY COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY
ADVANCED TO THE POINT

WHERE WE COULD REALLY
GET SMOOTH FEEDS

AND WE COULD TALK TO
EACH OTHER ONLINE.

SO NOW WE CAN SEE EACH OTHER.

PETER CAN SEE ME,
I CAN SEE HIM,

HE CAN PRACTICE,

I CAN GET THE TIMING RIGHT,

EVEN THOUGH HE'S IN CHICAGO
AND I'M HERE.

IT'S JUST INCREDIBLE

THAT THE TECHNOLOGY'S REACHED
THIS POINT.

WE HAVE CREATED A COUPLE OF
POEMS ONLINE.

NOT THAT GOOD.

'CAUSE IT'S A REALLY HARD THING
TO DO.

YES.

VIRTUAL POETRY, I GUESS.

WHAT WE'D COME UP WITH
WASN'T THAT GOOD,

THAT WE DID WHEN WE WEREN'T IN
THE SAME ROOM,

BUT WE'RE GETTING BETTER,
AND I THINK IT WILL GET BETTER.

IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT, BECAUSE
YOU REALLY DO NEED

TO BE TOGETHER IN CLOSE
PROXIMITY.

SO JUST ON A SCREEN WORKING
TOGETHER ISN'T THE SAME

AS BEING IN THE SAME PHYSICAL
LOCATION.

YOU KNOW, BEING
REALLY ABSOLUTELY TOGETHER

IN THE SAME PLACE IS VERY
HELPFUL TO THE CREATIVE PROCESS.

WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

JUST PERSONALLY, JUST A
PERSONAL COMMENT ABOUT PETER.

ONE THING THAT I'VE REALLY
LEARNED FROM HIM...

WELL, HE LEARNED HISTORY AND
POLITICS FROM ME.

AND HE LEARNED HOW TO COMPRESS
HIS IDEAS AND BE MORE CONCISE.

HE'S REALLY GOOD AT
THAT NOW.

AND I LEARNED SIGN
FROM HIM--

MY STYLE, MY SIGNING STYLE--

FROM HANGING OUT WITH
PETER FOR SO MANY YEARS.

I FEEL LIKE I LEARNED
HOW TO SIGN,

AND I ALSO LEARNED HOW TO WATCH
ASL POETRY,

HOW TO REALLY GET THOSE IMAGES.

"OH, THAT'S SIGN
LANGUAGE."

I ACTUALLY LEARNED IT BETTER
JUST FROM WATCHING POETRY.

ANOTHER THING I LEARNED
FROM HIM,

HE IS THE MOST HUMBLE
PERSON.

I MEAN, HERE'S THIS
COLOSSALLY TALENTED GUY,

BUT HE DOES NOT HAVE AN EGO
ABOUT HIMSELF OR HIS WORK.

I MEAN,
WE'VE TRAVELED ALL OVER,

AND PEOPLE COME UP, AND
SOMETIMES THEY CRITICIZE US.

AND I'M READY TO JUST DUKE IT
OUT, MAN.

I WANT TO JUST TAKE THEM OUT ON
THE STREET AND DECK 'EM.

"WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

PETER COOK'S THE MOST
AMAZING..."

YOU KNOW, I JUST WANT TO, LIKE,
GO TO IT.

BUT HE IS JUST SO GREAT,
HE'S SO CREATIVE.

AND HE JUST
VERY PATIENTLY,

RESPECTFULLY
LISTENS TO THEM AND SAID,

"OH, SO YOU DON'T LIKE IT. WHAT
DO YOU SUGGEST?"

HONESTLY, HE'LL SAY, "HERE, GIVE
ME A SUGGESTION

ON HOW YOU'D
IMPROVE THIS."

SO WATCHING HIM DEAL
WITH IT THAT WAY,

I MEAN, HE'S NOT AFRAID OF
CRITICISM AT ALL.

HE WANTS TO LEARN FROM
EVERYBODY,

NO MATTER WHO THAT
PERSON IS,

EVEN IF THEY'RE
SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T KNOW

ANYTHING ABOUT SIGN LANGUAGE,

HE VERY SERIOUSLY, RESPECTFULLY
CONSIDERS WHAT THEY SAY.

AND I LEARNED THAT FROM HIM.

AND I TRY.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW.

IT MAKES ME THINK ABOUT MYSELF
AND HOW I APPROACH THINGS.

THAT'S A GREAT THING TO LEARN
FROM SOMEBODY.

YOU HANG AROUND WITH SOMEBODY
WHO IS A PERSON LIKE THAT,

IT'S BOUND TO RUB
OFF AND INFLUENCE YOU.

WHEN PETER WAS YOUNGER,
YOU KNOW,

HE WAS ALWAYS DOING
THESE IMITATIONS OF
ROCK AND ROLL STARS.

HE JUST WANTED TO BE
A SHREDDING--

A GUITAR-SHREDDING
ROCK AND ROLL GUY.

AND NOW HE REALLY IS ONE.

HE'S A ROCK STAR
FOR DEAF PEOPLE.

THERE'S NO MUSIC.
THERE'S NO SOUND.

BUT HE IS A ROCK STAR.

HE'S SO
AMAZINGLY TALENTED.

HE'S A DEAF ROCK STAR.

THAT'S PETER COOK.

[NO AUDIO]

"This project is supported by a Digitizing Hidden Collections grant from the Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR). The grant program is made possible by funding from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation."

Title supplied by cataloger

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