ds_0027_flahertylow_cap_01.mp4

ds_0027_flahertylow_cap_01.mp4

Interviews

Flaherty, Joe

Flaherty, Joe Interviews

Low, Wendy Interviews

Writers & Books (Firm)

National Deaf Poetry Conference (1987 National Technical Institute for the Deaf)

American Sign Language literature

American poetry 20th century

Deaf, Writings of the, American

Deaf Poetry

ASL poetry

Part of a collection of interviews made for a film on ASL poetry, "The Heart of the Hydrogen Jukebox." In the first interview, Joe Flaherty, Executive Director of Writers & Books in Rochester, New York, discusses his growing awareness of and involvement with the Deaf community in Rochester over the course of the last couple of decades. In the second interview, Wendy Low, Director of Community Outreach and Youth Education at Writers & Books, discusses the beginnings of ASL poetry and her work putting together the National Deaf Poetry Conference in 1987.

National Technical Institute for the Deaf

Rochester Institute of Technology - RIT Libraries - RIT Archive Collections

Low, Wendy,

Lerner, Miriam Nathan

2007

2018

moving image

mp4

DVD

77 minutes

American Sign Language

English

RITDSA.0027

Sculptures in the Air: An Accessible Online Video Repository of the American Sign Language (ASL) Poetry and Literature Collections

Miriam and Kenneth Lerner ASL Poetry Collection

2018-2019 CLIR Grant-ASL Poetry and Literature

https://albert.rit.…

https://archivesspa…

New York - Rochester

Henrietta Campus

RIT Libraries makes materials from its collections available for educational and research purposes pursuant to U.S. Copyright Law. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. It is your responsibility to obtain permission from the copyright holder to publish or reproduce images in print or electronic form.

CC BY-NC-ND: Attribution NonCommercial NoDerivatives 4.0 International

- YOU'RE ON.
- WONDERFUL.

WOMAN: SO, MY FIRST
QUESTION WAS,

DID YOU KNOW ABOUT ANY
DEAF COMMUNITY,

DEAF ANYTHING IN THIS TOWN

BEFORE ALL THIS STUFF
STARTED HAPPENING?

MAN: WELL, I WAS AWARE
OF THE DEAF COMMUNITY HERE,

OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW,
WITH NTID AND--

I MEAN, ONE OF THE REALLY NICE
THINGS, I THINK, ABOUT ROCHESTER

IS THAT YOU SEE
DEAF PEOPLE AROUND.

YOU KNOW, YOU SEE THEM SIGNING,

WHETHER YOU'RE AT THE PUBLIC
MARKET OR A RESTAURANT

OR WHEREVER YOU ARE.

YOU'RE AWARE THAT THERE ARE
A LOT OF DEAF PEOPLE

IN THIS COMMUNITY, YEAH.

WOMAN: OK, BUT YOU HAD NOT
BEEN PRIVY TO ANY SORT OF

DEAF CULTURAL EVENTS,
ENTERTAINMENT, CERTAIN POETRY--

MAN: NO, NOT AT ALL.
NOT AT ALL.

WOMAN: SO, HOW DID IT COME ABOUT
THAT YOU BECAME AWARE OF IT?

HOW DID THIS ALL HAPPEN?

MAN: WELL, WHAT HAPPENED WAS
WHEN WE MOVED TO THIS BUILDING,

WHICH WAS IN 1985, FROM
A PLACE ON SOUTH CLINTON,

WE HAD A 1-ROOM STOREFRONT,
AND WE MOVED HERE IN 1985.

AND SUDDENLY, WE HAD
3 FLOORS OF SPACE

AND A LOT OF OPPORTUNITY
TO DO A LOT OF THINGS.

AND SO WE STARTED HAVING
A LOT MORE POETRY READINGS

AND OTHER EVENTS, AND PEOPLE--
A LOT OF PEOPLE FOUND US.

WE WOULD HAVE AN OPEN MIC
GOING ON ON A MONTHLY BASIS,

SO A LOT OF PEOPLE
WOULD COME TO THAT.

AND, SUDDENLY, THERE WAS
A REAL AWARENESS IN ROCHESTER

THAT THERE WAS A PLACE TO GO
WHERE YOU COULD GIVE A READING

OR LISTEN TO OTHER POETS
OR FICTION WRITERS.

AND SO WE HAD A LOT
OF PEOPLE COMING.

AND, UM...

AND ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE
WAS JIM COHN.

SO, I MEAN, JIM WAS
A KIND OF A REAL BRIDGE

BETWEEN THE 2 COMMUNITIES--

YOU KNOW, BEING A POET HIMSELF,
AND ALSO BEING OUT AT NTID.

AND WENDY LOW ALSO WAS A PERSON
WHO WAS A WRITER AND A POET

AND OUT THERE, TOO.

SO, THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, A KIND
OF A COMMUNICATION GOING ON

THAT PEOPLE WHO WERE WRITERS,
WHO WERE POETS

AND ALSO OUT THERE
IN THE DEAF COMMUNITY

KNEW THAT THERE WAS A WAY
TO KIND OF, YOU KNOW,

KIND OF GET ACROSS
THIS GAP HERE

AND SOMEHOW GET
THE TWO AUDIENCES TOGETHER.

SO, I THINK IT WAS PROBABLY
JIM. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY,

BUT IT WAS PROBABLY JIM WHO
FIRST INTRODUCED ME TO KENNY,

THEN TO PETER.

AND AT THAT TIME,
THERE WAS ALSO ANOTHER WOMAN

WHO WAS A PART OF IT.

- DEBBIE RENNIE.
- DEBBIE RENNIE.

SO, IT WAS--YOU KNOW,
IT WAS THOSE 2 OR 3,

AND I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT--
BUT WE DID HAVE A--

AND ALSO, THERE WAS JAZZBERRY'S,

IN WHICH THERE WAS ALSO KIND OF
A CROSS THING, 'CAUSE PEOPLE--

WHICH WAS A RESTAURANT AND ALSO,
YOU KNOW, ORGANIC RESTAURANT

AND HEALTHY FOOD, AND IT WAS
OVER ON MONROE AVENUE.

AND THERE WAS THE STAGE THERE,
SO THERE WAS A LOT OF READINGS

AND PERFORMANCES AND MUSIC,
YOU KNOW, JAZZ--JAZZBERRY'S--

AND ALSO, YOU KNOW,
ACOUSTIC THINGS.

SO, THERE WAS
THINGS GOING ON,

AND I DON'T REMEMBER
THE EXACT THING,

BUT THERE WAS, YOU KNOW,
PERFORMANCES.

SOME DEAF THINGS STARTED
TO HAPPEN HERE.

AND I REMEMBER AT THE TIME,
SEEING THIS FOR THE FIRST TIME

AND THINKING, "WOW, THIS IS
REALLY--THIS IS REALLY UNIQUE."

AND, YOU KNOW,
IN MY POSITION HERE,

I SAW POETRY ALL OVER
THE COUNTRY.

I MEAN, I WOULD GO
TO PLACES,

AND, YOU KNOW, I WOULD SEE
WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

IT WAS AT THE SAME TIME THAT
THERE WAS THE BEGINNING OF

THE POETRY SLAM, WHICH WAS
GROWING OUT OF CHICAGO.

AND THERE WAS A LOT OF
KIND OF INTEREST IN THAT,

WHILE SUDDENLY, YOU KNOW,
POETRY COULD BE DONE AS

THAT KIND OF OLYMPIC-STYLE
COMPETITIVE EVENT WITH JUDGES.

YOU KNOW, LIKE, SOMEBODY
WOULD READ A POEM

AND THEY'D GIVE 'EM
A, YOU KNOW, 8.5,

LIKE YOU WERE WATCHING,
YOU KNOW, GYMNASTICS ON TV.

SO, THERE WERE SOME DIFFERENT
KINDS OF THINGS GOING ON.

THERE WAS--ON THE WEST COAST,
THERE WAS KIND OF LANGUAGE POETS

THAT WERE KIND OF
COMING OUT OF THERE.

FROM NEW YORK CITY, THERE WAS
A CERTAIN KIND OF, YOU KNOW,

OUTGROWTH AND FOLLOW-UP
TO THE BEAT POETS.

THERE WAS THINGS HAPPENING IN
DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY

WHICH I WAS AWARE OF,

BUT SEEING THIS, IT REALLY
STRUCK ME, YOU KNOW,

"THIS IS SOMETHING VERY UNIQUE
NOT HAPPENING ANYWHERE ELSE

AND, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING
THAT GREW OUT OF ROCHESTER."

AND I REMEMBER
KIND OF SEEING THAT,

BUT I REMEMBER THE FIRST
OPPORTUNITY I REALLY HAD

TO KIND OF PRESENT THAT
TO OTHER PEOPLE WAS, UM...

WE HAD A CONFERENCE HERE
IN ROCHESTER,

AND WE HAD PEOPLE--
IT WAS A LITERARY CONFERENCE.

WE HAD PEOPLE
FROM ALL OVER THE STATE,

A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM
NEW YORK CITY

AND PEOPLE FROM NEW YORK STATE
COUNCIL ON THE ARTS.

AND, UM...WE HAD A DINNER
DOWN AT CITY HALL,

AND KENNY WILL REMEMBER THIS.

AND SO I DECIDED THAT THIS
WOULD BE A GREAT OPPORTUNITY

TO INTRODUCE ALL THESE PEOPLE

TO SOMETHING THAT WAS
UNIQUE TO ROCHESTER.

SO, WHEN THEY CAME
HERE, WE SAID,

"OK, WE'RE GONNA INTRODUCE THEM
WHEN THEY HAD LUNCH."

FOR INSTANCE, WE HAD
LUNCH IN THIS BUILDING.

WE SAID, "WELL,
WE'RE GONNA TEACH YOU

HOW TO EAT WHITE HOTS,"
'CAUSE, YOU KNOW,

WHITE HOTS ARE KIND OF
A ROCHESTER THING, YOU KNOW.

AND WE HAD GENESEE BEER.

SO, WE WERE KIND OF REALLY
KIND OF INTRODUCING THEM

TO ROCHESTER.

AND, SO, I SAID, "WHEN
WE HAVE THIS DINNER,

WE'LL HAVE SOME LOCAL POETS."

AND I REMEMBER PEOPLE WHO WERE
COMING SAID, "OH, BOY.

WE HAVE TO LISTEN
TO LOCAL POETS."

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE,
LIKE, "OH, BOY.

THEY WANT TO SHOW US
THE LOCAL POETS."

AND SO, I SAID, "OK."
I INTRODUCED THEM.

I SAID, "ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS
ABOUT ROCHESTER IS THAT WE HAVE

"THE HIGHEST PER CAPITA DEAF
POPULATION IN THE COUNTRY HERE

"AS A RESULT OF NTID.

"AND PEOPLE COME HERE,
AND THEY GO TO SCHOOL,

"AND THEN A LOT
OF THEM STAY HERE.

"SO, THROUGHOUT ROCHESTER,
THERE ARE DEAF PEOPLE.

"YOU SEE THEM ALL THE TIME.

"THEY'RE REALLY AN IMPORTANT,
INTEGRAL PART OF THE COMMUNITY.

"AND OUT OF THIS HAS REALLY
GROWN THIS REALLY UNIQUE FORM

OF DEAF POETRY."

AND I SAID, "WHAT'S REALLY--
I MEAN, IT'S UNIQUE IN THAT

"AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE
IS VERY BEAUTIFUL TO WATCH,

"AND PEOPLE MAY HAVE SEEN THAT,

"BUT THERE'S ALSO, IN THIS CASE,
THERE'S A SPOKEN

"SO THAT THERE'S A VOICE
WHICH IS BEING SPOKEN.

"SO, YOU HAVE 2 COMMUNITIES
WHO CAN EXPERIENCE

"THE SAME ACTIVITY
OR EVENT OR POETRY

"BUT IN A DIFFERENT WAY,
OBVIOUSLY.

"ALTHOUGH, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
HEARING CAN SEE THE BEAUTY

"OF THE SIGN LANGUAGE
AND THE BODY MOVEMENTS,

"BUT THEY CAN ALSO HEAR
WHAT'S GOING ON,

AND THE DEAF PEOPLE EXPERIENCE
POETRY IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE."

AND SO THEY PERFORMED,
AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE

THAT WAS THERE WAS
GREGORY CALEVACAS.

AND GREGORY CALEVACAS
WAS HEAD OF

THE NEW YORK STATE COUNCIL ON
THE ARTS LITERATURE PROGRAM,

JUST A WONDERFUL,
WONDERFUL PERSON,

WHO ENDED UP DYING OF AIDS--

ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE I KNEW
IN TERMS OF WHO DID DIE OF AIDS.

IT WAS A GREAT LOSS.

BUT HE IMMEDIATELY ALSO SAW
THAT THIS WAS REALLY

A UNIQUE, WONDERFUL THING.

AND, AFTERWARDS, I KNOW,
CAME UP TO ME

AND CAME UP TO KENNY
AND SAID, "YOU KNOW,

"WE REALLY WANT TO DO
A LOT MORE WITH THIS.

WE'D LOVE TO GET YOU GUYS
AROUND THE STATE."

AND OUT OF THAT GREW, REALLY,
FLYING WORDS PROJECT,

BEING ABLE TO GO OUT AND REACH
AN AUDIENCE WAY BEYOND HERE.

SO, I MEAN, MY FIRST--
MY FIRST CONTACT WITH IT

WAS IMMEDIATELY EYE-OPENING...

AND EAR-OPENING
AT THE SAME TIME,

WAS THAT THIS IS REALLY THEM--

THIS IS REALLY WONDERFUL,
IT'S UNIQUE.

THERE'S NOTHING ELSE LIKE THIS
GOING ON ANYWHERE IN THE COUNTRY

AND IT'S SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE

AND SOMETHING TO GET OUT TO
A MUCH WIDER COMMUNITY.

SO, THAT WAS KIND OF THE--YOU
KNOW, WITHOUT REMEMBERING

THE EXACT DETAILS
OF THE FIRST PERFORMANCE,

BUT I THINK IT WAS JIM THAT KIND
OF INTRODUCED SOME THINGS HERE.

BUT I DO REMEMBER VERY, VERY
CLEARLY BEING IMPRESSED

AND VERY CLEARLY SAYING, "OK,
HERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY

"TO REALLY EXPOSE THEM TO
A MUCH LARGER AUDIENCE

THROUGH THIS CONFERENCE
THAT WE HAD."

WOMAN: DID YOU HAVE ANY--
[DOOR LATCH CLICKS]

FIRST OF ALL, IS ALL
THIS NOISE A PROBLEM,

WITH ALL THOSE DOORS?
- WELL...

WOMAN: SHALL WE DO SOMETHING
ABOUT IT BEFORE WE GO ON?

MAN: I'M GONNA HAVE A LITTLE
CHECK AND TAKE A LITTLE CHAT.

IF YOU WANNA DO THAT.
THEY'RE GONNA--

- OK.
- OK.

WOMAN: THAT WAS SO GREAT.
HA HA HA!

THERE WERE SO MANY DIFFERENT
THINGS IN WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

DID YOU HAVE ANY AWARENESS
OR DID ANYBODY EXPLAIN TO YOU

THE SORT OF ADVERSARIAL
RELATIONSHIP

THAT DEAF PEOPLE HAD WITH
THE FACT THAT...

EVEN ACCEPTING THE FACT
THAT ASL COULD BE POETIC?

LIKE, DID YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT
WHOLE CULTURAL LINGUISTIC THING

THAT WAS HAPPENING
THAT WAS THE CONTEXT

FOR WHY THAT WAS
SO AMAZING, LIKE--

MAN: NO, ACTUALLY,
I HAD NO IDEA AT ALL.

- NO IDEA?
- I MEAN, TO ME IT JUST SEEMED--

I MEAN, THE FIRST TIME I SAID,
"YOU KNOW, THIS IS--

"THIS IS A BEAUTIFUL EXPRESSION
OF POETRY, AND IT SEEMED TO BE

A BEAUTIFUL EXPRESSION
OF THE DEAF LANGUAGE, ASL."

NO IDEA THAT THERE'D BE ANY
THOUGHTS THAT THERE'S NO WAY

THAT THIS COULDN'T BE USED
AS A POETIC FORM.

WOMAN: MM-HMM.

DID ANYBODY EXPLAIN IT
TO YOU EVEN LATER, LIKE--

- NO, I--
- NOBODY--THIS IS THE FIRST--

THIS IS THE FIRST
I'VE EVER HEARD OF IT.

WOMAN: IN BRIEF, THE REASON WHY
THIS IS BEING MADE

OR WHY I'M TRYING TO MAKE IT
IS BECAUSE BEFORE THAT TIME,

DEAF PEOPLE WOULD--THEY WOULD
TRANSLATE ENGLISH POETRY,

THEY WOULD TRY TO WRITE
ENGLISH POETRY,

BUT BECAUSE ASL WASN'T
CONSIDERED A REAL LANGUAGE--

EVEN THE DEAF PEOPLE THOUGHT
THAT IT WAS LESS THAN ENGLISH--

AND ENGLISH IS BASED ON SOUND
AND RHYME AND RHYTHM

AND ALL THIS STUFF THAT WE DON'T
HAVE THAT IN OUR LANGUAGE.

SO, POETRY'S ENGLISH, AND THEY'D
READ IT AND NOT GET IT

BECAUSE OF THE CONVOLUTED WAY
THAT ENGLISH WORKS.

- IT'S VERY LINEAR.
- YES.

AND SO, THE REAL REASON WHY
HERE IN ROCHESTER

WAS EVEN MORE AMAZING
THAN YOU ALREADY KNEW.

I MEAN, YOU KNEW IT WAS.

AND THE REASON IT WAS
EVEN MORE AMAZING

IS BECAUSE WHAT WAS HAPPENING
HERE WAS PEOPLE SAYING,

"I'M NOT GONNA TRANSLATE ENGLISH
AND I'M NOT GONNA WRITE ENGLISH.

I'M GOING TO GENERATE IT
IN ASL FIRST

BECAUSE THERE ARE POETIC FORMS,

THERE ARE PARALLELS--AND WENDY'S
GONNA TALK ABOUT THIS--

THAT THE RHYTHM AND THE WIT
AND THE RHYME AND ALL THAT

CAN BE DONE IN SIGN LANGUAGE.

IT'S JUST DONE
IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

AND SO THERE WAS THIS
REALIZATION AND EXPERIMENTATION

THAT HAPPENED HERE.

AND THERE WERE A COUPLE
OTHER PEOPLE DOING IT

IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY,

BUT IT WAS FAIRLY ENDEMIC
TO THE ROCHESTER AREA

THAT THIS EXPLOSION
WAS REALLY HAPPENING.

MAN: MM-HMM.

WOMAN: AND SO, WHAT
YOU WERE INTUITING

WAS EVEN MORE RIGHT
THAN YOU KNEW, YOU KNOW,

THAT IT WAS INCREDIBLE
EVEN AMONGST THE DEAF PEOPLE.

AND SOME PEOPLE WERE RESISTANT.
THEY HAD TROUBLE WITH IT.

THEY LOOKED AT IT AND WENT,
"THIS ISN'T POETRY.

"IT'S SOMETHING ELSE,
BUT IT'S NOT POETRY

BECAUSE POETRY'S ENGLISH,
IT'S NOT OURS."

IT'S LIKE, "IT IS YOURS,
AND YOU'RE DOING IT."

- YEAH.
- WHAT YOU'RE DOING--

MAN: WELL, YOU KNOW,
IT'S INTERESTING 'CAUSE

THAT PARALLELS SO MANY OTHER
KINDS OF VOICES COMING FORWARD.

I MEAN, THERE WAS A TIME WHEN IT
WAS THE SAME WITH WOMEN POETS,

YOU KNOW, LIKE POETRY
IS THE LANGUAGE OF MEN,

I MEAN, AS SEEN BY
THE MEN, YOU KNOW.

AND YOU KNOW
THE WOMAN'S VOICE,

YOU KNOW, IT SHOULD BE
IN THE HOME.

IT SHOULD BE ABOUT NURTURING
AND RAISING CHILDREN,

BUT IT SHOULD NOT BE
ABOUT THE WORLD.

AND SO, I MEAN, IN THE
FIFTIES AND SIXTIES,

THERE WAS A WHOLE WOMEN
CLAIMING THEIR VOICES

AND, YOU KNOW, THE ESTABLISHMENT
SAYING, YOU KNOW,

"THAT'S REALLY NOT,
YOU KNOW, WORTHY OF BEING SEEN

AS GREAT POETRY."

AND THE SAME THING, YOU KNOW,
WITH BLACK PEOPLE, BLACK POETS,

AND, YOU KNOW, JUST A NUMBER
OF OTHER OF GROUPS LIKE THAT

THAT HAVE JUST DISCOVERED THEIR
VOICES AND THE OVERWHELMING,

YOU KNOW, THE OVERRIDING
ACADEMIC STRUCTURE SAYING,

"NO, THAT'S NOT. I MEAN,
WE KNOW WHAT IS GOOD POETRY,

"AND IT'S THESE
WHITE MEN, YOU KNOW,

WHO ARE THE ONES
THAT CAN DO IT."

SO, IT'S VERY PARALLEL TO
A NUMBER OF OTHER SITUATIONS.

WOMAN: RIGHT. IN THIS CASE,
WHITE HEARING MEN. HA!

MAN: YES, YES, RIGHT.

- YEAH.
- YEAH.

WOMAN: THAT'S A REALLY
GREAT PARALLEL TO MAKE.

IT'S TRUE. SO, YOU WEREN'T
AWARE OF THAT.

- NO.
- AND WHEN, UM--

HAVE YOU USED
INTERPRETERS BEFORE?

BECAUSE EVEN BEFORE THE ASL
POETS, THERE WERE DEAF POETS,

THERE WERE SOME
INTERPRETIVE PERFORMANCE--

- WE DID.
- AND I'M NOT REMEMBERING

IF YOU USED THEM BEFORE--
- YES, YES.

MAN: WHENEVER WE WOULD HAVE
A LARGE WELL-KNOWN WRITER,

WE WOULD GET AN INTERPRETER
TO INTERPRET FOR THE DEAF.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE MAY NOT HAVE
THAT LARGE AN AUDIENCE

THAT WOULD COME, BUT IF THERE
WERE 2 OR 3 OR 4 PEOPLE,

THEN THEY WERE ABLE TO HAVE
THE EXPERIENCE OF THAT WRITER

AND WHATEVER THEY WERE
SAYING OR READING FROM.

SO, WE DID--WE DID HAVE
INTERPRETERS PRIOR TO

THE DEAF POETRY MOVEMENT HERE.

AND EVEN AT THAT TIME,
I REMEMBER, UH...

LOOKING AT THE INTERPRETERS
AS THEY WERE INTERPRETING

AND JUST SORT OF SAYING,

"WOW, YOU KNOW, THAT'S REALLY
INTERESTING TO WATCH, YOU KNOW,"

AND YOU KIND OF WOULD HEAR--

AND ESPECIALLY IF IT WAS,
YOU KNOW, LIKE, IF THERE WAS

A WORD, LIKE, "FUCK," YOU KNOW.

AND SO, LIKE, EVERYBODY IN THE
AUDIENCE, YOU KNOW, WOULD--

THEIR EYES WOULD GO, "HOW ARE
THEY GONNA INTERPRET THAT?"

YOU KNOW? HA HA!

SO, IT WAS--YOU KNOW,
THERE WAS THAT--

I MEAN, NOBODY--I SORT OF DIDN'T
PUT 2 AND 2 TOGETHER TO SAY,

"WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT
WOULD BE WONDERFUL

AS A SEPARATE KIND OF THING."

IT WAS JUST THAT IT WAS CURIOUS
TO SEE HOW, YOU KNOW,

THE SPOKEN LANGUAGE WAS
INTERPRETED THROUGH THE DEAF.

AND THAT WAS REALLY
MY FIRST EXPERIENCE

WAS THROUGH INTERPRETERS
WHO WERE INTERPRETING SOMETHING

THAT I WAS HEARING FROM
A HEARING WRITER OF SOME KIND.

WOMAN: MM-HMM.
DID YOU EVER--AHEM--

DID YOU FEEL FROM
THIS WHOLE EXPERIENCE

THAT YOU UNDERSTOOD MORE
ABOUT THE CULTURE OF THE DEAF

IN ANY SENSE?

LIKE, YOU WERE GETTING
A READ ON THE LANGUAGE

AND THAT IT WAS BEAUTIFUL AND IT
WAS INTERESTING TO LISTEN TO,

LIKE SOMEBODY VOICE IT
AND ALL THAT KIND OF SENSE.

DID YOU FEEL LIKE--DID YOU GET
ANY MORE OF THE SENSIBILITY

OF WHAT DEAFNESS WAS
OR WHAT THE IMPRESSION WAS

OR ANY OF THOSE
SORTS OF ISSUES--

MAN: WELL, YEAH. I MEAN,
AS A RESULT OF THEM,

THERE WERE A COUPLE OF THINGS.

I REMEMBER, UM...

THROUGH, YOU KNOW, THROUGH
PETER AND THROUGH KENNY,

I MEAN, GETTING A SENSE
OF HOW DIFFICULT IT WAS

FOR SOMEBODY WHO HAD BEEN
DEAF SINCE BIRTH

TO KIND OF LEARN TO WRITE
THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE,

THE WRITTEN LANGUAGE
AND HAVE A SENSE OF THE GRAMMAR

AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND IT JUST SORT OF MADE ME
THINK, "WELL, YEAH,

"I MEAN, IT'S TRUE.
YOU LEARN THE LANGUAGE FIRST,

"YOU KNOW, AS YOU'RE GROWING UP,
BY HEARING IT.

AND IT'S ONLY WHEN YOU GET TO
BE, WHAT, 5 OR 6 YEARS OLD

THAT YOU'RE SUDDENLY
STARTING TO WRITE,

BUT YOU HAVE
THIS WHOLE BACKGROUND

OF, YOU KNOW, HOW THINGS ARE
SAID AND THE GRAMMAR OF IT.

AND SO, SUDDENLY, I HAD THAT
EXPERIENCE OF SAYING,

"BOY, THAT MUST BE DIFFICULT."

CAN YOU IMAGINE COMING ACROSS
A LANGUAGE THAT, YOU KNOW,

SUDDENLY YOU HAVE TO
WRITE IT OUT

AND YOU HAVE NOTHING REALLY
THAT'S PRIOR TO THAT?

SO, I DID HAVE A SENSE OF THAT.

AND THEN I ALSO HAD,
AS A RESULT OF IT,

THE SENSE OF THE FEELING WITHIN
THE DEAF COMMUNITY THAT...

YOU KNOW, THIS IS
OUR OWN COMMUNITY,

AND IT'S NOT AS IF IT IS--
IT'S NOT AS IF WE'RE--

WE'RE LESS THAN EVERYBODY ELSE
BECAUSE WE CANNOT HEAR

AND SPEAK THE LANGUAGE

AND THAT THIS LANGUAGE,
THIS AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE,

IS OUR OWN LANGUAGE THAT WE
WANT TO EMBRACE AS OUR LANGUAGE.

AND EVEN IF--AND THIS WAS KIND
OF THE FIRST TIME OF HEARING

AND THINKING ABOUT--
EVEN IF COCHLEAR IMPLANTS

WERE AVAILABLE,
YOU KNOW, TO SAY, "NO."

"YOU KNOW, THIS EXPERIENCE
IS ITS OWN TRUE EXPERIENCE

WITHIN THIS DEAF COMMUNITY,
AND THAT IS ENOUGH."

IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT YOU
HAVE TO THEN, YOU KNOW,

TRY TO MAKE SOMEBODY
LIKE THE HEARING COMMUNITY.

SO, I, AS A RESULT OF IT, YES.

I MEAN, ALL THESE KINDS OF
ISSUES WERE ONES THAT

WERE SPOKEN ABOUT, THAT I WAS,
YOU KNOW, KIND OF THINKING ABOUT

AND HEARING ABOUT
FROM DEAF PEOPLE

OR FROM HEARING PEOPLE
WHO WERE, YOU KNOW, AT NTID

WHO WERE THE PERSON
WHO WERE THE INTERPRETERS.

SO, YEAH, SUDDENLY,
IT WAS LIKE A WHOLE CULTURE

THAT I WAS UNAWARE OF,

AND THE ISSUES OF BEING
PART OF THAT CULTURE

STARTED TO COME FORWARD TO ME

AND GET AN UNDERSTANDING
OF IT, YEAH.

WOMAN: YEAH, THE TIMING OF IT
IS REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE

RIGHT AROUND THEN IS WHEN THE
DEAF PRESIDENT NOW STUFF

WAS GOING ON AT GALLAUDET
AND ALL THIS SORT OF LIKE

DEAF PRIDE STUFF WAS HAPPENING.

AND THIS THING OF ASL,
YOU KNOW, WE--LIKE A BANNER.

MAN: YEAH.

WOMAN: THE REASON IT ALL
HAPPENED AT THE SAME TIME,

JIM COHN KIND OF DESCRIBES IT
AS A PERFECT STORM.

IT'S LIKE IT'S THE RIGHT PLACE,
THE RIGHT TIME,

THE RIGHT PEOPLE,
THE RIGHT ENERGY,

THE RIGHT POLITICAL MOMENT.
- YES, YEAH.

WOMAN: THE RIGHT COALESCENCE
OF ALL THOSE THINGS

AND THIS UNDERSTANDING
THAT, YOU KNOW,

OUR LANGUAGE IS A LANGUAGE,

WHICH HAD BEEN LINGUISTICALLY
VERIFIED BY SOME RESEARCHERS

AT GALLAUDET, LIKE, '65, '66,

BUT TOOK A WHILE
TO PERCOLATE OUT, AS YOU KNOW.

AND THEN ALL THESE STUDENTS WHO
ARE FROM SCHOOLS FOR THE DEAF,

OR MAINSTREAMED SCHOOLS
FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY,

ARE COMING TOGETHER
IN THIS PLACE,

AND IT WAS LIKE
A SLAM IN ITSELF,

BEING IN THIS COMMUNITY
WITH SO MANY DEAF PEOPLE.

IT'S LIKE ALL THIS CREATIVE
ENERGY IN ONE PLACE.

- YEAH.
- SO...

MAN: AND THE OTHER THING
I REMEMBER, WHICH--

FUNNY ABOUT THAT TIME, WHICH I
THOUGHT WAS SO INTERESTING,

WAS THE IDEA THAT
THE FRENCH USED ASL,

WHERE THE ENGLISH
IN ENGLAND DID NOT.

AND SO THAT THERE WAS
A BETTER ABILITY

FOR, YOU KNOW, DEAF AMERICANS
WHO UNDERSTOOD ASL

TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE FRENCH
WHO WERE DOING IT,

AS OPPOSED TO THE ENGLISH,
WHICH WERE DOING, LIKE,

THE SPELLING OUT OF LETTERS.

YOU KNOW, AND I THINK,
"WELL, THAT'S INTERESTING."

LIKE, HERE'S THIS COMMUNICATION
THAT GOES ON BETTER THAN--

FOR US TO SPEAK
TO FRENCH PEOPLE,

HEARING PEOPLE WOULD SAY,
"OH, YOU HAVE TO LEARN FRENCH

"OR THEY HAVE TO LEARN ENGLISH.

"BUT THE BRITISH--WE CAN ALWAYS
SPEAK WITH THE BRITISH

EVEN WITH THEIR
FUNNY ACCENTS."

BUT THE IDEA OF AMERICAN DEAF
BEING ABLE TO SPEAK, LIKE,

IMMEDIATELY WITH
THE FRENCH DEAF

WAS KIND OF A FASCINATING
KIND OF THING FOR ME.

- RIGHT.
- JUST A LITTLE TIDBIT THAT--

- THAT'S ALMOST RIGHT.
- ALMOST, BUT NOT--

WOMAN: ALMOST, BUT NOT QUITE.
WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT ASL--

WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT THERE
WAS A FRENCH EDUCATOR.

THE FIRST SCHOOLS FOR THE
DEAF IN THE ENTIRE WORLD

WERE IN FRANCE.
- UH-HUH.

WOMAN: AND GALLAUDET--
THOMAS HOPKINS GALLAUDET--

- OK.
- HAD GONE OVER TO FRANCE

TO LEARN METHODS, BROUGHT A
DEAF MAN FROM THERE OVER HERE,

STARTED THE FIRST SCHOOL
FOR THE DEAF IN AMERICA

IN CONNECTICUT,
AND THEN ALL THE KIDS

WHO HAD THEIR OWN
SORT OF SIGNS AND HOME SIGNS

AND THEIR OWN REGIONAL
THINGS CAME THERE,

TOOK WHAT THEY
ALREADY HAD,

AND THEN THIS FRENCH GUY
TAUGHT THEM SOME STUFF

THAT GOT FRENCH LANGUAGE,
FRENCH SIGN LANGUAGE

MIXED IN WITH IT.
- OH. UH-HUH.

SO, THE REASON THAT THEY
CAN COMMUNICATE SO WELL

ISN'T BECAUSE IT'S
EXACTLY THE SAME,

BUT THERE'S A LOT OF FRENCH
SIGN LANGUAGE IN ASL.

- OH, OK.
- SO, IT'S NOT EXACTLY THE SAME.

SO, YOU'RE VERY, VERY CLOSE,

BUT IT'S NOT LIKE
IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME,

BUT THERE'S SO MANY SIGNS
THAT ARE SIMILAR,

AND THE GRAMMAR'S
VERY SIMILAR

THAT IT IS A MUCH MORE
IMMEDIATE ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE

THEN THROUGH SIGN LANGUAGE

AND A LOT OF OTHER SIGN LANGUAGE
AROUND THE WORLD,

'CAUSE THEY'RE DIFFERENT
IN EVERY COUNTRY.

MAN: RIGHT. MM-HMM.

WOMAN: AND YOU BROUGHT UP
COCHLEAR IMPLANTS,

WHICH IS A BIG,
BIG HOT TOPIC.

MAN: WHICH IS SOMETHING I NEVER
WOULD HAVE EVEN KNOWN ABOUT

OR THOUGHT ABOUT WITHOUT
HAVING THIS EXPERIENCE

WITH DEAF POETRY.

I--BASICALLY EVERYTHING YOU SAID
WAS EXACTLY WHAT I NEEDED.

CAN'T REALLY THINK OF
ANYTHING ELSE,

UNLESS THERE'S ANYTHING ELSE
YOU'D LIKE TO ADD ABOUT

ANY OF IT AT ALL, ANYTHING THAT
COMES TO MIND YOU'D LIKE TO--

YOU SAID SOME WONDERFUL THINGS
I'M GONNA PULL OUT ALREADY,

BUT ANYTHING ELSE
YOU'D LIKE TO--

MAN: NO, I MEAN, IT'S JUST--
I REMEMBER JUST THAT LOSS,

ACTUALLY, WHEN PETER MOVED AWAY.

AND JUST KIND OF THINKING,
"WOW, THIS IS--I MEAN, THIS WAS

"SOMETHING WHICH WAS SO
WONDERFULLY OF THIS AREA

AND OF THIS COMMUNITY."

AND THEN, WITHOUT HAVING
THE CONTINUATION

ONGOING ON A REGULAR BASIS
WITH FLYING WORDS WAS JUST--

I REMEMBER JUST FEELING THAT,
VERY PERSONALLY, AS A BIG LOSS,

AND A LOSS FOR THE OVERALL
KIND OF POETRY COMMUNITY

IN ROCHESTER.

SO, WHENEVER THEY GET
TOGETHER AND DO IT AGAIN,

ALWAYS, YOU KNOW,
EXCITED ABOUT THAT.

WOMAN: THEY'LL BE IN TOWN
FEBRUARY DOING A SHOW AT NTID,

AND THERE IS A DEAF GUY IN TOWN
NAMED JEREMY CAREAU

THAT JUST MOVED OUT A FEW YEARS
AGO FROM SEATTLE

WHO HAS AN OPEN--A DEAF POETRY
SERIES, AN OPEN MIC SERIES,

FIRST SATURDAY OF EVERY MONTH
OVER AT JITTERS AT SOUTHTOWN.

SO, HE'S TRYING TO
GET IT GOING AGAIN.

HE'S GOT A GROUP
CALLED THE PRESERVERS,

AND IT'S SIGN LANGUAGE
PRESERVATION.

AND HE'S TRYING TO GET
A DEAF POETRY SCENE GOING,

AND HE'S HAVING
A LOT OF TROUBLE.

- REALLY?
- LOT OF TROUBLE
GETTING IT GOING.

AND I SHOULD PUT HIM
IN TOUCH WITH YOU.

- YOU SHOULD, YEAH.
- MAYBE THERE'S SOME WAY
YOU COULD HELP HIM OUT.

- OH, YEAH.
- HE HAD A GALLERY,

A STUDIO SPACE
OVER ON UNIVERSITY,

DOWN AT THE END OF THE STREET,
DOWN--WAY DOWN WHERE IT BECOMES

CHANNEL WHATEVER IT IS
DOWN THERE.

- RIGHT.
- AND HE WAS PUTTING
OUT A LOT OF MONEY

AND NOT ABLE TO
GET A LOT BACK.

SO, NOW JITTERS IS LENDING
THEM THEIR STAGE,

AND HE'S DOING THAT
ONCE IN A WHILE.

BUT I'LL PUT
YOU GUYS IN TOUCH.

- PLEASE, 'CAUSE YOU KNOW--
- HE'S TRIED TO REVIVE IT.

MAN: WE WOULD LOVE TO, YOU KNOW,
TO HAVE IT HERE.

WOMAN: RIGHT.

MAN: AND THERE'S ALRE--THERE'S
A BIG AUDIENCE OF PEOPLE,

YOU KNOW, WHO REMEMBER THAT AND
THEY'RE LOOKING FOR MORE OF IT.

- SO, YES.
- THANK YOU SO MUCH.

- SURE.
- WONDERFUL.

WOMAN: IT'S EXACTLY WHAT
I NEEDED. I APPRECIATE IT.

- GREAT.
- THANKS, JOE.

MAN: WOULD IT HELP
TO ASK NUMBER 1 AGAIN

BECAUSE OF THE NOISE PROBLEM?

THAT'S A LONG THING TO HAVE
TO SAY AGAIN, BUT IF--

DO YOU THINK WE NEED IT?
WAS IT THAT DISTRACTING?

MAN: CAN YOU DO IT, JOE?
WOMAN: THAT WHOLE...

JOE: THAT WHOLE...

- I'M SORRY.
- OK.

WOMAN: IF YOU CAN,
THAT'D BE GREAT.

- ...THE 4 GUYS--
- YEAH, RIGHT.

WOMAN: IT HAD A FLOW,
IF YOU REMEMBER HOW YOU BEGAN.

AND JIM AND THEN HOW
AND THEN THE BANQUET

AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF.

- RIGHT, YEAH.
- I'M SORRY.

- OK.
- THANKS, JOE.

WOMAN: IT WOULD BE GREAT.

THAT'S WHERE A LOT
OF THE MEAT WAS, TOO, SO...

MAN: LET ME SEE THE QUESTION.

WOMAN: IT WAS JUST
HOW IT ALL BEGAN

AND WHO APPROACHED
YOU FIRST WITH HAV--

WERE YOU AWARE OF THE DEAF
COMMUNITY IN ROCHESTER,

AND HOW DID IT HAPPEN THAT
YOU GOT SORT OF DRAWN INTO

THIS WHOLE DEAF CULTURE THING?

JOE: YEAH, WELL, I WAS AWARE
THAT THERE WAS A DEAF COMMUNITY

AND JUST AWARE OF IT

BECAUSE OF ROCHESTER
BEING WHAT ROCHESTER IS,

AND THERE'S ALWAYS
DEAF PEOPLE AROUND,

NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO.

YOU KNOW, YOU CAN BE
AT THE PUBLIC MARKET,

YOU CAN BE AT A RESTAURANT,

YOU CAN BE AT A BAR
WITH THE GAME ON OR SOMETHING,

AND THERE'S GONNA BE
DEAF PEOPLE AROUND.

AND IT JUST--I MEAN, I THINK
IT'S ONE OF THE REALLY WONDERFUL

THINGS ABOUT ROCHESTER
AND KIND OF ADDS

A CERTAIN KIND OF,
YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT

OTHER COMMUNITIES DON'T HAVE.

SO, I WAS AWARE OF THAT.
I WASN'T REALLY AWARE

THAT THERE WAS A DEAF POETRY
GOING ON AT ALL.

BUT I THINK THE
CONNECTION WAS MADE--

THERE WERE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE
LIKE JIM COHN, WENDY LOW,

WHO WERE THEMSELVES, YOU KNOW,
HEARING WRITERS, POETS,

WHO WERE AT WRITERS & BOOKS
DOING READINGS AND...

BUT WERE ALSO OUT AT NTID
AS INTERPRETERS.

SO, THEY--AT THAT TIME, WE HAD
JUST MOVED INTO THIS BUILDING

IN 1985, AND IT WAS--

SUDDENLY, WE HAD A LOT MORE
SPACE THAN WE HAD HAD BEFORE.

BEFORE, WE HAD ONE ROOM,

SO IF WE HAD A CLASS
OR A WORKSHOP,

YOU COULDN'T HAVE
A READING.

AND SO, YOU COULD DO
ONE THING AT A TIME.

BUT WHEN WE MOVED IN HERE,
WE COULD HAVE--

YOU KNOW, WITH 3 FLOORS,
WE COULD HAVE

2 OR 3 OR 4 CLASSES GOING ON
AND A POETRY READING

OR SOME OTHER KIND
OF PERFORMANCE.

SO, SUDDENLY, WE WERE ABLE TO
HAVE A LOT MORE THINGS GOING ON.

AND IT WAS A TIME WHEN IT WAS--

IT WAS A REALLY ACTIVE TIME

OF PEOPLE KIND OF
DISCOVERING POETRY

AND KIND OF WRITING IT
AND WANTING TO PERFORM IT.

I MEAN, IT WAS GOING FROM
MUCH MORE OF A, YOU KNOW,

THE WRITTEN POEM TO
THERE WAS A REAL SENSE NOW
OF PERFORMANCE OF POETRY.

AND SO, THERE WAS THAT
CONNECTION THAT WAS MADE

THROUGH JIM OR THROUGH WENDY
OF THERE WAS THIS BEGINNING

OF DEAF POETRY AND
TO HAVE IT, YOU KNOW,

LIKE, TAKE PLACE HERE.

AND ALSO, THERE WAS JAZZBERRY'S,
WHICH WAS ANOTHER PLACE,

AND SO THERE WERE READINGS
AND THINGS GOING ON.

BUT, YOU KNOW, WHOEVER
IT WAS--JIM OR WENDY--

THERE WAS A DEAF POETRY
EVENING DONE HERE.

AND I REMEMBER AT THE TIME
JUST BEING REALLY AMAZED BY IT

AND SAYING, "WOW,
THIS IS REALLY UNIQUE."

AND I WAS AWARE OF POETRY
ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY

IN VARIOUS MOVEMENTS GOING ON.

YOU KNOW, THE BEGINNING
OF POETRY SLAMS IN CHICAGO,

LANGUAGE POETRY GOING ON
OUT IN SAN FRANCISCO AND L.A.

AND EVEN COWBOY POETRY,
YOU KNOW, OUT IN MONTANA

AND PLACES LIKE THAT.

SO, THERE WAS SOME VERY--
THINGS THAT WERE VERY UNIQUE

TO SPECIFIC PLACES.

THERE WAS A CERTAIN KIND
OF NEW YORK CITY KIND OF

PERFORMANCE POETRY GOING ON.

[COUGHS]

SO, I KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON,
AND SEEING THIS, I SAID,

"YOU KNOW, THIS IS--THIS IS NOT
HAPPENING ANYWHERE ELSE.

"THIS IS COMPLETELY
UNIQUE TO ROCHESTER--

[VEHICLE ENGINE REVVING LOUDLY]

AND IT'S REALLY WONDERFUL.

I MEAN, IT COULD--IT HAPPENS,
IT'S HAPPENING HERE BECAUSE

THERE IS A DEAF COMMUNITY
THAT EXISTS

OF THE SIZE THAT IT DOES.

AND NOT ONLY WAS THERE
THE--I MEAN, EVEN BEYOND

THE UNIQUENESS OF SEEING
DEAF POETRY PERFORMED

WITH AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE
AND EVEN MORE OF A KIND OF

A BODY MOVEMENT, THERE WAS
THE OTHER ASPECT OF IT,

WHICH WAS HAVING IT
INTERPRETED FOR THE HEARING.

AND THE TWO OF THEM TOGETHER
MADE IT EVEN MORE UNIQUE FOR ME,

AND I THOUGHT, "THIS IS
WONDERFUL. THIS IS GREAT.

"IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S
GROWN OUT OF HERE.

"THIS IS OUR OWN THING
IN ROCHESTER,

AND IT SHOULD GET A LARGER
AUDIENCE OUTSIDE OF HERE."

AND I REMEMBER
THE OPPORTUNITY CAME ALONG.

WE HAD A CONFERENCE HERE,
WHICH WAS IN...I DON'T KNOW,

1985, '86, SOMETHING LIKE THAT,

AND WE HAD PEOPLE FROM
AROUND THE STATE.

AND IT WAS DONE
IN COLLABORATION

WITH NEW YORK STATE
COUNCIL ON THE ARTS.

AND SO, WHEN WE HAD
THE PEOPLE THERE,

WE HAD 'EM HERE FOR 2 DAYS,
2 OR 3 DAYS.

WE WANTED TO INTRODUCE
THEM TO THINGS

THAT WERE UNIQUE TO ROCHESTER.

SO, WE HAD A LUNCH AND
WE HAD WHITE HOTS, YOU KNOW,

SO THEY COULD KIND OF--
YOU KNOW, "WHAT'S A WHITE HOT?"

"WELL, HERE'S A WHITE HOT."

AND WE HAD GENESEE BEER FOR THEM
TO DRINK. "HERE'S..." YOU KNOW.

AND THEN THE OTHER THING WAS,
WE HAD A DINNER

THAT WE HELD AT CITY HALL.

SO, WE WANTED THEM TO SEE
THIS ARCHITECTURE,

THIS WONDERFUL ARCHITECTURE
OF CITY HALL

AND BEAUTIFUL OLD
BUILDING RESTORED.

AND I THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE
A GREAT OPPORTUNITY

TO HAVE THEM SEE DEAF POETRY,

BUT I DIDN'T SAY TO ANYBODY
IT WAS DEAF POETRY.

WHAT I SAID WAS THAT
"YOU'LL BE HEARING SOME
LOCAL POETS BEFORE DINNER."

AND I REMEMBER PEOPLE
SAYING, "OH, BOY.

WE GOTTA LISTEN
TO THE LOCAL POETS."

YOU KNOW, "CAN'T WE
JUST EAT?" YOU KNOW.

SO, BEFORE THE DINNER,
I WENT UP AND I SAID--

AND I SAID TO PEOPLE, "YOU KNOW,
YOU'RE VISITING ROCHESTER,

"MANY OF YOU
FOR THE FIRST TIME.

"ONE OF THE REALLY UNIQUE THINGS
ABOUT ROCHESTER IS THAT WE HAVE

"THE HIGHEST PER CAPITA
DEAF COMMUNITY IN THE
ENTIRE COUNTRY HERE.

"SO, AS YOU GO AROUND ROCHESTER,
YOU WILL SEE PEOPLE,

"DEAF PEOPLE SIGNING.

"AND IT'S A WONDERFUL THING THAT
MAKES IT A UNIQUE COMMUNITY.

"AND ALSO, THERE IS A KIND
OF POETRY THAT'S GROWN UP

OUT OF THIS THAT I WOULD
LIKE YOU TO EXPERIENCE."

SO, I INTRODUCED--IT WAS KENNY
AND PETER AND DEBBIE RENNIE.

AND THEY PERFORMED,
AND THE PEOPLE THERE WERE--

I MEAN, THESE WERE PUBLISHERS
FROM NEW YORK AND POETS

AND ARTS ADMINISTRATORS.

THEY WERE JUST BLOWN AWAY
BY EVERYTHING.

"OH, MY GOD.
THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE."

AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE THERE
WAS GREGORY CALEVACAS.

AND GREGORY WAS THE HEAD OF

THE NEW YORK STATE COUNCIL ON
THE ARTS LITERATURE PROGRAM,

WONDERFUL PERSON,

THE FIRST PERSON I ACTUALLY KNEW
PERSONALLY WHO HAD DIED OF AIDS,

WHICH WAS A GREAT LOSS.

BUT HE WAS VERY
FORWARD-THINKING

AND REALLY IMMEDIATELY SAW
WHAT WAS WONDERFUL AND GREAT

ABOUT THIS DEAF POETRY.

AND AFTERWARDS, COME UP
AND SAID, "THIS--

"THANK YOU FOR INTRODUCING--
THIS IS WONDERFUL.

PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE
STATE OF NEW YORK HAVE
TO SEE ABOUT THIS."

AND HE TALKED TO
KENNY AND PETER.

AND AS A RESULT OF THAT,

HE ARRANGED FOR FUNDING
FOR THEM TO TOUR

THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES
AND THROUGHOUT NEW YORK STATE--

THEY DID ALSO OTHER PLACES
THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES--

BUT THROUGHOUT NEW YORK STATE
INTRODUCED DEAF POETRY

TO AUDIENCES AROUND
NEW YORK.

AND THAT FIRST THING OF
"YES, THIS IS GOOD.

"PEOPLE CAN RECOGNIZE IT HERE,
HOW UNIQUE AND WONDERFUL IT IS,

"BUT ALSO PEOPLE FROM AROUND
THE COUNTRY AND THE STATE TO

RECOGNIZE IT AND TO GET OUT AND
TO REACH AUDIENCES WITH THAT."

SO, THAT'S MY FIRST MEMORY
OF HOW IT HAPPENED

AND HOW TO KIND OF HOW IT WENT
TO A KIND OF A NEXT STAGE.

WOMAN: GREAT. THAT WAS ALMOST--
THAT WAS ALMOST EVERYTHING.

THE ONLY OTHER THING
I WANTED TO ASK, UM...

WAS YOU DID BRING
GINSBERG IN--

- YES, YES.
- ONCE, TWICE.

JOE: TWICE, YES, UH-HUH.

WOMAN: 'CAUSE ONE TIME
I INTERPRETED,

ONE TIME CINDY BARRETT
INTERPRETED,

IF YOU REMEMBER,
AT THE DINNER.

DID HE EVER MENTION ANYTHING
ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE

WITH WHEN HE'D DONE THAT
WORKSHOP WITH BOB PANARA?

THERE WAS AN INCREDIBLE WORKSHOP
THAT HE DID WHEN HE MET WITH

A DEAF POET BEFORE PETER
AND KENNY GOT GOING,

BEFORE DEBBIE GOT GOING.
- UH-HUH.

WOMAN: KIND OF A SEMINAL MOMENT
FOR DEAF POETRY

WHEN THEY HAD THIS
SORT OF WORKSHOP.

AND HE SAID IT MADE
A BIG IMPRESSION ON HIM,

AND HE TOLD ME ABOUT THAT. DID
HE MENTION ANYTHING LIKE THAT--

JOE: YEAH, HE DID. I REMEMBER
HIM, THE SAME THING

THAT WAS JUST KIND OF
A REALIZATION THAT

THERE IS A WHOLE OTHER LANGUAGE
OUT THERE FOR POETRY THAT

HE WAS UNAWARE OF.

AND THAT--YOU KNOW, THE SIGNING
OF AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE, UM--

I MEAN, AT THAT TIME, IT WAS--
WHAT HE WAS SEEING BEING SIGNED

WAS, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY,
IT WAS JUST A SIGNING OF

KIND OF WHAT WOULD BE
A BASIC SORT OF POETRY.

I MEAN, IT WASN'T POETRY
THAT WAS DESIGNED

FOR AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE
THAT MUCH.

BUT I REMEMBER HIM BEING VERY
IMPRESSED BY IT AND THINKING,

"YOU KNOW, THIS IS--YEAH,
THERE'S SOMETHING REALLY

UNIQUE ABOUT THIS."

YEAH, I DO REMEMBER THAT.
MM-HMM.

WOMAN: GREAT. WONDERFUL.
THANK YOU.

THANKS FOR GOING THROUGH
THAT ALL AGAIN.

- ALL RIGHT.
- ONE MORE THING.

CAN I GET YOU
TO SPELL YOUR NAME?

- YES.
- FOR THE CAMERA.

JOE: OH, YOU WANT ME TO JUST
DO IT FOR THE CAMERA?

- YES, SIR.
- OK. JOE FLAHERTY,

F-L-A-H-E-R-T-Y.

MAN: AND YOU ARE THE...

JOE: EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
OF WRITERS & BOOKS.

MAN: THANK YOU.

[LOUD TONE]
WOMAN: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

- MM-HMM.
- [WOMAN CONTINUES INDISTINCTLY]

- SURE.
- I'LL HAVE WENDY COME IN...

WOMAN: WHAT I'M GONNA
ASK YOU TO BEGIN WITH

IS BACK IN THE TIME OF WHICH
WE'RE SPEAKING IN THE EIGHTIES.

THINGS STARTED TO HAPPEN
AND BE CHANGING IN TERMS OF WHAT

ASL WAS AND WHETHER THERE WAS
EVEN THIS THING CALLED POETRY.

AND, AS YOU KNOW, THERE
WAS TENSION ABOUT WHETHER
THE PEOPLE WOULD EVEN--

DEAF PEOPLE WOULD EVEN
CALL IT POETRY.

SO, JUST ANYWHERE YOU
WANT TO START TALKING

ABOUT WHERE YOU WHERE AT
AND WHAT YOU SAW

AND HOW YOU GOT INVOLVED
WITH THE WHOLE SCENE.

WENDY: WELL, I WALKED INTO
THE DEAF COMMUNITY FAIRLY NAIVE,

AND I WAS AN ENGLISH TEACHER
AND A POET.

AND SO, I WAS AN ENGLISH TEACHER
AND A POET TRYING TO UNDERSTAND

THE DEAF COMMUNITY.

SO, THE MOMENT
WAS REALLY RIPE FOR ME,

BECAUSE I THINK THERE WERE
A COUPLE OF MOMENTS

THAT MADE ME DECIDE THAT
EVEN THOUGH I REALLY STRUGGLED
WITH SIGN LANGUAGE--

SIGN LANGUAGE DID NOT
COME EASILY TO ME--

THAT IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE
FOR ME TO CONTINUE

ON THIS ROAD I HAD SET,
INSTEAD OF JUST WITHDRAW

AND BECOME A TEACHER
WITH HEARING STUDENTS.

AND ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS
HAPPENED EARLY ON

WHEN I WAS
A COMMUNICATIONS COUNSELOR.

AND I WAS SITTING IN AN OFFICE
WITH A KID, AND THAT MOMENT CAME

AT THE END OF THE CONFERENCE

WHEN WE'D DONE EVERYTHING
WE WERE SUPPOSED TO DO

AND THE KID WAS
STILL SITTING THERE.

AND I STARTED TO TELL
ABOUT WHY I LOVED THE SNOW,

ESPECIALLY REALLY COLD,
SNOWY DAYS

AND ABOUT HOW IF YOU'RE OUT
IN ROCHESTER BY YOURSELF,

YOU FEEL REALLY ALONE
AND THERE'S NO ONE OUT

AND IT'S REALLY COLD AND YOU
FEEL REALLY BRAVE AND ALONE.

AND THEN YOU SEE SOMEBODY
COMING FROM A DISTANCE,

AND YOU CAN'T SEE HIM,
IT'S KIND OF HAZY

'CAUSE OF ALL THE SNOW.

AND THEN THERE COMES A MOMENT...

WHEN IT ALL CLEARS UP, AND IT'S
LIKE THERE'S A BOWL OVER YOU,

AND THE TWO OF YOU
ARE ALONE TOGETHER.

AND IT'S LIKE YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU
JUST KIND OF NOD AT EACH OTHER,

AND YOU'RE THE TWO--YOU'RE THE
ONLY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.

YOU KNOW? AND THEN THEY...

AND I WAS ABLE TO TELL THAT.

AND FOR THE FIRST TIME, I FELT
LIKE MYSELF IN THE LANGUAGE,

AS A PERSON WHO IS ARTICULATE
AND SAYS THINGS POETICALLY.

AND IT WAS EVEN BETTER
IN SIGN LANGUAGE

THAN I COULD HAVE EVER
MADE IT IN ENGLISH

BECAUSE OF THE SPATIAL RELATIONS
AND THE VISUAL NATURE

OF WHAT I WAS TRYING
TO COMMUNICATE.

AND SO THAT SAID,
AFTER THAT MOMENT,

I REMEMBER THIS HUGE
FEELING OF RELIEF.

YOU CAN BE YOURSELF
IN THIS NEW LANGUAGE.

AND THEN, I WAS--I GOT
TO KNOW SOME PEOPLE,

AND I DIDN'T KNOW JIM VERY WELL.

AND JIM HAD THIS IDEA THAT
HE WAS GONNA DO SOMETHING

WITH DEAF POETRY, AND HE WAS
TALKING TO ME ABOUT IT.

AND I WAS SAYING, "OH,
I KNOW SOMEBODY ELSE

WHO'S INTERESTED IN IT."

WHY, IT MIGHT EVEN
HAVE BEEN KENNY.

AND I SAID, "OH--"
AND JIM WAS LIKE,

"WELL, IF THEY'RE
INTERESTED IN IT,

WHY AREN'T THEY DOING SOMETHING
WITH IT?" HA HA HA!

AND I THOUGHT,
"THIS GUY'S INTERESTING."

SO, WHEN JIM STARTED ORGANIZING
TO HAVE THE CONFERENCE,

WE WERE FRIENDS
BY THAT POINT

THROUGH THE POETRY COMMUNITY,
BECAUSE HE WAS WRITING

ENGLISH LANGUAGE POETRY AND
PUBLISHING "ACTION" MAGAZINE,

AND I HAD STARTED TO HAVE
SOME DEAF FRIENDS

BECAUSE THERE WAS THIS SIGN
LANGUAGE POETRY THING HAPPENING.

I MEAN, THIS HAPPENED
GRADUALLY THROUGH ALL OF THIS

AND BECAUSE I HAD SOMETHING
IN COMMON WITH SOMEBODY

WHO DID POETRY.

IT WAS NOT AN ARTIFICIAL ATTEMPT
TO HAVE A FRIENDSHIP.

AND JIM CAME TO ME ONE DAY,
AND HE WAS REALLY FRUSTRATED.

AND HE SAID, "EVERYBODY'S
GIVING ME A HARD TIME.

"EVERYBODY HAS A DIFFERENT IDEA
OF HOW TO DO THIS

AND THEN THEY DON'T SHOW UP TO
MEETINGS," AND DA DA DA DA DA.

AND I SAID TO--AND I THINK
HE WAS MEETING WITH DEBBIE

AND PETER AND PATRICK GRAYBILL

AND THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN
ONE OTHER PERSON,

AND I SAID, "JIM, YOU WANT THIS
SO BADLY, BUT IT ISN'T YOURS.

"IT'S THE DEAF PEOPLE'S.

"SO, YOU HAVE TO
CALL THEIR BLUFF.

"YOU HAVE TO SAY,
'I WANT TO DO THIS,

"'BUT I CAN'T
DO THIS ALONE.

SO, IF YOU'RE NOT
SUPPORTING ME--'"

'CAUSE THEY WERE ALL, LIKE,
"WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO?

WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO?
WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO?"

YOU KNOW? AND WHEN HE FINALLY
SAID, "WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO?

"THIS IS YOURS. IF YOU'RE
NOT DOING IT,

"IF YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED,
EVEN THOUGH THIS HAS BEEN

"THE WHOLE REASON WHY
I LEARNED SIGN LANGUAGE,

IT ISN'T HAPPENING."

THEN IT STARTED TO GO.

AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS,
YOU KNOW, A BIG MOMENT

BECAUSE HE IS A VERY
VISIONARY PERSON

AND A HARD-WORKING PERSON.

AND HE WAS GONNA
MAKE IT HAPPEN,

BUT HE NEEDED TO MAKE SURE
HE HAD BUY-IN.

WOMAN: ARE YOU SPEAKING ABOUT
THE TIMES OF, LIKE, JAZZBERRY'S

AND GETTING THE PAINTED ROPE
THING GOING WITH ...,

OR ARE YOU ALREADY--

WENDY: I'M TALKING
ABOUT THE CONFERENCE.

- THE CONFERENCE.
- THE CONFERENCE ITSELF, YES.

WENDY: HE DECIDED TO
DO THE CONFERENCE--

- DECIDED TO PUT THAT ON.
- YEAH.

BECAUSE THAT WAS
PRETTY MAJOR EFFORT.

IT TOOK COLLABORATION
AMONG A LOT OF PEOPLE.

WOMAN: HOW ABOUT BEFORE THAT
WHEN HE AND TODD DID TOGETHER

THE PAINTED ROPE SERIES
OR FRAYED ROPE SERIES?

- I CAN'T REMEMBER.
- PAINTED ROPE.

WOMAN: PAINTED ROPE SERIES,

WHERE HE WAS BRINGING
INTERPRETERS IN

TO SHOW THE DEAF PEOPLE
THE HEARING POETRY

AND THEN STARTED INCORPORATING--
AND WERE YOU--I KNOW THAT YOU--

WENDY: YEAH, I WAS
ONE OF THE READERS.

I WAS ONE OF THE HEARING
READERS, AND, UM...

I THINK THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE
TIME DONNA INTERPRETED FOR ME.

AND I REALLY--THERE ARE FEW
PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERPRETERS

WHO REALLY WERE WONDERFUL
POETRY INTERPRETERS

BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTOOD
WHAT THEY WERE INTERPRETING.

AND THEY GOT, I THINK, TO BE
VERY, VERY GOOD INTERPRETERS

BY BEING ABLE TO BE SO FLEXIBLE

WITH THE WAY LANGUAGE
WORKS IN POETRY.

AND I WAS REALLY--I FELT REALLY
PRIVILEGED TO SEE THEIR WORK.

SO, WHEN THERE WOULD BE BIG,
REALLY IMPORTANT POETS LIKE

ALLEN GINSBERG IN TOWN,
TO SEE THEM INTERPRETED

BY REALLY GOOD INTERPRETERS
REALLY EXPANDED MY IDEA

OF HOW SIGN LANGUAGE
COULD HELP--

COULD WORK, YOU KNOW.

AND THE SAME THING
THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

I WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH AT THAT
POINT IN WATCHING SIGN LANGUAGE

TO NECESSARILY GET IT ALL
WITHOUT A VOICE INTERPRETER.

NOWADAYS, I REALLY WISH THERE
WERE NO VOICE INTERPRETERS,

BUT I UNDERSTAND THAT NOT
EVERYBODY--YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

BUT AT THAT POINT, I REALLY
NEEDED THE VOICE INTERPRETERS.

AND...THE OTHER THING
THAT MADE IT POSSIBLE

FOR ME TO LEARN SIGN LANGUAGE--

AND I'VE SINCE LEARNED THAT
THIS IS HOW I LEARNED TO SP--

I LOOK BACK. THIS IS HOW
I LEARNED SPANISH.

IF I LEARNED FRENCH BETTER,
THIS IS HOW I'LL LEARN FRENCH.

I HAD TO LOOK AT THE POETRY,

BECAUSE, FOR ME,
I MAY BE A LITTLE A.D.D.

I GET BORED EASILY.

SO, I'M WATCHING PEOPLE TALK
ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE GONNA HAVE

FOR LUNCH ON A VIDEOTAPE
JUST DOESN'T DO IT FOR ME.

IT'S NOT--IT'S NOT A MEATY
ENOUGH LANGUAGE TO WATCH

AGAIN AND AGAIN AND TRY AND
GET THE LANGUAGE OUT OF.

BUT WATCHING--I WOULD WATCH
CLAYTON VALLI'S STUFF,

I WOULD WATCH PATRICK'S STUFF,

I WOULD WATCH TEDDY'S STUFF
OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN

UNTIL I UNDERSTOOD
EVERY LITTLE NUANCE.

AND, YOU KNOW,
THE 50th TIME THROUGH,

I'D SEE SOMETHING
I HADN'T SEEN.

I HAD TO WATCH IT
AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

AND I COULD DO THAT
BECAUSE OF VIDEOTAPE.

AND IT REALLY ENRICHED
MY AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE
ENORMOUSLY

BECAUSE I MEMORIZED
THOSE POEMS.

IT GAVE ME--IT GAVE ME...

A REPERTOIRE OF MOVES
IN THE LANGUAGE

THAT I WOULDN'T
HAVE HAD OTHERWISE.

WOMAN: MM-HMM. SO, YOU THOUGHT,
LIKE, YOU EVEN GOT BETTER AT--

IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING WAY
OF LOOKING AT IT.

YOU LEARNED THE LANGUAGE
FOCUSING AT THE POETRY

AND THE POETIC CONSTRUCTS
OF HOW THE LANGUAGE WORKS.

WENDY: YEAH, BECAUSE IT
BREAKS IT DOWN,

AND IT'S SO--IT'S SO DISTILLED.

WOMAN: RIGHT, RIGHT.
IT GIVES YOU MORE OF AN IDEA

OF THE EVERYDAY AND MUNDANE

TO LOOK AT THE METAPHORIC
AND ALL THAT. THAT'S COOL.

WENDY: WELL, AND JUST EVEN THE
GRAMMATICAL STRUCTURE IS THERE.

- YOU KNOW?
- MM-HMM. MM-HMM.

I MEAN, I'M NOT SAYING
I DIDN'T HAVE TO DO A LOT

OF OTHER THINGS
TO LEARN THE LANGUAGE,

BUT THAT'S WHERE THE
REAL JOY IN LEARNING IT

OTHER THAN IN CONVERSATION
WITH REAL PEOPLE WAS.

WOMAN: DID YOU--WERE
YOU AWARE OF, UM...

THE TENSION AT THE TIME ABOUT
WHETHER WHAT THESE PEOPLE--

WHAT DEBBIE AND
WHAT PETER AND WHAT--

WENDY: OH, GOD, YES.

WOMAN: WHETHER IT WAS REALLY
CALLED POETRY OR NOT?

WENDY: YEAH.

WOMAN: MAYBE YOU COULD TALK
A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

WENDY: WELL...

THE POETS NEVER HAD ANY
REAL QUESTION ABOUT IT,

I THINK, IN CERTAIN WAYS.

I MEAN...

THE DEAF PEOPLE DIDN'T--THERE
WAS THIS KIND OF THING--WELL--

THERE WAS A KIND OF
A RESISTANCE TO POETRY

BECAUSE POETRY HAD ALWAYS BEEN
THE ENEMY IN ENGLISH CLASS.

IT'S THE STUFF
YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND

BECAUSE IT'S BASED ON ENGLISH.

AND THEN, UM...

AND THE DESIRE TO CALL
WHAT WE DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

THEN THERE WERE THE PEOPLE,
THE SAME PEO--

I THINK THERE WAS SOME
RESISTANCE FROM THE PEOPLE

WHO WERE LIKE,
"IS ASL A LANGUAGE?

IS THIS POETRY?
IS THIS REALLY POETRY?"

IT WAS NOT MAJOR OUT THERE,
BUT IT WAS KIND OF LIKE,

"THIS CAN'T BE--THIS
CAN'T BE THE EQUIVALENT

"OF ENGLISH POETRY.

"I MEAN, IT DOESN'T
HAVE, YOU KNOW,

MILLENNIA OF HERITAGE IN IT."

WELL, BULLSHIT,
BUT YOU KNOW...

I MEAN BECAUSE MOST OF THE
PEOPLE DOING IT WERE BILINGUAL,

AND IT HAD A MILLENNIA
OF HERITAGE FROM THAT.

AND IT HAD A HISTORY WITHIN
THE DEAF COMMUNITY, TOO.

JUST BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE
RECORDS OF MOST OF THAT,

DOESN'T MEAN IT DIDN'T EXIST.

SO, I NEVER HAD A LOT OF
PATIENCE FOR THAT ARGUMENT.

WHAT WAS INTERESTING TO ME
WAS THE PURIST VIEW

VERSUS WHAT PETER AND KENNY AND
DEBBIE ARE DOING IS NOT POETRY,

BUT WHAT CLAYTON VALLI
IS DOING IS POETRY.

AND WHEN I DID MY THING
ABOUT DUETS, I GOT IN TROUBLE

BECAUSE MY EXAMPLE
WAS PETER AND DEBBIE.

AND THEY SAID, "YEAH, WELL,
THAT'S VERY INTERESTING,

BUT THAT'S NOT POETRY."

AND I SAID TWO THINGS--FIRST OF
ALL, "I THINK IT IS POETRY.

"I THINK IT'S
PERFORMANCE POETRY.

"IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT KIND OF
POETRY THAN THE SONNET.

"YOU KNOW, YOURS
MAY BE A SONNET,

AND THIS IS
A PERFORMANCE POEM."

OK, SECONDLY, "I MAY HAVE THE
WRONG EXAMPLE TO PROVE IT TO YOU

"BUT I THINK MY DUET THEORY
IS STILL RIGHT...

WITH ANY EXAMPLE."

YOU KNOW. AND THE THEORY
WAS BASICALLY

THAT THE SAME RULES
THAT APPLY,

THE LINGUISTS HAD COME
UP WITH THIS STUFF ABOUT

HOW YOU USE YOUR HANDS
IN SIGN LANGUAGE.

YOU HAVE TO USE THEM DOING THE
SAME THINGS SIMULTANEOUSLY,

DOING OPPOSITE THINGS,

OR ONE HAS TO STAY STILL
WHILE THE OTHER MOVES.

I THINK THOSE WERE THE THREE.

AND I WAS TRYING TO SHOW
THAT WHEN YOU DO A DUET,

FOR THE SAME VISUAL REASONS
THAT THE AUDIENCE

CAN'T TAKE IT IN
ANY OTHER WAY,

YOU EITHER HAVE TO
PASS THE MOVEMENT ON--

YOU STOP, AND I START--

OR YOU HAVE TO BE DOING THE SAME
PARALLEL THING THAT I'M DOING

OR THE OPPOSITE THING
THAT I'M DOING.

OR THEN IT TURNS INTO
A DIALOGUE INTERACTION,

BUT THAT'S STOP-START,
STOP-START, TOO.

SO, THAT WAS KIND OF MY THEORY,
BUT IT WAS BEING--

PEOPLE WERE, LIKE, BEING
SKEPTICAL ABOUT IT BECAUSE...

IT WAS PETER AND DEBBIE
DOING SOMETHING

THAT LOOKED LIKE ACTING.

WOMAN: AND IS THIS REASON
COMING FROM THE DEAF COMMUNITY

OR THE HEARING COMMUNITY?

WENDY: DO YOU KNOW,
I THINK IT'S COMING FROM

THE LEGITIMACY ISSUE.

EVERYTHING WE--EVERYTHING THAT
IS DONE AROUND ASL IN THAT TIME

WAS A BID FOR LEGITIMACY.

- FOR THE LANGUAGE?
- FOR THE LANGUAGE, EXACTLY.

SO, IF IT WAS GONNA BE
A LEGITIMATE LANGUAGE,

IT HAD TO HAVE A LITERATURE.

AND THEN, OF COURSE, THE
ARGUMENT IS "WHAT'S THE CANON?

WHAT'S LEGITIMATE LITERATURE?"

AND IF IT DOESN'T LOOK
LIKE ROBERT FROST,

ARE WE GONNA GET
LEGITIMACY FOR IT?

NOW, INTERESTINGLY,
I DON'T THINK CLAYTON

WAS THE HEAVY HITTER
ON THAT ONE.

I MEAN, CLAYTON, I THINK,
WAS PRETTY ACCEPTING,

BUT HE WAS QUESTIONING,
YOU KNOW.

AND I THINK CLAYTON VALLI--

I THINK THE WORLD
OF CLAYTON VALLI.

I THINK HE'S...
AN AMAZING SPIRIT

AND, YOU KNOW, SO, I DON'T--

BUT HE WAS QUESTIONING IT,
AND IT WAS MAINLY...

WAS IT THE SEPALAS OR--
I CAN'T REMEMBER.

THERE WERE A COUPLE OF PEOPLE

WHO WERE BORN DEAF
OF DEAF FAMILIES,

WHO WERE REALLY, LIKE, TRYING
TO SAY, "THIS IS MY TRADEMARK.

THIS IS WHAT IT IS BECAUSE
THIS IS WHAT I DO."

- MM-HMM.
- AND I FELT--

AND SO, I THINK IT WAS
QUESTIONS ABOUT,

"WELL, PETER HADN'T GROWN UP
WITH SIGN LANGUAGE."

- THAT WAS AN ISSUE.
- AND NEITHER HAD DEBBIE.

SO, HOW COULD WHAT
THEY'D BE DOING--

THE QUESTION WASN'T--
AND I AS A HEARING PERSON

WHO KNEW A MODICUM
OF SIGN LANGUAGE--

MY QUESTION--

I THINK THEIR QUESTION WASN'T
SO MUCH "WAS IT POETRY?"

BUT "WAS IT ASL?"

'CAUSE TO ME, IT WAS POETRY.

THERE'S A BOOK CALLED
"STRIKE A BLOW AND DIE,"

THE STORY OF THE
JOHN CHILEMBWE UPRISING,

AND I THINK IT'S IN MALAWI
OR SOMETHING.

IT'S IN PIDGIN ENGLISH.

THERE ARE TIMES WHEN YOU
CAN'T EVEN UNDERSTAND

WHAT HE'S SAYING,
BUT IT'S BEAUTIFUL.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL,
AND I CHALLENGE ANYBODY TO SAY

JUST BECAUSE IT'S NOT
A PERFECT EXAMPLE

OF NATIVE SPEAKING OF ENGLISH,

THAT IT ISN'T A GREAT
WORK OF LITERATURE.

SO, THAT'S--THAT'S WHERE
I'M COMING FROM.

IT'S--IT'S LIKE...
EMILY DICKINSON SAYS.

"HOW DO I KNOW IT'S POETRY?

IF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
COMES OFF, IT'S POETRY."

AND, YOU KNOW, THE REST I LEAVE
TO THE LINGUISTICS PEOPLE.

[WOMAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY]

WENDY: YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.

WOMAN: LOT OF
HOT DEBATE ABOUT IT.

DID YOU--WELL, SO, GO A LITTLE
BIT MORE INTO YOUR DUETS

A LITTLE BIT MORE
ABOUT THAT.

WENDY: WELL, IT BASICALLY--

IT WAS--I THINK IT WAS THAT
I WAS FASCINATED THAT

YOU COULD DO A DUET.

I WAS SEEING THIS HAPPENING IN
PERFORMANCE POETRY IN ENGLISH,

WHERE PEOPLE WOULD BE
TALKING OVER EACH OTHER.

I'D BE TALKING AND TODD BEERS
WOULD BE TALKING

AT THE SAME TIME.

AND SOMETIMES THAT WORKED,
BUT MOSTLY IT DIDN'T.

AND SO, I WAS INTERESTED IN
WHAT DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO DO

TO HAVE A GOOD DUET.

AND...I THINK--I THINK
I WOULD ARGUE THAT

THE STUFF THAT WAS CROSSOVER,
WHERE PEOPLE WERE TALKING

OVER EACH OTHER, WHERE
I'M READING ONE POEM

AND HE'S READING ANOTHER
POEM SIMULTANEOUSLY.

IT HAS MUSICAL INTEREST, BUT...

IT'S NOT ACCESSIBLE POETRY.

IT'S LANGUAGE POETRY--

LANGUAGE POETRY, WHERE WE ARE
PLAYING WITH HOW LANGUAGE WORKS.

I'M NOT SAYING
THAT'S NOT POETRY,

BUT I THINK THAT IN MOST DUETS,
THERE ARE SOME RULES ABOUT

HOW YOU GET SOMETHING ACROSS
SO THAT THE AUDIENCE CAN

ACTUALLY TAKE IT IN
OR TAKE IT IN.

WOMAN: MM-HMM. AND SO,
WHAT YOU SAW--

I'M ASSUMING THAT THE ONE
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

IS PSYCHOTIC MEMORY.

WENDY: I THINK SO, YEAH.

WOMAN: HAMBURGER--FLAT.
A HAMBURGER'S FLAT.

- YEAH. YES, YES, YES. THAT ONE.
- PEOPLE DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD.

WOMAN: DID YOU ALSO
LOOK AT, UM...

THERE WAS QUEBEC--THE POETS
FROM QUEBEC WHO CAME DOWN,

JOHANNA AND SERGE.

WENDY: I DID SEE THEM.
I DON'T REMEMBER--

WOMAN: THAT WASN'T
PART OF YOUR WORK, WAS IT?

'CAUSE THEY DID DO A THING

WHERE THEY DID
A BEAUTIFUL NATURE SCENE

THAT WAS LIKE A DUET,
ALSO, THAT I--

WENDY: I THINK I LOOKED
AT THAT, TOO,

BUT I DIDN'T USE IT
AS MY EXAMPLE.

WOMAN: OK. IT WOULD BE
ANOTHER ONE--

WENDY: I MEAN, I WAS
DRAWING CONCLUSIONS

FROM A VERY SMALL SET
OF EXAMPLES, WHICH IS--

WOMAN: YEAH, THERE WASN'T
MUCH GOING ON.

WENDY: YEAH, IN DUETS,
THERE WASN'T A LOT.

WOMAN: RIGHT. I KNOW THAT NTD
DID STUFF WHERE THERE WERE

GROUP HOMES, WHERE THEY
CREATED AND STUFF LIKE THAT,

BUT IT WASN'T A SUSTAINED--
IT WASN'T A SUSTAINED THING

THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
THAT TOOK A THING--

WENDY: RIGHT. AND I DON'T--
I HAVEN'T SEEN A LOT SINCE.

WOMAN: YEAH, I KNOW.

WENDY: I MEAN, THE BREAKUP
OF THE DEBBIE-PETER TEAM

WAS A BIG BLOW,

'CAUSE THEY WERE DOING
REALLY INTERESTING STUFF.

WOMAN: PETER AND KENNY
DO A PIECE CALLED

"E = mc2"...

WENDY: YES, I'VE SEEN THAT.

WOMAN: THAT I DON'T KNOW
IF IT WOULD FIT OR NOT

BECAUSE THEY CREATE SO MANY
THINGS THAT ARE--

THE IMAGE ONLY COMES BY BOTH
OF THEM BEING PART OF IT,

NOT BY PLAYING
OFF OF EACH OTHER IN--

WENDY: RIGHT. WELL, AND THERE
YOU'VE GOT ANOTHER FACTOR.

WHAT YOU'VE GOT IS TABLEAU.

WOMAN: OH, RIGHT.

WENDY: THAT'S ANOTHER THING
YOU CAN DO IN A DUET.

YOU CAN STOP THE FRAME
AND GIVE US A TABLEAU PICTURE.

AND THEN SOME PART OF IT
CAN MOVE...

EVER SO SLIGHTLY,
BUT IT'S NOT LIKE

YOU'RE BOTH SAYING
DIFFERENT THINGS.

WOMAN: MM-HMM. DOES IT EXTEND--

SO, A TABLEAU WOULD
ALSO EXTEND TO...

WELL, THERE'S SERGE AND JOHANNA
AND PETER AND KENNY

DOING THE HOLOCAUST PIECE.

AND THERE ARE
SEVERAL PARTS OF THAT--

WENDY: I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY OF
THIS STUFF IN SO LONG,

IT'S HARD FOR ME
TO REMEMBER.

WOMAN: YEAH, THAT'S WHY I WANT
TO GET YOU THE SAMPLE DVD THING.

WENDY: AND I REMEMBER KENNY
HAVING THIS TROUBLE, TOO.

YOU KNOW, WE WOULD
RUN IT UP THE FLAGPOLE

AS AN ELECTIVE AND NOT
ALWAYS GET A CLASS.

- MM-HMM.
- RIGHT.

- OK?
- YEP.

WOMAN: UMM...

WENDY: AND I REMEMBER ONE TIME
I HAD DEBBIE DOING A CLASS,

AND I WANTED TO GET
A LOT OF PEOPLE IN TO SEE HER.

SHE WAS GONNA TEACH HOW TO
CREATE POEMS IN SIGN LANGUAGE

AND TEACH ABOUT TRANSFORMATIONS
AND ALL OF THIS OTHER STUFF,

ALL THIS WONDERFUL STUFF.

AND I FINALLY FIGURED OUT,
'CAUSE I HAD SOMEBODY ELSE--

I MIGHT HAVE HAD PETER
DOING A WORKSHOP,

AND VERY FEW PEOPLE SHOWED UP.

I STARTED CHARGING FOR IT...
YOU KNOW.

AND THE FACT THAT YOU HAD
TO PAY $5.00 TO BE IN IT

MEANT THAT PEOPLE REALIZED IT
MIGHT BE WORTH SOMETHING.

HA HA! YOU KNOW?

IT'S JUST--IT'S JUST FUNNY
HOW THAT IS.

WOMAN: HA HA! SO YOU HAD TAKERS
WHEN THEY HAD TO PAY.

WENDY: RIGHT. AND DO YOU
REMEMBER THERE WAS

DOWN IN THE BASEMENT, THERE WAS
A LITTLE PUB-LIKE RESTAURANT?

AND THERE WAS A--WAS IT
A WEEKLY OR A MONTHLY...

WOMAN: THIS WAS BEFORE I GOT--
THE CELLAR, YEAH.

WENDY: SHOWCASE.

YEAH, IF YOU COULD
TALK ABOUT THAT,

BECAUSE I WASN'T THERE YET,

SO I WOULD LOVE YOU
TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

- THAT WAS THE CELLAR.
- THERE WAS, LIKE, AN OPEN MIC,

WHERE--NO MICROPHONE--
BUT, YOU KNOW,

WHERE PEOPLE WOULD PERFORM,

AND THAT'S WHERE EDDIE SWAYZE
REALLY FIRST STARTED PERFORMING

AND DOING ANYTHING.

AND THERE WERE A COUPLE
OF OTHER PEOPLE.

AND RITA STRAUBHAAR DID
A COUPLE OF REALLY NICE PIECES.

SUSAN DID SOME PIECES.

JUST, UM, JOHN NATHANIEL,
UM...

WHOSE NAME IS ESCAPING ME.

EVERYBODY--PEOPLE WHO HAD AN
INKLING TOWARDS THAT KIND OF--

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE KIND OF
INTERESTED, TRIED THINGS.

AND THERE WERE MANY THINGS.

I MEAN, YOU SEE THIS
IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE POETRY.

YOU'LL GET PEOPLE WHO,
IN THEIR EARLY 20s,

WRITE 3 OR 4 REALLY NICE POEMS,
BUT IT'S NOT THEIR LIFE,

AND THEY NEVER
WRITE ANYTHING AGAIN.

BUT BECAUSE THERE
WAS THIS VENUE,

WHERE YOU COULD TRY IT
AND SHOW IT OFF,

PEOPLE WERE TRYING
TO COMPOSE STUFF

WHO HAD NEVER TRIED BEFORE,
AND IT WAS REALLY LOTS OF FUN.

AND PATRICK WOULD--I THINK THEY
WOULD HAVE A FEATURE PERSON

FROM TIME TO TIME
OR MAYBE EVERY TIME.

AND PATRICK WOULD GO DOWN
AND DO STUFF, AND...

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT KIND OF
DISAPPOINTED ME OVER THE YEARS

WAS THAT PEOPLE
WOULD GET A REPERTOIRE,

AND THEN THEY WOULD FREEZE IT.

AND THIS HAPPENS, I THINK,
A LOT WITH PERFORMANCE POETRY

BECAUSE--AND IT'S NOT JUST
IN THE DEAF WORLD--

BECAUSE YOU GET A CERTAIN
AUDIENCE REACTION,

AND YOU'RE GOING IN FRONT OF
DIFFERENT AUDIENCES ALL THE TIME

SO YOU DON'T REALLY NEED
A NEW REPERTOIRE

UNLESS YOU'RE WRITING
THIS STUFF FOR YOURSELF.

AND SO, UM, BRILLIANT
POET LIKE PATRICK

HAS A VERY SMALL...OEUVRE--
I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU SAY THAT,

THAT FRENCH WORD THAT MEANS
YOUR "BODY OF WORK."

AND, UM...

IT'S KIND OF INTEREST--
BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENED WAS,

PEOPLE DEVELOPED STUFF REALLY
EARLY ON, A LOT OF STUFF.

AND THEN THEY JUST KIND OF...

HAD IT, AND THEY HAD
THEIR EXPLANATION FOR IT.

AND I THINK IT SUFFERED SOME
FOR BEING STUDIED,

FOR BEING AN ACADEMIC TOPIC
SO EARLY ON,

RATHER THAN JUST
AN ORGANIC COMMUNITY ART.

BECAUSE IT WAS
AN ACADEMIC SUBJECT,

BECAUSE IT WAS BEING
LOOKED AT SO CLOSELY,

PEOPLE WERE MAYBE NOT
AS EXPERIMENTAL

AS THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN,

WITH, YOU KNOW,
WITH SOME EXCEPTIONS.

WOMAN: HMM...INTERESTING.

I KNOW PETER AND KENNY
WORK HARD TO KEEP DOING STUFF,

AND DEBBIE CONSIDERS HERSELF--
ALTHOUGH, SHE'S TEACHING

AND SHE'S DOING A LOT
OF OTHER STUFF IN SWEDEN,

SHE STILL CONSIDERS HERSELF
PRIMARILY A POET NOW.

SO, SHE'S STILL VERY ACTIVE.

BUT PATRICK TOLD ME, "I'M TIRED.
I'M NOT GONNA DO STUFF ANYMORE.

WHO'S NEXT?"

WENDY: YEAH.

WOMAN: AND MARLA DOES
JUST SPORADIC STUFF,

LIKE I SAID, IN
THE SERVICE OF HER--

WENDY: BUT I'M NOT EVEN TALKING
ABOUT IN THE LONG RUN.

I'M TALKING ABOUT,
PEOPLE PRODUCED--

AND MAYBE SOME OF THEM
HAD ONE IN--

THEY'D WRITTEN ONE POEM,
YOU KNOW?

THEY'D WRITTEN ONE POEM, AND
MAYBE IT HAD GOTTEN SOME PLAY

ALONG THE WAY, AND THEY'D
FORGOTTEN ABOUT IT.

AND THEN WHEN THIS WHOLE THING
OF DEAF POETRY CAME UP,

THEY RELEASED THAT POEM.

WOMAN: MM-HMM.

WENDY: AND PEOPLE SAID
"OOH! AHH!" YOU KNOW.

"THAT'S WONDERFUL!"

AND THEN THEY MAYBE MADE
5 MORE, ENOUGH FOR A SET.

THEY MADE--THEY PUT TOGETHER
A SET, AND THAT WAS THEIR SET.

[WOMAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY]

WENDY: AND THEN THAT
BECAME ONE VIDEOTAPE,

THEN THAT WAS KIND OF...

WOMAN: THAT WAS IT.
MM-HMM, MM-HMM.

WENDY: AND OF COURSE, ALSO,
"WHO'S NEXT?" WAS A BIG ISSUE.

I MEAN, IF THERE HAD BEEN A REAL
RUSH FOR A NEXT GENERATION

RIGHT THEN AND THERE,
IT WOULD HAVE BEEN GREAT.

BUT...NOT, NOT REALLY.

WOMAN: YEAH, NOT REALLY.

JEREMY CAREAU--
DO YOU KNOW HIM?

WENDY: NO, I DON'T.

WOMAN: DEAF YOUNG GUY,
NICE, NICE GUY,

VERY TALENTED--TRYING TO GET
THINGS GOING AGAIN IN ROCHESTER,

NOT HAVING A WHOLE
LOT OF LUCK.

JOE SAID, "SEND HIM OVER,"
AND HE WOULD...

HE TRIED TO DO A SERIES...

WENDY: WELL, AND
THE OTHER THING IS,

I THINK THAT THE VIDEOTAPES
ALSO HAD AN INFLUENCE.

THEY BECAME THE FROZEN "HERE IT
IS, HERE'S THE VIDEOTAPE.

YOU DON'T NEED A LIVE POET.
YOU'VE GOT--"

OH, BUT NO, NO.
THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
SOME PEOPLE HAD THE VIDEOTAPES

AND THEN THE SCHOOLS
FOR THE DEAF,

THEY WERE SO
EXPENSIVE AT FIRST.

SO, THE KIDS WEREN'T
GROWING UP WITH IT.

SO, I DON'T KNOW.

WOMAN: NO, THAT'S A VERY
IMPORTANT POINT IS THAT

AND WHAT I'M HOPING
SOME OF THIS WILL DO

IS ALSO, LIKE,
GIVE TO CURRICULUM,

LIKE THE AGE KIDS STUDY
ENGLISH POETRY IN SCHOOL

AND RECITE IT AND
LEARN IT AND HATE IT,

BUT YOU DON'T GIVE THEM
ANYTHING IN THEIR LANGUAGE

TO GENERATE...

SO WHY WOULD THEY THINK
THAT THEY CAN CREATE POETRY

IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE WHEN THEY
HAVE NO ROLE MODELS IN THEIR--

WENDY: WELL, AND FOR
TRANSLATING ENGLISH POETRY

AND NOT ONLY, YOU KNOW,
NOT TO GIVE--NOT JUST TO GIVE

AN ASL EQUIVALENT,
BUT TO SAY,

"OK, SOMETHING IS
HAPPENING IN THIS POEM

"THAT THE HEARING PERSON
IS NOTICING,

AND THAT'S ALL THESE THIN
SOUNDS--THESE 'EEEs' AND 'IZZ.'"

THAT'S LIKE IF YOU ONLY
USED, YOU KNOW, LINES

RATHER THAN WHOLE HANDS.

WHOLE HANDS ARE MORE LIKE
"OHH"s AND "AHH"s.

WHEN YOU'RE TEACHING ENGLISH
AND YOU'RE TEACHING POETRY,

YOU CAN SAY, "OK, THIS POEM
HAS A RELAXED FEEL,

LIKE AS IF THE HANDS
WERE ALWAYS OPEN."

IT'S REALLY--IT'S...

YOU KNOW, POETRY'S HARD
TO EXPLAIN AS IT IS,

BUT TO HAVE SOME KIND
OF AN EQUIVALENT

AND TO BE ABLE TO SAY,
"IT'S LIKE THIS."

WOMAN: HOW WOULD YOU,
WHEN YOU WERE TEACHING IT--

THAT WAS GREAT, WHAT YOU WERE
JUST SHOWING ME.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER THINGS LIKE
THAT THAT YOU WOULD SHOW?

WHEN YOU HAD TO DO
DEMONSTRATIONS OF RHYTHM

OR RHYME OR ANY OF THOSE
KINDS OF GRAMMATICAL FEATURES

THAT CAN APPLY TO ASL
IN ITS OWN WAY,

WHAT WERE THE SORT OF THINGS
THAT YOU WOULD DO,

IF YOU REMEMBER?

WENDY: THERE IS ONE THING
I REMEMBER,

AND IT ISN'T REALLY
RELATED EXACTLY TO ASL.

BUT THERE'S A POEM BY
DICKINSON THAT, UM...

HAS THE GREAT LINE--
IT'S ABOUT A SNAKE.

AND YOU DON'T KNOW.

"A NARROW FELLOW IN THE GRASS
OCCASIONALLY RIDES.

YOU MAY HAVE SEEN HIM. IF YOU
DID HIS NOTICE SUDDEN IS."

AND THEN YOU GO DOWN,
DOWN, DOWN, DOWN.

"I NEVER SEE THIS FELLOW
ATTENDED OR ALONE WITHOUT...

A SHORTER BREATHING,"
OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT,

"AND ZERO AT THE BONE."

"AND ZERO AT THE BONE,"
JUST SAYING IT,

MAKES YOU GO..."UGHHH!"

AND I HAD TO SAY, "WELL, YOU
KNOW, COLDNESS WOULDN'T DO IT.

IT'S THE SOUND THAT DOES IT."

AND YOU CAN SEE IT
IN THE LIP READ. IT'S...

SO, YOU HAVE TO HAVE
SOME VISUAL EQUIVALENT

IF YOU'RE GONNA GET THIS ACROSS.

IN LIP READING,
YOU CAN SEE THAT,

THAT TENSION OF THAT "EEE"
AND THAT...YOU KNOW.

YOU CAN SEE IT. IT'S GOT TO DO
WITH YOUR VISCERAL REACTION

TO WHAT YOU PHYSICALLY DO
WHEN YOU SAY "ZERO."

WOMAN: HMM...

WENDY: SO, JUST BEING AWARE OF
AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE POETRY

AND HOW THE KIDS COULD GET
A VISUAL EQUIVALENT

AND, OF COURSE, I'M SURE
YOU'RE GONNA TALK ABOUT THIS.

ASL DOES SOMETHING THAT ANY
HEARING PERSON WHO KNOWS IT

IS REALLY JEALOUS OF,

AND THAT'S THOSE
TRANSFORMATIONS.

I MEAN, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE
SOMETHING ABOUT THAT, RIGHT?

WOMAN: YES, I WANNA
HEAR IT FROM YOU.

WENDY: OK, WELL...

IN ENGLISH,
YOU CAN HAVE A PUN,

AND YOU CAN HAVE A METAPHOR.

AND A METAPHOR IS WHEN YOU SAY
SOMETHING IS SOMETHING,

YOU KNOW, BUT YOU HAVE TO
KIND OF SAY BOTH THINGS.

OR MAYBE YOU DON'T.
YOU SAY...

"WATER YOUR HAIR
WITH OUR HAIR TONIC."

YOU KNOW, YOU'RE SAYING
HAIR IS GRASS, BUT--

AND IT'S KIND OF HIDDEN.

BUT THE BEST--THE BEST EXAMPLE
OF TRANSFORMATION, I THINK,

IS IN DEBBIE'S POEM,

WHERE "THROWING PAINT
ON THE SKY...

"BECOMES FIREWORKS...

BECOMES ASL."

AND SO IT'S--AT ONE POINT,
IT'S A PUN,

WHERE THIS MEANS "FIREWORKS"
AND "ASL" AT THE SAME TIME.

IT'S A PUN,

BUT THEY'RE EACH TRANSFORMING
INTO EACH OTHER.

AND THE IMPLICATION
OF THE PUN

IS THAT ALL OF THESE
THINGS ARE THE SAME.

ASL IS FIREWORKS,
ASL IS COLOR ON THE SKY.

ASL IS EXPRESSION.

AND TO HAVE ALL THOSE THINGS
HAPPENING AT ONCE,

WELL, I JUST DROOL
TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S--THAT--

EVERY LANGUAGE HAS
ITS OWN POETIC VIRTUES

THAT ANOTHER LANGUAGE
DOESN'T HAVE...

WHICH IS WHY IT'S KIND OF SAD

THAT SO MANY LANGUAGES
ARE DYING OFF.

[WOMAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY]

I DON'T--I'M NOT GONNA HAVE
A CHANCE TO ASK MANY PEOPLE THIS

SO I'M REALLY GLAD
THAT I GET YOU

BECAUSE YOU NOT ONLY
KNOW SIGN VERY WELL,

BUT YOU WERE A HEARING POET
WHO UTILIZED THE SERVICE OF

INTERPRETERS TO ENTRUST US WITH
GETTING YOUR POETRY OUT TO--

WENDY: OH, AND IT WAS
SO MUCH FUN.

WOMAN: AND IT WAS
A KICKASS EXPERIENCE.

I WONDER IF YOU COULD BE
ONE OF MY TALKING HEADS

ABOUT THE WHOLE PROCESS OF
WORKING WITH AN INTERPRETER

TO GET YOUR POETRY--

WENDY: OH, WE WERE SO YOUNG
AND SO--I MEAN,

I DON'T THINK WE
SLEPT MUCH BACK THEN.

AND WE WOULD GET TOGETHER,

AND THE INTERPRETER WOULD SPEND
AN HOUR WITH THE POET,

JUST GOING OVER, "NOW,
WHAT DOES THIS LINE MEAN?

WHAT DOES THIS LINE MEAN?
HOW DO YOU WANT IT INTERPRETED?"

AND IF IT HAD
MORE THAN ONE MEANING,

"DO WE HAVE TO DO BOTH
MEANINGS?" AND DA DA DA DA DA.

AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU
AND DONNA AND SUSAN

WOULD ASK SUCH...

I MEAN, SUCH WONDERFUL
QUESTIONS ABOUT THE POEMS

AND MAKE YOU THINK MORE
ABOUT YOUR OWN MEANINGS

IN A WAY THAT MAYBE YOU HADN'T.

AND YOU HAD TO
EXPLAIN THE POEM,

AND YOU'RE KIND OF LIKE,
"UM, I THINK..." HA HA HA!

BUT IT WAS ONE--AND--AND--

AND IT WAS A POET'S DREAM
TO HAVE ANYBODY

PAY THAT CLOSE ATTENTION TO
THEIR POEM IN FRONT OF THEM.

I MEAN, FAMOUS POETS.

THEY WRITE THEIR POEMS,
THEY SEND THEM OUT,

AND THEY HOPE
PEOPLE READ THEM.

AND IF THEY'RE REALLY LUCKY,
THEY'RE IN AN ANTHOLOGY

OR THEY HAVE A BOOK OF THEIR OWN
THAT SOMEBODY READS IN A CLASS

WHERE THEY ACTUALLY PAY
ATTENTION TO EVERY WORD

AND REALLY GET INTO IT.

AND TO HAVE SOMEBODY
VERY INTELLIGENT, BILINGUAL,

IN FRONT OF YOU, SAYING,
"NOW, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?"

AND GETTING INTO IT AND BEING
ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT IT

AND "HOW AM I GOING TO INTERPRET
THAT AND TRANSLATE THAT?"

IT WAS JUST SO MUCH FUN.

I MEAN, IT WAS A GREAT
EGO STROKE, TOO, REALLY.

WOMAN: HA HA HA!

WENDY: AND IT WAS FUN TO HAVE
THE INTERPRETER THERE.

FOR ONE THING, IT ALLOWED YOU
A DEAF AUDIENCE.

IT ALLOWED ME TO GIVE ACCESS
TO WHAT I DO IN POETRY

TO MY DEAF FRIENDS,

AND, AT THE SAME TIME,
I MEAN, YOU GUYS WERE JUST...

I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW IF ANYBODY
WAS LISTENING TO US AT ALL.

YOU KNOW, YOU WERE SO
BEAUTIFUL UP THERE,

DOING YOUR THING,
AND THEY WERE JUST LIKE...

"THAT'S--THAT'S AMAZING!"

YOU KNOW, IT MADE IT
SO MUCH MORE.

IT GAVE MORE DIMENSION
TO THE WHOLE THING.

WOMAN: AND YOU CHOSE NOT TO
SIGN THE STUFF YOURSELF.

WENDY: OH, GOD, YOU CAN'T
SIGN THE STUFF YOURSELF.

NO. I--UM--ACTUALLY...

I NEVER WAS GOOD ENOUGH.

I MEAN, THAT'S NOT
ENTIRELY TRUE.

IF I WROTE A POEM
IN SIGN LANGUAGE,

WHICH I DID WRITE A FEW,
I DID COMPOSE A FEW.

I WOULD PERFORM IT
IN SIGN LANGUAGE.

BUT...

UM...

I WAS NOT NECESSARILY
GOOD ENOUGH

TO DEVELOP MY OWN TRANSLATION,

NOR AM I A BEAUTIFUL
ENOUGH SIGNER,

NOR AM I SMOOTH ENOUGH
TO REALLY FEEL CONFIDENT

THAT I WOULD BE DOING
THE POEM JUSTICE.

THE OTHER THING I
WANTED TO SAY IS, UM...

STACY LAWRENCE AND I HAVE BEEN
TEACHING IN THE SUMMER.

WE TEACH--FOR THE LAST
2 YEARS AT CLASS

AND AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE
FOR KIDS

THROUGH STORIES AND POETRY.

AND I JUST REALLY FEEL LIKE
THIS IS THE WAY TO LEARN.

NOW, I KNOW THERE ARE
DIFFERENT KINDS OF BRAINS.

THERE ARE ANALYTICAL BRAINS

WHO HAVE TO LEARN ALL THE
STRUCTURE, ET CETERA, ET CETERA,

BUT IF THEY'RE LIKE ME, HAVING
SOMETHING MEATY LIKE POETRY

TO MEMORIZE, TO EXPRESS,

STARTS TO TEACH YOU THE GRAMMAR,

STARTS TO TEACH YOU
ALL OF THAT.

AND, OF COURSE,
YOU NEED A HUMAN BEING

THAT YOU NEED TO CONVERSE WITH

OR YOU'LL NEVER
LEARN THE LANGUAGE.

WOMAN: YEAH.

HE WAS A VERY COOL GUY.

AND THAT STUFF PROBABLY CAME UP
MORE IN THE LIT CONCERTS

IN '91, '98, BECAUSE ALL KINDS
OF FIREWORKS WENT OFF IN '91

FOR THE CONTESTS.

AND THAT WAS JUST A WHOLE--

FORTUNATELY, I'M NOT GETTING
INTO ANY OF THAT AT ALL.

I'M STICKING WITH
POETRY, NOT LIT,

AND I'M STICKING WITH
THIS PARTICULAR TIME PERIOD

AND EVERYTHING LEADING UP TO IT.

WENDY: MM-HMM.

WOMAN: AND THEN IF ANYBODY
WANTS TO DO ALL THAT OTHER SHIT,

THEN BE MY GUEST!

BUT MY MAIN THING--I MEAN,
JUST TO LET YOU KNOW,

I'VE ALREADY INTERVIEWED
BERNARD BRAGG,

PANARA, PATRICK GRAYBILL.

I GOT PENNY.
I'M GONNA GET PETER.

I'M GONNA GET PETER
AND KENNY.

- UH...
- GOOD.

WOMAN: AND VALLI RESPONDED.

FORTUNATELY, I HAVE SOME
OLD FOOTAGE WE CAN USE OF HIM

AND A DR. MILES
INTERVIEW, ALSO.

NOW, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH
HER STUFF AT ALL?

WENDY: I REMEMBER SEEING IT.

- BUT YOU'RE NOT REALLY--
- WHY? WHAT WERE YOU GONNA--

WOMAN: OH, I'M JUST ACTUALLY
GETTING THE LITANY OF WHO--

IT'S ALL THE STUFF LEADING UP TO
THE STUFF THAT HAPPENED

HERE IN ROCHESTER AND THE
FACT THAT ELLA AND CLAYTON

WERE SORT OF INDEPENDENT--
- OUTSIDERS.

- SPONTANEOUSLY--
- COMBUSTED.

YOU KNOW, GENERATED, YOU KNOW.

WENDY: AND SOMEBODY
COULD HAVE BEEN SENT--

IN 1950, SOMEBODY COULD
HAVE BEEN SPONTANEOUSLY--

WOMAN: SOMEBODY WOULD
COME HERE, YEAH.

WENDY: BUT THEY WEREN'T
BROUGHT TOGETHER.

WOMAN: NO, THEY
DIDN'T KNOW. RIGHT.

WENDY: YEAH, BECAUSE
THERE WAS NO WAY TO KNOW,

AND THERE WAS NO
GATHERING, AND...

WOMAN: AND JIM WAS THE CATALYST.

WENDY: AND JIM WAS
THE CATALYST.

AND JIM IS JUST AN EXCEPTIONAL
HUMAN BEING THAT WAY.

HE'S JUST ALWAYS DOING
THE NEXT THING THAT...

TAKES POETRY TO
ANOTHER LEVEL.

WOMAN: RIGHT. ELLA AND CLAYTON
ACTUALLY ENDED UP MEETING--

HEARING ABOUT EACH OTHER
AND ARRANGED A MEETING

SO THEY COULD MEET
'CAUSE THEY HEARD,

"I HEARD YOU'RE DOING POET ...?
"I'M DOING IT, TOO."

THEY FOUND EACH OTHER,
AND IT WAS VERY SERENDIPITOUS.

WENDY: CLAYTON--CLAYTON--
YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SURE

I'VE SEEN EVERYTHING THAT WAS
EVER RECORDED OF CLAYTON.

I NEED TO GO AND CHECK IT OUT.

WOMAN: OH, YEAH. IT WILL LEND
FUEL TO YOUR FIRE

ABOUT THE "FROZEN" ASPECT,

BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT HAPPENED WITH HIM--

[INDISTINCT] ...EITHER--

IS THAT HIS STUFF
WAS ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL

AND HIS HANDS
AND THE WAY HE DOES IT,

BUT HE PERFORMED IT OVER
AND OVER AND OVER SO MANY TIMES,

IT BECAME FROZEN IN HIS
DELIVERY. HE WOULD--

WENDY: BUT HE BELIEVED
IN THAT, THOUGH.

WOMAN: HE WOULD DO IT SO THAT
THERE WAS HARDLY ANY PAUSES.

WENDY: WELL, YOU KNOW,
IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE

THERE'S THIS DEBATE
IN THE STORYTELLING COMMUNITY

ABOUT WHETHER YOU DO A POEM--
WHETHER YOU DO--

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO
MAKE A LOT OF MONEY

DOING A STORY WITH EXACTLY
THE SAME INTONATIONS

OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND THEN THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO
SAY, "THAT'S NOT STORYTELLING."

STORYTELLING, YOU RESPOND
WITH YOUR AUDIENCE,"

ET CETERA, ET CETERA,

"AND CHANGE IT ACCORDING
TO THE OCCASION."

AND CERTAINLY--AND WHAT--IN
FREEZING THE WAY YOU DELIVER IT,

YOU ARE MAKING IT LIKE PAPER.

WOMAN: WELL, BUT YOU--

WENDY: AND--AND LOIS...

LOIS BRAGG, WAS IT?

LOIS, YEAH.

SHE ARGUED THAT THE AMERICAN
SIGN LANGUAGE COMMUNITY'S

STORYTELLING AND POETRY WAS LIKE
IN THE OLD DAYS IN ENGLAND.

ANGLO-SAXON LANGUAGE--THERE WAS
NO WAY TO WRITE IT DOWN.

AND THERE WERE THESE
TRAVELING TROUBADOURS

WHO WOULD GATHER A CIRCLE
OF PEOPLE AROUND, AND THEN

THINGS THAT PEOPLE ASKED FOR
AND THINGS THAT PEOPLE SAID

INFLUENCED THE PERFORMANCE.

AND--BUT THEN THERE WAS
THE LATIN LITERATURE

THAT WAS HIGH-CULTURE AND WAS
WRITTEN DOWN ON PAPER.

AND IT WAS IN A BOOK,

AND THEREFORE IT WAS
VALORIZED AS BETTER.

AND I THINK SOME PEOPLE,
LIKE CLAYTON,

FELT THAT BY FREEZING IT,

THEY HAD CREATED SOMETHING
THE EQUIVALENT OF PAGE POETRY.

AND I--AND I DON'T HAVE
A LOT AGAINST THAT,

BUT I LIKE ORAL CULTURE,
I LIKE INTERACTIVE CULTURE

OR, IN THAT SENSE,
FACE-TO-FACE CULTURE

AND THE ADAPTIVITY OF THAT,

BUT IT'S NICE TO BE ABLE
TO FREEZE IT ON VIDEOTAPE,

BECAUSE IF IT DOES CHANGE,
THEN YOU'D LIKE TO SEE

THE NEXT ITERATION
AND HOW IT'S CHANGED

BECAUSE 9/11 HAPPENED.

FOR INSTANCE, YOU TAKE
PATRICK GRAYBILL'S THING

WITH THE SPACE SHUTTLE.

I CAN IMAGINE HIM
CREATING A NEW POEM

WHERE HE PUTS THOSE TWO
TOGETHER--9/11--

BUT IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN
BECAUSE THE IDEA IS,

YOU DO IT THE SAME WAY
OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND NOT TO GET
TOO DEEP ABOUT IT,

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I REALLY
LIKE ABOUT SENECA RELIGION

IS THAT IT'S NOT FROZEN.

AT THE MIDWINTER CEREMONY,

PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO
BRING UP THEIR DREAMS

AND ABOUT HOW THE
RITUAL SHOULD CHANGE.

AND THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT
BEING THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK

AS JEWS AND CHRISTIANS

THAT MEANS THAT WE'RE
NOT VERY ADAPTIVE.

WHEN THINGS ARE
FROZEN ON PAPER,

IT'S NOT THAT FLEXIBLE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S GOING
TO A WHOLE 'NOTHER...

WOMAN: THAT'S AWESOME.
THAT WAS AWESOME!

THAT WAS--I WANNA KISS YOU.
THAT WAS GREAT!

THERE'S SO MANY PARTS IN THAT
THAT ARE REALLY PERFECT.

- I MEAN--
- WELL, YOU KNOW,

WENDY: AND YOU MIGHT--
YOU MIGHT SEE--

LOIS BRAGG CAME
AND DID HER THING

ABOUT HOW ASL WAS THE SAME
AS THE TROUBADOUR.

IT WAS THE ILLEGIT--
ILLEGITIMATE,

THE ILLEGITIMATE
LANGUAGE OF THE PEOPLE,

BUT THAT'S SO RICH.

WOMAN: I INTERRUPTED YOU
WHEN YOU SAID THAT,

AND I WANT YOU TO SAY THAT AGAIN
WITHOUT ME INTERRUPTING,

IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND
SAYING THAT AGAIN.

WENDY: OK. OK. WELL, LOIS BRAGG
DID A PRESENTATION

WHERE SHE TALKED ABOUT THIS,
AND SHE TALKED ABOUT HOW

ASL WAS THE ILLEGITIMATE
LANGUAGE OF THE PEOPLE,

AND, THEREFORE, IT WAS
NOT GIVEN THE SAME VALUE

AS LATIN OR FRENCH,

BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT ORAL
CULTURE, THAT'S SO RICH.

THAT'S SO--THAT'S WHERE,
YOU KNOW, STUFF BUBBLES UP FROM,

AND IT'S SO RESPONSIVE
TO THE MOMENT, YOU KNOW.

SO, ANYWAY...

WOMAN: UM...

I GUESS THE ONLY THING
I COULD ASK YOU--

WAIT--JUST WAIT TILL I CAN SAY--

IS DID YOU FEEL THAT
YOUR OWN POETRY

OR YOUR OWN CREATIVE
GROWTH WAS FURTHERED

BY YOUR INVOLVEMENT
IN THIS WHOLE THING,

IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP
WITH KENNY?

WENDY: I JUST--YOU KNOW,
I JUST HAD THE FUNNIEST FEELING,

AND THAT WAS OF THE
DEEP SADNESS BECAUSE, UM,

I'D HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THAT.

[SIGHS]

IT WAS A REALLY WONDERFUL TIME
FOR ME, AND I MISS IT.

UM...

WHEN I GET TOGETHER
WITH STACY AND TEACH,

I GET IN CONTACT WITH A PART
OF MYSELF THAT I DON'T--

BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THAT...

OTHER THAN WHEN I SEE
FRIENDS, ET CETERA,

I DON'T HAVE THAT
MUCH CONNECTION,

BUT, UM--WITH
THE DEAF COMMUNITY

OR WITH SIGN LANGUAGE ANYMORE.

AND, UM...

THERE WAS A YOUNG
IDEALISTIC POET BACK THEN,

AND I PROBABLY CREATED
A LOT MORE BACK THEN

PARTLY BECAUSE I WAS
PART OF THIS COMMUNITY--

DEAF AND HEARING TOGETHER--

WHO FELT THEY WERE--WHAT THEY
WERE DOING WAS IMPORTANT.

YOU KNOW, YOU CAN OFTEN FEEL,
AS A POET OR A WRITER,

PUTTING SOMETHING ON PAPER--
"WHO CARES?"

YOU KNOW, "WHO'S GONNA
LOOK AT THIS? WHO CARES?"

AND THAT TIME WAS THE GROWTH,
AND WE NOW SEE THIS SLAM POETRY

AND ALL THIS OTHER STUFF
HAPPENING WITH PERFORMANCE,

BUT THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME
THAT POETS SAID,

"LET'S TAKE IT OUT OF
THE CLOSET AND READ IT."

AND SURE, THEY'D DONE
THAT IN THE FIFTIES, TOO,

BUT LET'S READ IT, AND LET'S SEE
PEOPLE'S REACTIONS FACE-TO-FACE.

AND ON THE ONE HAND,
I SOMETIMES FELT LIKE

I WAS WRITING FOR
A VERY NARROW AUDIENCE,

AND THEREFORE I WAS
LIMITING MY WRITING.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, JUST THE
IDEA THAT SOMEBODY CARED AND--

YOU FELT LIKE YOU WERE--WITH
THE SIGN LANGUAGE POETRY STUFF,

YOU FELT LIKE YOU WERE PART OF
SOMETHING HISTORICAL HAPPENING

THAT HAD NEEDED TO HAPPEN
UP UNTIL THEN

AND WOULD BE NEEDED
BY POSTERITY.

AND SO, YOU KNOW,

YOU FELT LIKE YOU WERE
REALLY A PART OF SOMETHING.

AND--AND THE PARTIES WERE GOOD.

HA HA! YOU KNOW?

WE HAD A GOOD TIME!

WE HAD A REALLY GOOD TIME.

WOMAN: YEAH.
AH, THAT'S GREAT.

- THANK YOU.
- YOU'RE WELCOME.

WOMAN: THAT WAS GREAT!
THANK YOU, THANK YOU.

AW, THAT WAS AWESOME.
MMM, MMM, MMM.

WENDY: I DIDN'T KNOW
THAT WAS IN THERE,

BUT, YOU KNOW,
I MISS Y'ALL, YOU KNOW?

WOMAN: YEAH, WELL, WE DID
HAVE SOME GREAT TIMES.

WENDY: HA HA HA!
WE CERTAINLY DID!

WOMAN: THAT WAS EXCITING.
AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW,

THAT I HAVE THIS SIMULTANEOUS
THING IN ME THAT...

WHEN I GOT HERE,
I DIDN'T THINK--

I FELT THIS MUST BE HAPPENING
EVERYWHERE ELSE. I DIDN'T--

WENDY: MY BODY JUST
DID NOT EXIST.

AND TO HAVE A LANGUAGE
THAT I HAD TO USE MY BODY FOR,

NOW, HERE'S A REALLY
WEIRD STORY.

I CAN TELL YOU WHEN I FIRST
REALLY REALIZED WHAT THIS WAS

DOING FOR ME.

I'M COMING AROUND A CORNER
TOWARDS THE ENGLISH DEPARTMENT.

REMEMBER, YOU USED TO
COME OUT OF ...

INTO THE ENGLISH DEPARTMENT,

AND THERE WAS THE
WATER FOUNTAIN THERE?

AND I'M WALKING RIGHT BY WITH
MY--BUSY, BUSY WITH MY PAPERS,

AND I GO LIKE THIS...

WOMAN: OHH...

WENDY: AND IT WAS MY BODY
KNOCKING ON MY HEAD SAYING,

"LANGUAGE IS THE ONLY
THING YOU LISTEN TO?

I CAN DO LANGUAGE NOW."

AND "YOU ARE THIRSTY. NOW,
GO BACK TO THAT WATER FOUNTAIN."

BECAUSE I WAS REALLY IN DENIAL
OF MY BODY'S MOVE--

WOMAN: IT'S A BIRD ON THE ...

- WHAT?
- IT'S A BIRD ON...

[BIRD CHIRPING]

[MAN WHISTLING]

[MAN AND WOMAN
SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY]

WOMAN: BUT SEE, KAREN,
AS COOL AS SHE IS, I FIND...

[LOUD TRAFFIC NOISE]

WOMAN: I HAVE TO FIGURE OUT
WHY I THINK WE NEED THEM FIRST.

THEN FIGURE OUT
WHAT YOU WANT ME TO SAY.

"This project is supported by a Digitizing Hidden Collections grant from the Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR). The grant program is made possible by funding from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation."

Title supplied by cataloger

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