ds_0027_cohninterview_cap_01.mp4

ds_0027_cohninterview_cap_01.mp4

Interview

Cohn, Jim, 1953-

Cohn, Jim, 1953- Interviews

American Sign Language literature

American poetry 20th century

Deaf Poetry

Deaf, Writings of the, American

ASL poetry

Part of a collection of interviews made for a film on ASL poetry, "The Heart of the Hydrogen Jukebox." Jim Cohn describes how he became involved with poetry as a college student, meeting Allen Ginsberg and other noted poets, and attending the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics. As a poetry student, he was interested in the representational aspect of the Chinese written character, and drawn to the visual quality of ASL. In 1982, he joined the two year interpreting program at NTID. He learned about Deaf poetry and poetics from Robert Panara and Patrick Graybill whom he considered his spiritual teachers. Other Deaf poets also influenced him such as Ed Sollenberg and Dorothy Miles. He reflects upon the Deaf Beat Summit he arranged for an interpreting class, inviting Allen Ginsberg to present with Robert Panara. An earth-shattering moment occurred when Patrick Graybill translated the phrase "hydrogen jukebox" from Ginsberg's poem, "Howl". That meeting created an explosion of ASL poetry talent. After the summit, Cohn started the popular BirdBrain Society Poetry Reading Series on campus where ASL poets Peter Cook and Debbie Rennie performed. Jazzberries also became a venue for poetry readings which were interpreted for the Deaf audience. Deaf people could access poetry readings by hearing poets by talented poetics interpreters such as Miriam Lerner, Donna Kachites, and Susan Chapel. When Cohn attended graduate school, he continued his Deaf poetry studies and learned more about Clayton Valli and Ella Mae Lentz, who were ASL poets. He published a paper on the New Visible Poetics in Sign Language Studies and thought about hosting a national Deaf Poetry conference to bring together these talented Deaf poets. The 1987 National ASL Deaf Poetry conference was held at NTID featuring Patrick Graybill, Ella Mae Lentz and Clayton Valli who represented the first ASL school in the modern era (late 20th century). The experimental, spontaneous Deaf poetics embodied by Peter Cook and Debbie Rennie was introduced. Their work involved using interpreters (Kenny Lerner and Donna Kachitas) which exposed them to hearing audiences. Their works had surrealistic qualities and experiments in form which was beyond language. The mix of things was right for Rochester for Deaf poetry....like the mix of things was right in Paris for the Beats in exile. They were all in exile from something and looking for a way to be themselves as poets in a society that was not and grows less interested in the power of the personal in poetic expression.

National Technical Institute for the Deaf

Rochester Institute of Technology - RIT Libraries - RIT Archive Collections

Lerner, Miriam Nathan

2007

2018

moving image

mp4

DVD

122 minutes

American Sign Language

English

RITDSA.0027

Sculptures in the Air: An Accessible Online Video Repository of the American Sign Language (ASL) Poetry and Literature Collections

Miriam and Kenneth Lerner ASL Poetry Collection

2018-2019 CLIR Grant-ASL Poetry and Literature

https://albert.rit.…

https://archivesspa…

New York - Rochester

Henrietta Campus

RIT Libraries makes materials from its collections available for educational and research purposes pursuant to U.S. Copyright Law. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. It is your responsibility to obtain permission from the copyright holder to publish or reproduce images in print or electronic form.

CC BY-NC-ND: Attribution NonCommercial NoDerivatives 4.0 International

[FURNITURE SCRAPING ON FLOOR]

MAN: IF YOU COULD START OUT
WITH YOUR--SPELL YOUR NAME.

MAN 2: NOW?
MAN 1: YEAH.
SAY [INDISTINCT].

MAN 2: OK. THIS IS JIM COHN.
IT'S THE 7th OF JULY--

MAN: CAN YOU SPELL
YOUR LAST NAME?

COHN: MM-HMM.
2007.

MY NAME IS SPELLED C-O-H-N.

DO I GET AN "A"?

MAN: YOU GET AN "A."
COHN: OK.

WOMAN: AND IT IS THE DAY
FOR THE BIG CONCERTS, TOO.

COHN: WHICH CONCERTS?
WOMAN: THE AL GORE--YEAH.

COHN: OH.
WOMAN: CONCERTS ROUND THE WORLD.

COHN: OH, THE LIVE--WORLD AID--
LIVE WORLD?

WOMAN: YEAH, LOVE TO
[INDISTINCT].

COHN: I DON'T THINK THERE'S
ANYBODY PLAYING IN THERE

THAT I'D WANT TO SEE.

WOMAN: HA HA HA!
[INDISTINCT]

ANYWAY, SO,
LET'S START OUT BY--

I NEED YOU TO START WAY BACK.
I NEED YOU TO GO TO

TALK ABOUT NAROPA,

'CAUSE THAT'S WHERE YOU MET
ALLEN GINSBERG, RIGHT?

WAS HE ONE OF YOUR TEACHERS?
DID HE TEACH THERE?

COHN: RIGHT. ALLEN GINSBERG
FOUNDED THE NAROPA INSTITUTE

WITH ANNE WALDMAN.

WOMAN: WHAT YEAR WAS THAT?

COHN: THE JACK KEROUAC SCHOOL
OF DISEMBODIED POETICS

WAS FOUNDED IN '80--NO, '74,
1974 IN BOULDER, COLORADO.

ALLEN WAS A DISCIPLE OR
A STUDENT OF TRUNGPA RINPOCHE,

AND HE AND ANNE WALDMAN FOUNDED
THE NAROPA INSTITUTE'S

KEROUAC SCHOOL OF POETICS
AT THAT TIME.

AND I TOOK MY FIRST CLASS
FROM ANNE WALDMAN IN 1976

AS A SENIOR WHILE--
WHILE BEING A SENIOR

AS AN ENGLISH MAJOR
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO
AT BOULDER.

I TOOK A CLASS OF HERS
THAT SPRING SEMESTER
CALLED "POETICS."

WOMAN: DID YOU ALREADY CONSIDER
YOURSELF A POET AT THIS TIME?

OR WERE YOU WRITING POETRY
OR WERE YOU JUST SORT
OF STARTING GETTING--

COHN: KIND OF NOT REALLY MUCH.

AND I WAS AT NAROPA OFF AND ON

BETWEEN '76 AND 1980,

AND I WAS WORKING FOR
BURLINGTON NORTHERN IN 1979

AND LIVING IN
MISSOULA, MONTANA,

AND I HAD WRITTEN
ALLEN GINSBERG A LETTER

TO APPLY TO BE
A TEACHING ASSISTANT FOR, UM...

THAT SEASON, AND I HEARD BACK,

AND I WAS HIS T.A. THEN
IN THE SUMMER OF 1980,

AND I WAS--COMPLETED
A CERTIFICATE OF
POETICS PROGRAM THERE

THAT YEAR AS WELL.

SO, I WORKED CLOSELY WITH ALLEN

IN THE SUMMER OF 1980.

AND THE PROJECT I WORKED ON
WITH HIM AT THE TIME WAS

A YOUNGER POETS COLLECTION
FOR CITY LIGHTS BOOKS,

FOR LAWRENCE FERLINGHETTI
IN SAN FRANCISCO.

THERE WERE 3 YOUNGER POETS THAT
ALLEN GINSBERG CHAMPIONED.

THEY WERE ANTLER,
WHO LIVES IN MILWAUKEE,

WHO HAD PUBLISHED A GREAT, LONG
WORK CALLED "FACTORY."

THERE WAS THE POET
ANDY CLAUSEN,

WHO WAS AN EX-MARINE IMMIGRANT
TO THE UNITED STATES

WHOSE POETRY WAS THOUGHT TO

CARRY ON THE LINEAGE
OF NEAL CASSADY,

WHO WAS A FRIEND OF JACK KEROUAC
AND ALLEN GINSBERG'S

AND THE BEAT POETS.

AND THERE WAS A THIRD POET NAMED
DAVID COPE FROM MICHIGAN,

WHO HAD SENT ALLEN POEMS,

AND ALLEN WAS ENAMORED
WITH HIS POETRY.

HE FOUND IT IN THE TRADITION OF
THE OBJECTIVIST POETS

GOING BACK TO
WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS

AND CHARLES REZNIKOFF,
THE CHICAGO LAWYER POET.

SO, I WAS WORKING
WITH DAVID COPE

AND CORRESPONDING BETWEEN
HIM AND ALLEN IN '80.

AND IN--DURING THAT SUMMER,

I WENT TO A DOCTOR'S VISIT
WITH ALLEN,

WHO HAD HAD A PARTIAL STROKE

DUE TO SOME BAD MEDICATION
HE HAD TAKEN.

AND HE WAS AT THAT POINT
IN HIS 60s,

EARLY 60s, I THINK.

AND WE WERE SITTING
IN A DOCTOR'S OFFICE,

AND IN THE WAITING ROOM,
HE STARTED TALKING TO ME

ABOUT GOLDEN AGES OF POETRY.

AND HE HAD MENTIONED
THAT EZRA POUND,

WHO HE HAD KNOWN AND CHAMPIONED
DURING THE TIME THAT

EZRA POUND WAS
CHARGED WITH TREASON

AND PLACED IN ST. ELIZABETH'S
HOSPITAL IN D.C.

FROM THE TIME OF HIS INTERNMENT
AROUND 1946

TO HIS RELEASE IN THE FIFTIES
AFTER 11 YEARS, UM...

POUND HAD BEEN THOUGHT
TO BE TREASONOUS

TO THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
FOR MAKING

ANTI-AMERICAN,
ANTI-PRESIDENTIAL ATTACKS

FROM ITALY IN THESE RADIO GIGS
HE WAS DOING,

LIKE iPOD KIND OF RADIO SHOWS

HE WAS DOING OUT OF ITALY
DURING THE WAR.

AND ALLEN SAID HE HAD
LEARNED FROM POUND

THAT THE GOLDEN AGES
OF POETRY WERE

ALWAYS HAPPENING WHEN
TRADITIONAL, ACADEMIC,

FORMAL, OFFICIAL-LANGUAGE,

DOMINANT-LANGUAGE STATES
WERE HIT WITH

VERNACULAR, STREET LANGUAGE
OF THE PEOPLE,

AND THAT WHEN THAT LANGUAGE
BUSTED THROUGH

SORT OF THE OFFICIAL ENGLISH,

THE "THIS IS HOW WE'RE
GOING TO THINK ABOUT LIFE,

THIS IS--" YOU KNOW, HEAVY-IRON,
CONCEPTUALIZED REALITY,

ACCOUNTABILITY LANGUAGE,
YOU KNOW,

INTEGRITY LANGUAGE, YOU KNOW,
SORT OF CREDO LANGUAGE OF--

LIKE WE'RE ALL GOING TO BE
GOOD CITIZENS AND GOOD PATRIOT.

WHEN THAT LANGUAGE
IS BUSTED OUT BY

SORT OF WHAT PEOPLE ARE REALLY
THINKING ABOUT THEIR GOVERNMENT

OR WHAT THEY'RE REALLY THINKING
ABOUT THEIR LIFE

OR WHAT THEY'RE
THINKING ABOUT SEX

OR WHAT THEY'RE
THINKING ABOUT POLITICS.

HOW THAT--THE POETRY--
THAT LED TO POETRY

THAT WAS REALLY A MORE TIMELESS
AND KIND OF ETERNAL

AND FOR THE GENERATIONS TO COME
KINDS OF WORK.

AND SO, THIS HAPPENED
IN A DOCTOR'S OFFICE,

LIKE, 5 MINUTES.

AND THIS WAS
VERY POWERFUL FOR ME. AND--

WOMAN: HE DIDN'T JUST READ IT
OUT OF THE "READER'S DIGEST"...

COHN: OH, NO.
NO, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT--

WE'RE TALKING DANTE,
AND ALLEN HAD A--

JUST AN ABSOLUTELY...YOU KNOW,
AUDIO AND VISUAL GRAPHIC MEMORY,

SO, FOR POETRY.

PROBABLY THE LAST GREAT
LIVING POET OF OUR--

IN AMERICA WHO HAD THAT KIND OF
PRODIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE OF POETRY

AND POETIC CULTURE
AND POETIC HISTORY.

WOMAN: DID HE THINK
THAT THAT HAPPENED,

THAT THESE GOLDEN AGES HAPPENED
BECAUSE OF

LINGUISTIC SHIFTS OR
CRITICAL MASS OF PEOPLE

USING THE MORE COLLOQUIAL THING
SO THAT IT

BUTTED UP AGAINST IT
BECAUSE OF DEMOGRAPHICS

OR BECAUSE IT WAS
A POLITICAL THING?

WHY WOULD IT HAPPEN THAT
SOMETHING WOULD CHALLENGE?

WAS IT A POLITICAL THING
THAT WAS THE INCEPTION

OF THE CHALLENGE
TO THE HEGEMONY

OR WAS IT THE--
THE LINGUISTIC CONFLAGRATION?

YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING?

COHN: YEAH, I THINK HE
GENERALLY LOOKED AT IT

AS A COMBINATION OF
CULTURAL, POLITICAL,

SPIRITUAL, EVOLUTIONS.

YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK
HE WOULD ISOLATE IT

INTO JUST "IT WAS THE LANGUAGE"
OR "IT WAS JUST THE POLITICS"

OR "IT WAS JUST A CERTAIN--"

BUT IT WAS A COMING TOGETHER

SORT OF A--OF A PERFECT STORM
OF ART,

SO THAT--SO THAT
ART EXPRESSION

THROUGH POETRY IN PARTICULAR,

WHICH WAS THE GENRE IN QUESTION
WAS THROUGH LANGUAGE ITSELF,

WAS IN FACT
THROUGH THE SUBJECTIVE,

THROUGH PEOPLE CLAIMING,
AS THEY WOULD, LIKE, RIGHT NOW,

BECAUSE WE LIVE IN THIS WORLD
OF REALLY SELF-PRODUCTION,

A LOSS OF A SORT OF OMNISCIENT,
OMNIPRESENT, OBJECTIVE NEWS.

WHEN THOSE KINDS OF CONTROLS
ARE LOOSENED OR ELSE PRIED OFF

BY, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE,
BY PARTICULARLY ARTISTS,

THEN IT'S A COMBINATION
OF SOCIAL, YOU KNOW, POLITICAL,

THE ACADEMIC, THE GOVERNMENTAL
IS JUST--

THAT GETS PRIED
OFF PEOPLE'S BACKS.

THEY JUST SEE THINGS
DIFFERENT WAY.

THEY JUST SEE SORT OF
WARS AS COMPLETELY--

THE WAR THAT THEY'RE IN
THAT'S BEING FOUGHT

FOR A CERTAIN KIND OF REASON,
THEY JUST

DON'T AGREE WITH
THE GOVERNMENT,

AND SO, YEAH, I THINK
IT'S A COMBINATION.

WOMAN: MM-HMM. SO,
HE SAID THIS ALL TO YOU

SITTING IN HIS DOCTOR'S OFFICE.

COHN: WELL, HE BASICALLY JUST
TALKED ABOUT POUND

AND THE GOLDEN AGES OF POETRY.

AND SO, I TOOK HIM HOME
TO HIS APARTMENT,

WHERE HE LIVED WITH THE POET
PETER ORLOVSKY,

AND WHILE HE WAS TEACHING
THAT SUMMER AT NAROPA.

AND I WAS WALKING DOWN
THE STREET IN BOULDER,

AND I JUST HAD ONE OF THOSE
LIGHT BULB MOMENTS

WHERE, FOR SOME REASON,
I THOUGHT ABOUT SIGN LANGUAGE,

AND THAT IN TERMS OF, "HUH,

"I THINK I HAVE TO LEARN
ABOUT SIGN LANGUAGE.

"I THINK SIGN LANGUAGE MIGHT BE
A CONFLUENCE POINT WHERE

"WHAT DEAF PEOPLE MIGHT BE
THINKING AND CREATING

"MIGHT HAVE A SIMILAR
KIND OF EXPERIENCE,

"AT LEAST FOR AMERICAN LETTERS,

IF NOT FOR AMERICAN CULTURE
IN GENERAL."

IF THAT--IF WHAT
THE LANGUAGE OF THAT--

THAT UNOFFICIAL,
IN THE SENSE OF DISABILITY

OR IN THE SENSE OF STEREOTYPES,

IF THAT IS KNOWN
TO GREATER NUMBER OF PEOPLE,

THAT THAT MIGHT FLOOD OUT
SOMETHING THAT

IS SO MISCONCEIVED,
SORT OF SO HEAVILY CONCEPTUAL

AND NOT BASED IN ANY KIND OF
TRUTH OF WHAT'S HAPPENING.

SO, THAT'S WHEN I SORT OF
MEANDERED BACK AND FORTH

TO TRY TO BEGIN
TO LEARN SIGN LANGUAGE,

TO TRY TO BEGIN
TO MEET THIS WORLD

AND ENTER INTO IT.

WOMAN: YOU HAD NEVER MET
A DEAF PERSON BEFORE

OR SEEN ANY SIGN BEFORE
OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?

COHN: NOT REALLY.
NOT REALLY.

[WOMAN CLEARS THROAT]
DID YOU RIGHT AWAY...

COHN: EXCEPT MAYBE
A DEAF PIANO TUNER

I--I KNEW ONE TIME. YEAH.

WOMAN: HE ALWAYS--LOWER RANGE
WAS ALWAYS OFF, RIGHT?

[LAUGHTER]

WOMAN: NEVER GOT
THOSE LONG NOTES.

DID, UM...

[INDISTINCT]

OH, YEAH, I HAVE
TO BE QUIET.

OK. QUIET. SORRY.

I'LL COUGH ONE MORE TIME, OK?

MAN: YEP.
[WOMAN COUGHS]

I WON'T DO IT ANYMORE.
OK, THANKS.

DID--SO, YOU HAD THIS IDEA

AND DID YOU IMMEDIATELY TRY TO
FIND A SIGN CLASS THAT WOULD

HELP YOU?

COHN: YOU KNOW--AHEM--
MY--MY LEARNING SIGN LANGUAGE

ESSENTIALLY EVOLVED LIKE
AA MEETINGS OR SOMETHING.

I WOULD BE IN TOWNS
AND I WOULD, LIKE,

SEE THERE WOULD BE
A SIGN LANGUAGE CLASS,

AND ACTUALLY, AT THAT TIME,
THERE WERE

SIGN LANGUAGE
CLASSES EVERYWHERE

AS SOON AS YOU JUST LOOKED.

YOU WOULD GET--
I WAS TRAVELING A LOT.

AND SO, I WAS LIVING IN MY TRUCK
IN ARCATA, CALIFORNIA,

AT THAT POINT, AND I TOOK
A CLASS OUT THERE...AFTER THAT.

THAT WAS MY FIRST FORAY
AT A COMMUNITY COLLEGE,

I THINK, UM...

UP NEAR EUREKA,

AND THEN I WAS AT
SUNY NEW PALTZ.

I WAS REALLY TRAVELING CROSS-
COUNTRY A LOT AT THAT POINT.

I WAS HITCHHIKING AROUND
AND WORKING ODD JOBS.

AND, UM...

SO, YEAH, I SLOWLY ENDED UP
HERE AT NTID, WHERE WE ARE NOW,

AT THE NATIONAL TECHNICAL
INSTITUTE FOR THE DEAF.

IN '82, AFTER HITCHHIKING
BACK TO NEW YORK STATE

FROM...UPSTATE NEW YORK--

WHEN MY SIGN LANGUAGE CLASS
COMPLETED, MY FIRST ONE,

WHICH WAS MAYBE
A MONTH OR TWO,

AND AT THAT TIME,
I GOT PICKED UP BY A GUY

WHO WAS A STUDENT HERE AT RIT.

WHO HAD TOLD ME, "WOW.
THERE'S A LOT OF DEAF PEOPLE

"HANGING OUT AROUND THIS PLACE
WHERE I STUDY.

DO YOU WANT TO COME
SEE THE CAMPUS?"

AND SO, YEAH, I WAS HERE
FOR MAYBE A HALF-HOUR,

AND I CHECKED INTO
AN INTERPRETER TRAINING
PROGRAM HERE

AND WAS INTERESTED IN THAT
AS A WAY TO KIND OF DO BOTH,

THE THINGS I WANTED TO DO,
WHICH WAS LEARN SIGN LANGUAGE

FOR MY OWN SORT OF
PERSONAL GROWTH

AND INTEREST AND ADMIRATION
AND ACTUALLY MEET

POTENTIALLY THE POETS OF
MY GENERATION WHO WERE DEAF.

WOMAN: DID YOU--[CLEARS THROAT]
WHEN YOU STARTED TAKING SIGN--

I KNOW WHEN I STARTED
TAKING SIGN,

THE TACTILE/KINESTHETIC THING

WAS LIKE JUST
THIS IMMEDIATE HIT,

LIKE THIS IS WHAT MY HANDS WERE
SUPPOSED TO BE DOING.

YOU KNOW, I REALLY FELT
THIS IMMEDIATE...THING

THAT I WANTED TO DO THIS MORE.

DID YOU--DID ANYTHING
RESONATE FOR YOU

WHEN YOU STARTED LEARNING SIGN
THAT WAS HELPING YOU

ALONG THE PATH TO FIND THE
ANSWER YOU WERE LOOKING FOR

IN TERMS OF THE POETICS
AND JUST WERE LEARNING--

OR DID YOU ALREADY
SEE POSSIBILITIES

IN THE VISUAL ASPECTS OF IT?

OR DID ANYTHING ABOUT IT HIT YOU
THAT WAS LEADING YOU MORE

TOWARDS THAT KERNEL THAT HAD
COME TO YOU IN THE BEGINNING

OF YOUR THOUGHT
PROCESS, I GUESS?

COHN: I DON'T KNOW IF I HAD,
LIKE, GREAT THOUGHT PROCESSES

OR MUCH OF THOUGHT PROCESSES
ABOUT...ABOUT THAT,

BUT WE HAD READ--
I HAD READ AS A STUDENT

"CHINESE AS A MEDIUM--"

"THE CHINESE WRITTEN WORD
AS A MEDIUM FOR POETRY"--

SOMETHING LIKE THIS--
IS A TITLE OF A BOOK

BY ERNEST FENOLLOSA
AND EZRA POUND--

A LITTLE BOOK THAT REALLY
INTERESTED ME ABOUT

THE REPRESENTATIONAL ASPECT
OF THE CHINESE WRITTEN WORD

AS A MEDIUM FOR
POETIC EXPRESSION--

SORT OF THE REPRESENTATIONAL
ASPECT WHERE A WORD

VISUALIZES SOMEHOW OR REPRESENTS
SOMEHOW WHAT IT IS ABOUT.

SO, I DON'T THINK
IT WAS NECESSARILY

A MIND/HAND CONNECTION
OR SORT OF THE, YOU KNOW,

PAINTING ON...

PAINTING PICTURES ON HEAVEN.

UM...KIND OF QUALITY
OF SIGN LANGUAGE,

IT DRAWS A LOT
OF PEOPLE TO IT.

BUT I GUESS I WAS INTERESTED
IN THE SHEER, UM...

THE SHEER VISUAL QUALITY
OF THE SIGN AS A--AS--

TO BE REPRESENTATIONAL
OF THINGS AS THEY ARE

OR TIME AS IT IS BEING
DESCRIBED IN THE MOMENT

OR RE-CREATING PAST OR...

SO THAT SIGN LANGUAGE WAS THIS
MACHINE FOR MAKING POEMS

WAS REALLY FASCINATING FOR ME.

IT WAS VERY REPRESENTATIONAL,
AND IT BEGAN TO MAKE ME SEE

OUR OWN SPOKEN OR WRITTEN
ENGLISH LANGUAGE

AS SO ABSTRACT,
SO IN OUR HEADS,

AND SO POTENTIALLY FILLED
WITH NEUROSES

OR HALLUCINATORY EXPERIENCE.

IT WAS NOT REP--YOU KNOW,
TIED TO THINGS THEMSELVES,

THINGS AS THEY ARE.

THAT WAS ACTUALLY
A GROUNDING, INSANE,

BOTH CONTEMPLATIVE AND
SORT OF MEDITATIVE PRACTICE.

SO, ACTUALLY, SIGNING WAS
REALLY A PRACTICE OF MEDITATING

THE WORLD AS IT IS,
AS IT APPEARS.

WOMAN: BUT DOESN'T THAT...

MEAN THAT YOU'RE SAYING THAT
SIGN DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME

CAPABILITY OF BEING ABSTRACT
IN THIS FORM,

INCREDIBLY CONCRETE, AND
IN A SENSE, THAT MEANS THAT

THAT MAKES IT SEEM
THAT IT DOESN'T HAVE

THE SOPHISTICATION
OF BEING ABSTRACT

OR THE--YOU KNOW
WHAT I MEAN?

LIKE, YOU ARE VIEWING IT
WITH QUALITIES THAT WERE

COMFORTING TO YOU BUT AREN'T
NECESSARILY TRUE, I'M WONDERING.

COHN: RIGHT.

NOT REALLY. I MEAN--I--

THOSE ARE--THAT'S SORT OF--
THAT WOULD...

WHEN PEOPLE STUDY DEAF CULTURE
OR ASL CULTURE,

THEY TEND TO PUT THESE--SET UP
THESE OPPOSITIONAL CAMPS

OF THE, YOU KNOW...

I THINK WILLIAM STOKOE
DID A GREAT JOB OF,

PARTICULARLY
AS A HEARING PERSON--

AND THAT WAS AN INFLUENCE
OF--FOR ME AS WELL.

LIKE, FROM THE
LINGUISTIC COMMUNITY

TO SORT OF UP THE ANTE ON ASL
FOR PEOPLE TO ADMIT THAT--

PEOPLE HAD TO ADMIT
THAT THIS LANGUAGE...

THAT THIS WAS A LANGUAGE.

I JUST--AND
OBVIOUSLY, FOR ME,

ASL IS AS MUCH A LANGUAGE
ON PAR WITH ANY OTHER LANGUAGE.

AND ONE OF THE DEFINITIONS
OF LANGUAGE,

PARTICULARLY IN
ARGUMENTS AROUND ASL,

IS DOES IT OR DIDN'T IT HAVE
AN ABSTRACT QUALITY.

WERE DEAF PEOPLE
REALLY CAPABLE--

WERE THEY REALLY
THINKING IN THE SAME WAY?

WAS THEIR COGNITION
OF A SAME SET

AS THE REST OF THE PEOPLES AND
THEIR LANGUAGES OF THE WORLD.

SO, I'M NOT SORT OF
SAYING THAT IT'S,

I THINK, IT WAS THAT
REPRESENTATIONAL ARGUMENT

THAT SORT OF CONNOTES IT.

THIS WAS A PEOPLE THAT WAS
INCAPABLE OF ABSTRACT THINKING,

AND THEIR LANGUAGE WASN'T
CAPABLE OF ANY KIND OF...

ANGELIC OR PHILOSOPHICAL
OR MATHEMATICAL CAPABILITIES

EQUAL TO, YOU KNOW,
THE EGYPTIANS OR, YOU KNOW,

THE GREAT CIVILIZATIONS
OF THE WORLD,

BUT WHAT'S INTERESTING IS,
THERE'S A HU--

THERE IS THE HISTORY OF THIS
DRAG IN OPPOSITIONAL NATURE

OF THESE ARGUMENTS, AND THAT WAS
NO PROBLEM FOR ME AT ALL.

I JUST THOUGHT,
AS A POET,

THAT THE VISUAL QUALITY
IS PREMIER BECAUSE

THE LINEAGE I COME FROM WAS--
LANGUAGE ACTUALLY HAS

3 SORT OF FUNCTIONS.

AND THE PREMIER BEING,
AS POUND WOULD SAY,

THE PHANOPOEIC FUNCTION
BEING THE VISUAL,

THAT THAT IS THE
MOST TRANSLATABLE,

THAT PEOPLE
CAN UNDERSTAND THAT,

REGARDLESS OF WHAT
CULTURE THEIR FROM,

WHAT LANGUAGE THEY SPEAK.

AND, AS A POET, I WANTED
TO ULTIMATELY BE PART

OF A TRADITION THAT WOULD SPEAK
SORT OF CROSS-GENERATIONALLY

OR INTRAGENERATIONALLY
ON A GLOBAL LEVEL.

SO, SIGN LANGUAGE, FOR ME,

WITH THE EMPHASIS ON THE
LANGUAGE BEING A GIVEN, UM...

AND THE SECONDARY ASPECT WAS
THE SIGN WAS THE VISUAL,

WAS THE PHANOPOEIC.

SO IT WOULD BE THE MOST
CROSS-CULTURAL,

LIKE REGARDLESS
OF TIME AND SPACE.

THE OTHER ASPECTS OF POUND'S
SENSE OF LANGUAGE WAS WIT...

AND MELODY.

AND I THINK PEOPLE
TEND TO SORT OF NOT SEE

THE RHYTHMIC ELEMENTS OF ASL.

THEY KIND OF GET FASCINATED,
PARTICULARLY NOVICES.

PARTICULARLY MYSELF
AS A NOVICE,

I WAS FASCINATED WITH
THE VISUAL AND NOT
NECESSARILY UNDERSTANDING

THE MELOPOEIC,
THE MUSICALITY

OR THE RHYTHMIC
ELEMENTS OF SIGN,

BUT I THINK THAT
THAT CAME LATER.

AND I WAS PROBABLY
UNCONSCIOUSLY, AS A BEGINNER,

MAYBE EVEN MORE INFLUENCED
BY THAT AS A HEARING PERSON

THAN I WAS THE VISUAL.

AND SO I THINK--BUT AS A--
AS A QUESTION OF, LIKE,

"WAS IT ONE OR THE OTHER?"
OR "DID I THINK ASL

WASN'T A LANGUAGE AT FIRST?"

OR "WAS I INVOLVED IN A STRUGGLE
TO UPLIFT IT WITH OTHER PEOPLE?"

THAT--THAT WAS ALREADY DONE.

TO ME, THAT WASN'T EVEN
AN ISSUE WORTH DISCUSSING.

I WAS JUST INTERESTED
AS A POET

IN THE VISION, SORT OF
THE WIT AND THE MUSIC.

AND I'M--OVER TIME,
BEGAN TO SEE ALL THOSE ELEMENTS

AS A PART OF IT,
THE MORE I COULD LOOK IN

AND UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS BEING
COMMUNICATED AND PRODUCED.

WOMAN: SO, THAT'S--
[CLEARS THROAT] WHEN YOU--

THAT'S WHEN YOU'RE HAVING
CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE.

BUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING--
LIKE, WHEN YOU WERE HERE

AND YOU DECIDED TO GET INTO
THE TRAINING PROGRAM?

AND I'M ASSUMING THAT WAS
JUST AS A FAST TRACK

TO LEARN IT
AS FAST AS YOU COULD.

DID YOU EVER HAVE
ANY ASPIRATIONS

TO BECOME AN INTERPRETER?

- YEAH, YEAH.
- YOU DID?

I NEEDED A JOB. I MEAN,
I HAD A DEGREE IN ENGLISH.

SO, YOU KNOW,
THE QUESTION THEY ASK--

ENGLISH GRADUATES
ALWAYS ASK IS,

"DO YOU WANT THAT
WITH FRIES?"

- HA HA HA!
- YOU KNOW, SO, UH...

YEAH, SO I HAD BECOME
A PIANO TUNER

AFTER I GRADUATED FROM
THE UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO

IN BOULDER
AS AN ENGLISH MAJOR,

'CAUSE I WAS TRYING TO FIND
A WAY TO MAKE IT IN THE WORLD

AS AN ARTIST.

AND THEN I WENT FROM BEING--

MY OWN PERSONAL KIND OF BACK-
AND-FORTH VISION WAS SOMEHOW--

ON ONE HAND, I'D BECOME
A PIANO TUNER AND TECHNICIAN.

ON THE OTHER HAND,
I WAS DIVING INTO BECOMING

A SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETER--
BOTH VOCATIONALLY.

AND THAT WAS KIND OF
CONFUSING AT THE TIME.

BUT I DON'T THINK--IT WAS
NOT A FAST TRACK FOR ME.

IT WAS JUST, UM...

BUT IT TURNED OUT TO BE
A MAJOR SORT OF, LIKE,

ANTHROPOLOGICAL
KIND OF JOURNEY,

WHICH, I THINK, ANYBODY COULD
FRAME THEIR EXPERIENCE AROUND.

I THINK OUR STUDIES HERE
AT NTID WERE SENSITIVE ENOUGH

TO SORT OF PERMIT
THE ETHNOGRAPHIC

OR JUST SORT OF THE INFORMANT
PROCESS TO EMERGE AS A REAL WAY

TO ACTUALLY LEARN LANGUAGE.

YOU HAD TO MEET PEOPLE.
YOU HAD TO BE A SOCIAL AGENT

TO DEAL WITH LEARNING
THIS LANGUAGE.

AND YOU--BECAUSE THERE WERE
CUSTOMS AND ATTITUDES

AND WAYS OF LIFE THAT YOU
COULDN'T JUST LEARN

DEVOID OF THE PEOPLE
INCORPORATING THE LANGUAGE.

SO, THAT WASN'T PARTICULARLY--
THAT WAS SORT OF FAST-TRACK

BEING HERE AT THIS
MECCA OF DEAFNESS.

WOMAN: MM-HMM.

SO, WE WOULD GO TO
THOSE DEAF PARTIES.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE WOULD
SMOKE A LOT OF DOPE

AND EVERYBODY WAS HIGH,

AND THEN PEOPLE WERE
LISTENING TO MUSIC,

YOU KNOW, FULL BLAST,
SO THAT YOUR BONES FELT LIKE

THEY WERE GONNA JUST
KIND OF TURN TO DUST

BECAUSE THE MUSIC
WAS SO LOUD.

AND PERHAPS THAT WAS
A SORT OF ABU GHRAIB WAY OF,

LIKE, YOU KNOW,
HEAVY-METALIZING HEARING PEOPLE

TO TORTURE THEM INTO SOME KIND
OF FORM OF AUDITORY SHUTDOWN

SO THAT THEY COULD--
AND MAYBE IT WAS CONSCIOUS,

BUT I THINK TO UNDERSTAND
THAT MY CONTEMPORARIES

WHO WERE DEAF AND PARTYING
WERE AS MUCH SORT OF IN THIS

UNDERGROUND KIND OF SCENE
OF--THEY WERE HIPSTERS,

THEY WERE--HAD
THEIR OWN NETWORKS,

THEY SORT OF HAD THEIR OWN
ARTISTIC SENSIBILITIES,

AND THEY WERE DEEPLY ENGAGED
IN, LIKE, WHAT THIS LANGUAGE

THAT THEY WERE
PARTICULARLY ENGAGED,

MORE THAN AMERICANS ARE WHO HAVE
A SORT OF FUNCTIONAL LITERACY,

BUT NO REAL COMPETENCY
IN THEIR LANGUAGE.

THEY SPEAK. THEY USE THIS--
THEY USE THIS LANGUAGE, ENGLISH,

BUT THEY DON'T REALLY
HAVE MUCH, AS A WHOLE,

A SENSIBILITY OF WHAT IT'S
ABOUT, WHAT IT'S DOING.

AND SO THE WHOLE KIND OF
DEAF PARTY SCENE OF THAT TIME

IN THE EARLY EIGHTIES
AROUND HERE,

PARTICULARLY ON THIS CAMPUS
AND AROUND THE CAMPUS,

WAS, I THINK, VERY HEADY,

YOU KNOW, VERY INVESTIGATORY
OF WHAT--WHAT WAS GOING ON.

AND THERE WAS SORT OF LIKE
THIS SORT OF SENSE OF...

HUGE POSSIBILITIES AND CHANGE.

WOMAN: SO, YOU MEAN PEOPLE WERE
ACTIVELY SITTING AROUND

TALKING ABOUT THE LANGUAGE
THEY WERE USING.

THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT ASL
IN, LIKE, A SELF-REFLEXIVE WAY,

TALKING ABOUT,
"HERE'S WHAT I DO,

AND WHAT CAN THIS
LANGUAGE DO WHEN WE--"

YOU JUST TOLD THAT STORY--
DENNIS WEBSTER--

AND THAT WAS SO COOL HOW YOU DID
THAT SHIFT WITH THE CINEMAT--

YOU KNOW, I MEAN, PEOPLE WERE
TALKING ABOUT THE LANGUAGE

AND HOW YOU WERE USING IT.

YEAH, YEAH.

THEY WERE...

THEY, YOU KNOW--AND...

THERE'S THIS SORT OF SOCIAL...

YOU KNOW HOW...

SORT OF LIKE YOU COP HOW
A PERSON'S BODY LANGUAGE IS

OR YOU COP THEIR MOVES.

AND, UM...

I THINK IT'S LIKE DRESS,
IT'S LIKE COSTUME, TOO.

I MEAN, PEOPLE WOULD PICK UP
ON HOW PEOPLE ARE DOING THINGS

AND LANGUAGE.

AND THAT WOULD KIND OF
FLOAT OFF AND AROUND

AS SORT OF THIS WAY OF BEING FOR
POTENTIALLY FOR SOMEBODY ELSE,

AND SOMEONE MIGHT INHABIT
THAT SPEECH COSTUME

OR THAT SPEECH CODE.

AND I THINK THAT THAT WAS KIND
OF--THAT WAS MORE PLASTIC

THAN FOR HEARING PEOPLE,

BUT NOT PARTICULARLY,

BECAUSE THERE'S JUST SORT OF
STYLES OF VERNACULAR

GETTING SPUN OFF--NEW WAYS,
NEW WORDS IN A LANGUAGE

AND WAYS OF SAYING THINGS
THAT WERE JUST KIND OF TYPICAL

OF PROBABLY
COLLEGE-AGE STUDENTS.

WOMAN: WELL, THERE'S ALSO
THE WHOLE THING ABOUT

THAT THIS IS WHEN THE
RUBELLA BULGE IS HAPPENING

IN THESE KIDS WHO ARE
THE FIRST MAINSTREAM KIDS

AFTER 94-142 AND 504,
WHICH PASSED IN '74 OR '73.

[CLEARS THROAT]
IT WAS REALLY BEING DONE,

YOU KNOW, BY THE LATE SEVENTIES.

PEOPLE--THESE KIDS
WERE MAINSTREAMED.

AND A LOT OF THEM WHO,
HERETOFORE,

HAD BEEN IN THE
SCHOOLS FOR THE DEAF

ARE FINALLY COMING--ARE COMING
IN FROM MAINSTREAM PROGRAMS

AND FINALLY GETTING INTO THIS
INFUSION OF SIGN LANGUAGE, TOO.

- SO I WONDER IF PART OF IT IS--
- RIGHT.

WOMAN: THE FACT THAT A LOT OF
THE EXCITEMENT, STILL,

IS KIDS COMING IN HERE
AND FINDING A PEER GROUP

AND FINDING SIGN AND THAT
THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY ONE.

AND, "YOU SIGN THAT WAY,"

AND "YOU SIGN THAT WAY,
AND THAT'S WILD."

OR "I'VE NEVER DONE IT,
SO ...WELL..."

OR "I HAVE A COCHLEAR
IMPLANT. SCREW THIS..."

COHN: RIGHT. LIKE, EACH
DEAF SCHOOL IS KIND OF LIKE

ITS OWN SLAM CENTER.

IT WAS LIKE EVERY SCHOOL
WAS A POETRY SLAM.

AND SO THIS WAS LIKE
THE BIG AMERICAN SLAM

SORT OF STAGING OF IT ALL
AT THAT POI--AT THAT MOMENT,

SO THAT--AND PEOPLE WERE,
YOU KNOW, SORT OF NOT PARTIC--

I MEAN NOT PARTICULARLY
JUDGMENTAL IN A--

I MEAN, MAYBE AESTHETICALLY,
BUT NOT PARTICULARLY--

I MEAN, MORE OF
WANTING TO GET ALONG

AND MEET AND SORT OF
SURPRISED BY IT, LIKE,

"OH, YOU KNOW, LIKE,
YOU SIGN 'CHICAGO'

DIFFERENT THAN
I SIGN 'CHICAGO'"

OR, YOU KNOW, AND/OR JUST
THAT VARIANCE OF REGIONAL--

REGIONAL DERIVATIONS
OF LANGUAGE.

I THINK PEOPLE WERE SORT OF
MESMERIZED, FASCINATED BY THAT.

AND YOU'RE RIGHT.

SO, THERE WAS A CERTAIN INTERNAL
CONFLUENCE OF THINGS GOING ON

AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT

FOR THAT PARTICULAR
GENERATION OF STUDENTS

THAT HAD ARRIVED HERE
SORT OF IN THIS BULGE

OF, UH...EARLY TO MID-EIGHTIES
IN ROCHESTER,

AND THAT PROBABLY BROUGHT--

AND THEN WHEN PEOPLE
LIKE PETER COOK...

HE WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE,

KIND OF COMING INTO
ALL OF THAT.

AND YOU MIGHT HAVE
HAD A SENSE THAT...

SOMEONE IN THAT GROUP
MIGHT HAVE BEEN DESTINED

OR ABLE TO SORT OF SEE IT ALL
AND TAKE IT ALL IN

AND SOMEHOW PUT IT
BACK OUT THERE

IN A WAY THAT WAS BIG ENOUGH
AND NEW ENOUGH

THAT IT WAS GOING TO
BLOW PEOPLE'S MINDS.

WOMAN: WHAT WAS HAPPENING...

SO, YOU TALK ABOUT THAT THERE
WERE CONVERSATIONS HAPPENING

AND STUFF IS--THAT PEOPLE
WERE ACTIVELY ENGAGED

IN EXPLORING IT.

[CLEARS THROAT]
WHAT WERE THE PERFORMANCE THINGS

THAT WERE HAPPENING?

LIKE, WHEN YOU GOT HERE
AND YOU FIRST BECAME AWARE

OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING
IN TERMS OF

WHEN YOU'RE SEEKING POETRY,

YOU'RE SNIFFING IT OUT
LIKE GLUE, YOU KNOW.

AND SO, WHERE WAS THE INKLING

THAT THIS IS WHAT
WAS HAPPENING WITH IT?

YOU KNOW, THERE'S THE CELLAR,
THERE'S BIRD'S BRAIN,

AND I DON'T QUITE HAVE
THE CHRONOLOGY OF THAT OR...

OR THINGS LIKE THAT.

IF YOU CAN TALK ABOUT THAT,
IT WOULD BE GREAT.

COHN: SO, I GOT HERE IN...1982,

AND I WAS IN
A 2-YEAR PROGRAM HERE.

AND I THINK THE EARLY
PART OF MY TIME

DURING THAT PROGRAM
WAS TRYING TO CONNECT

WITH THE POETRY SCENE
OF ROCHESTER ITSELF,

WHICH WAS ITS OWN SORT OF
REGIONAL OFFSHOOT

OF NEW YORK SCHOOL POETS
TO SOME DEGREE,

REGIONAL NEW YORK STATE POETS,

AND, UM...OFFSHOOTS
OF BEAT GENERATION

AND BEGINNINGS OF
POST-BEAT ERA POETRIES.

AND THAT WAS ALL SORT OF AROUND

JOE FLAHERTY'S WRITERS & BOOKS
LITERARY CENTER IN ROCHESTER.

AND AT THAT POINT,
I WAS MEETING PEOPLE

AND GOING TO READINGS THERE
BECAUSE I HAD MET A LOT OF POETS

AND STUDIED WITH A NUMBER
OF THEM AT NAROPA

AT THE KEROUAC SCHOOL.

AND SO I WAS HUNGRY
AS A YOUNG POET AT THAT POINT

TO JUST KIND OF CONNECT WITH
THE POETRY SCENE HERE.

AND THERE WERE...

PEOPLE LIKE PHILIP WHALEN
WOULD COME THROUGH TOWN.

SAM ABRAMS WAS--WHO TAUGHT
AT RIT, ENGLISH, WAS HERE.

UM...AND, UM...

ANNE WALDMAN
WOULD COME THROUGH.

SOME OF THE MAJOR POETS
FROM DOWNSTATE NEW YORK

WOULD COME UP.

'CAUSE ROCHESTER WAS A PART
OF BOTH THE NEW YORK CIRCUIT

AND SORT OF A NATIONAL SCENE.

SO POETS WERE
RUNNING THROUGH TOWN,

AND I WAS MEETING MY OWN
CONTEMPORARIES HERE, TOO.

AND THEN AS THAT
KIND OF EVOLVED

AND I GOT TO MEET THE POETS
WHO WERE HEARING

AND STEEPED IN VARIOUS
LINEAGES HERE IN...

IN AND AROUND
THE RIT CAMPUS,

ONE DAY, THE POET
SAM ABRAMS ASKED ME

IF I HAD ANY ACTIVITIES PLANNED
FOR A VISIT BY ALLEN GINSBERG

TO ROCHESTER TO DO READING
IN THE COMMUNITY

AND ALSO AT THE COLLEGE HERE,
AT THE INSTITUTE HERE.

SO, I THOUGHT, "WELL, YEAH,
I MIGHT LIKE TO TRY TO SEE

"IF I COULD SET UP A MEETING
WITH ALLEN GINSBERG

AND ROBERT PANARA"--
THE POET ROBERT PANARA--

"AND THEY COULD SORT OF
WORKSHOP TOGETHER.

"AND THAT MIGHT BE
INTERESTING TO THE POETS

AND LANGUAGE ARTISTS
HERE ON CAMPUS."

UP UNTIL THAT POINT,
ON THIS END OF THINGS,

I HAD REALLY SORT OF
MADE MYSELF A DISCIPLE

OR A STUDENT OF PANARA'S.

AND I HAD KIND OF
GONE TO HIM

AS IF HE WAS A CERTAIN
KIND OF TEACHER,

BUT LIKE A SPIRITUAL TEACHER,

AND I WAS INTERESTED IN
THE LINEAGES OF DEAF POETRY

AND POETICS HERE THAT
HE HAD GREAT KNOWLEDGE OF,

AND I WAS IN AWE OF THE
INFORMATION HE WAS GIVING ME.

I'D SAY PATRICK GRAYBILL,
AS WELL, WAS--

HE KIND OF CAME LATER FOR ME,

BUT IT WAS A DIFFERENT KIND
OF SORT OF SPIRITUAL

AND AESTHETIC ENERGY
I GOT FROM HIM,

BUT THOSE TWO WERE
PLAYING A BIG PART

IN SORT OF MY SORT OF
INTERNAL DEVELOPMENT

OF SEEING, OF LEARNING MORE
ABOUT DEAF LINEAGES

AND DEAF POETICS TRADITIONS.

AND I THINK BY THE TIME
THAT ALLEN AND BOB MET

FOR THIS SORT OF DEAF BEAT
SUMMIT IN FEBRUARY OF '84,

I FELT PRETTY WELL VERSED
IN BOTH OF THOSE LINEAGES.

THE BEAT LINEAGE CAME OUT OF,
YOU KNOW, A LONG TRADITION

THROUGH WHITMAN AND--
[CLEARS THROAT]

WOMAN: DO WE HAVE TO
WAIT FOR A SECOND? BECAUSE--

- HELP!
- HA HA HA HA!

- MAKEUP! GET IT?
- HA HA HA HA!

MAN: OK, ANYTIME.

COHN: THE BEAT TRADITION THAT
I THINK WAS SO INFLUENTIAL TO ME

REALLY COMES DOWN TO THAT LINE
FROM GINSBERG TO WHITMAN,

THROUGH BLAKE, AND SO FORTH.

BUT, UM...

I THINK THE DEAF TRADITION
THAT I WAS SEEING

THROUGH STUDYING WITH PANARA

JUST HAD TURNED ME ON TO
A TRADITION OF STRUGGLE

AND OF VARIETY THAT WAS
SO NEW TO ME AND OF INTEREST.

THE...PROBLEM THAT
I WAS SEEING WAS, UM...

A LOT OF ISSUES OF
TRYING TO EMULATE

AS OPPOSED TO KIND OF
TRYING TO...

SUBJECTIVELY
DO YOUR OWN THING.

AND, UM...

THE LEVEL OF EXPERIMENTATION
AND SPONTANEITY--

I'M NOT SURE I'M A PERSON
WHO CAN JUDGE THAT

IN DEAF POETIC LINEAGES,

BUT THE GREAT GOLDEN AGE SCHOOL
THAT PANARA HAD,

BOTH SCHOLARLY CHAMPIONED
AND PARTICIPATED IN

AT GALLAUDET UNIVERSITY WAS--

SEEMED TO ME, WHEN I SORT OF
HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK AT

THE "SILENT NEWS" ANTHOLOGY,

WHICH WAS THE--PROBABLY THE
MOST IMPORTANT WRITTEN TEXT

OF DEAF POETRY TO THAT TIME,

AND ON SOME LEVEL, AND NOT
PARTICULARLY FORTUNATELY,

MAY CONTINUE TO BE
LIKE THE PRIMARY TEXT

OF DEAF TRANSMISSION
OF POETRY IN WRITTEN FORMS

IN THE SENSE THAT
THAT'S NOT PARTICULARLY

THE MOST VITAL, LIKE,
ASPECT OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED

AND WHAT POTENTIALLY IS MOST
RELEVANT ABOUT DEAF POETRY.

THAT SCHOOL SEEMED
TO BE ENGAGING

MOSTLY IN A CLOSED FORM KIND OF
POETICS OF RHYMED COUPLETS

AND THINGS SO THAT PANARA'S POEM
ON HIS DEAFNESS IS PROBABLY

ONE OF THE MORE EXQUISITE KIND
OF SONNETS FORMATIONS,

BUT DIDN'T REALLY CONVEY
A SENSE OF ASL.

I MEAN, IT WAS--HE TRANSLATES
IT, OR HE PERFORMS IT

AS A SIGNED POEM AS WELL AS
A POEM IN SPOKEN ENGLISH.

HE DOES BOTH TOGETHER,

BUT THAT WAS NOT
TOO INTERESTING TO ME.

THAT'S NOT WHAT WAS REALLY
INTERESTING TO ME.

OCCASIONALLY, I WOULD SEE
POEMS IN WRITTEN FORM BY,

LET'S SAY THE POET
ED SOLLENBERGER,

WHO WAS LIKE A BUM--
SORT OF LIKE A CLASSIC,

SORT OF BUDDHIST, DEAF BUM
IN LOWER EAST SIDE OF NEW YORK

WRITING SORTS OF
OBJECTIVIST POEMS

THAT WERE IN AN OPEN FORM, THAT
WERE SORT OF DESCRIBING EVENTS

AS THEY WERE,

AND THAT WAS OF INTEREST TO ME.

THAT WAS PART OF WHAT
MY LINEAGE WAS ABOUT.

WOMAN: DID YOU SEE HIM PERFORM
USING SIGN ANYWHERE?

THERE WERE NO FILMS OF IT OR...

COHN: NO, NO. BUT I WAS
INTERESTED, ALSO,

IN THESE PEOPLE LIKE ED
OR DOROTHY MILES

BECAUSE THEY WERE PEOPLE
WHO WERE ALSO--

I COULD SEE SOMEHOW,
THEY WERE STRUGGLING

WITH THEIR OWN PERSONHOOD
AND COMING TO TERMS WITH THAT

THROUGH POETRY,
WHICH I THINK WAS...

SOMETHING I COULD RELATE TO.

AND I THOUGHT THAT THAT
WAS SOMETHING THAT

PEOPLE WOULD REALLY WANT,
COULD RELATE TO...

THE EMOTIONALITY OF IT.

AS POUND SAYS,
"ONLY EMOTION ENDURES."

SO, THE FACT THAT DOROTHY MILES
WAS, LIKE, MANIC DEPRESSIVE

AND SUICIDAL,

AND BOTH SHE AND SOLLENBERGER
DID COMMIT SUICIDE

AND WONDERING SORT OF
WHAT THEIR COMMUNITIES

HAD CONTRIBUTED TO
THEIR ISOLATION

OR THEIR HAPPINESS WAS...

WAS REALLY RELEVANT TO ME,
TOO, BECAUSE I COULD SEE

THIS SORT OF COMMON
GROUND OF, UM...THE HEART.

OR I COULD SEE THIS
COMMON SUFFERING,

NOT IN THE WAY HEARING PEOPLE
AS A DOMINANT SORT OF FORCE,

LIKE, SUBJUGATE DEAF PEOPLE TO
THE REALM OF SUFFERING, UM...

AS A WAY TO SORT OF
CREATE THE NORM OF ABILITY,

BUT JUST EVERYDAY COMMON
SUFFERING THAT A PERSON

WHO WOULD MEET ANOTHER PERSON
ON THE STREET COULD RELATE TO.

SO...

I WAS INTERESTED
IN THINGS LIKE, WERE...

HOW COMMUNITIES RESPOND
TO THE POET.

AND OWNERSHIP THAT
COMMUNITIES TAKE.

YOU KNOW, I WAS INTERESTED
IN HOW ROBERT FROST

WOULD APPEAR
AT JFK'S INAUGURATION.

AND SOMEHOW, POETRY HAD,
AT THAT POINT,

IN EARLY SIXTIES, HAD STILL
THIS LEVEL OF, UM...

DYNAMISM THAT THE COUNTRY
COULD RELATE TO.

IT EMERGED THIS SPRING,
THE SPRING OF 2007,

WHEN, UM...

OH, I'M BLANKING
ON HER NAME.

SO I APOLOGIZE,
BUT, UM...

WE HAD A POET
AT VIRGINIA TECH,

NIKKI GIOVANNI,

WHO WAS CALLED UPON
AND GAVE THE GREAT EULOGY

FOR THE STUDENTS THAT WERE
MASSACRED BY A KOREAN STUDENT

WHO HAD MASSIVE DEPRESSION
AND WENT POSTAL,

LIKE, ON THE STUDENTS
ON THAT CAMPUS.

AND THERE YOU HAD SORT OF
A RELEVANT POETIC FIGURE

SORT OF RISING AS THE
SPOKESPERSON OF THE PEOPLE

AND THEIR SUFFERING
AND DESPAIR AND SOLIDARITY.

SO, I'M SAYING THAT BECAUSE
I THINK THE POETS--

[COUGHS]

IN THE DEAF WORLD
THAT I WAS LEARNING ABOUT

REALLY HAD, PERHAPS,
GREATER STRUGGLES

TO JUST SORT OF WORK
IN THE CONTEXT OF LANGUAGE

WITHOUT HAVING TO SORT OF
REPRESENT THE PEOPLE.

AND I THINK THE DEAF COMMUNITY
HAD AND CONTINUES TO HAVE

TO TRY TO LAY CLAIM
TO THEIR POETS

AND THE PRODUCTIONS
OF THOSE POETS

AS SORT OF SOME KIND OF
PROOF OR SOME KIND OF--

LIKE THE POET'S WORK IS
IMMEDIATELY SORT OF ABSCONDED

BY THE COMMUNITY AS SOME
KIND OF PROOF OF THE--

YOU KNOW, AGAIN,
THE CAPABILITY OF

THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE
IS SOMETHING THAT

I DON'T THINK, LIKE,
IN THE BEAT GENERATION

WHEN, IN THAT GENERAL CONTEXT

OF GOING AGAINST THIS
MASSIVE WITCH HUNT

AND BLACKBALLING OF PEOPLE
AS COMMUNIST OR AS DEVIANTS

OR AGAINST THE STATE

OR IN TODAY'S TIME, YOU KNOW,
UNDER THE PATRIOT ACT,

IN A SURVEILLANCE SOCIETY
THAT, LIKE, JUST THOSE

BASIC ISSUES OF GOING AGAINST
WHAT PEOPLE ARE THINKING

OR SAYING SOMETHING THAT
THE GOVERNMENT FINDS OFFENSIVE

OR IS CENSORABLE.

I DIDN'T SEE A LOT OF INITIATIVE
BY THE DEAF COMMUNITY TO...

TAKE A LOOK AT THEIR OWN SORT OF
NEED TO SORT OF SURVEILLANCE

OR CENSOR OR CLAIM THE POETRY
THAT WAS HAPPENING.

AND SO, PEOPLE HAD A DESIRE
TO SORT OF APPEASE,

I THINK, THAT WAS AS STRONG
AS THE SENSE OF FUN

AND JUST EXPERIMENTATION
THAT WAS STARTING TO COME OUT

WITH PEOPLE JUST DOING POETRY
AND THERE BECOMING, LIKE,

A GROWING BODY OF WORK.

AND I THINK THAT THE WORK,
ESSENTIALLY, THEN, IN MY TIME...

IT WAS KIND OF CLEAR
THAT ASL WAS THE PLACE

WHERE THE POETRY REALLY WAS.

AND IT WAS GREAT THAT
THERE WAS A BODY OF WORK

FOR HEARING PEOPLE,
A DEMONSTRATION TO, LIKE, THEM

THAT THERE WAS
REAL CITIZENSHIP

OF DEAF PEOPLE AS WELL.

BUT I THOUGHT THAT
THAT, AGAIN,

WAS SOME KIND OF
PROOF OF HUMANITY

THAT DIDN'T REALLY NEED
TO GO ON ANY LONGER.

I DIDN'T THINK THAT ANYONE
HAD TO STRUGGLE TO OVERCOME

LIKE A SENSE OF
PARIAHOOD ANY LONGER.

I JUST THOUGHT THAT
THAT WAS A DONE DEAL.

AND WHY DON'T WE JUST
GET ON TO, LIKE,

"LET'S SEE THE POETRY, MAN."

WOMAN: SO, WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT STUDENTS WHO WERE

BASICALLY PRODUCING
THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE SEEING.

YOU'VE COME FROM ...

YOU'VE SEEN--YOU'VE BEEN
STUDYING WITH PANARA.

YOU'VE SEEN WHAT--YOU TOUCHED
ABOUT DOROTHY MILES.

AND BERNARD BRAGG IS VERY MUCH
IN THAT MIX, TOO.

BOB TOLD ME YOU GOT TO
LOOK AT BRAGG'S STUFF.

HE DID THINGS THAT
NOBODY ELSE DID.

...TALKED ABOUT...

BUT YOU GET HERE, AND NOW
THIS MEETING TAKES PLACE,

WHICH I ALSO WANT YOU TO TALK
ABOUT A LITTLE BIT IN A SECOND.

BUT ALL OF THE THEORETICAL
AND ACADEMIC OVERLAYS

WE'RE PUTTING ON RIGHT NOW
DIDN'T EXIST FOR THESE STUDENTS

WHO WERE JUST GETTING STONED
AND MESSING AROUND.

COHN: RIGHT.

WOMAN: SO, WHAT WERE YOU
STUMBLING ONTO?

WHAT WERE YOU--LIKE,
DID YOU JUST GO TO A PARTY

AND THERE WERE THESE
PEOPLE WHO STOOD UP

AND STARTED DOING STUFF,

AND DID IT LOOK DIFFERENT
THAN STORYTELLING?

HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT YOU'D
HAPPENED UPON THESE KIDS

WHO WERE EXPERIMENTING
WITH SOME KIND OF THING

THAT YOU MIGHT THINK WAS THE
POETRY YOU'D BEEN SNIFFING FOR?

COHN: WELL, THE FUNNY PART OF
THAT TIME, FOR ME, WAS REALLY...

I WAS SEEING THINGS ONE WAY,

AND OTHER PEOPLE WERE SEEING
THINGS A DIFFERENT WAY.

SO, I WAS SEEING WHAT WAS
HAPPENING AS POETRY.

UM...

A LOT OF TIMES,
EVEN NOW,

SOMEONE WILL WRITE A POEM
AND WANT TO SHOW IT TO ME,

AND I'LL GO,
"THIS IS TERRIBLE.

"THIS IS, LIKE, NOT
HOW YOU TALK AT ALL.

"THIS IS NOTHING THAT HAS TO DO
WITH YOUR REALITY REALLY AT ALL.

THIS IS LIKE YOU TALKING LIKE
YOU THINK A POEM SHOULD BE."

AND IN THAT REGARD, WHAT I WAS
SEEING WAS REALLY POETRY.

AND THE CIRCUMSTANCE WAS...

DEAF PEOPLE DID NOT THINK
OF POETRY AS A DEAF THING.

SO, THAT'S THE INTERESTING...
CONCEPTUALIZATION

THAT WAS HAPPENING.

AND WHAT I WAS
INVOLVED WITH WAS...

THIS SENSE OF, I'D SAY,
"MAN, THAT WAS A POEM."

AND PEOPLE WOULD SAY--
DEBBIE RENNIE WOULD SAY,

"NO. A POEM EQUALS ENGLISH.

"SO, I CAN'T POSSIBLY
BE DOING THAT.

"BECAUSE I HAVE THIS,
AT BEST, YOU KNOW,

"ADVERSARIAL RELATIONSHIP
WITH THAT LANGUAGE.

"AND SO, I CAN'T POSSIBLY
BE DOING POETRY.

"I CAN'T POSSIBLY BE A POET.

I CAN'T POSSIBLY
HAVE THIS IDENTITY."

SO, I THINK WHAT I MIGHT
HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH

WAS ON SOME SMALL LEVEL
A TRANSMISSION OF POETRYHOOD

OR POET IDENTITY

AND REALLY TRYING TO LAY,
SORT OF A--CLEAR A GROUND

TO THE POTENTIAL TO JUST SEE
THAT IF PEOPLE JUST SAT THERE

BY THEMSELVES OR STOOD THERE
ON A STAGE BY THEMSELVES

AND ESSENTIALLY DID THEIR OWN
LANGUAGE...PERFORMANCE OR,

AS WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS SAID,

"A POEM IS LIKE
A COMPLEX MACHINE."

IF WHAT THEY HAD
CREATED AS A PIECE

WAS IN AND OF ITSELF
NOT JUST A THEATRICAL

OR A DRAMATIC THING,

WHICH DEAF PEOPLE DID FEEL
VERY COMFORTABLE WITH

AND DEAF CULTURE DID EMBRACE

FROM THE SILENT MOVIE ERA
ONWARD,

BUT IF, IN FACT, THAT SOLITARY
PERSON SORT OF SPEAKING CANDID,

NAKED, VIVID, MEMORABLE
MIND COULD DO...

THEN, IN FACT, THERE WAS
THE IDENTITY THAT THEY

MIGHT BE PARTICIPATING IN
THE POETIC TRADITION

THAT GOES BACK TO THE BEGINNINGS
OF DANCE AND MUSIC AS WELL.

AND SO THAT'S WHAT
THOSE CONVERSATIONS

WOULD ESSENTIALLY
BE ABOUT, WAS,

"YEAH, I THINK YOU'RE WRONG.

I THINK WHAT YOU'RE
DOING IS POETRY."

WOMAN: DID THEY THINK WHAT THEY
WERE DOING WAS STORYTELLING

OR WHAT DID THE--IF THERE
WAS A LABEL TO BE HAD,

WHAT IS IT THEY THOUGHT OF
INSTEAD THEY WERE GONNA DO?

"I'M GONNA SHOW YOU A BLANK
RIGHT NOW. WATCH ME.

"I'VE BEEN WORKING ON
THIS THING, THIS BLANK.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?"

WHAT DID THEY THINK
THEY WERE DOING?

COHN: YEAH, I THINK
YOU'RE RIGHT.

UM...AND FOR SOME REASON, THE
STORYTELLING TRADITION, FOR ME,

WAS SEPARATE FROM POETRY.

AND IN AND OF ITSELF,
IT IS MORE...

IT HAS A GREATER GRANDIOSITY.

IT'S NOT ROCK 'N' ROLL, BUT IT'S
DEFINITELY A HIGHER STATUS

THAN POETRY.

AND I GUESS I JUST
THOUGHT THAT THERE WAS

AN ABSENCE OF SELF,

OF THE SORT OF, UM...

IT WASN'T REALLY ALLOWING PEOPLE
TO SORT OF LAY CLAIM

TO THEIR OWN MIND
AND THEIR OWN HOLINESS

AND THEIR OWN SANITY.

IT WASN'T ABOUT THEM
YEARNING FOR THAT.

IT WAS IN A STORY AND IN SORT OF
CARRYING A STORY FORWARD,

IT'S IN, LIKE, THE
NATIVE AMERICAN TRADITION,

WHICH IT WAS MORE
SIMILAR TO.

I THINK IT WAS ABOUT
MOVING CULTURAL VALUES,

LIKE, FORWARD THROUGH TIME
AND CULTURAL MEMORY.

AND WITH THE ESSENTIALNESS IN
A NON-WRITTEN LANGUAGED PEOPLE,

UM...

THAT ELEMENT CANNOT EVER DIE.

IF IT DOES,
THE PEOPLE WOULD DIE.

BUT POETRY WAS SOMETHING
ELSE THAN THAT AS WELL.

AND THERE WAS SOMETHING
POTENTIALLY ABOUT THAT MODE,

THAT ARTISTIC MODE, THAT WOULD
EVEN BE OF GREATER VALUE

TO THE PEOPLE,

I MEAN, IN A SORT OF
SHAKESPEAREAN KIND OF SENSE

THAT THERE WAS A PERSON
THAT CREATED THAT STUFF

AND WENT THROUGH THE WORLD
EXPERIENCING SOMETHING

THAT BECAME
SOMETHING ELSE, BUT--

OR DANTE, IN A SENSE OF CREATING
A PERSONAL COSMIC VISION

AND THE VALIDITY OF THAT
AMONG MANY REALITIES.

SO, THE ULTIMATE SENSE OF THAT,
FOR ME, WAS IN CONVERSATIONS

WITH PETER COOK
AND WHEN WE FIRST MET

AND, UM...BEFORE ALLEN
CAME TO CAMPUS

AND ASKING PETER IF HE'D
LIKE TO GO SEE THIS THING

AND HIM SAYING, UH...

"WELL, I'VE BEEN TO
A POETRY READING OR TWO."

AND THAT, IN AN OF ITSELF,
WAS REALLY EXCITING FOR ME.

UM...AND...

BUT HE WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW,
HE'D LOOK AT THAT SCENE,

AND HE'D SEE PEOPLE SITTING
LIKE WE'RE HERE SITTING NOW,

AND, YOU KNOW, HE'S--
I'M NOT SIGNING RIGHT NOW.

AND I'M TALKING
ABOUT DEAFNESS.

AND SO HE'S SITTING THERE
AT A POETRY READING

WATCHING SOME CAT
ON A BAR STOOL

WITH, YOU KNOW, A PIECE OF PAPER
IN FRONT OF HIS FACE,

AND HE'S TALKING AND--
OR DOING HIS POEMS,

AND PEOPLE ARE SITTING
IN THE AUDIENCE.

AND IT'S SORT OF
LIKE, YOU KNOW,

DEAF PEOPLE ARE SORT OF LIKE
ITALIANS IN A CERTAIN WAY.

I MEAN, THEY'RE JUST
VERY GESTICULAR.

AND AMERICANS ARE SORT OF LIKE,
YOU SIT WITH YOUR HANDS

FOLDED IN YOUR LAP,
LIKE I'M DOING HERE.

AND YOU'RE NOT REALLY--
THERE'S NO EXPRESSIVENESS.

THERE'S NOTHING SORT OF--THERE'S
NOTHING COMING OFF THE BODY.

THERE'S NO STARDUST. THERE'S
JUST NO ACTION COMING OFF.

IT'S JUST BORING.

SO, I THINK, AS A DEAF PERSON,
WHAT WAS FASCINATING TO ME WAS

MY INITIAL TAKE
FROM PETER COOK

WAS THAT THIS WAS AN
EXCEEDINGLY BORING ACTIVITY,

EXCEEDINGLY PEDANTIC.

AND SO WHAT WAS
KIND OF EXCITING WAS--

I MEAN, I LIVED, BREATHED
POETRY MYSELF, SO--

AND I HAD JUST STUDIED
WITH THESE BEAT MASTERS,

PEOPLE THAT APPEARED IN
KEROUAC'S "ON THE ROAD."

I HAD BEEN STUDYING
WITH GARY SNYDER,

THE ECOLOGICAL POET
AND ZEN MASTER POET.

I HAD STUDIED WITH
PHILIP WHALEN,

WHO WAS ALSO A ZEN MASTER.

AND I HAD STUDIED WITH
ANNE WALDMAN.

AND THE POETRY I WAS READING
WAS ABOUT A WAY OUT

OF THIS PRISON MIND
OF THE CLOSED POETIC FORMS,

WHERE PEOPLE WOULD
SAY THINGS LIKE--

INSTEAD OF TEACHING
STUDENTS ABOUT PROSODY,

AS IF THE FORM DICTATED
THE CONTENT OF POETRY,

I WOULD STUDY PEOPLE
LIKE FRANK O'HARA,

WHO, IN HIS MANIFESTO
WOULD SAY...

"ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW
ABOUT FORM IS

"YOU WANT TO WEAR YOUR
PANTS TIGHT ENOUGH

SO EVERYBODY WANTS TO
GO TO BED WITH YOU."

AND SO, THAT WAS AN ELEMENT

THAT I WAS WALKING AROUND
THINKING ABOUT.

AND, IN FACT, IT WAS SEXY WHAT
WAS HAPPENING POETICALLY IN ASL.

IT WAS SEXUAL.
IT WAS SENSUAL.

IT WAS ACTIVE.
IT WAS, UM...

IT WAS BREAKING DOWN
CONVENTIONS.

AND THE ARGUMENT THAT
THEN HEARING POETRY, IN FACT,

THE REVERSE OF WHAT HEARING
PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO IMPOSE,

WAS THAT DEAF PEOPLE THOUGHT
THAT HEARING POETRY

WAS JUST A DRAG
WAS GREAT.

IT WAS GREAT BECAUSE
WE WERE INVOLVED THEN

IN SOME KIND OF
CONTEST OF WILL

AND CONTEST OF, LIKE, "OH, YEAH?
I'M GONNA SHOW YOU, BUDDY.

YOU KNOW, WATCH OUT."

AND, YOU KNOW,
FOR SOME REASON,

ALLEN GINSBERG
HAD EVEN, I THINK,

THE SORT OF MYSTIQUE
OR THE MYTHOS OF HOW,

THE CREATION OF HOW
WAS STRONG ENOUGH THAT

EVEN SOMEONE WHO WAS
DISINTERESTED IN HEARING POETRY,

LIKE A YOUNG PETER COOK,
WHO WAS MORE INTERESTED

IN SORT OF AVENUES OF
THEATER FOR THE DEAF

AND STORYTELLING
AND BEING ON THE ROAD

AND EXPERIENCING A KEROUAC
KIND OF EXISTENCE

IN A TOTALLY DEAF FRAMEWORK,

IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS OF
INTEREST TO HIM ENOUGH TO COME.

IT WAS SOMETHING OF INTEREST TO
PATRICK GRAYBILL ENOUGH TO COME,

WITH ALL HIS
THEATRIC BACKGROUND.

THESE PEOPLE KNEW OF THE
HEARING WORLD OF POETRY

VIA ALLEN GINSBERG,
WHO HAD SOMEHOW SORT OF

COME THROUGH SO MANY AIRWAVES
THAT IT JUST--

NOTHING COULD KEEP HIM OUT,

IT SEEMED, OF PRETTY MUCH
ANY CULTURE.

SO, THOSE PEOPLE SHOWED UP
AMONG STUDENTS AND...

ADMINISTRATORS AND--

WOMAN: WERE YOU THERE, TOO?

COHN: AND INTERPRETING STUDENTS,
WHO ACTUALLY--

IT WAS A CLASS FOR MY
INTERPRETING STUDIES

THAT SOMEHOW I HAD ARRANGED
THAT THE CURRICULUM FOR THAT DAY

WOULD BE THIS ONE WORKSHOP.

AND THEY CAME AND HUNG OUT.

KIP WEBSTER INTERPRETED
THAT SESSION

AS THE MAIN INTERPRETER.

I THINK I INTRODUCED
THE TWO OF THEM,

AND THEY SAT THERE
AND THEY DIALOGUED

AND DID SOME POEMS.

PANARA PERFORMED HIS POEM
"ON HIS DEAFNESS,"

AND ALLEN BEGAN TALKING
ABOUT HOW HIS POEM--

HOW IT HAD BEEN TRANSLATED
INTO MANY LANGUAGES,

BUT THE KEY ELEMENT OF IT
THAT HE WAS INTERESTED IN

IN THAT MOMENT WAS HOW
THE PHRASE "HYDROGEN JUKEBOX"

COULD BE--THAT THAT WAS
SOMETHING THAT HAD DIFFICULTIES

BEING TRANSLATED
INTO OTHER LANGUAGES.

AND HE WAS CURIOUS
HOW IT MIGHT BE TRANSLATED--

[COUGHS]
INTO ASL.

AND PANARA GOT UP, AND HE
SORT OF DID AN INTERPRETATION

OF HOW HE THOUGHT
IT MIGHT GO.

AND I BELIEVE ALLEN SAID,
"YOU KNOW, YOU'VE MADE--"

SOMEONE EXPLAINED TO ALLEN THAT
HE MADE THE SIGN OF AN "A" BOMB

WITH HIS HANDS
IN THE "A" SHAPE.

SO, IT WAS LIKE
AN "A" BOMB EXPLODING.

AND THE IDEA OF
A "HYDROGEN JUKEBOX" WAS...

THAT THE WORLD WAS INSANE
ENOUGH SUCH THAT, LIKE,

IT HAD CREATED THIS
CANNED MUSIC,

THAT EVEN THE MUSIC
WAS CANNED

INSIDE OF SOME KIND
OF MECHANICAL APPARATUS,

LIKE A JUKEBOX

AND THAT, ESSENTIALLY,
THE SAME WAY THAT SORT OF

THE LYRIC FORMULATIONS OF
DEAF POETRY UP TO THAT POINT

IN THE CLOSED FORMS WAS,
LIKE, CANNED HEARING MUSIC

PRESENTED TO DEAF PEOPLE.

UM, AND IN THE MORE LARGER
CONTEXT THAT IS SORT OF--

EXPRESSION WAS BEING CANNED,
MASS-PRODUCED,

MASS-DISTRIBUTED,
AND MASS-CONSUMED.

AND THEN SORT OF THIS MASS, SORT
OF, CAPITALIST HALLUCINATION

WAS JUST GONNA--
WE'RE ALL LOST IN THIS MATRIX

OF--OF JUST...

JUST THE SAME, JUST OF
A HOMOGENOUS MIND.

AND SO WE COULD ALL JUST PARTAKE
OF THE SAME HALLUCINATION,

BUT IN TERMS OF EXPLORING
REALITIES OR DHARMAS OR GODS,

WE WEREN'T GONNA HAVE THAT
DISCUSSION IN THIS LIFETIME.

SO, THE BEATS, ESSENTIALLY, I
THINK, IN ALLEN'S FORMULATION

OF THE JUXTAPOSED WORDS
"HYDROGEN JUKEBOX"

WAS SUCH THAT THE ROLE OF POETRY
WAS IN CERTAIN TIMES,

IN THEIR TIME, WAS TO
BASICALLY SHATTER THAT.

AND THAT NUCLEAR--THE CREATION
OF A WHOLE NUCLEAR WORLD

WAS, IN FACT, PEOPLE HAD
PRODUCED THAT THEMSELVES.

AND SO, IN THE MIDST OF
ALL THIS CANNED LIFE,

WE WERE CREATING
OUR OWN DESTRUCTION.

AND SO HE FELT THAT
PANARA HAD GOTTEN IT WRONG

AND ASKED FOR OTHER
VOLUNTEERS, OTHER PEOPLE

TO SORT OF INTERPRET THAT.

AND PATRICK GRAYBILL GOT UP
THERE AND DID HIS, YOU KNOW,

FAMOUS--WHERE HE
SORT OF OUTLINED

THE SHAPE OF THE JUKEBOX,

AND THEN SORT OF LIKE
PUT DOWN THE REC--

OR THE REC--HE KIND OF PUT HIS
ARM OUT TO GRAB A RECORD,

AND THEN THAT TURNED
INTO COMING DOWN,

AND THEN HERE CAME
THE TURNTABLE.

AND THEN IT CREATED THE BOMB,
THE SORT OF, THE POTENTIAL

OF SORT OF SOMETHING KIND OF
HAPPENING AND FASTER AND FASTER,

JUST THIS SENSE OF LIKE
THIS BOMB EXPLODING.

AND...IT WAS THAT "AH!" MOMENT
FOR EVERYBODY IN THE ROOM.

I MEAN, ALLEN, IN PARTICULAR,
WAS STRUCK BY, UM...

THE ACCURACY OF LANGUAGE

AND THE ENERGY OF THAT
PRESENTATION OF THOUGHT

AND WAS DELIGHTED AND THREW BACK
HIS HEAD AND LAUGHED.

AND EVERYBODY IN THE ROOM
LAUGHED, TOO.

AND PATRICK GRAYBILL, YOU KNOW,
HUMBLY JUST KIND OF THEN

TOOK HIS SEAT,

AND I THINK THAT THAT, YOU KNOW,
WHATEVER HAPPENED FORE AND AFT,

THAT MOMENT WAS,
YOU KNOW, IMPORTANT,

BUT I THINK THAT THAT
VISUAL PRESENTATION

WAS A HUGE TRANSMISSION
FOR EVERYTHING

THAT WOULD HAVE
TRANSPIRED AFTER THAT.

WOMAN: AND SO, AFTER THAT
WORKSHOP, WHAT WAS GOING ON?

LIKE WHAT WAS PETER,
FOR INSTANCE,

AND HIS OTHER FRIENDS--WHAT
WERE THEY DOING PRIOR TO THAT

THAT WAS EXPERIMENTAL?

AND THEN, RIGHT AFTER IT,
HOW DID IT COME FORWARD

IN WHAT THEY WERE
TRYING AFTER THIS?

COHN: WELL, I CAN'T REALLY
SPEAK FOR PETER, PER SE,

OR ANY OF HIS PALS.

THEY WERE ON THE ROAD--
THEY WERE DOING THIS THEATER,

AND THEY WERE REALLY DIGGIN' IT.

THEY THOUGHT THAT
WAS VERY COOL,

AND I'M SURE IT WAS.

WOMAN: THIS THEATER--LIKE THE
REGULAR NTID THEATER, YOU MEAN?

COHN: HE WAS DOING SOME KIND
OF THEATER TROUPE.

I KNOW I HAVE PHOTOGRAPHS
OF SOME NOTEBOOK OF TOUR

THAT HE WAS INVOLVED WITH
AT THE TIME.

AND OF ALL THE FOLKS I MET,

I WAS REALLY HANGING, JUST BEGAN
HANGING OUT WITH PETER

AT THAT POINT.

WE WERE WATCHING--
I'D GO TO HIS HOUSE,

HIS DORM ROOM,
OR MAYBE IT WAS,

AND THEY HAD, LIKE,
3 TELEVISIONS.

THEY WATCHED--THEY
WATCHED 3 TVs AT ONCE.

AND YOU COULD SEE, LIKE,
AND WE WERE WATCHING

THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES.

AND IT WAS FUNNY. YOU KNOW,
LIKE, THE PICTURES,

THE FEEDS WERE ALL, LIKE, A
LITTLE BIT OFF ON EVERY CHANNEL.

AND SO, LIKE, IT WAS
THE SAME THING,

BUT THE FEEDS WERE OFF,

SO EVERYTHING
WAS SORT OF DELAYED

BETWEEN THESE 3 TELEVISIONS
COMING ON.

AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW
WHAT THEY THOUGHT ABOUT THAT,

BUT I JUST THOUGHT
THAT THIS IS HOW

THEY'RE DOING BUSINESS
OVER THERE.

THIS IS JUST HOW THEY WORK,

AND I JUST THOUGHT
IT WAS...OK.

YOU KNOW, I LIKED
THESE PEOPLE A LOT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK,
WE ESSENTIALLY WOULD JUST

SORT OF GO BACK AND FORTH
ABOUT, "HEY, MAN,

"I WANT YOU
TO DO THIS POETRY.

"YOU KNOW, I'D LIKE YOU
TO TRY THIS AND, UH...

YOU INTERESTED?
AND I THINK YOU COULD DO IT."

AND ACTUALLY, HE SOMEHOW HAD GOT
SOMETHING FROM THIS WORKSHOP--

AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW
WHAT HE GOT, PER SE.

UM...

BUT HE ESSENTIALLY, I GUESS,
GOT SOMETHING TO SAY,

"I WANT TO TRY TO DO THIS,"

BECAUSE I THINK HE REALIZED
MAYBE HIS OWN REAL POETIC NATURE

AND WASN'T HUNG UP ON THE
IDENTITY OF BEING A DEAF PERSON.

HE PROBABLY HAD HIS OWN ISSUES
WITH BEING A HEARING CHILD

AND HAVING SOME HEARING
AND THEN BECOMING DEAF.

SO, IN SORT OF
THE WORLDS OF STATUS,

I MEAN, HE PROBABLY WASN'T
FROM A DEAF FAMILY OF 9--

90, YOU KNOW, GENERATIONS
OF DEAF PEOPLE,

SO HE WASN'T PURE DEAF EITHER.

SO HE WAS AN
OUTSIDER, TOO, AND...

WOMAN: AND ORAL ...

COHN: AND ORAL. YEAH, SO,
HE HAD HIS OWN OUTSIDER ISSUES,

AND MAYBE HE JUST
FELT LIKE, I DON'T KNOW,

HE JUST DIDN'T CARE
ENOUGH ABOUT

WHAT HE SHOULDN'T BE DOING

IN THE SAME WAY THAT I REALLY
DIDN'T CARE TOO MUCH ABOUT

WHAT I SHOULDN'T BE DOING
AS A HEARING PERSON.

AND, UM...

WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT
THAT, PER SE,

BUT I THINK WE JUST KIND OF
HIT IT OFF AS TWO PEOPLE.

SO, SOMEHOW I THOUGHT
IT WOULD BE REALLY GOOD

TO TAKE THE ENERGY FROM THAT
AND START AN ASL POETRY SERIES,

AND WE USED THE CAMPUS.

THERE WAS SOME KIND OF
CLUB-LIKE ATMOSPHERE THING.

AND ALLEN GINSBERG HAD A POEM
CALLED "BIRDBRAIN"

WHICH WAS A FUNNY POEM,
AND, UM...

ESSENTIALLY CALLING
THE GOVERNMENT

AND SORT OF THIS SENSE THAT
WE'VE HAD ALL THIS MONEY

AND ALL THIS POTENTIAL
TO DO THE RIGHT THING

IN FOREIGN DOMESTIC POLICIES
AS A NATION,

BUT SQUANDERED IT EVERY SINGLE
CHANCE THAT OCCURRED.

LIKE, WE'RE INCAPABLE
AS A NATION OF MAKING WISE,

SORT OF 7-GENERATION'S
KIND OF DECISION

AND BENT ON JUST
MASS DESTRUCTION,

PLANETARY DESTRUCTION.

SO, UH...

PETER HEADLINED THE FIRST
BIRD'S BRAIN SOCIETY

POETRY READING
AND SERIES.

AND THEN, THERE WERE
SEVERAL AFTER THAT,

AND THEY WERE WELL ATTENDED,

AND, UM, PEOPLE LIKED THAT.

THE FORMER CLOWN,
MIMEIST DEBBIE RENNIE,

SHE GOT INVOLVED WITH THAT, TOO.

AND SO, I THINK THAT
THERE WAS A GOOD BALANCE

OF GENDER ENERGY, TOO, THAT
WAS TAKING THIS IN, THAT,

"I THINK I CAN BE DEAF
AND BE A POET,

"AND I CAN USE MY OWN
LANGUAGE TO DO THAT.

"AND I CAN SORT OF
MAKE IT UP AS I GO,

"SEEPED WITH THE LINEAGES THAT
I'VE ALREADY COME TO EMBODY

"AND SEE WHERE THAT GOES

WITHOUT REALLY KNOWING WHAT
LIES AHEAD WITH THAT."

AND...

SO, THOSE TWO
REALLY STOOD OUT.

I THINK MAYBE PATRICK GRAYBILL
MIGHT HAVE READ--

AND I DON'T KNOW IF PANARA
CAME DOWN AT THAT POINT

AND EVER SHOWED UP
AND DID SOMETHING. HE M--

WOMAN: YOU SAY
HE SAW A COUPLE.

COHN: I THINK HE CAME TO THEM.

BUT, UH, YOU KNOW, HE WAS
WORKING AS A PROFESSOR HERE

AND TEACHING A HUGE LOAD

AND, YOU KNOW, EDUCATING
STUDENTS TO LITERATURE.

SO, THAT WAS HIS THING
AT THAT POINT,

DOING SCHOLARSHIP
AND LITERATURE.

AND AT THE SAME TIME
THAT WAS HAPPENING,

THERE WAS A CLUB IN ROCHESTER
CALLED JASPER'S

IN AN OLD FIRE STATION DOWN ON
MONROE AVENUE THAT WAS--

HAD GIVEN US PERMISSION TO SORT
OF START A SERIES THERE AS WELL,

POETRY SERIES.

AND SO, THE ROCHESTER POETS--

THE CIRCLE I HAD BECOME
INVOLVED WITH HERE IN TOWN--

REALLY STARTED THEN BEING A...

EXPERIMENTAL STAGE FOR
INTRODUCING INTERPRETERS,

SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS
TO A HEARING AUDIENCE.

AND THEN, BY DOING THAT,
ALLOWING DEAF AUDIENCE MEMBERS

TO COME AND START
SORT OF SEEING

WHAT THE HEARING
POETS WERE DOING

AND NOT JUST SITTING THERE
READING PIECES OF PAPER,

BUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT
THOSE WORDS WERE SAYING.

AND SO THOSE TWO THINGS STARTED
HAPPENING ALMOST SIMULTANEOUSLY,

AND...THERE WERE GREAT
SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS--

THE MOST DEDICATED,
SELF-DEDICATED
SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS

THAT WERE ALSO PART
OF THAT MIX, TOO.

AND AS A SIGN LANGUAGE STUDENT--

SO I WAS INVOLVED WITH THOSE
SORT OF THIRD-WORLD FOLKS,

THIRD-MIND FOLKS, EVEN--
PROBABLY THE CLOSEST,

AND THOSE WERE PEOPLE
LIKE YOURSELF, MIRIAM,

AND DONNA KACHITES
AND SUSAN CHAPEL, IN PARTICULAR.

THE THREE OF YOU WERE SO DEEPLY
INVOLVED IN TRANSLATIONS

OF HEARING TEXT,
WRITTEN TEXT TO ASL

FOR PRESENTATION PURPOSES

AND SERIOUS, COMMITTED, YOU
KNOW, AESTHETIC-MINDED PEOPLE,

LIKE, TRYING TO GET THIS RIGHT,

AS IF YOU WOULD DIE IF YOU HAD
GOTTEN THE WRONG WORD

OR YOU'D CREATED
THE WRONG SIGN.

AND STUDENTS OF
THE PERFORMANCE OF THAT

AND, YOU KNOW, INTENSE FEEDBACK
SESSIONS ABOUT A PERFORMANCE,

LIKE, "DID I TRANSLATE
THIS RIGHT,

AND DID THIS MAKE SENSE?"

SO, AUDIENCE...

PLAYERS, INTERPRETERS--

ALL THIS STARTED
COMING TOGETHER IN THIS

IN THIS REALLY UNUSUAL WAY

THAT REALLY HAD NEVER
HAPPENED ANYWHERE,

AND I WAS QUITE SURE THAT
THIS HADN'T HAPPENED ANYWHERE.

AND I DON'T THINK IT MATTERED

THAT IT HAD NEVER HAPPENED
ANYWHERE WITH THIS VELOCITY.

BUT IT WAS HAPPENING,
AND I SAW MYSELF, AT LEAST,

A PART OF SOMETHING THAT I KNEW
WAS A GOLDEN-AGE MOMENT

THAT POUND HAD TALKED
TO ALLEN ABOUT.

AND SO, ESSENTIALLY,
I WAS SEEING A DREAM

OF A GOLDEN AGE UNFOLD
RIGHT BEFORE MY EYES.

AND ESSENTIALLY, I WAS
JUST WALKING THROUGH IT.

AND WE BEGAN BRINGING IN
GREAT POETS.

ANDY CLAUSEN CAME TO ROCHESTER
AND WAS INTERPRETED.

THE NEW YORK CITY POET
BERNADETTE MAYER CAME UP

AND DID A READING
THAT WAS INTERPRETED.

AND DEAF PEOPLE WERE BEING
EXPOSED TO NEW YORK SCHOOL

AND SORT OF BEAT,
POST-BEAT POETICS

AND POETRIES, AND JUST
THIS KIND OF DIFFERENCE

PERSONAL STYLE THAT EACH PERSON
WOULD BRING TO THINGS.

AND IT WAS...
IT WASN'T DONE BY--

THAT WASN'T THEN
CARRIED OVER INTO ASL...

[CLEARS THROAT]

BY NOVICES WHO WERE PUTTING OUT
A SECOND- AND THIRD-RATE GLOSS

OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING,
BUT, IN FACT, I THINK,

WERE PUTTING OUT THESE
MEANINGFUL TRANSLATIONS

AND INTERPRETATIONS OF
ACTUAL FORM AND CONTENT

AND EXPRESSION, YOU KNOW,
IN THE WHOLE BODY WAY

THAT ASL IS ABOUT.

AND, UM...

AND THE DEAF END OF THINGS WAS
REALLY STARTING TO COALESCE INTO

THIS ALMOST, LIKE, BREAKTHROUGH
SENSE OF, LIKE, "WOW, YEAH."

I THINK IT'S POLITICALLY
IMPORTANT TO ME.

UM...

I THINK THE POETS MIGHT HAVE
BEEN THINKING SOMETHING LIKE,

"THIS IS A POLITICAL ACT
FOR ME TO DO ASL POETRY,

"AND IT'S BOTH SOMETHING
FOR MY PEOPLE

AND IT'S BOTH
SOMETHING FOR MYSELF."

AND, IN FACT, IT WAS
A BREAKTHROUGH MOMENT

THAT ASL EQUALED POETRY
AND POETRY MIGHT EQUAL ASL.

AND SO IT ALLOWED PEOPLE TO BE
FREE OF KIND OF THE ACADEMIC

LINGUISTIC DISCUSSIONS
OF, LIKE, "IS IT--

"YOU KNOW, CAN ASL
HAVE POETRY,

OR ASL CAN'T HAVE POETRY."

I MEAN, THESE KIND OF
ONGOING DISCUSSIONS

CERTAIN CLASSES OF PEOPLE
LOVE TO ENGAGE IN.

I THINK THE MOST EXCITING MOMENT
IN THAT WHOLE ERA THAT HAPPENED

WAS SOMETIME THEN AROUND '84
WHEN I SAID TO KENNY LERNER,

WHO WAS A HEARING HISTORY MAJOR

WHO WAS OUT HERE TO TEACH,

UM...

THAT HE SHOULD MEET THIS
GUY NAMED PETER COOK,

BECAUSE I SOMEHOW THINK THAT
THEY WOULD BE GREAT FRIENDS

AND NOT PARTICULARLY LIKE--

AND, IN FACT, PETER NEEDED
SOMEONE TO SORT OF WORK WITH HIM

ON THE END OF GETTING HIM INTO
THE EARS OF HEARING PEOPLE

SO THAT THEY COULD GET
A FULL UNDERSTANDING

WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

SO, I SAID, "YOU SHOULD
MAYBE MEET THIS GUY."

AND I SAID THE SAME THING
TO PETER COOK.

AND THE TWO OF THEM MET,

AND THAT'S SORT OF A WHOLE
OTHER CHAPTER OF THINGS.

MIRIAM: I MEAN,
HOW DID DEBBIE AND DONNA

END UP WITH KENNY LERNER?

DID YOU PUT THEM TOGETHER,
OR WERE THEY ALREADY FRIENDS?

COHN: WELL, I WAS...

I WAS BEFRIENDED BY
A YOUNG, BRILLIANT,

LONG ISLAND, UH...

INTERPRETER--
DONNA KACHITES, WHO--

[CLEARS THROAT]

WE LATER MARRIED, UM...

AND THAT BECAME A SCENE
IN AND OF ITSELF

FOR A LOT OF PARTIES,

IN A LOT OF POETRY PARTIES--
AFTER-HOURS KINDS OF PARTIES

THAT WOULD HAPPEN, UM...
AFTER READINGS.

AND SO THERE WOULD BE SORT OF
PSEUDO-DEAF, PSEUDO-HEARING,

PSEUDO-INTERPRETER KINDS OF
BASHES AFTER THE READINGS.

AND I THINK THAT WE--
SHE HAD FOUND HERSELF

INTERESTED IN DEBBIE RENNIE
AND HER WORK, AND, UM...

WE WERE ALL FRIENDS.

SO THAT, LIKE, KENNY, PETER,
DEBBIE, DONNA, YOURSELF--

WE WOULD START HANGING OUT
AND GOOFIN' AROUND.

AND I THINK WHEN DEBBIE
SORT OF TOOK UP THE CHALLENGE

DURING THE BIRD'S BRAIN SOCIETY
TO GET OUT HER POETRY,

WHEN THAT TRANSLATED TO
DOWNTOWN ROCHESTER

INNER-CULTURAL POETRY READINGS
AT JAZZBERRYS,

AT THAT SERIES,

THERE WAS--I RAN WITH
TODD BEERS, POET IN TOWN.

UM...SHE NEEDED SOMEBODY
TO BE HER VOICE AS WELL.

AND SHE CHOSE DONNA KACHITES,
WHO WAS EXCEEDINGLY GIFTED

POETIC INTERPRETER.

AND THEY SORT OF BONDED
IN THE SAME WAY THAT

KENNY LERNER
AND PETER COOK BONDED.

SO, YOU HAD SORT OF
THIS CROSS-GENDER--

SO, YOU HAD IT HAPPENING THROUGH
THE FEMININE AND THE MASCULINE.

YOU JUST HAD THESE--THIS WASN'T
JUST A MALE THING HAPPENING,

AND IT WASN'T JUST
A FEM THING HAPPENING.

IT WAS HAPPENING
REGARDLESS OF GENDER,

SO IT WAS HAPPENING--SORT OF,
THERE WAS A FULL-BLOWN DIVERSITY

KIND OF THING GOING ON THAT
POETRY COULDN'T ENCAPSULATE.

MIRIAM: AND AROUND THEN, ALSO,
THERE WERE THESE IMPROV TIMES

WITH STEFFA.
SHE HAD IN THESE WORK--

SHE HAD A LOFT
OR STUDIO SOMEWHERE.

AND IT SEEMED LIKE THE DANCE
STUFF WAS INCORPORATING SIGN,

THE SIGN WAS INCORPORATING
DANCE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU KNOW--

COHN: I DON'T KNOW
MUCH ABOUT THAT.

MIRIAM: OK. OK. THERE'S SOME
ELEMENTS OF THAT IN THERE

I HAVE TO EXPLORE, YOU KNOW--
- OK.

MIRIAM: THAT THE DANCE STUFF
IMPORTS DEBBIE A LOT

AND HIT PATRICK THAT DEBBIE
HAD THE DANCER-LIKE QUALITY

TO HER MOVEMENT AND WONDERED
IF MAYBE THAT WAS WHY...

UM...HOW LONG DID BIRD'S BRAIN--
BIRD'S BRAIN GO?

COHN: NOT TOO LONG.
MAYBE, LIKE...

I THINK TILL THE END
OF THE SCHOOL YEAR,

PROBABLY TO THE END
OF SPRING '85,

IF...MAYBE TO...YEAH.

IT WENT--OR MAYBE
THE SPRING OF '84.

AFTER GINSBERG DID COME,
WE DID A FEW SESSIONS,

AND THEY RAN OUT.

AT '84. THAT'S DEFINITELY
THE SPRING OF '84,

'CAUSE I GRADUATED FROM THE
INTERPRETER TRAINING PROGRAM

HERE IN '84, AND THEN WENT ON
TO BECOME A DEAF EDUCATOR...

QUOTE, UNQUOTE,
THROUGH MY STUDIES

AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ROCHESTER,

AND I DON'T THINK
I CONTINUED THAT.

[COUGHS]

THAT'S WHEN I BEGAN THINKING
ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

I MEAN, SO, BY '85,
I WAS ALREADY THINKING

ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED,
WHICH MEANS...

WHAT HAD ESSENTIALLY HAPPENED,
WHICH WOULD BE, UM...

THIS CROSS-CULTURAL EXCHANGE
AND THIS SORT OF TRANSMISSION

OF BEAT ENERGY
AND BEAT TRADITIONS,

WHICH IN AND OF THEMSELVES
ARE NOT ABOUT THE POET, PER SE,

BUT WHAT TRADITIONS THE POET IS
CARRYING FORWARD IN A NEW WAY.

UM...THAT TRANSMISSION
HAD HAPPENED.

AND SO YOU HAD THE EARLY
SORT OF POETIC CAREERS

OF PETER COOK
AND KENNY LERNER,

DONNA KACHITES
AND DEBBIE RENNIE,

AND MYSELF AS SORT OF
THE ODD MAN OUT

IN ALL WAYS YOU COULD IMAGINE,

LIKE FORMING A LITTLE TROUPE
CALLED "BRIDGE OF."

AND I THINK THAT WAS A VERY
SHORT-LIVED PERFORMANCE TROUPE.

WE PERFORMED AT THE
HUDSON CLEARWATER REVIVAL,

AND WE DID ANOTHER SHOW
IN VERMONT

I THINK AT UNIVERSITY OF VERMONT
IN BURLINGTON.

AND I THINK AFTER THAT,
IT WAS KIND OF CLEAR THAT

KENNY AND PETER WERE DOING
A THING THAT WOULD SOON

MORPH INTO THE
FLYING WORDS PROJECT,

AND THAT WAS THEIR VEHICLE.

AND DEBBIE AND DONNA'S THING
WOULD BE SOMEWHAT OCCASIONAL

AND, UM...BUT NOT AS LASTING

AND NOT REALLY AS--
IT DIDN'T PRODUCE AS MUCH WORK

FOR THE PARTIES INVOLVED.

SO, I DON'T KNOW
WHAT THAT WAS ABOUT

IN TERMS OF LONGEVITY,

BUT THE WORK THAT THEY CREATED
WAS WORK THAT THEY CREATED.

AND IT WAS--
IT'S A BODY OF WORK.

MIRIAM: WELL, AND AT THIS TIME,
TOO, WAS WHEN YOU DECIDE--

'87 IS WHEN THE FIRST NATIONAL
DEAF POETRY CONFERENCE HAPPENS--

SEPTEMBER OF '87.

AND YOU HAD CONTACTED ME, UH...

IN THE WINTERTIME.

MY MOM HAD DIED. I WAS LIVING
IN NEW MEXICO WITH MY DAD

TAKING CARE OF HIM,
AND YOU HAD CALLED ME AND SAID,

"I'M THINKING OF DOING
THIS THING IN THE FALL.

"YOU WANT TO HELP ME DO IT?

"YOU WANT TO HELP ME COORDINATE
THE INTERPRET FOR IT,

AND WILL YOU HELP ME COORDINATE
INTERPRETING SERVICES?"

WHATEVER. AND SAID, "SURE.
THAT SOUNDS GREAT."

SO, AND THAT STARTED REALLY
ROLLING IN THE LATE SPRING

AND ALL SUMMER
WITH THE PLANNING.

SO, WHAT MADE YOU
WANT TO DO THAT,

AND HOW DID YOU PICK--
THE LOCAL PLAYERS WE KNOW ABOUT,

BUT CLAYTON AND ELLA
WERE INVOLVED IN THAT, TOO.

SO, WHAT WAS YOUR
KNOWLEDGE OF THEM?

HOW DID YOU
GET ALL THAT TOGETHER?

COHN: WELL, UM...

I THINK WHEN I WAS IN
GRAD SCHOOL,

I WAS--I CONTINUED MY INTEREST
IN DEAF POETICS, SO--

AND DEAF HISTORY,
SO I HAD COME ACROSS

CLAYTON VALLI'S WORK
AND ELLA MAE LENTZ'S WORK,

AND I WAS INTERESTED
IN WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

I WAS INTERESTED IN VALLI'S
COMMITMENT TO ASL

FROM A TOTALLY DIFFERENT,
YOU KNOW, HISTORY

THAN WE WERE--THAN WHAT
HAD HAPPENED HERE AT ROCHESTER,

WHICH WAS PRETTY MUCH
LIKE A BEAT KIND OF THING.

AND ELLA LENTZ
WAS JUST SOMEONE--

YOU KNOW, YOU'D ACTUALLY
SEE HER PICTURES

IN YOUR ASL BOOKS.

YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE,
LIKE, HER FACE IN THERE

WHEN YOU'RE LEARNING A SIGN.

IT WOULD BE LIKE ELLA'S--
ELLA PRESENTING THE SIGN

FOR LIKE, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER,
YOU KNOW,

COOKING OR SOMETHING.

AND IT'S LIKE THIS WOMAN
IS A RADICAL,

YOU KNOW, POET
ON THE WEST COAST,

AND SO VALLI'S, YOU KNOW,
HARDCORE, COMMITTED, SENSITIVE,

A GAY, YOU KNOW, POET
ON THE EAST COAST.

SO IT WAS SORT OF THIS SENSE OF
LIKE, OK,

I WONDER IF THERE'S A POTENTIAL
TO PULL TOGETHER

A NATIONAL KIND OF SENSIBILITY
OF A POETRY CONFERENCE

FOR THE DEAF.

BUT A LITTLE BEFORE THAT,
WHILE I WAS DOING MY STUDIES,

I HAD WRITTEN A PAPER FOR--
THAT EXPLORED

WHAT HAD HAPPENED IN ROCHESTER

FROM THIS DEAF BEATS SUMMIT
IN '84.

AND, YOU KNOW, IN THE PAST,
I'VE HAD A POET FRIEND,

RANDY ROARK, WHO I'M VERY CLOSE
TO ALL THESE YEARS

FROM MY STUDENT DAYS WITH HIM
AT NAROPA.

RANDY HAD SORT OF--WAS LEFT
TO TYPE UP

ALL THIS CONVERSATION THAT
ALLEN GINSBERG HAD HAD

IN ALL HIS CLASSES AT NAROPA,

AND THAT AMOUNTED TO OVER
28,000 PAGES OF DISCOURSE.

IT WOULD HAVE GONE INTO...

THAT I DON'T THINK HAS REALLY
BEEN PUBLISHED YET,

BUT WHEN I LOOK AT PIECES,
POSTHUMOUS PIECES,

OF ALLEN'S LIKE DELIBERATE
MIND THAT HAVE COME OUT,

THAT'S THE KIND OF THING WHERE
HE HAD A STUDENT,

ACTUALLY THEN TYPE UP THESE
TALKED, ON-THE-TONGUE TAPES.

BUT SO I HAD WRITTEN ALLEN
TO BE HIS APPRENTICE,

AND IT TOOK A CERTAIN KIND
OF AUDACITY TO DO THAT,

AND SAYING LIKE, "I THINK
YOU SHOULD HAVE ME
AS AN APPRENTICE."

AND RANDY ALWAYS HOUNDS ME
TO THIS DAY

THAT THAT TOOK A LOT
OF BALLS,

YOU KNOW, LIKE, TO SORT OF THINK
THAT YOU WERE, LIKE, SOMEBODY

THAT SHOULD, YOU KNOW--

THAT SOMEBODY SHOULD THINK
THAT THEY'RE SOMEBODY ABOUT.

AND--[COUGHS] SO I'D WRITTEN
THIS PAPER,

OF WHICH I THINK I RECEIVED
A "B" FROM MY TEACHERS,

AND I WORKED ON IT MORE,
MAYBE 6 MONTHS.

AND I THINK IT WAS CALLED
"THE NEW VISIBLE POETICS"
OR SOMETHING.

AND I'D SENT THAT TO
WILLIAM STOKOE,

WHO WAS STILL ALIVE AND DOING
SIGN LANGUAGE STUDIES

OUT OF GALLAUDET.

AND I HEARD BACK FROM HIM
IN A LITTLE OVER A WEEK

THAT HE WOULD BE GLAD
TO ACCEPT THIS PAPER,

AND HE THOUGHT IT WAS TERRIFIC

AND HE WANTED PEOPLE TO KNOW
ABOUT THIS.

AND THAT LITTLE PAPER
WOULD HAVE INFLUENCED,

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE
DIRKSEN BAUMAN

AND THE MORE HEAVY-HITTER
ACADEMIC POETICS...

PROFESSORS IN THE ACADEMIES,
YOU KNOW, TEACHING POETRY.

SO, BEFORE WE GET TO A NATIONAL
POETRY CONFERENCE,

THERE SEEMED TO BE A NEED
TO KIND OF RISE THINGS UP

THROUGH AS MANY CHANNELS
AS POSSIBLE

IN TERMS OF CREDIBILITY.

AND THAT LITTLE SEMINAL PIECE
WAS A PART OF THAT

THAT PROBABLY GAVE ME THE EGO

TO PROCLAIM AGAIN
AS A HEARING PERSON

SOMETHING I WAS SEEING IN
A CULTURE THAT WAS REALLY--

HAS A DIFFICULT TIME WITH
HEARING PEOPLES

TRYING TO LAY CLAIM TO ANY KIND
OF SENSE

OF WHAT IS AND ISN'T
GONNA HAPPEN FOR THEM,

A BASIS.

BUT IT WAS WHAT I SAW

AND IT WAS SORT OF
MY OWN THING,

AND IT SORT OF CAUSED SOMETHING
TO HAPPEN.

I'M NOT SURE WHAT,

BUT I DO THINK IT CAUSED
SOMETHING TO HAPPEN LATER

IN TERMS OF DEAF STUDIES.

AND, UM...

SO SOMEHOW WE GOT THE BREAD.

WE HAD A REALLY WONDERFUL,
WONDERFUL ADMINISTRATIVE PERSON

AT NTID AROUND THAT TIME,
ADELE FRIEDMAN,

AND SHE SOMEHOW WAS VERY...

SHE WAS SORT OF LIKE
A VICTORIAN-MIND WOMAN.

SHE MIGHT HAVE BEEN LIKE
A FRIEND

OF MARY SHELLEY'S
OR SOMETHING.

SHE MIGHT HAVE LIKE SEEN
"FRANKENSTEIN"

WHEN IT WAS BEING, YOU KNOW,
HATCHED OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

OR WHEN, YOU KNOW, WHEN
SHELLEY WAS OUT OF TOWN

OR, YOU KNOW, IN HIS ROWBOAT,

LIKE ROWING TO ITALY
OR SOMEWHERE WITH BYRON,

AND SHE WAS AT HOME,
YOU KNOW, LIKE,

YOU KNOW, TAKING
SPEED AND VALIUM

AND, LIKE, WRITING
"FRANKENSTEIN" OR SOMETHING,

SOMEONE LIKE ADELE FRIEDMAN
MIGHT HAVE BEEN

LIKE HER FRIEND OR SOMETHING.

I DON'T KNOW.

AND SHE UNDERSTOOD JUST
INTUITIVELY

THAT THIS WAS REALLY IMPORTANT

AND SORT OF BROKERED THE DEAL
THAT WOULD ALLOW US

TO TRY AND SORT OF
PULL OFF A NATIONAL
POETRY CONFERENCE HERE,

WHICH WAS A PLACE ESSENTIALLY
THAT HAD VERY LITTLE INTEREST

AS A TECHNICAL INSTITUTE
IN POETRY AT ALL,

WHICH, ON THE OTHER HAND--

AND IT'S VERY CORPORATE-LOOKING
ENVIRONMENT--

AND ON THE OTHER HAND,

IT'S KIND OF FILLED
WITH ART STUDENTS--

PEOPLE WHO REALLY ARE VERY
CREATIVE YOUNG PEOPLE,

SO...

THE LINE-UP WAS

PATRICK GRAYBILL,
ELLA MAE LENTZ,

AND CLAYTON VALLI.

SO THEY SORT OF REPRESENTED
SORT OF AN ESTABLISHED ASL

FIRST SCHOOL OF THE MODERN ERA.

AND THIS ERA IS LIKE LATE
20th CENTURY.

AND THEN THERE WAS
THE INTRODUCTION

OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED HERE,

WHICH WAS ESSENTIALLY
THE BEGINNING

OF AN EXPERIMENTAL,

I WOULD SAY SPONTANEOUS

KIND OF KEROUAC, GINSBERG,

WALDMAN KIND OF SENSE
OF DEATH POETICS

EMBODIED BY DEBBIE RENNIE
AND PETER COOK

WITH THEIR OWN TRADITIONS,
VAST TRADITIONS,

OF THEATER, DANCE, CLOWN, MIME,

SORT OF LINEAGES THAT THEY
EMBODIED AS WELL,

AND IN CONJUNCTION WITH
HEARING INTERPRETERS

THAT WERE BRINGING
AN ADDITIONAL...

QUALITY TO THEM.

IN DEBBIE'S CASE, IT WAS,
I THINK,

SHE WAS PRODUCING THE WORK
HERSELF

AND SHE WAS USING DONNA KACHITES
MORE AS AN INTERPRETER.

BUT IN THE RADICAL FORMATION
OF PETER COOK

WITH KENNY LERNER

AND THE, YOU KNOW, THE SORT
OF TENSION

THAT THAT CREATED ON
THE COMMUNITY ITSELF

AND SORT OF THE MISUNDER--

THE POTENTIALS FOR
MISUNDERSTANDING,

IT WAS REALLY A COLLABORATION
OF WORK

BEING CREATED BY A HEARING
AND DEAF PERSON

WITH A DEAF FACE AND A HEARING
KIND OF RADICAL MIND.

SO...

PETER COOK ESSENTIALLY WAS
THE HEADLINER IN MY MIND.

AND I ARRANGED THE CONFERENCE

SO THAT HE WAS THE HEADLINER,
HE WAS THE LAST.

AND WE HAD PANELS

AND WE HAD READINGS.

AND...

THERE WAS JUST A LOT OF
GET-TOGETHER STUFF GOING ON,

AND IT WAS JUST--AND WE
DOCUMENTED IT.

AND I THINK THAT WAS
AN ESSENTIAL ELEMENT

I'D GAINED FROM NAROPA,

WHICH NOW HAS ITS OWN
AUDIO ARCHIVES,

WHICH IS SO VAST.

AND THEN COMING TO NTID, THAT
WAS SOMETHING THEY COULD DO.

AND SO THAT WAS VERY GOOD 'CAUSE
WE HAD REALLY HIGH QUALITY

DOCUMENTATION TOOLS
AT OUR DISPOSAL,

AND THEY WERE INTERPRETED,
FULLY INTERPRETED.

AND SO THEY WERE...

STRONGLY ATTENDED,

AND THE PEOPLE THAT MET
EACH OTHER,

I THINK, WERE BONDED.

THERE WAS SORT OF THIS
SENSE OF HIGH-LEVEL-,

BEST-MINDS POETS
COMING TOGETHER

AT BOTH ENDS OF A GENERATION

OR SEVERAL GENERATIONS.

BUT THERE WAS THAT SENSE OF
BEST MINDS OF A GENERATION

KIND OF COMING TOGETHER

AND PRESENTING THEIR WORK

WITH GREAT DIGNITY
AND DIFFERENCE.

MIRIAM: DID YOU FEEL THAT YOU
CAUGHT ANY FLACK

FOR--YOU MENTIONED VERY BRIEFLY
ABOUT BEING A HEARING PERSON

INVOLVED IN THIS
AND THE SENSITIVITY

THAT YOU HAD TO HAVE TO
THE FACT THAT DEAF PEOPLE

SO OFTEN FEEL THAT THEIR THINGS
ARE CO-OPTED AND WHATEVER.

DID ANY OF THAT SPILL OVER
DURING THE CONFERENCE,

OR WAS IT OVERTLY DEALT WITH?

I KNOW THAT KENNY HAD TO DEAL
WITH THAT OF THE--

YOU KNOW, AND PETER HAD TO DEAL
WITH HAVING KENNY

AS HIS PARTNER, YOU KNOW.

"YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE A HEARING
PERSON INVOLVED IN THIS;

"THIS IS DEAF STUFF,
SACRED TERRITORY;

WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?"
KIND OF THING

AND SLOG THROUGH THAT.

COHN: YEAH, I THINK KENNY LERNER
TOOK ON

THE BULK OF DISPARAGEMENT

AND...

AND DISCREDITING.

THERE WAS...

IT WASN'T MEANT, YOU KNOW,
I THINK,

IN ANY KIND OF
TRULY MALICIOUS WAY.

IT WAS JUST MEANT--
IT JUST HAPPENED.

IN THE SAME SENSE, HE WAS CAST
INTO THE ROLE OF

LIKE '65 NEWPORT DYLAN
PLUGGING IN,

AND HE JUST SORT OF HAD
TO FACE THAT.

AND ESSENTIALLY, I THINK
HE DIDN'T CARE

AND IT WASN'T HIS DEAL.

ESSENTIALLY, THAT WAS OTHER
PEOPLE'S PROBLEMS ABOUT...

AND THE THING WAS,

PEOPLE WOULD KEEP COMING BACK.

THEY ACTUALLY LIKED WHAT
WAS HAPPENING SO MUCH.

AND AT THE SAME TIME,

IT'S ONE OF THOSE GREAT MOMENTS
WHERE IN TRUE ART,

LASTING ART, WHERE YOU'RE
DISAGREEING WITH IT

EVERY STEP OF THE WAY THAT
YOU'RE FALLING IN LOVE WITH IT.

AND SO, AS THEIR WORK STARTED
THEN REALLY

BEING EXPOSED TO THE DEAF
COMMUNITY

IN A NATIONAL WAY,

AND IT'S--IT IS VERY--
I DON'T KNOW HOW
DIFFICULT IT IS NOW,

BUT IF YOU WANT TO START
BANGING THE DRUMS

OF THE DEAF GRAPEVINE,

THAT MESSAGE GETS OUT THERE
PRETTY FAST.

AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE
WERE CONFUSED

IN ESSENCE BY WHAT PETER
WAS PUTTING OUT

IN TERMS OF A POEM

AND HOW HE WAS USING ASL
AS POETRY,

BECAUSE IN A WAY,
HE WAS PUTTING IT OUT

SUCH THAT HE UNDERSTOOD
WHAT IT WAS ABOUT,

BUT HE WASN'T PARTIC--
BUT THEY DIDN'T.

SO THERE WAS A QUESTION OF,
LIKE, "WELL, THIS POEM ISN'T,

LIKE, ABSOLUTELY
MAKING SENSE TO ME,"

BUT THAT DIDN'T MEAN THAT EVERY
LINE WASN'T BRILLIANT

OR EVERY PHRASE OF
PICTURE-MAKING

WASN'T JUST TAKEN FROM MOST
MEMORABLE SCENES OF LIFE

SO THAT THEIR IMPACT
WAS, IN FACT, GREAT.

BUT HE WAS DOING POETRY
IN A CONTEMPORARY SENSE

THAT, LIKE, HE WAS MAKING
THE SENSE OF HIS OWN MIND

AND HE WAS MAKING--
HE WAS LAYING THAT OUT

AS HIS GIFT FOR PEOPLE.

AND HE WAS ALSO LAYING OUT
A GIFT

THAT WASN'T HIS OWN MIND

OR EVEN NECESSARILY HIS OWN--

HE DIDN'T NECESSARILY EVEN
NECESSARILY AGREE WITH IT

BECAUSE HE HADN'T PARTICULARLY
WRITTEN

THE ENTIRE THING THAT HE WAS
DOING.

HE WAS JUST PULLING OFF
THE--

HE WAS THE CONVEYER
OF THE BOMB

THAT SORT OF THE BOMBER
HAD MADE

ON SOME LEVEL.

AND--BUT PETER'S SENSE OF--

AS THE BOMB CARRIER
WASN'T LIKE--

WAS REALLY THE SENSE THAT WE HAD
WISHED FOR

POETRY COMMUNITIES AROUND
THE WORLD

INSOFAR AS POETRY BOMBS

INSTEAD OF SUICIDE BOMBS.

I MEAN, THEY WERE LIKE--
THEY WERE ANTI-SUICIDE BOMBERS.

AND ESSENTIALLY, THEY WERE
SPREADING, THEN,

THIS SORT OF RADICAL MESSAGE
OF MIND

THAT JUST WOULD FILL PEOPLE
WITH IMAGINATION

AND THE POTENTIAL TO TELL
A STORY

THAT WASN'T SO LITERAL

OR BE STUCK TO A STORY

THAT WASN'T SO START-
TO-FINISH NARRATIVE,

AND, IN FACT, WAS A STORY
MORE LIKE CUT-AND-PASTED

OR IN A BOROUGH'S TRADITION
OF--

OR IN A SAMPLED KIND OF MANNER

OR IN A CINEMATIC MANNER,
WHERE YOU'RE LIKE

LOOKING AT TECHNIQUE OF VIEWS
AND ANGLES

AND EXITS AND ENTRANCES

AND TAKING THAT WHOLE HISTORY

AND TOTALLY JUST TURNING IT
UPSIDE DOWN

AND INSIDE OUT.

AND THEY WERE DOING ALL THAT.

PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS
INCREDIBLE,

AND IT WAS NOTHING THAT THEY HAD
EVER SEEN BEFORE.

AND REGARDLESS OF OTHER DEAF
MEDIA FIGURES AT THE TIME,

WHETHER IT--BECAUSE EVEN
SOMEONE LIKE BERNARD BRAGG,

WHO WAS PROBABLY
THE MOST WELL-KNOWN DEAF

MEDIA FIGURE, ACTOR,

THEY WEREN'T REALLY DOING
THEIR OWN THING.

AND THEIR OWN THING WAS
PROBABLY NOT A THING

THAT WAS SORT OF BENT BY...

INTRODUCTION OF SORT OF,

SHALL WE SAY, ALTERNATE
CONSCIOUSNESS.

AND...

THERE WAS AN ALTERNATE
CONSCIOUSNESS UNIVERSE

BEING CREATED HERE.

AND I THINK THAT THAT WAS
THE THING

THAT PEOPLE WANTED TO GO
INTO,

AND IN A FEARLESS MANNER.

SO...

I THINK A COMMUNITY
OF PEOPLE

WERE AT ONCE TOTALLY
ANGERED BY

THE INTRODUCTION OF
AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE,

YOU KNOW, PARALLEL UNIVERSES,
PARALLEL COSMOS,

INTO THEIR OWN HANDS
BY THIS ONE GUY

WITH A HIDDEN HEARING PERSON.

AND I THINK KENNY TOOK A LOT
OF THAT ON.

BUT ESSENTIALLY,

THE WORK IS ALL THAT MATTERS.

AND THE WORK THAT WAS
BEING DONE

WAS VISIONARY
IN A NEW SENSE

AND ALSO COUPLED TO GREAT
VISIONARY WORK

OF THE PAST,

EVEN WITHOUT NECESSARILY
BEING LITERATE

IN A VERY CONSCIOUS OR
A STUDIOUS MANNER TOWARDS IT.

SO I THINK KENNY TOOK
THE HEAT.

I RECALL HIM SORT OF LIKE,
YOU KNOW,

SHAKING HIS HEAD LIKE,
YOU KNOW,

"WHY ME?"

HE WAS SORT OF THE PERSON
THAT WAS CRUCIFIED.

AND MY CRUCIFIXION.
CAME LATER

AND...

THAT WAS AT ANOTHER
CONFERENCE, YEAH.

MIRIAM: YEAH, I'M NOT SURE
WE'RE GONNA GO THERE TODAY.

IT'S FURTHER THAN THAT TIME
THAN THIS TIME.

COHN: THAT'S GOOD.

MIRIAM: 'CAUSE I THINK--

COHN: I MEAN, IT'S NOT REALLY
A CRUCIFIXION, EITHER.

MIRIAM: WELL, IN A SENSE...
[INDISTINCT],

BUT I THINK FOR
THE PURPOSES OF THIS,

SINCE THAT WAS THE
LIT CONFERENCE

AND IT GOES INTO OTHER REALMS...

COHN: GOOD.

MIRIAM: I THINK I'M GONNA
KEEP IT ON POETRY, AND I MEAN--

COHN: GOOD.

MIRIAM: NOT EVEN GO IN TO THAT--
EVEN THOSE OTHER CONFERENCES--

COHN: OK, YEAH.

MIRIAM: ...AT ALL. I MIGHT
CHANGE MY MIND ABOUT THAT LATER,

IN WHICH CASE I'LL FLY YOU BACK.

COHN: I HOPE YOU DON'T.

MIRIAM: HA HA! I DON'T THINK
WE NEED TO FOR THIS STORY.

I'M REALLY WORRIED ABOUT TIME--
- YEAH, OK.

MIRIAM: FOR YOUR
LITTLE GIRL AND STUFF.

LET ME JUST SEE
IF THERE'S ANYTHING

THAT I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO HAVE.

PRETTY MUCH GOT EVERYTHING.

I THINK THE ONE THING
THAT I'D REALLY

LIKE YOU TO ADDRESS...

IS THERE A WAY THAT YOU CAN
DESCRIBE WHY

THE STUFF THAT DEBBIE
AND PETER WAS DOING,

WHY IS IT BEAT?

IT'S HARD TO PUT A DEFINITION
ON WHAT BEAT POETRY IS

AND WHY ALLEN GINSBERG WAS BEAT.

WHY ARE THESE BEAT--

WHY ARE THESE DEAF POETS
CONSIDERED BEAT?

WHY DO YOU SEE IT AS
A TRANSVERSE OF THIS

DEAF BEAT POETRY?

SO, MAYBE--I DON'T MEAN TO BE
SIMPLISTIC,

BUT IS THERE A WAY THAT YOU
COULD SAY,

YOU KNOW, WHY WAS BEAT POETRY
AT ALL DIFFERENT

FROM THE THINGS THAT CAME
BEFORE IT

AND WHY WOULD YOU--IF YOU COULD
SAY WHY

THIS WOULD BE CALLED
BEAT POETRY

IN THE DEAF COMMUNITY?

COHN: WELL, I JUST THINK
THAT THE BEAT GENERATION

WAS A MARKETING...

IT WAS MARKETING LINGO.

UM...

AND IT WAS A WAY TO DEFINE
A GROUP OF PEOPLE

FOR MARKETING PURPOSES.

SO, YOU KNOW,

THERE'S NO REAL BEAT GENERATION,
PER SE.

THERE'S NO GENERATIONS, PER SE.

I DO THINK THAT...

AND IN RETROSPECT, I DON'T THINK
I WAS WRONG

IN SORT OF, LIKE, CHARACTERIZING
THIS AS A DEAF BEAT SUMMIT.

I DO THINK THAT ALLEN GINSBERG,
IN PARTICULAR,

WAS FOCUSED ON COMPASSION,

AND HE WAS FOCUSED ON
MAINLINING--

THE POET'S JOB WAS TO MAINLINE
INTO MASS SUFFERING.

SO...

YOU HAD TO HAVE A SE--

YOU HAD TO SORT OF ACCESS
YOUR OWN SECRET MIND

TO GET THERE.

AND SO,

YOU HAD TO DISCLOSE.

AND I MEAN, YOU KNOW,
ON SOME LEVEL,

PEOPLE ARE--WE'RE ALL HUNG UP
ON DISCLOSURE,

PARTICULARLY IN THE KIND
OF SOCIETY

WHERE, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE
CAMERAS STUCK TO OUR EYEBALLS

LOOKING AT US,
AND THEY KNOW

WHERE WE'VE BEEN
OR THEY KNOW WHAT WE'VE BOUGHT.

THEY KNOW.

SO, BUT...

YOU KNOW, IN THE REALM
OF DISABILITY

OR IN THE REALM OF, YOU KNOW,
THAT UNFILLED FIELD OF DEAFNESS,

THAT'S NOT A DISABILITY
AND NOT NECESSARILY ABILITY,

BUT, IN FACT, IS REALLY
ITS OWN ASPECT OF LIFE.

IT SORT OF PLAYS--

IT SORT OF PLAYS THE FENCE.

IT PLAYS IT BOTH WAYS.

AND I MEAN,
WHEN THE TIME COMES

TO NOT BE--HAVE THAT SORT OF...

COALITION, YOU KNOW,

IT CAN BE--IT'LL GO EITHER WAY.

AS A PEOPLE.

BUT AT THAT POINT...

AND NOW...

I'D...

I CAN'T SAY FOR SURE, BUT...

I'VE KIND OF, LIKE,
LOST MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT.

MIRIAM: HA! WELL, I WAS ASKING
ABOUT WHY PETER AND DEBBIE

WOULD BE CONSIDERED--
WHY YOU WOULD THINK

THEY WERE DEAF BEAT POETS?

LIKE, WHY IS THEIR POETRY
DIFFERENT

FROM ELLA, CLAYTON, AND PANARA?

IT OBVIOUSLY IS WHEN YOU
LOOK AT IT,

JUST AS ALLEN GINSBERG IS
DIFFERENT

THAN EMILY DICKINSON.

AND EMILY DICKINSON HAD JUST AS
MUCH COMPASSION

AND SELF-DISCLOSURE.

I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT THE WHOLE
THING WAS ALL ABOUT.

SO I'M NOT REALLY SURE

THAT THE SELF-DISCLOSURE PART--

I MEAN, POETS ALL THROUGH
THE AGES,

IT'S BEEN THE IMPETUS
FOR THEIR ART AND THEIR SELF.

IT'S ALL ABOUT SELF-DISCLOSURE
AND ALL ABOUT

THAT SORT OF ANGST
AND WELTSCHMERZ

AND ALL THAT
KIND OF THING.

COHN: RIGHT.

MIRIAM: SO IS IT FORM?

IT SEEMS THAT THERE'S A GREAT
DEAL OF IT

THAT HAS TO DO WITH FORM.

PANARA TALKED ABOUT THAT
IN OUR INTERVIEW,

OR DURING THE WORKSHOP,
ABOUT FREE VERSE

AND HOW FREEING IT WAS TO BE
ABLE TO NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT.

SO, THE LACK OF FORM
IN A SENSE

OR THE PLAYING OF FORM,

OR IS THERE ANY OTHER THING?

COHN: I DON'T THINK THAT
FORM RULED

FOR PETER COOK OR DEBBIE RENNIE.

AND THAT'S NOT TO SAY

THAT THEIR WORKS AREN'T
EXCEEDINGLY FORMAL. UM...

THE FORMAL ELEMENTS ARE
PROBABLY WHAT WE SEE.

AND THOSE ELEMENTS ARE
THE THINGS

THAT PROBABLY ARE THE THINGS
THAT ARE AFFECTING US MOST

ON SOME LEVEL.

BUT I THINK IT'S

THE VISION THAT THEY BRING
TO THE POEM.

I THINK IT IS A LEVEL
OF DISCLOSURE

THAT THEY BRING TO THE POEM.

I DO THINK THAT THEY BROUGHT
A SECRET MIND

TO THE POEM
AND LET IT OUT THERE.

AND I--EVERYTHING FROM...

YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING FROM
PETER COOK DOING HIS

ORAL PRESENTATION "IF I WAS
ORDERED NOT TO TALK"

TO--WHICH IS AN ULTIMATE KIND
OF SECRET-MIND DISCLOSURE,

WHICH CARRIES A LOT OF EMOTION

AND A LOT OF INTEGRITY WITH IT,

TO HIS SORT OF MORE SURREAL--

AND I GUESS IT WAS THE
SURREALISM THAT THEY

BROUGHT TO THEIR POETRY,

SO THAT THEY REALLY WERE NOT
HUNG UP ON

THE REPRESENTATIONAL.

THEY WEREN'T PRESENTING POEMS
IN THE CLASSIC

SORT OF STORYTELLING

OR IN AMERICAN LETTERS WAY,
OBJECTIVIST WAY,

SORT OF LIKE OBITUARY KIND OF
LIKE WRITING,

LIKE "AUNT ROSE HAD 4 CHILDREN
AND SHE DIED.

AND SHE'S BURIED HERE."

BUT THEY--OR "THE SNOW CAME
DOWN AND IT WAS BEAUTIFUL."

BUT THERE WAS A SURREAL
SENSE OF...

ALMOST IN THE SENSE OF LIKE
SOMEONE LIKE ROBERT DESNOS,

THE FRENCH POET,

OR THE SENSE OF...

THERE'S SOMETHING REALLY
INTERNATIONAL

ABOUT WHAT THEIR VOCABULARY WAS.

AND...

AND THEIR VOCABULARY EXHIBITED
A CERTAIN KIND OF SURREAL SENSE

OF TIME AND SPACE AND LIFE

THAT I THINK IS PART OF THIS
ALTERNATE CONSCIOUSNESS

THAT THE BEAT GENERATION TURNS
OUT BEING SORT OF ABOUT

IN A SENSE OF AN ON-THE-ROAD
CULTURE.

IT'S PART OF THAT STREET
LANGUAGE

THAT IS, YOU KNOW, SEES LIKE
"TIME" MAGAZINE

AS OFFICIAL U.S. SORT OF
DOCTRINE ON WHAT IS HAPPENING

IN THE WORLD THIS WEEK.

BUT I THINK LATER,
AS TIME WENT ON,

AND FOR MYSELF AND MY CONNECTION
WITH THESE POETS,

IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT
BEAT GENERATION POETS.

SO, WE WERE SOMETHING ELSE,

AND OUR TIME HAS NOT BEEN
DEFINED.

AND WE DON'T HAVE SCHOLARS
AND CRITICS

STUDYING US WITH NECESSARILY
AS MUCH CERTAINTY

BECAUSE THE MEDIA ISN'T
TELLING THE WORLD

WITH ANY KIND OF CERTAINTY
THAT THIS IS EVEN HAPPENING,

LET ALONE THAT THIS IS GOOD.

SO...

I CONSIDER THE SURREALISTIC
QUALITIES,

THE ADVENTURES IN FORM,

WHAT IS BEING BROUGHT,

SORT OF TO THE MARKETPLACE
OF IDEAS

IS IN THEIR POEMS,

SUCH AS "DEJA VU SALESMAN,"

WHICH WAS ALWAYS A--

I REMEMBER BEING SO KNOCKED OUT
WHEN I SAW THAT.

LIKE, I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS
IS HAPPENING.

I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT THIS
IS BEING FORMULATED.

SO I WAS NEVER AT A SENSE
THAT THIS ISN'T

HAPPENING TO ME THROUGH FORM,

BUT I WAS TAKING IN SOMETHING
PERSONALLY

THAT WAS LIKE BEYOND LANGUAGE.

IT WAS SORT OF IN THE META
LANGUAGE LEVELS

THAT YOU COULD GO TO IN LIKE
SPALDING GRAY'S

"SWIMMING TO CAMBODIA,"

OR YOU KIND OF GO INTO WHEN
YOU'RE READING A POEM

WHERE YOU'RE JUST--

YOUR WORLD AND THE WORLD THAT
YOU'RE READING ABOUT

OR WATCHING IS SORT OF
CREATING THIS WHOLE OTHER MOVIE

IN YOUR MIND WHILE IT'S GOING ON

THAT IS EVEN--IT'S A COLLECTIVE
CONSCIOUSNESS

THAT YOU'VE ENTERED INTO.

SO THIS PERSON HAS OPENED DOORS

TO SORT OF A HIGHER
CONSCIOUSNESS.

AND...

AND IT WAS HAPPENING
AFTER THE BEATS.

SO MY AFFINITY WITH
THE DEAF POETS

OF MY LIFETIME NOW

IS THAT WE'RE PART OF
A POST-BEAT ERA,

WHICH, YOU KNOW, IS DEFINED BY
DIFFERENT PARAMETERS

AND GREATER COMPLEXITIES
AND MORE INSTANT COMMUNICATION

AND ENCYCLOPEDIC STYLES
FROM WHICH TO CHOOSE FROM,

ALMOST AN OVERPLAY OF POTENTIAL
STYLES.

I MEAN, YOU CAN HAVE
ITALIAN--

YOU CAN RIP OFF PASSAGES OF
ANYTHING FROM THE INTERNET

AND PUT IT INTO YOUR POEM,
OR YOU CAN DO--

YOU CAN SORT OF RIP OFF
ANY VISUAL THAT YOU SEE

AND PUT IT INTO YOUR POEM.

I MEAN, JUST THE EXPLOSION
OF THE VISUAL

OR TEXTUAL WORLDS THAT
WE'RE LIVING IN

DEFINES US DIFFERENTLY THAN THAT
ERA THAT WE CAME FROM,

BUT I THINK THAT

THERE'S A GREAT AFFINITY
FOR WHAT I SAW

IN THE DISREGARD FOR OFFICIAL
VERSIONS

OF THE WAY THE WORLD IS

FROM THOSE TWO POETS

THAT THE OTHERS
DID NOT RECEIVE,

OR THEY WALKED WITH A MORE
MILITANT OR A MORE, UH...

THEY WERE IN A MORE AMBIGUOUS
TIME OF BEING ALONE,

TRYING TO WORK OUT FOR
THEMSELVES

A SENSE OF WHAT WAS RIGHT
FOR THEM, UM...

AND...

BY THE TIME--IT SORT OF WAS
THE DIFFERENCE

BETWEEN PERRY COMO
AND THE BEATLES.

IT JUST WAS LIKE THAT MUCH
OF A CULTURAL EXPLOSION

AS A DIFFERENCE.

AND WHERE--THERE WAS A CERTAIN
TRANQUILITY

THAT I THINK CLAYTON VALLI
WAS AFTER...AFTER,

A NEED FOR SERENITY.

AND I THINK ELLA LENTZ
WAS ENGAGED

IN A CERTAIN KIND OF MILITANCY.

AND PATRICK GRAYBILL
WAS INVESTED

WITH A CERTAIN KIND OF PATHOS
OR ETHOS,

A CERTAIN KIND OF SOULFULNESS

THAT--AND SKILLED WITH,
AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT,

A WHOLE OTHER PATRICK GRAYBILL
SENSE OF BEING ABLE

TO ACTUALLY--TO RIP OFF
HIS CLOTHES.

AND THEN THERE WAS THIS WHOLE
OTHER BEING, IN FACT, THERE,

BUT SORT OF RESTRAINED,

FIGHTING AGAINST RESTRAINED,
HIS OWN RESTRAINT.

I THINK THERE WAS AN ELEMENT
OF RESTRAINT

THAT PEOPLE WERE STILL
SHACKLED BY,

THAT SOMEHOW THIS COLLECTION
OF HEARING AND DEAF

AND MEN AND WOMEN
AND GAY AND STRAIGHT

AND...

DEAF AND HARD-OF-HEARING

AND POSTLINGUAL AND, YOU KNOW,
PRELINGUAL

AND...

AND THE VARIOUS BEAT TRADITIONS
THAT HAD BEEN BROUGHT FORWARD

THAT THE POETS WHO WERE
HEARING WERE EMBODYING

IN THEIR OWN SEPARATE KIND OF
CHANNELS

AND CARRYING FORWARD.

I JUST THINK THAT THAT
BRANG WITH IT

THIS WHOLE OTHER SENSE
OF LIKE, YOU KNOW,

THE SKY'S THE LIMIT.

"WE'RE JUST GONNA

"TEAR THIS HOTEL ROOM UP

"AND THEN WE'RE GONNA GO DOWN
AND DO THE SHOW,

"AND THEN WE'RE GONNA COME BACK

"AND, YOU KNOW, AND WE'RE GONNA,
LIKE, LOOK AT WHAT WE DID

"AND TALK ABOUT IT
ALL NIGHT LONG,

"AND THEN WE'RE GONNA KEEP
TALKING ABOUT IT.

AND WE'RE NOT GONNA STOP
TALKING ABOUT IT."

AND WHY IT WAS SO INTERESTING
TO TALK ABOUT,

I JUST THINK IT WAS.

AND WHY IT WAS ROCHESTER?

I JUST THINK IT WAS...

IT JUST HAPPENED
FOR ITS OWN REASONS,

WHICH ISN'T AN ANSWER,

BUT I JUST THINK THE MIX
OF THINGS WAS RIGHT,

THE SAME WAY THE MIX OF THINGS
WAS RIGHT IN THE PARIS HOTEL,

YOU KNOW, FOR THE BEATS

WHEN THEY WERE IN EXILE.

SO WE WERE ALL SERVING IN EXILE
FROM SOMETHING, I WOULD THINK,

AND LOOKING FOR A WAY TO JUST

BE OURSELVES AS POETS

IN A SOCIETY THAT WASN'T
AND ACTUALLY GROWS

SORT OF LESS INTERESTED
IN TRULY WHAT THE POWER OF

THE PERSONAL IN POETIC
EXPRESSION.

MIRIAM: IT WAS THE
"HYDROGEN JUKEBOX."

COHN: YEAH.

[MIRIAM LAUGHS]

MIRIAM: JUST BLEW IT UP.
HA HA!

- THAT'S IT.
- OK.

- THAT'S GREAT.
- ALL RIGHT.

- THAT'S GREAT.
- ALL RIGHT.

MIRIAM: THAT'S REALLY GOOD.

[MAN SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY]

MIRIAM: ISN'T IT AWESOME?

- ISN'T THAT AWESOME?
- WHAT?

MIRIAM: HOW ARE WE GONNA
EVEN FIGURE OUT

WHICH PARTS, YOU KNOW?

IT'S AWESOME.

ONE THING I WANTED TO TELL YOU--

I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO
TAKE THE TIME--WAS THAT,

ONE OF THE THINGS
PATRICK SAID WAS THAT

WHEN HE WATCHED THE SAMPLER
DVD I GAVE HIM,

HE WAS VERY STRUCK BY THE FACT
OF HOW HE AND ELLA AND PANARA

AND CLAYTON WERE JUST
STANDING STILL,

CAMERA ON THEM, FACE FORWARD,

AND THAT DEBBIE AND PETER
MOVED.

AND HE SAID, SO HE REALIZED
THAT HE COULD MOVE.

AND SO HE DECIDED TO TRY
A COUPLE OF THINGS LATER

WHERE HE MOVED,
AND HE'S LIKE...

JUST SAID IT WAS SO FREEING.

HE DIDN'T KNOW HE COULD MOVE.

I MEAN, THERE WERE
JUST THINGS

THAT WERE SO EMBEDDED
IN PERFORMANCE OR IN--

COHN: WISH WE TALKED ABOUT THIS.

SO IT WAS JUST LIKE BEING
AT A HEARING POETRY READING.

MIRIAM: IN A SENSE.
WELL, I WOULDN'T SAY THAT--

IT'S STILL VISUALLY
VERY INTERESTING

TO WATCH PATRICK GRAYBILL--

COHN: RIGHT, BUT THERE WAS
STILL--

MIRIAM: THAT THERE WAS THIS
RIGID THOUGHT, VERY FORMALISTIC.

COHN: LIKE ANGLICANS--
LIKE YOU'RE IN CHURCH.

MIRIAM: RIGHT. AND I HAVE HIM
SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW.

THAT'S IT'S VERY--
YOU KNOW, THAT HE FELT--

YOU KNOW, THAT, "WOW,
WE WERE ROOTED IN THAT STAGE.

WE WERE JUST STANDING THERE."

AND THE OTHER THING I WAS
THINKING OF

WAS THAT WHEN YOU TALK
ABOUT ALL THE IMAGES--

COHN: KENNY'S NOT GONNA SAY
I LEFT OUT

PROBABLY THE BEST PARTS
OF ALL THIS.

I'M REALLY DISAPPOINTED THAT IT
WASN'T LAST NIGHT, BUT...

MIRIAM: OH, OH, OH,
WE CAN REVISIT THAT.

COHN: I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS,
YOU KNOW.

MIRIAM: OH, HA HA HA!
THE OTHER THING I WAS THINKING,

YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT
THE IMAGES AND ALL THE THINGS

THAT POETRY COULD DO NOW
AND ALL THE MEDIA

AND ALL THE THINGS
YOU COULD DO,

AND IT'S LIKE WIKI POETRY,
YOU KNOW--

- MM-HMM.
- GRAB, GRAB, GRAB.

COHN: YEAH. I THINK PROBABLY
SHOULD HAVE USED THAT EXAMPLE.

MIRIAM: RIGHT. I WAS JUST
THINKING IN MY MIND,

"OH, THAT'S WHAT IT'S LIKE."

BUT ANYWAY, THIS IS JUST GREAT.

AND THE OTHER THING WAS LIKE
WHEN YOU WERE TALKING

ABOUT DEAF PEOPLE AND THEIR
OWN SORT OF SET THERE SOMETIMES,

IT WORKS BOTH WAYS.

THEY WORK BOTH SIDES
OF THE FENCE.

IT COULD BE LIKE THAT.
IT'S NOT EVEN A DISABILITY.

IT'S LIKE IT'S OWN SEPARATE
THING. IT'S LIKE TEXAS.

[LAUGHTER]

- I SHOULD HAVE SAID THAT.
- IT CAME TO ME,

THAT THE DEAF IS LIKE TEXAS.

COHN: IT'S LIKE TEXAS.

MIRIAM: JUST LIKE TEXAS, YEAH!

"This project is supported by a Digitizing Hidden Collections grant from the Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR). The grant program is made possible by funding from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation."

Title supplied by cataloger

Heart of the hydrogen jukebox