ds_0027_holmanstephz_cap_01.mp4

ds_0027_holmanstephz_cap_01.mp4

Interviews

Holman, Bob, 1948-

Holman, Bob, 1948- Interviews

Zawerucha, Stefa Interviews

American Sign Language literature

Deaf, Writings of the, American

American poetry 20th century

Deaf Poetry

ASL poetry

Part of a collection of interviews made for a film on ASL poetry, "The Heart of the Hydrogen Jukebox." In the first interview, Bob Holman, proprietor of the Bowery Poetry Club and visiting professor at NYU and Columbia, discusses his involvement with sign poetry. In the second interview, Stefa Zawerucha, dancer and choreographer, talks about her work at NTID starting in the 1980s.

National Technical Institute for the Deaf

Rochester Institute of Technology - RIT Libraries - RIT Archive Collections

Zawerucha, Stefa,

Lerner, Miriam Nathan

2007

2018

moving image

mp4

DVD

89 minutes

American Sign Language

English

RITDSA.0027

Sculptures in the Air: An Accessible Online Video Repository of the American Sign Language (ASL) Poetry and Literature Collections

Miriam and Kenneth Lerner ASL Poetry Collection

2018-2019 CLIR Grant-ASL Poetry and Literature

https://albert.rit.…

https://archivesspa…

New York - Rochester

Henrietta Campus

RIT Libraries makes materials from its collections available for educational and research purposes pursuant to U.S. Copyright Law. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. It is your responsibility to obtain permission from the copyright holder to publish or reproduce images in print or electronic form.

CC BY-NC-ND: Attribution NonCommercial NoDerivatives 4.0 International

MIRIAM NATHAN LERNER: ...PLEASE?
HOLMAN: BOB HOLMAN, POET,

PROPRIETOR OF
THE BOWERY POETRY CLUB,

VISITING PROFESSOR AT NYU's
TISCH SCHOOL OF THE ARTS

AND COLUMBIA'S GRADUATE SCHOOL
OF THE ARTS.

MIRIAM: YOU'RE A VISITING
PROFESSOR HERE.

ARE YOU AN ADJUNCT?
OR YOU JUST BOP IN?

HOLMAN: IT'S A VISITING
PROFESSORSHIP.

SOMEHOW THEY ACQUIRED A NEW LINE
FOR ME. SO...

MIRIAM: COOL.

HOLMAN: IT'S NOT A TENURE TRACK.

BUT IT PAYS BETTER THAN BEING
AN ADJUNCT.

MIRIAM:
ALMOST ANYTHING DOES.

HOLMAN: THAT'S...
MIRIAM: HA HA!

HOLMAN: AND IT COMES WITH
THE BEAUTIFUL TITLE OF

VISITING PROFESSOR.

I JUST DROP IN.

TEACH ONE COURSE A SEMESTER--

ONE COURSE AT NYU IN THE FALL

AND ONE COURSE AT COLUMBIA
IN THE SPRING.

MIRIAM: WHICH COURSES? ARE THEY
INTRO? ARE THEY ADVANCED?

HOLMAN: NO. THEY'RE BOTH
GRADUATE COURSES.

THE ONE AT COLUMBIA IS CALLED
"EXPLODING TEXT."

AND THAT IS A COURSE
IN POETRY PERFORMANCE.

IT'S THE ONLY CROSS-GENRE COURSE

THAT THE SCHOOL
OF THE ARTS OFFERS,

SHOWING YOU EXACTLY
HOW CONSERVATIVE

THE COLUMBIA GRAD SCHOOL IS.

BUT STUDENTS COME, LEARN--

THEY COLLABORATE ON PROJECTS
WITH EACH OTHER

ACROSS DISCIPLINES, USING--
AS TEXTS POEMS,

OFTEN POEMS BY CONTEMPORARY
WRITERS

WHO ARE CONSIDERED DIFFICULT
ON THE PAGE,

EXPERIMENTAL-TYPE POETS,
SHOWING,

YOU KNOW, THE IDEA BEING THAT
THERE'S NO SUCH THING

AS A STAGE POEM OR A PAGE POEM,
THAT ALL IT NEEDS IS

THE IMAGINATION OF THE VISIONARY
TO WORK WITH THE POET

NOW THAT WE HAVE THESE THINGS
CALLED CAMERAS,

THESE TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCES
THAT POETS DON'T NECESSARILY

HAVE TO LEARN TO USE.

THAT'S SOMEBODY ELSE'S JOB,
LIKE YOURS.

AND THE COURSE I'M TEACHING AT
NYU IS CALLED

"ART IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE."

AND IT'S A COURSE ABOUT
THE UTILITY

OF CULTURAL ORGANIZATIONS ON
THE LOWER EAST SIDE

FROM THE 1860s TO 2060. SO...

IT'S RIGHT IN THE MIDST OF
THE TRANSITION.

AND WE'RE HAVING OUR PERFORMANCE
OVER AT THE BOWERY POETRY CLUB

IN TWO HOURS.

AND THE CLUB, OF COURSE, IS IN
ITS OWN WAY A KIND OF ANCHOR

IN THE WHIRLWIND OF THE CURRENT
GENTRIFICATION.

IS IT THE FINAL DEATH KNELL TO
THE TRANSIENT NEIGHBORHOOD

OF THE LOWER EAST SIDE,
AS EVERYTHING BECOMES

A THEME PARK OF ITSELF?

OR ARE WE SIMPLY WATCHING
ANOTHER CYCLE?

LUCKILY, MY STUDENTS HAVE
FIGURED IT ALL OUT

AND WILL BE PERFORMING IT
ONSTAGE TODAY.

MIRIAM: WOW. TELL ME WHAT
THE ANSWER IS AT THE END...

HOLMAN: YOU GOT TO--OK, I WILL.
I'LL CALL YOU UP.

I THINK YOU'LL HAVE TO BE THERE.

YOU'LL PROBABLY HAVE OTHER WORK
TO DO.

HOW LATE DO YOU THINK YOU GUYS
ARE GONNA STAY HERE? ANY IDEA?

MIRIAM: HOPE TO BE OUT
BY 3:30 OR 4:00.

HOLMAN: OH, BEAUTIFUL. OK.
MIRIAM: IS THAT OK?

HOLMAN: OH, SURE.

MIRIAM: HOW LONG HAVE YOU
BEEN A POET

OR CONSIDERED YOURSELF A POET?

HOLMAN: IN THE THIRD GRADE--
I WAS SICK WHEN THEY DID POEMS.

AND WHEN I CAME BACK, THEY WERE
UP ON THE WALL,

AND I WAS REALLY UPSET
THAT THEY HAD STARTED

AT SUCH A JUVENILE LEVEL WITH
THE WORK.

SO I WROTE MY POEM.

IT MUST HAVE BEEN FEBRUARY,
FLU SEASON.

I WROTE MY POEM,

"GEORGE WASHINGTON FOLLOWED
INDIAN TRAILS."

EVEN THEN, I WAS A POLITICALLY
CORRECT 9 YEAR OLD

AND TOOK IT UP TO THE TEACHER.

SHE SAID, "OH, ROBERT, THIS
IS SUCH A LOVELY POEM.

WHERE DID YOU COPY IT FROM?"

SO I WAS HOOKED. YEAH.
SO I GUESS 9, SINCE 9.

MIRIAM:
DID YOU START READING

VERY SOPHISTICATED POETRY AT
A PRECOCIOUS TIME...

HOLMAN: YES, I WAS
A REAL READER.

MY MOTHER WAS A GREAT TEACHER,
YOU KNOW,

AND THAT MYSTERY OF HOW ONE GOES
FROM THE VOICE OF YOUR MOTHER

OR WHOEVER IS YOUR LULLABYER
INTO READING YOURSELF,

HOW YOU CONNECT THROUGH
THE WRITTEN WORD,

THROUGH THE PRINTED WORD
IS SOMETHING

THAT STILL IS INSPIRING
AND MYSTERIOUS TO ME.

SO I OWE IT ALL TO MOM. HA HA!

MIRIAM: WHEN DID YOU JUMP
FROM WRITING MOSTLY?

I MEAN, YOU'RE
VERY PERFORMANCE-ORIENTED.

SO YOU DON'T ALWAYS WRITE JUST
FOR THE PAGE.

YOU PARTICULARLY
WANTED TO CONNECT...

HOLMAN: WELL, I DO ALWAYS WRITE
FOR THE PAGE, WHICH IS TO SAY

IF YOU WRITE, IT'S FOR THE PAGE,
YOU KNOW?

THERE'S NO WAY TO WRITE--WHAT
ARE YOU...

YOU'RE WRITING ON A PAGE, OR NOW
YOU CAN WRITE ON A SCREEN,

WHICH GIVES WITH DIGITAL
TECHNOLOGY, YOU KNOW,

AT LEAST AN OPENING INTO SAYING,

"WELL, I'M NOT WRITING
FOR THE PAGE.

I'M WRITING FOR THE PIXELIZATION
OF THE LIGHT IMPLANTS,"

OR WHATEVER.

I'M NOT THINKING ABOUT HOW TO
PERFORM IT AS I'M DOING IT,

AS I'M WRITING,

BUT, WHILE I AM
PERFORMING, I AM THINKING ABOUT

WHETHER THESE WORDS ARE WORKING
OR WHERE CAN THEY LEAD ME TO.

SO IN A SENSE
WHEN I'M PERFORMING,

I CONTINUE TO WRITE, ALTHOUGH IN
THAT SITUATION, I'M NOT WRITING.

I'M IN THE AIR, RIGHT?

SO, YOU KNOW, THE WORDS GET ALL
MESSED UP WHEN YOU START

TO INTEGRATE ORALITY
AND LITERATURE AND TEXT.

BECAUSE WE ARE SUCH TEXTUAL
BEASTS RIGHT NOW THAT THE IDEA

OF, YOU KNOW, WHEN HIP-HOPPERS
DO THEIR POEMS, THEY SAY,

"I'M GONNA READ FOR YOU,"
EVEN THOUGH THE POEM

IS NOT IN THEIR HANDS,
ON A PIECE OF PAPER

AND IN SOME CASES MAY NEVER
HAVE BEEN IN THEIR HANDS.

IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS
COMPLETELY CREATED.

[DOOR BUZZES]

SELENA GLEN DOES THAT.
WELL, SOMEBODY'S AT THE DOOR.

MIRIAM: THAT'S TOO BAD.
HOLMAN: DO YOU WANT TO DO THAT?

MIRIAM: HOW DO I DO IT...

HOLMAN: SO YOU WANT TO GET ME
BACK ON TRACK

OR YOU WANT ME TO TRY TO GO BACK
INTO IT?

MIRIAM: NO, NO.
I THINK I CAN SEGUES WHERE I...

HOLMAN: OK.
MIRIAM: WANT TO BE HERE.

MAN: YOU'RE GOOD.
MIRIAM: OK. SO...YEAH.

YOU WERE SAYING THAT EVEN
HIP HOPPERS, THEY SAY THEY'RE

READING IT IF THEY'RE
PERFORMING IT

WITHOUT A PAPER IN FRONT
OF THEM.

AND SO WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER YOUR
PARTICULAR FORM OF POETRY

IF YOU HAVE A LABEL FOR IT?

HOLMAN: WELL, YOU KNOW,
OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, HERE I AM

IN THE ACADEMY, WHICH IS
WHY WE NEED LABELS, RIGHT?

WE ALSO NEED LABELS
BECAUSE THERE ARE JUST

SO MANY MORE PEOPLE NOW.

WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT THINGS
FOR EVERYBODY TO DO.

WE NEED LABELS BECAUSE THE
HORRIFIC TRIUMPH OF CAPITALISM

KNOWS THAT TO SELL SOMETHING,
IT HAS TO HAVE

A SPECIFIC AND SEXY NAME SO THAT
PEOPLE ARE GONNA WANT TO BUY IT,

YOU KNOW.

RIGHT NOW, SPOKEN WORD HAS
THE LEAD IN WHAT I DO.

EVEN THOUGH WORDS LIKE
"SPOKEN WORD"

OR "POETRY PERFORMANCE" ARE AS
MY TEACHER, WALTER ONG, SAYS,

RETRONYMS.

THAT IS TO SAY, IT'S
THE RENAMING OF THE ORIGINAL

ACCORDING TO WHAT WE CURRENTLY
SEE AS THIS ENTITY.

HIS EXAMPLE WAS "A HORSE IS
AN AUTOMOBILE WITHOUT WHEELS."

AND SO WHEN WE START TALKING
ABOUT PERFORMANCE POETRY,

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT
ORIGINALLY WAS POETRY

FILTERED THROUGH THE LENS OF
HUNDREDS OF YEARS

AND ONLY HUNDREDS OF YEARS
OF TEXT TILL THE POINT

WHERE SPOKEN WORD IS SOMETHING
EXTRAORDINARY

AND A TEXT IS CONSIDERED
THE POEM.

AND FOR POEMS NOT
IN THESE BOOKS,

WE THEN RENAME THE ORIGINAL
ORATURE AS ORAL LITERATURE

OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

I LOVE ALL THE CONFLICTS
BECAUSE THEN YOU GET TO TALK

ABOUT POETRY, WHICH IS THE NEXT
BEST THING TO TALKING POETRY.

MIRIAM: AND THAT MAKES ME
JUMP A LITTLE.

WE'LL PROBABLY GO BACK
AND FORTH.

I WAS GONNA GO,
"HOW DID YOU MEET HIM?

HOW DID YOU GET INTRODUCED
TO DEAF POETRY AND ASL,"

AND ALL THAT, BUT I'M GONNA GO
BACK TO THAT LATER...

YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS
IN ORAL AND PERFORMANCE

AND ALL THAT.

HOW DOES SIGN LANGUAGE POETRY
FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE,

DOES IT RELATE TO EVERYTHING
YOU'RE TELLING ME ABOUT,

YOU KNOW, THIS ORAL THING GOING
BACK TO WHAT IT WAS BEFORE

AND THEN PRINT TOOK OVER?

CAN YOU RELATE YOUR WHOLE
EXPERIENCE OF...?

[AIR WHOOSHING]

HOLMAN: ARE WE OK WITH THAT
HEATER? I COULD TURN IT OFF.

I ALSO NEED TO AT SOME POINT,
MIRIAM,

I FORGOT TO PRINT OUT
MY ASL POEM.

I DON'T KNOW IF I'VE DONE IT
FOR YOU,

BUT I HAVE A POEM
CALLED SOMETHING LIKE

"IF I HAD ALL THE MONEY."

MIRIAM: YOU SIGN IT...

HOLMAN: I DON'T SIGN IT.
MIRIAM: OH.

HOLMAN: YOU CAN SIGN IT.
I'D LOVE SOMEBODY IN AN OVAL.

MIRIAM: HA HA! OK...

HOLMAN: BUT IT'S ABOUT ASL.

MIRIAM: OH, COOL.

HOLMAN: SO I'D LIKE
TO DO THAT, OK?

MIRIAM: YES, GOOD.

HOLMAN: WELL, I HAVE ALWAYS--
FROM THE SECOND I SAW

PETER AND KENNY--AND THAT WAS
MY FIRST TASTE OF ASL POETRY--

I KNEW THIS WAS PART OF
THE SCENE,

PART OF WHAT'S GOING ON NOW TO
RECLAIM POETRY'S MUSICALITY

AND ORIGINS SO THAT IT
COULD HAVE A UTILITY

IN A WORLD...
THAT IS ANTIPOETIC,

WHERE POETRY HAS BECOME
THE PROPERTY

OF A FEW SMALL BOOK PUBLISHERS

AND WHERE POEMS ARE GENERALLY
WRITTEN FOR OTHER PRACTITIONERS,

WHERE POETRY--THIS IS WHEN I
WAS COMING UP--

POETRY WAS GENERALLY THOUGHT OF
AS SOMETHING THAT SOMEBODY

WAS GOING TO TEACH YOU AND IT
WAS GONNA BE BORING,

AND YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE
TO MEMORIZE IT,

AND IT REALLY WAS AN ANTIQUITY.

NOW POEMS ARE VITAL
IN THE LANGUAGE OF YOUTH

AND THE WHOLE HIP-HOP CULTURE
THAT IS...

ONE OF THE MOST
IMPORTANT MOVEMENTS GLOBALLY

IS BASED ON POETS
SPEAKING WORDS.

SO IT'S AN AMAZING--

IT'S BEEN A GREAT RIDE IN
THE MIDST OF A REALLY TERRIFYING

DESTRUCTION OF OUR COUNTRY

AND THE TAKEOVER OF CORPORATIONS
ACROSS THE GLOBE.

BUT THE POETIC ECONOMY IS
STILL STANDING UP,

HE SAID, SITTING DOWN,

AND THE POETIC OR GIFT ECONOMY.

SO, YOU KNOW, THAT IS WHAT
PETER IS DOING UP THERE.

HE'S GIVING IT AWAY.

HE'S GIVING IT AWAY TO
EVERYBODY,

AND EVERYBODY IS VERY HAPPILY
RECEIVING IT.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THEY'RE
GIVING IT BACK.

AND THAT'S THE POETIC ECONOMY
AS OPPOSED TO $25

FOR A TICKET
TO THE 92nd STREET Y,

OR, "PLEASE GIVE MONEY TO YOUR
LOCAL POETRY ORGANIZATION"

SO THAT THEY CAN FUND
THE SAME THING

THEY WERE FUNDING 50 YEARS AGO.

YOU KNOW, WHATEVER.

IT'S A NEW THING, AND THAT'S
WHAT IT FELT TO ME--A NEW THING.

YOU KNOW, AND THE MORE YOU
THINK ABOUT IT,

THE MORE THE MAGNIFICENT IRONIES
THAT POETRY INSISTS ON ARE

FISCALIZED BY THE WORK THAT
THE ASL POETS ARE DOING,

STARTING WITH THE FACT THAT
THE BEST EXAMPLE WE HAVE

OF A POETRY IN
THE ORAL TRADITION--

ORAL TRADITION BEING THAT WHICH
IS NOT WRITTEN DOWN--

THE ESSENTIAL POETRY
THAT IS ORAL IS ASL POETRY,

WHICH CANNOT BE WRITTEN DOWN
AND, THEREFORE, IS ONLY ORAL,

AND YET IT'S FROM PEOPLE WHO
DON'T SPEAK.

SO, AGAIN, YOU FIND THE LANGUAGE
FOUNDERING UPON ITSELF.

AND WATCHING PETER'S ABILITY
TO TRANSMUTE SIGN

INTO DANCE, MIME, THEATER, SONG
IS TO WATCH

ALL OF THE SPECIFICATIONS
OF ARTS

INTO THESE DIFFERENT GENRES TO
WASH AWAY

AND TO SEE THAT WHAT ART IS
IS COMMUNICATION

OF A GODLY SORT, COMMUNICATION
THAT IS IN THIS CASE

WHOLE-BODY COMMUNICATION.

AND THAT'S ANOTHER THING THAT
ASL DOES

THAT NONE OF THE OTHER POETRIES
CAN TOUCH.

YOU KNOW, WITH A POET IN
THE ORAL TRADITION

LIKE THE GRIOTS IN WEST AFRICA,
THE JALI POETS,

IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT THE POEM
CANNOT BE SEPARATED

FROM THE EVENT.

THE ANTHROPOLOGISTS ALWAYS HAVE
A HARD TIME FIGURING OUT

WHEN THE POEM BEGINS,

BUT THE POEM BEGINS WHEN THE
GRIOTS GOT THE KORA TUNED UP,

AND SAYS, "COME ON IN HERE.
WE'RE GONNA GET STARTED.

LET'S GO. BRING EVERYBODY IN."

AND THE FIRST WORDS ARE,
"COME ON IN HERE.

WE'RE GOING TO GET STARTED,"
YOU KNOW,

BECAUSE AS THE PEOPLE COME IN
AND THE POET SEES

WHO THE AUDIENCE IS,

THE WAY THAT THE POEM IS
GONNA BE LAID OUT THIS TIME

BECOMES CLEARER

TO THE HISTORIAN/ARTIST/
KEEPER OF TRADITION,

WHO IS THE GRIOT
IN THE ORAL TRADITIONS.

MIRIAM: SO IT'S THE SPONTANEITY
OF WORKING WITH--

THEY HAVE SOMETHING
POSSIBLY PLANNED

OR THEY HAVE A WAY
THEY'RE GONNA GO,

BUT IT CHANGES ACCORDING
TO WHO'S SITTING DOWN ON...

HOLMAN: I THINK I'M DRAWING
A KIND OF COMPARISON

BETWEEN--IN THE HEARING WORLD
HOW IN THE ORAL TRADITION

THE FULL EVENT IS THE POEM.

YOU CAN STRETCH IT EVEN INTO
SAYING THAT A SLAM COULD BE

THE FORM OF A POETRY SLAM

WHERE JUDGES ARE PICKED OUT
OF THE AUDIENCE,

THE RITUALS THAT GO ALONG
WITH THE SLAM.

THE JUDGES HOLD UP THE NUMBERS,

THAT THE AUDIENCE BOOS
THE NUMBERS.

YOU KNOW, ALL OF THIS KIND
OF INTERACTION IS

PART OF THE FRAME FOR THE POEM.

YOU'RE NOT THERE.

ONE OF THE REASONS
WHY POETRY SLAMS WORK IS THAT

YOU DON'T GO TO HEAR THE POET,
YOU KNOW.

YOU GO TO SEE THE SLAM,
TO PARTICIPATE IN IT.

YOU KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR 10
DIFFERENT POETS. WHO ARE THEY?

YOU PROBABLY DON'T KNOW,
YOU KNOW,

AS OPPOSED TO, "LET'S GO HEAR
JOHN ASHBERY READ

HIS LATEST PULITZER
PRIZE-WINNING WORK."

YOU KNOW, THAT'S ONE THING.

"LET'S GO TO THE POETRY SLAM."
THAT'S...

NOT THE ONE THING, YOU KNOW.

MIRIAM: IT'S LIKE GOING TO SEE
"ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW."

THERE'S A FRAMEWORK,
BUT IT'S DIFFERENT EVERY TIME,

BECAUSE OF WHO
THE AUDIENCE IS...

HOLMAN: I THINK
"ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW"

DEFINITELY, YOU KNOW, IS A KIND
OF ORALITY.

YOU KNOW, THE COSTUMING
AND THIS, YOU KNOW,

BUT, OF COURSE, IN THAT CASE,
AT LEAST SO FAR AS I KNOW,

THEY'RE NOT MAKING UP THE WORDS.

YOU KNOW, THEY'RE
USING THE WORDS THAT ARE

ALREADY IN THE FILM TO BRING
THE FILM BACK TO LIFE,

AND TALKING ABOUT HOW FILM
INTERACTS--HELLO!--

WITH ORALITY, WITH POETRY
IS A WHOLE NOTHER QUESTION.

[TELEPHONE RINGS]

MIRIAM: DO YOU HAVE TO GET THAT?

HOLMAN: WELL, TO STOP IT
FROM RINGING.

MIRIAM: WHEN YOU WATCH PETER
AND KENNY--

A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS, ACTUALLY.

FIRST OF ALL, IN TERMS OF WHAT
KENNY SAYS--HIS WORDS,

WHICH HE SORT OF CONSIDERS
CUEING.

HE'S NOT AN INTERPRETER

AND NEVER PRESENTED HIMSELF
AS AN INTERPRETER.

HIS GOAL IS TO GIVE AS FEW WORDS
AND SOUND EFFECTS AS POSSIBLE

SO THAT THE HEARING AUDIENCE CAN
KIND OF REALLY FOCUS ON PETER,

MAYBE PICK UP--START TO SEE
THE SIGNS,

NOT NECESSARILY LEARN THEM SO
THEY CAN PRODUCE THEM THEMSELVES

BUT START TO LEARN IT AS THEY GO

SO THAT KENNY CAN VOICE
LESS AND LESS.

DO YOU FEEL THAT HIS WORDS ARE--

DO YOU WISH
THERE WERE MORE?

DO YOU WISH THERE WERE LESS?

IS THERE, LIKE, A LITTLE VOICE
IN YOUR EAR

THAT KIND OF GIVES YOU
A LITTLE BIT

AND HELPS YOU ALONG?

WHAT'S THAT EXPERIENCE LIKE
FOR YOU?

HOLMAN: YOU KNOW, KENNY
AND PETER ARE WORKING IN A ZONE

ALL TO THEMSELVES.

NO ONE ELSE THAT I SEE HAS BEEN
WILLING TO LIVE WITH EACH OTHER

FOR 20 YEARS AND FIGURE OUT
WHAT THE HECK A POEM IS

WHEN IT'S CROSSING OVER BETWEEN
ASL AND ENGLISH.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS NO GREATER
EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCE

FOR A HEARING PERSON TO LEARN
WHAT SIGN IS

THAN BY WATCHING FLYING WORDS.

THESE ARE BOTH CONSUMMATE
ARTISTS, WHO THROUGH THEIR PLAY

ARE INVENTIVELY FINDING OUT

THE CORE OF WHAT THIS LANGUAGE
THING IS ALL ABOUT.

AND BECAUSE OF
THEIR PLAYFULNESS,

BOTH IN CREATIVITY

AND ALSO IN THEIR INTERACTION
WITH THE AUDIENCE,

THEY KEEP EVERYBODY'S INTEREST
RIGHT THERE.

MAKES IT DIFFICULT MAYBE FOR
AN ACADEMIC STUDY

OR EVEN A DOCUMENTARY ABOUT,

BUT IT CERTAINLY IS, TO ME,
THE WAY TO PUSH THE INFORMATION

OUT TO THE LARGEST POSSIBLE
AUDIENCE.

AND I THINK THAT WHAT YOU SEE
IN THE PUBLICATION

OF THIS RECENT BOOK--

DIRKSEN AND HEIDI'S BOOK.
WHAT'S IT CALLED?

MIRIAM: "THE BODY POETIC"--
HOLMAN: "THE BODY POETIC."

I THINK YOU SEE IN
"THE BODY POETIC"

THE WAY THAT THE ASL ACADEMY IS
MUCH MORE OPEN

TO ALL FORMS OF THE POETICS IN
THAT COMMUNITY

THAN THE HEARING COMMUNITY IS.

YOU KNOW, THAT DIRKSEN IS THERE
HANDING OUT ACCOLADES

TO KENNY AND PETER'S SHOW...

AND THAT'S PART OF ASL.

THERE'S NO DISTINCTION BEING
MADE BETWEEN HIGH AND LOW,

YOU KNOW.

IS IT BECAUSE THERE AREN'T
ENOUGH PEOPLE TO HAVE THAT?

OR IS IT BECAUSE THERE
IS INHERENT IN USING

A WHOLE BODY OF LANGUAGE
AND GIVING YOURSELF AWAY

SO TOTALLY, IS IT A GIVEN THAT
WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER?

JUST SO MUCH TO EAT UP,
YOU KNOW, IN THIS.

MIRIAM: YEAH.
THAT'S A GOOD POINT.

HOLMAN: I WANT TO GET BACK,
THOUGH, TO KENNY.

YOU KNOW, KENNY'S WORK HAS
EVOLVED EXTRAORDINARILY

OVER THE YEARS.

AND HE DOES DO A LOT MORE.

HE IS MORE WILLING NOW TO BE
ON THE SIDE

AND TO DROP THE CUES,
AS IT'S SAID,

INTO THE EARS OF
THE HEARING AUDIENCE.

YOU KNOW, I THINK OF IT IN TERMS
OF THE WAY THAT EDWIN DENBY

USED TO WRITE HIS CRITICISM.

TO MY MIND,
THE GREATEST DANCE CRITIC

THAT WE'VE EVER SEEN,
AND A POET.

DENBY WOULD NEVER HAVE
A JUDGMENTAL PHRASE

IN ANY OF HIS CRITICISM.

HE WOULD SIMPLY ALLOW YOU TO SEE
THE PLACEMENT

OF THE DANCERS' FEET AND BODY
IN SUCH A WAY

THAT IF IT WERE AWKWARD
AND NOT WORKING,

HE'D SAY, "WELL, THAT'S TOO BAD.

IT COULD'VE BEEN
SOMETHING ELSE."

OR IF IT WAS, YOU KNOW,
SHEER-ELEGANCE BEAUTY,

THEN YOU WOULD SAY, "AHH,"

AFTER SEEING IT THROUGH
THESE WORDS.

AND SO KENNY DOES NOT TELL YOU
WHAT TO SEE.

HE'S THERE IN IT, PUTTING A WORD
IN THE PLACE OF--

IT COULD BE THE SIGN
OR IT COULD BE THE MOVEMENT,

OR IT COULD BE THE WHOLE
GESTALT THAT PETER IS

AT THAT POINT.

LIKEWISE, HIS ABILITY TO TAKE
THE REALLY--THE NOISES

THAT PETER DOES MAKE,
THE DEAF NOISES THAT HE MAKES--

AND LET THEM EVOLVE INTO
SOUND EFFECTS

THROUGH HIS WORK IS ANOTHER WAY
OF GIVING US

A WAY INTO THE DEAF EXPERIENCE.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THE INTRO
THAT FLYING WORDS DOES AT TIMES,

WHERE THEY GIVE YOU A BRIEF
EXAMPLE OF WHAT RHYMES ARE

IN ASL POETRY,

WHAT CINEMATIC TECHNIQUES ARE
BEING USED

IN ASL POETRY THAT ARE THE SAME
AS, SAY, METAPHOR OR SYNECDOCHE

IN HEARING POETRY IS
A WONDERFUL WAY--

MAYBE THAT'S JUST BECAUSE I HAVE
IN MY OLD AGE BECOME

AN ACADEMIC, BUT I LIKE IT WHEN
THAT DOES HAPPEN.

I THINK THERE ARE LITTLE TIDBITS
OF INTRO,

YOU KNOW, TO HELP BRING PEOPLE
A LONG WAYS.

AND THAT'S ALSO PART OF KENNY'S
GENIUS IN DOING THIS.

SO, YOU KNOW, WHILE NOW IT'S
MORE THAN EVER PETER OUT FRONT,

ALTHOUGH WHEN THERE IS A DUET,

IT IS NEVER ANYTHING LESS THAN
BRAVURA ANYMORE.

AND YOU'RE NEVER SEEING ANYTHING
BUT THE 4-HANDED BEAST,

YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY'RE HARD AT
WORK IN THE DUETS.

I THINK IT IS A MUCH--YOU KNOW,
THAT THE PERFORMANCE

REALLY HAS CONTINUED TO EVOLVE

AND, YOU KNOW,
IT CONTINUES TO BE,

AS ALWAYS, AT THE HIGHEST POINT
IT'S EVER BEEN

AND JUST PUSHES ITSELF
THROUGH PLAY.

AND NOW THROUGH THE WHOLE
ENERGY OF THE TRAINS

HAVING GONE SO FAR.

YOU KNOW,
THE CHUG-CHUG, PUFF-PUFF

OF "ON WE GO,"

THAT IT'S TAKEN ON THIS
EXTRAORDINARY LIFE.

MIRIAM: HAVE YOU SEEN
OTHER DEAF POETS

OTHER THAN KENNY AND PETER?
HAVE YOU HAD ANY EXPOSURES?

HOLMAN: YOU KNOW, I WAS AT
THE BIG CONFERENCE

DOWN AT GALLAUDET,

AND I WAS AT THE CONFERENCE IN
ROCHESTER IN THE LATE EIGHTIES.

OR WAS IT THE EARLY NINETIES?

MIRIAM: YOU CAME TO THE DEAF LIT
CONFERENCE IN '91.

HOLMAN: '91.

MIRIAM: YOU WERE AT THAT ONE.

HOLMAN: YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHERE
I REALLY SPENT, I GUESS, 3 DAYS

IN THE MIDST OF THE DEAF WORLD
WITHOUT REALLY KNOWING--

I KNEW KENNY AND PETER BUT NOT
AS WELL AS I DO NOW,

AND REALLY GOT TO EXPERIENCE,
I THINK, THE REAL DEAL

BEFORE THERE WAS A REAL DEAL.

MIRIAM: DO YOU REMEMBER--I KNOW
THAT YOU WERE ALSO AT

THE GELL HOUSE.

THERE WAS A BRIDGE FESTIVAL
IN THE SUMMER.

HOLMAN: THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME
I MET KENNY AND PETER.

MIRIAM: THAT'S WHEN YOU FIRST
MET THEM.

AND THERE WERE OTHER DEAF POETS
THERE, TOO.

AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU SAW THEM
OR NOT.

I JUST WONDER IF YOU HAVE
A BASIS OF COMPARISON

OR YOU REMEMBER ENOUGH ABOUT
ANYBODY ELSE YOU SAW TO BE...

HOLMAN: WELL, I'LL TELL YOU
THIS: UM...

OH, I CAN'T REMEMBER
THE NAMES NOW.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE THING.

BUT I DO--THERE WAS A GUY WHOSE
NAME BEGINS WITH "B"

AND WHO
WAS THE GREAT PROGENITOR.

MIRIAM: BERNARD BRAGG?
HOLMAN: NO. ANOTHER...

MIRIAM: ROBERT PANARA?
PATRICK GRAYBILL?

AN OLDER GENTLEMAN?

HOLMAN: MAYBE IT
WAS PATRICK GRAYBILL.

YEAH, OLDER.

MIRIAM: BALD HEAD?
DON'T REMEMBER?

HOLMAN: YES.
MIRIAM: YEAH.

HOLMAN: YEAH. THAT WAS GRAYBILL?
MIRIAM: PROBABLY.

HOLMAN: YEAH. SO AND THEN,

OF COURSE, I REMEMBER PEOPLE
AT THE ONE IN GALLAUDET,

THE GREAT BIG GUY WHO DID

THE WALK THROUGH
THE GRAVEYARD PIECE.

YOU KNOW, DO YOU REMEMBER
HIS NAME?

MIRIAM: I'M NOT SURE...

HOLMAN: I THINK IF YOU THREW
NAMES AND GAVE ME HINTS,

I COULD GIVE YOU SOME CAPSULE
DESCRIPTIONS.

THERE WAS THE WOMAN WHO'S WORKED
A LOT WITH FILM,

WHOSE WORK I'VE SEEN
QUITE A BIT OF.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IN MY WORLD--
YOU KNOW, ASL POETRY IS

YOU KNOW, ONE OF MANY, MANY
KINDS OF ORALITY

THAT I'M WORKING WITH THAT
I'M NOT SO FAMILIAR

BECAUSE THAT WORLD IS MORE
ENCLOSED THAN THE OTHERS.

AND I'M HOPING THAT THIS BOOK
WILL OPEN THINGS UP,

BUT THERE'S NOBODY
WHO OPENS IT UP

OR WHO HAS TAKEN ON, YOU KNOW,
THAT RISK OF...

IT'S RISKY WHAT PETER AND KENNY
ARE DOING--

TO BRING IT THIS FAR
TO THE HEARING AUDIENCE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, WHEN I--
LAST NIGHT'S CROWD WAS

PRIMARILY DEAF.

AND THEY WERE HAVING THE TIME
OF THEIR LIFE.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO WERE HEARING
WEREN'T FAR BEHIND IN HAVING

THE TIME OF THEIR LIFE.

SO THE RISK REALLY IS
WORTH IT.

YOU KNOW, WHAT WANTS
TO HAPPEN NOW IS

THAT THESE POEMS CAN OPEN UP
IN OTHER DIRECTIONS

AND WITH OTHER POETS.

MIRIAM: YEAH, THERE WERE SOME
COLLEGE SLAM KIDS THAT WENT

RIGHT BEFORE THEM.

I WAS THERE AT 6:00 TO WATCH
THE SLAM. IT WAS INCREDIBLE.

AND THERE WERE 3 GUYS THAT JUST
BLEW ME RIGHT OUT OF MY FEET,

AND I ASKED THEM TO STAY.

AND I SAID, "IF YOU DIDN'T
HAVE TO PAY TO GET IN,

"WOULD YOU STAY?

"AND I'LL INTERVIEW YOU
AFTERWARDS.

"AND YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO
LIKE IT.

"I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT
YOU THINK.

"AND BECAUSE YOU GUYS WORK SO
MUCH WITH IMAGERY AND METAPHOR

"AND INCREDIBLE STUFF
WITH WORDS,

"IF YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THIS KIND
OF THING,

I'D REALLY LIKE YOUR TAKE
ON IT."

AND THEY REALLY LOVED IT, TOO.

AND IT WAS GREAT TO GET THEIR
COMMENTS AFTERWARDS.

HOLMAN: WELL, MIRIAM, THAT'S WHY
YOU'RE PRODUCE--

THAT'S WHY YOU GET TO BE
THE PRODUCER.

THAT IS A BRILLIANT IDEA.

AND, OF COURSE, THE IDEA THAT,
YOU KNOW, THE HIP HOP SLAM

BEFORE THE ASL FLYING WORDS
EVENT COULD BE

MORE THAN JUST, YOU KNOW,
TOUCHING ELBOWS

AS YOU COME AND GO, BUT COULD
STICK AROUND AND SEE,

THAT'S WHY THE BOWERY POETRY
CLUB IS THERE.

AND IT WAS LAST NIGHT THAT I
REALIZED

THAT IN MY NEXT PROJECT, WHICH
IS TO WORK WITH A DOCUMENTARY

UNVEILING THE POETRIES OF
ENDANGERED LANGUAGES

AS A SENSE OF POLITICAL URGENCY,
TO SEE LANGUAGES, WHICH, TO ME,

ARE SIMPLY FORMS
OF CONSCIOUSNESS,

AS MUCH PART OF THE ECOLOGY AS
ENDANGERED PLANTS AND ANIMALS,

BEGINS TO GET AT WHAT THIS
LANGUAGE OF ASL IS ALL ABOUT.

AND, OF COURSE, IT IS
AN ENDANGERED LANGUAGE AS WELL.

I'M WONDERING IF
THE COCHLEAR IMPLANTS ARE GOING

TO HAVE AN IMPACT IN THE ACTUAL
POPULATION OF THOSE USING SIGN.

AND IT'D BE INTERESTING TO TRY
TO KEEP TRACK OF THE NUMBERS.

RIGHT NOW, IT'S WONDERFUL
JUST TO KEEP TRACK OF THE ART

AS MUCH AS YOU CAN.

DID A FEW VIDEOS,

WHICH IS AS CLOSE AS YOU CAN
COME TO A BOOK WITH ASL,

WITH KENNY AND PETER.

WE DID THEM FOR
WNYC's POETRY SPOTS.

WE DID THE ONE ABOUT THE DOGGIE.
WHAT'S HIS NAME?

MIRIAM: CHARLIE.
HOLMAN: CHARLIE...

THE VIETNAM BOMB-SNIFFING
TUNNEL DOG.

AMAZING PIECE.

AND THEN WE DID FOR OUR VERY
FIRST FORAY INTO PBS,

US BEING JOSH BLOOM, MY PARTNER
ON THESE TV SHOWS, AND ME--

AND MARK PELLINGTON,
THE DIRECTOR--

HAD PETER DOING: "YOU HAVE
ORDERED ME TO SPEAK,"

WHICH HE DID SOLO IN THAT SHOW,

AND THEN, OF COURSE, PETER
WAS THE LAST WORD

IN "THE UNITED STATES
OF POETRY,"

THE BIG AWARD-WINNING
PBS SERIES.

THAT WAS SUCH A BATTLE THERE.

I MEAN, PETER WROTE A 15-MINUTE
POEM TO BE INCLUDED IN "USoP."

AND IT WAS--THE ENTIRE
UNITED STATES AS TOLD IN ASL

THROUGH EVERY POET
AND ICONIC CARICATURE.

PECOS BILL AND HIS
OLD GIRLFRIENDS ARE INTERACTING.

IT WAS JUST A WONDERFUL,
WONDERFUL PIECE.

AND HE DID IT ALL IN ONE TAKE,
WHICH STILL EXISTS ON TAPE

AS "THE HERO TAKE,"
IT WAS CALLED.

AND WE ENDED UP BEING ABLE
TO USE 20 SECONDS,

THE VERY END, THE VERY LAST WORD
IS GIVEN OVER TO ASL.

AND IT WAS ONLY THROUGH--I MEAN,
THIS WAS A CUTTHROAT BATTLE

AMONGST US...

BUT I WAS NOT GONNA DO THIS SHOW
IF WE WEREN'T GOING TO GET

ASL INTO IT.

LIKEWISE, WHEN I WAS A JUDGE

OVER IN THE ZEBRA POETRY
FESTIVAL IN BERLIN,

WHICH IS THE BIGGEST
POETRY VIDEO FESTIVAL

IN THE WORLD,

AND THERE ARE 5 JUDGES.

AND ONE OF THE PIECES WAS
A REALLY SIMPLE HEADS--

IT'S JUST STRAIGHTFORWARD,
ONE CAMERA, ONE TAKE SHOT OF

A DEAF POET IN
GERMAN SIGN LANGUAGE

DOING A POEM AND GETTING
SO FRU--

THE DIRECTOR CALLS OUT SOMETHING
TO HER THAT, CLEARLY, HAS

NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT'S
GOING ON,

AND SHE CAN'T REALLY TELL WHAT
HE'S SAYING ANYWAY,

AND SHE JUST RUSHES PAST
THE CAMERA,

AND THAT'S THE END OF IT,

UP AGAINST SOME REALLY
HIGHLY PRODUCED NUMBERS

AND SOME HISTORICAL PIECES THAT
WERE FANTASTIC.

BUT, AGAIN, THERE WAS A FEELING
I HAD THAT THERE IS--

IF YOU DON'T GIVE VOICE TO
DEAF POETRY WHEN YOU'RE WORKING

ON FILMS, IF YOU
DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS IS

THE MEDIUM THAT YOU'VE GOT
IF YOU'RE DEAF,

THEN, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE MISSING
PART OF WHAT FILM AND POETRY IS.

AND IT TURNED OUT THAT I HAD
AN ALLY, WHICH RARELY HAPPENS

ON THESE JUDGING THINGS.

AND HE, LIKE ME, AGREED THAT
THERE WAS

SUCH A POLITICAL EXIGENCY IN
LETTING THIS PIECE BE

ONE OF THE WINNERS THAT WE BOTH,
UNBEKNOWNST TO EACH OTHER,

GAVE IT OUR NUMBER-ONE VOTES.

AND IF IT GOT 2 OUT OF 5 VOTES,

IT WAS AUTOMATICALLY GONNA BE
ONE OF THE 3 WINNERS.

SO THIS PIECE--THE OTHER
2 PIECES WERE

EXTREMELY SLICKLY PRODUCED
AND WONDERFUL,

EVOCATIVE...MUSIC,
THE-WHOLE-9-YARDS PIECES,

AND HERE'S THIS RAW LITTLE
ONE-TAKE DOCUMENTARY

OF AN ASL POET.

NOW, IT'S STEP BY STEP TO BRING
AWARENESS OF WHAT IT MEANS

TO HAVE--YOU KNOW, IN A WORLD
WHERE YOU'RE TRYING TO GET

PEOPLE TO LISTEN, WHAT IT MEANS
THAT YOU CAN'T HEAR.

AND IF YOU START FROM THAT
POINT, HOW POETRY,

IT DOESN'T CUT THE POETRY OUT.

IN FACT, IT MAKES IT ALL
THE MORE NECESSARY.

MIRIAM: WHAT ABOUT
THE TRANSLATION PROCESS?

LIKE, WHEN YOU CAME TO
ROCHESTER, I KNOW I INTERPRETED

FOR YOU AT LEAST ONCE
AND MAYBE TWICE.

ONE TIME WHEN I WAS OUT HERE
WITH JAMIE, I REMEMBER.

AND I DON'T REMEMBER HOW MUCH
TIME WE HAD TO WORK BEFORE

WITH MY TRANSLATIONS OF
WHAT I WAS GONNA SIGN FOR YOU,

BUT EITHER WITH ME OR WITH OTHER
PEOPLE THAT YOU'VE WORKED WITH,

WHAT'S IT LIKE FOR YOU TO WORK
WITH INTERPRETERS

WHEN YOU'VE HAD THAT EXPERIENCE?

HOLMAN: WELL, FIRST, MIRIAM,
I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT

YOUR TRANSLATIONS GET BETTER
THE LATER THE NIGHT IS

AND THE MORE ALCOHOL
IS CONSUMED.

MIRIAM: WHAT ELSE IS NEW? HA HA!

HOLMAN: AND, YOU KNOW, IT JUST
BECOMES SO ORGANIC,

THE TRANSLATIONS.

AND LAST NIGHT'S PARTY--AND THAT
WAS THE FIRST TIME PAT RUSSELL

HAD EVER, YOU KNOW, SAT IT
ON A DEAF CONVERSATION,

BUT YOUR ABILITY TO KEEP
THE TWO OF US AFLOAT

IN THIS WORLD OF SIGN WAS JUST,
YOU KNOW...

IT WAS TOTALLY TERRIFIC,

AND YET PAT WAS SO WORN-OUT
AT THE END OF AN HOUR.

YOU KNOW, HOW...

THE ENERGY THAT YOU HAVE WHEN
YOU'RE DEAF,

THE ENERGY YOU HAVE TO GIVE

YOURSELF AWAY TO COMMUNICATE IS,

YOU KNOW, THE BEST EXERCISE ON
THE PLANET, FULL-BODY EXERCISE,

BEYOND PILATES.

I'VE WORKED
WITH DEAF TRANSLATORS

THE SAME WAY I'VE WORKED WITH
ALL TRANSLATORS IN PERFORMANCE,

WHICH IS THAT THE MORE YOU CAN
HAVE INTERACTION

WITH THE TRANSLATOR,
THEN THE MORE YOU CAN BREAK DOWN

THE ARTIFICIALITY OF
THE FORMAL POEM

AND ALLOW THE EVENT ITSELF
TO TAKE OVER.

SO...THE VERY FIRST TIME THAT
I HAD A SIGNING TRANSLATOR WAS

AT THE BRIDGE FESTIVAL.

IT WAS THAT GUY NAMED BOB.

AND I BROUGHT HIM
A QUESTION MARK JACKET TO WEAR

AS I WAS AT THAT POINT PANIC DJ.

I WORE A QUESTION MARK JACKET,
WHICH IS WHY, I THINK,

THAT THE WRITERS & BOOKS MAN...

MIRIAM: JOE FLAHERTY.
HOLMAN: OK.

I WAS WEARING
A QUESTION MARK JACKET.

AND I BROUGHT AN EXTRA ONE
FOR THE SIGNING TRANSLATOR,

AND HIS NAME WAS BOB, TOO.

JOE FLAHERTY GAVE ME THE GIG
BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT I

WOULDN'T JUST STAND THERE
ON THE STAGE,

AND I DIDN'T.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, I TAUGHT
A FEW MOVES TO BOB.

SO WE WERE ACTUALLY DOING
A LITTLE BIT OF DANCE

AS I WAS GIVING MY POEM
THROUGH THE MIKE

AND HE WAS GIVING IT THROUGH
HIS BODY AND SIGNS.

SO IT'S A WONDERFUL TREAT.

FOR PEOPLE--FOR A HEARING
AUDIENCE SEEING SIGN

FOR THE FIRST TIME, IT'S ALWAYS
SO DEVASTATINGLY OTHER--

OR/AND EXOTIC--TO HAVE THESE
SIGNS AND THIS KIND OF EMOTION

COMING AT YOU.

IT'S MORE DRAMATIC THAN
SHAKESPEARE.

IF SHAKESPEARE'S BEHIND THEM,
THIS IS MORE DRAMATIC,

THE PERSON IN THE OVAL...

[NO AUDIO]

WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO
REALLY BE WORKED WITH,

THOUGHT THROUGH, AND FOUGHT
THROUGH AS WELL, YOU KNOW.

AND ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS
THAT PETER AND KENNY

HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO
AND MAKE FUN OF,

WHICH IS ALWAYS, YOU KNOW,
EASES YOU UP,

BECAUSE THERE AIN'T
NO ANSWERS TO IT.

JUST, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING IS
LOST IN TRANSLATION.

ONE OF THE FUNNIEST THINGS:
"I WONDER WHAT THAT IS."

BUT SOMETHING IS ALSO GAINED,
RIGHT?

MIRIAM: RIGHT. I REMEMBER
WORKING WITH YOU

THAT ONE OF THE THINGS I WOULD
WORRY ABOUT

WHEN I WAS INTERPRETING FOR
A POET IS THAT THEIR WORDS

MIGHT BE BEAUTIFUL
AND IT'S GREAT STUFF

AND I CAN COME UP WITH SOME
REALLY GREAT TRANSLATIONS,

BUT I NEVER WANT TO BE
THE CENTER OF IT,

BECAUSE THE POINT IS, EVEN
IF THE DEAF PEOPLE HAVE

TO LOOK AT ME TO GET
THE INFORMATION, I'M HOPING

THAT THE HEARING POET IS
INTERESTING ENOUGH

AND MOVES ENOUGH OR HAS ENOUGH
CHARISMA THAT THE DEAF PEOPLE,

AND ALSO THE HEARING PEOPLE WHO
LIKE TO WATCH SIGN,

AREN'T ALL FOCUSED ON ME.

ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT
WORKING WITH YOU IS YOU'RE

VERY INTERESTING TO WATCH,
SO I KNEW THAT

I WOULDN'T BE STEALING--

YOU'RE CERTAINLY NOT SOMEBODY
I'D HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT

MY STEALING YOUR STAGE TIME

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WHICH IS
ALWAYS A WORRY,

BECAUSE PEOPLE DO SAY, "OH,
IT'S SO MUCH MORE FUN TO WATCH

"THE INTERPRETER.

I LIKE THE POETRY, BUT IT BRINGS
IT ALIVE WITH THE INTERPRETER."

THERE WAS NO COMPETITION BECAUSE
YOU'RE VERY DYNAMIC!

HOLMAN: I DISAGREE WITH YOU,
YOU KNOW,

AND I WOULD LIKE TO
ALLOW SIGNERS TO DO

WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO,
WHICH IS WHAT I DO

WHEN I TRANSLATE FROM THE URDU
OR THE CHINESE.

YOU KNOW, I DO KNOW SOME
CHINESE. I DON'T KNOW ANY URDU,

AND YET I'VE TRANSLATED A LOT
FROM THOSE LANGUAGES.

AND WHEN I DO, I TAKE IT THE
ONLY WAY I KNOW HOW TO TAKE IT,

WHICH IS THROUGH ME.

NOW, MAYBE IF I WERE
A TRANSLATOR FIRST

AND A POET SECOND, I'D THINK
DIFFERENTLY.

BUT I DON'T KNOW. HARD FOR ME
TO THINK DIFFERENTLY.

I'M ALREADY
THINKING DIFFERENTLY.

BUT I WISH THAT THE SIGNERS
WOULD GO FULL-TILT BOOGIE

ALL THE TIME.

WHY NOT BE THE CENTER--WHO
CARES, YOU KNOW?

MAYBE THE POET SAYS,
"OH, THEY'RE ALL WATCH..."

THANK GOODNESS THEY'RE WATCHING
SOMEBODY THAT'S MOVING

AND INTERESTING, YOU KNOW.

I DON'T CARE WHAT THAT IS.

OR, "WOW! MAYBE I SHOULD DO
SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT MORE HERE

TO GET ATTENTION FOCUSED ON ME
A LITTLE BIT," YOU KNOW.

TO ME, IT'S A FALSE ISSUE,
YOU KNOW,

THAT ASL CARRIES IN IT THE SEEDS
OF ALL OF THIS,

THE ENERGY OF PERFORMANCE
OF THE SPOKEN WORD.

SO WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?
HIDE THAT?

BECAUSE YOU HAPPEN
TO HAVE A POET

WHO DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING
ABOUT IT?

WELL, WHY DON'T YOU LET THEM
LEARN ABOUT IT,

AND WHY DON'T YOU GIVE YOUR
AUDIENCE THE BEST EXPERIENCE--

THE DEAF AUDIENCE THE BEST
EXPERIENCE THEY CAN?

IT'S NOT ACADEMICALLY CORRECT,
I'M SURE.

YOU WANT TO DO THAT, LET
THE ARTIST BE IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

BUT, TO ME, THE ARTIST
ISN'T WHAT'S IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

IT'S THE POEM THAT'S
IN THE SPOTLIGHT, RIGHT?

AND A POEM ISN'T WRITTEN
UNTIL SOMEBODY HEARS IT.

IF YOU'RE DEAF--HA HA--YOU'RE
NOT GONNA HEAR IT ANYWAY.

SO A POEM ISN'T WRITTEN--

AND...AN ASL POEM
ISN'T EVER WRITTEN, OK?

SO THERE IS NO POEM

UNLESS THERE'S SOMEBODY ELSE
THERE TO SEE IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, SO...
IT'S ALL UP TO YOU,

THE TRANSLATOR.

MIRIAM: I DON'T THINK ANYBODY
HOLDS BACK,

BUT IT'S ALWAYS A WORRY

THAT WE'RE THE ONES THEY'RE
WATCHING...

HOLMAN: PLEASE, TRANSLATORS,
SIGNERS,

GO WORRY
ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE NOW.

YOU WORRY TOO MUCH ABOUT THAT.
HA HA!

MIRIAM: YOU'RE HITTING
EVERYTHING, WHICH IS GREAT.

I'M WONDERING ABOUT,
IT'S A NEBULOUS TERM.

I'M NOT SURE EVEN I
TOTALLY UNDERSTAND IT,

THE IDEA OF BEAT POETRY,
BEAT INFLUENCE.

WHAT IS THE BEAT-TYPE STUFF?

AND THAT TERM HAS BEEN LIBERALLY
AND ENTHUSIASTICALLY EMBRACED

BY PETER AND DEBBIE RENNIE,
WHO IS A DEAF POET ALSO,

A COUPLE OTHER PEOPLE AS,

"WELL, WE'RE SORT OF LIKE--
IT SEEMS LIKE

THE BEATS HAD A BIG INFLUENCE
ON US,"

AND ALLEN GINSBERG,

OF COURSE, OH, BUKOWSKI
BECAUSE, SO MUCH IMAGERY.

AND IF YOU COULD RIFF ON THAT
A LITTLE BIT--BEAT POETRY

AND YOUR OWN STUFF, BEAT STUFF,
WHAT YOU SEE IN ASL.

HOLMAN: YUP. YOU KNOW, WHAT
GINSBERG AND THE BEATS DID

IN THE U.S. WAS TO FREE POETRY
FROM A CLASSICAL MODE,

PUSH IT OFF INTO THE WORLDS OF
BOHEME, THE BOHEMIANS.

WHAT THE BEAT POETS DID WAS
TO FREE THE WORD

FROM THE CONFINES
OF THE ACADEMIC TRADITIONS

AND OPEN IT UP

BOTH TO THE WORLDS OF BOHEMIA

AND TO THE EVENT OF
THE POETRY READING, YOU KNOW?

THINK OF IT.

I MEAN, GINSBERG'S GREAT POEM
IS "HOWL."

THERE YOU HAVE IT.
YOU CAN HEAR IT.

YOU KNOW, WHAT I SEE
THE DEAF POETS DOING,

WHAT PETER TAKES FROM IT IS
THAT SPIRIT OF LOVING REBELLION,

YOU KNOW.

AND JUST AS IT WAS GINSBERG
FIGHTING FOR GAY RIGHTS,

FIGHTING AGAINST THE WAR
IN VIETNAM,

SO DO THE ASL POETS
IN THEIR VERY LIFE

FIGHT FOR THE EXISTENCE OF
THE DEAF COMMUNITY,

OF A MINORITY WHOSE VOICE
ISN'T BEING HEARD.

THE PLAYFULNESS AND BEAT--
THE PLAYFULNESS OF PETER

THE PICKING UP OF THE 5-DAY OLD
BEARD AND A BERET--

ACCOUTREMENTS--

IS ALSO JUST A WAY OF RELAXING
INTO A POEM.

I DON'T THINK THAT THE IMAGERY
THAT THE DEAF POETS USE IS

REALLY WHAT THE BEATS DID.

I SEE IT MORE SIMILAR TO
THE OBSERVATION

OF WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS,
OF COURSE, WHO WAS

A GREAT TEACHER TO GINSBERG.

BUT, YOU KNOW, HE HAD
VERY SHORT LINES THAT WERE

VERY DESCRIPTIVE AND ACUTE.

AND THAT'S WHAT, IT SEEMS TO ME,
THAT MOST--THAT IS,

THAT'S COMMON AMONG ASL POETS,

IS THAT BY HAVING THE IMAGE BE
TRANSMUTED INTO A SIGN,

THAT THEY'RE FOCUSING ON
THESE CERTAIN OBJECTS,

WHICH, THEN, TAKE ON A RHYME
AND "LITERARY" LIFE

OF THEIR OWN,

ALL OF THIS BEING MUCH DIFFERENT
FROM THE LONG-LINED WILDNESS

OF GINSBERG AND CORSO.

MIRIAM: GOT IT.

I'M CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR TIME.
IT'S 5 TO 2:00.

AND YOU'VE HIT ON JUST ABOUT
EVERYTHING I WANT TO ASK,

UNLESS THERE'S ANYTHING ELSE
YOU FEEL LIKE YOU WANT TO--

HOLMAN: I WANT TO READ THE POEM.
MIRIAM: OH, YEAH! LET'S SEE.

MAN: ACTION.

HOLMAN: OK, THIS IS
"IF I WERE TO THROW MY MONEY."

IF I WERE TO THROW
ALL MY MONEY INTO ANYTHING,

I'D THROW MY MONEY
INTO THE DEAF COMMUNITY,

IF I WERE TO THROW ALL
MY MONEY ANYWHERE,

I'D THROW IT INTO ASL

BECAUSE THE FUTURE
OF THE SPECIES IS IMMUNE

TO ALL THE PREACHING
AND THE SILENCE

OF THESE MOMENTS IS
BEST SPOKEN TO

BY THE QUIETUDE OF FAR BY FEW

OH, IN THE SILENCE

YOU HEAR THE HEART DRUM,

YOU HEAR THE EAR PULL
AIR TOWARDS HAIR

BUT IN THE GESTURE
OF THE MEASURE

OF THE PASTURE YOU ARE FOR SURE
ASL'LL LEAD YOU PAST THE PASTURE

TO THE GATE WHERE YOU WILL HEAR,

SO TAKE MY MONEY,

TAKE MY TONGUE,

TAKE MY BREATH AND SEE IT FLY,

LISTEN TO THE DEAF COMMUNITY,

LISTEN TO THE POETRY,

THE WHIRR O' MEANING

COMING UP FOR AIR,

WALK TOGETHER TO THE RIVERSIDE,

MAKING SMALL TALK SIGN BY SIGN,

THE BODY'S SPEAKING NOW, HUSH

LISTEN WITH ECSTATIC EYES.

MIRIAM: OH, THAT'S GREAT!
CAN I HAVE THAT?

HOLMAN: YOU CAN HAVE THAT.
MIRIAM: CAN YOU SIGN IT?

HOLMAN: I'LL SIGN IT,
BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SIGN.

[LAUGHTER]

MIRIAM: DID I WALK INTO THAT
OR WHAT?

DID I JUST SAY, "HERE, TAKE
ME, UNIVERSE, AND MOCK ME"?

[CHUCKLES]

THAT'S GREAT.

YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT
FOR THE INTRO LAST NIGHT.

AWESOME.

HOLMAN: IT WENT WELL LAST NIGHT.
I THOUGHT IT WAS A LOT OF FUN.

MIRIAM: BEAUTIFUL. THANK YOU.
HOLMAN: OK, GUYS.

YOU'RE WELCOME.
YOU'RE WELCOME...

[CONTINUOUS TONE
DROWNS OUT CONVERSATION]

MAN: ...IN THE BACKGROUND.
THAT'S OK?

[LAUGHTER]

MIRIAM: SHE'S PERKING.
PERCOLATING.

ZAWERUCHA: PERKING.
MIRIAM: ARE WE READY?

AH, OK. SO I NEED YOUR NAME
FIRST, PLEASE, AND WHAT YOU DO.

ZAWERUCHA: MY NAME IS STEFA.
LAST NAME IS ZAWERUCHA.

AND I'M A DANCER
AND A CHOREOGRAPHER.

MIRIAM: AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU
BEEN A DANCER?

ZAWERUCHA: I HAVE BEEN DANCING,
OH, GOODNESS, FOR OVER 30 YEARS.

WELL, YOU KNOW, I MIGHT HAVE
BEEN DANCING AS A LITTLE GIRL,

BUT I DIDN'T KNOW I WAS DANCING,
BUT I THINK I WAS.

[LAUGHS]

MIRIAM: HOW DID YOU GET INVOLVED
IN THE WHOLE DEAF THING

FROM THE BEGINNING,
IF YOU DON'T MIND?

ZAWERUCHA: WELL, THROUGH DANCE.
MIRIAM: OK.

ZAWERUCHA: I HAD JUST GRADUATED

AND GOT MY MASTER'S IN DANCE.

AND I WAS APPLYING FOR JOBS
ALL OVER THE COUNTRY

AND SENT THEM ALL OUT--

[WHOOSHING NOISE]

ALL OVER.

AND REJECTIONS WERE COMING BACK,
AND THINKING, "OHH, WELL,

I DON'T KNOW WHERE THIS IS ALL
GOING TO END UP."

AND THEN I GOT A PHONE CALL
FROM NTID,

THE NATIONAL TECHNICAL
INSTITUTE FOR THE DEAF.

AND THEY SAID THEY WANTED
TO INTERVIEW ME.

AND I WAS LIKE, "WHOA! OK.
IT'S HAPPENING."

AND SO THEY FLEW ME OUT,
AND I WAS INTERVIEWED.

AND I WAS INTERVIEWED BY
PATRICK GRAYBILL

AND MEMBERS OF THE THEATER
DEPARTMENT.

AND THAT WAS MY FIRST MOMENTS
INTO THE WORLD OF THE DEAF

AND THE BEGINNING OF FRIENDSHIPS
THAT LASTED A LIFETIME.

MIRIAM: DID YOU PICK UP SIGN
RIGHT AWAY? TAKE CLASSES?

ZAWERUCHA: NO, NO.

I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF
SIGN LANGUAGE AT ALL.

I HAD VERY LITTLE EXPERIENCE
IN DEAF CULTURE.

HOWEVER, WHEN I WENT
TO HIGH SCHOOL,

THERE WAS AN OLD VICTORIAN
BUILDING THAT WAS

RIGHT ACROSS THE HIGHWAY,

AND YOU COULD SEE IT FROM
OUR HIGH SCHOOL.

AND IT WAS ST. JOSEPH'S SCHOOL
FOR THE DEAF.

AND, PERIODICALLY, WE'D GO
OVER THERE AND DO THINGS.

SO IT WAS SOMETHING
THAT IS SORT OF A VAGUE MEMORY,

BUT IT CAME BACK TO ME THAT
I DID HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE

IN HIGH SCHOOL.

BUT, NO, WHEN I FELL INTO NTID,
I FELL INTO A NEW WORLD. YEAH.

MIRIAM: SO HOW DID YOU PICK UP
SIGN?

YOU WERE TEACHING DEAF STUDENTS,
AND YET YOU WERE STARTING OUT

WITHOUT HAVING ANY SIGN SKILLS
AT ALL?

ZAWERUCHA: EXACTLY.
MIRIAM: HOW'D THAT GO?

WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU?
ZAWERUCHA: THAT WAS SCARY.

HA HA! I MEAN,
YOU COULD IMAGINE.

I WAS PLACED INTO A SITUATION

WHERE IN 3 MONTHS, I WOULD BE--

ACTUALLY, IT WAS
SHORTER THAN THAT.

I ARRIVED IN JULY.

AND BY SEPTEMBER, I WOULD HAVE
DEAF STUDENTS IN FRONT OF ME.

BUT I HAD A WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL
DEAF TEACHER.

YOU ALL REMEMBER SAM?
SAM HOLCOMB, I BELIEVE.

YOU KNOW, HE WAS MY FIRST
DEAF TEACHER,

AND HE WAS WONDERFUL.

AND HE JUST MADE LEARNING REAL.

BUT MY TRUE TEACHERS WERE
PEOPLE LIKE PETER COOK

AND KENNY LERNER
AND DEBBIE RENNIE

AND PATRICK GRAYBILL.

I LEARNED FROM FRIENDS.

THEY TAUGHT ME SOMETHING THAT
YOU DON'T LEARN IN A BOOK

AND YOU DON'T LEARN
IN A CLASSROOM.

THEY TAUGHT ME THAT THE GOAL WAS
COMMUNICATING

AND REACHING OUT TO ANOTHER
HUMAN BEING

THAT WAS CREATIVE
AND EXPRESSIVE.

AND I ARRIVED AT SIGN LANGUAGE
WITH THAT.

THAT'S MY INITIATION INTO
SIGN LANGUAGE, IS

TO BE CREATIVE AND EXPRESSIVE
AND TO COMMUNICATE

AND TO DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN
TO GET YOUR POINT ACROSS,

BECAUSE IT'S ANOTHER PERSON.

AND YOU'RE REACHING OUT TO THEM.

THAT'S THE POINT,
AND I'M GRATEFUL FOR THAT.

MIRIAM: WHAT YEAR WAS THAT,
IF YOU CAN REMEMBER?

ZAWERUCHA: I DO REMEMBER! 1984.
1984.

MIRIAM: SO ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE

HAVE MENTIONED IS THAT--

THE IMPROV CLASSES THAT YOU
DID AT YOUR LOFT

AND OTHER THINGS, I GUESS,
THAT WERE MORE FORM...FORMAL--

EXCUSE ME--AT NTID REALLY HAD
A BIG IMPACT ON THEIR WORK.

SO THERE'S A FEW QUESTIONS I
WANT TO ASK RELATED TO THAT.

AND ONE IS YOU HAVE THESE
DEAF PEOPLE IN FRONT OF YOU,

AND YOU'RE TEACHING THEM DANCE,
AND YOU'RE LEARNING SIGN.

AND I IMAGINE THAT YOU
REALLY SAW,

THE MOVEMENT OF SIGN IS QUITE
A COMPELLING THING AS A DANCER,

BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY
MOVEMENTS THAT ARE DANCE-LIKE

AND WHATEVER.

SO IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND TALKING
A LITTLE BIT ABOUT, LIKE,

JUST WHAT THAT WHOLE THING--
YOU'RE LEARNING SIGN.

AT THE SAME TIME,
YOU'RE TEACHING THE DEAF

AND YOU'RE TEACHING THEM
MOVEMENT,

WHICH THEY ALREADY MOVE,
BUT THEY'RE LEARNING

A DIFFERENT WAY OF MOVEMENT.

JUST RIFF ON THAT WHOLE THING
IF YOU DON'T MIND.

ZAWERUCHA: I FELL IN LOVE WITH
SIGN LANGUAGE.

I JUST FELL IN LOVE WITH IT.

[CHUCKLES]

I REMEMBER THINKING TO MYSELF

THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME
IN MY LIFE,

I REALIZED JUST
HOW COMMUNICATIVE

MOVEMENT CAN BE.

WHEN I EXPERIENCED
SIGN LANGUAGE,

I DIDN'T KNOW ASL
FROM SIGN EXACT LANGUAGE

OR SIGN ENGLISH OR, YOU KNOW,

ANY OF THE VARIETIES
OF LANGUAGES.

I SAW MOVEMENT, AND I WAS MORE
THAN COMPELLED.

I WAS IN LOVE WITH IT.

AND ANYONE WHO WOULD COME UP
TO ME AND USE SIGN LANGUAGE,

THEY WERE GIVING ME A GIFT.

AND I WAS TOTALLY--YOU KNOW,
I EMBRACED IT WHOLEHEARTEDLY,

TO THIS DAY.

I LOVE SIGN LANGUAGE.

I TELL PEOPLE IT'S ONE
OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL LANGUAGES

IN THE WORLD.

MIRIAM: DID YOU FIND THAT YOU
CHOREOGRAPHED DIFFERENTLY

FOR DEAF STUDENTS YOU
WERE WORKING WITH

THAN...HEARING PEOPLE THAT
YOU'D WORKED WITH BEFORE?

WAS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT JUST
THE NATURE OF SIGNING

OR THAT THEY WERE DEAF THAT MADE
YOU INCORPORATE DIFFERENT SORTS

OF MOVEMENTS INTO YOUR WORK?

ZAWERUCHA: I DON'T THINK I
ACTUALLY CHANGED

HOW I WORK WITH THEM.

I THINK WHAT HAPPENED,
IT WAS LIKE YOU ADDED

TO THE RECIPE
A VERY PARTICULAR SPICE,

VERY PARTICULAR HERBS, THAT
WHAT THE LANGUAGE WAS BRINGING

TO MY WORK WAS MORE OF--

IT GAVE IT RICHER.
IT MADE IT RICHER.

IT GAVE IT
AN ESSENCE AND FLAVORS

I HAD NEVER TRIED BEFORE.

SO IN THAT SENSE, SIGN LANGUAGE
DID INFLUENCE ME.

BUT AS FAR AS WORKING

WITH INDIVIDUALS WHO
WERE DEAF OR HARD OF HEARING,

I JUST CAME FROM
MY OWN AUTHENTIC SOURCE,

AND I JUST HOPED THAT

WHEN I WAS WORKING WITH THEM,

I WAS ABLE TO COMMUNICATE WHAT
I THOUGHT I COULD GET FROM THEM,

WHAT I COULD REACH IN
AND PULL OUT.

AND IF SIGN LANGUAGE WOULD
HELP ME GET THAT,

THEN I WAS HUNGRY TO LEARN
THE LANGUAGE

IN ORDER TO GET TO THAT.

SO IT'S NOT SO MUCH THAT, "OH,
I'VE GOT TO LEARN SIGN LANGUAGE.

AND I BETTER LEARN IT QUICKLY!"

IT WAS MORE LIKE, "WHOA. HOW DO
I GET THAT INDIVIDUAL PERSON

"TO COME TO THIS PLACE THAT
I KNOW ABOUT

"AND THAT I REALLY WANT THEM
TO GET THERE--

"HOW DO I LET THEM KNOW
AND TRUST ME ENOUGH

THAT I CAN TAKE THEM THERE?"

AND THESE WONDERFUL PEOPLE--

STUDENTS AND COLLEAGUES
AND FRIENDS--

THEY LET ME DO IT, YOU KNOW.

THEY SHOWED ME THE WAY.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHY
IT WORKED.

MIRIAM: DID YOU GO TO ANY OF
THE PERFORMANCES

THAT WERE HAPPENING AROUND
THAT TIME?

LIKE, THERE WAS THE CELLAR,
WHERE THERE WAS A LOT OF DEAF--

FIRST THERE WERE SOME
DEAF JAM THINGS HAPPENING

AT SOME PARTIES,

THAT HAVE BEEN CALLED HEADY MAZE

THAT PETER AND DENNIS WEBSTER

AND SOME OTHER FOLKS WERE
DOING. MIKE HANSEN.

THEN THEY WENT INTO THE CELLAR,

AND THEY DID MORE
PUBLIC SORT OF THINGS.

WERE YOU PART OF THAT SCENE, OR
DID YOU GO TO ANY OF THAT STUFF?

ZAWERUCHA: IS JAZZBERRY'S
PART OF THAT SCENE? HA HA!

MIRIAM: THAT WAS
A LITTLE BIT LATER.

THAT WAS A LITTLE BIT LATER.
BUT THAT, TOO.

I'D LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT
THAT, TOO.

ZAWERUCHA: I THINK I ARRIVED,
LIKE, IN THE JAZZBERRY ERA.

YOU KNOW, WE'D ALL GO
AND GET FOOD

AND THEN JUST GO WATCH OUR
FRIENDS EXPRESS AND BE ARTISTS.

YOU KNOW, IT WAS INTERESTING.

WHEN I WAS AT NTID,

I HAD STUDENTS,
AND THEN I HAD FRIENDS.

AND SOMETIMES I WOULD APPROACH
MY FRIENDS.

EVEN THOUGH THEY
WERE MY STUDENTS,

THEY WERE ALSO MY FRIENDS,
BECAUSE I UNDERSTOOD

THEIR CREATIVITY,

AND I RESPECTED
THE LEVEL OF THEIR CREATIVITY,

AND I REALLY WANTED THEM TO
KNOW THAT I WAS MEETING THEM

ON EQUAL GROUND.

WHAT THEY KNEW AND WHAT THEY
WERE OFFERING ME,

I HAD HOPED THAT I WOULD
RECIPROCATE THROUGH MY DANCE

AND THROUGH THE ARTISTRY THAT
I HAVE BEEN PASSIONATE...ABOUT.

WHAT WAS THE SURPRISE WAS THAT
MY PASSION WAS INCREASED

BY THEIR PASSION.

AND THOSE 2 WORLDS MET.

SO, YEAH, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED
BACK THERE--HA HA--

IN ROCHESTER, NEW YORK.

MIRIAM: IN ROCHESTER.
THAT'S AMAZING.

IT WAS LIKE THE NEXUS OF IT.

PETER AND DEBBIE SPECIFICALLY
HAVE SAID

THAT THE MOVEMENT SORT OF THINGS
THAT YOU WORKED WITH THEM

WITHIN DANCE REALLY AFFECTED
THEIR WORK.

AND I WONDER WHEN YOU WATCHED,
LIKE, THE DVD THAT I SENT YOU

AND OTHER THINGS THAT YOU MIGHT
REMEMBER FROM THAT TIME,

CAN YOU LOOK AT THEIR STUFF
AND GO, "OH, I CAN SEE

HOW I HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF
INFLUENCE,"

AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY

ABOUT BEING EGOCENTRIC
OR ANYTHING

ABOUT SAYING IT,
BUT YOU COULD MAYBE--

HAVE YOU NOTICED ANY SORT OF
MOVEMENTS OR ANY SORT OF WAYS

THAT THEY WORK THAT WOULD SHOW
THAT YOU HAD

A LITTLE BIT OF AN INDELIBLE
STAMP ON THEM?

ZAWERUCHA: WELL, YOU KNOW,
MIRIAM, SOMETHING DID OCCUR.

BY MY LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF
SIGN LANGUAGE

AND BY MY SORT OF INNOCENCE
IN THAT REALM,

I WOULD BRING
MY FULL BODY EXPRESSION TO IT.

AND THEY WOULD SHOW ME
AN EXACT SIGN AND SAY,

"OH, NO. THIS IS HOW YOU
SIGN IT,"

AND BE LIKE, "OH! NOW I KNOW."

BUT THEN WHEN I'D GO AND USE IT
TO COMMUNICATE TO THEM,

I WOULD ADD SOMETHING ABOUT ME
AND MY MOVEMENT.

AND I ALWAYS CALLED IT A KIND OF
POETIC LICENSE.

AND SO I'D BE TALKING TO THEM
ABOUT MOVEMENT

AND NOT ONLY BE ADDING MY OWN
PHYSICALITY TO IT, YEAH?

BUT I WOULD BE ADDING A CONCEPT
OF TIME AND SPACE.

AND IT'S TRUE IN POETRY, TOO,

THAT THERE'S A PLACE BETWEEN
THE WORDS

AND A PLACE BETWEEN
THE MOVEMENT.

AND THAT'S THE PLACE I ALWAYS
WANT TO GO TO CREATIVELY.

AND THAT'S THE SPACE THAT
CONTINUES TO INTRIGUE ME

TILL THIS DAY.

AND WHEN I'M USING MOVEMENT,
IT'S JUST A PART OF MY BODY.

I JUST CARRY IT.

AND SO WHAT I BRING TO
THE LANGUAGE,

TO AN EXACT WORD, SOMETIMES
I STRETCH IT, YOU KNOW?

I LET IT BE MORE FLUID.
I CREATE A WORD.

I MOLD IT. I SCULPT IT.

AND I THINK THEY WERE RESPONDING
TO THAT.

AND THEY WEREN'T CORRECTING ME.

THEY WEREN'T SAYING, "OH,
BY THE WAY, YOU'RE IN A FRAME,

AND YOU SHOULD WORK WITHIN
A FRAME,"

OR, "OH, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED
TO SPIN WHEN YOU SAY THAT WORD,"

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

SO THEY LET ME BRING MY GIFT
TO THEIR LANGUAGE.

AND I FOUND LATER, WHEN I LEFT
ROCHESTER AND CAME TO NEW YORK

THAT I WAS AROUND PEOPLE THAT
WERE LOOKING AT SIGN LANGUAGE

FROM A MORE EXACT FORM, RIGHT,

AND I REALIZED HOW MUCH
POETIC LICENSE I HAD TAKEN

AND HOW MUCH THEY LET ME BRING
MYSELF TO THE LANGUAGE.

AND THAT, I THINK,
MADE THE CHOREOGRAPHY

CROSS BOTH WORLDS.

IT WAS NOT ONLY A DANCE WORLD,

IT WAS NOT ONLY
A WORLD OF POETRY,

WHICH, BY THE WAY, I VIEW ALL
DANCE AS POETRY.

I TRY TO FIND THE POETRY
OF ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING.

AND I BELIEVE IT IS
IN ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING.

SO, YEAH, I'M NOT SURE IF THAT
EXACTLY ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION.

MIRIAM: IN A ROUNDABOUT WAY.
ZAWERUCHA: YEAH.

MIRIAM: SO WHEN I LOOKED
AT, LIKE, "MISSING CHILDREN"

THAT DEBBIE AND KENNY WROTE
TOGETHER--

AND I THINK THAT WAS
ON THE DVD--

AND SHE HAS A LOT OF DANCE,
SORT OF, MOVEMENTS IN THAT

AS WELL AS SOME CINEMATIC
TECHNIQUES--IN SLOW MOTION

AND SOME OTHER THINGS.

I HAVE AN INTERVIEW WITH
HER, AND SHE DOES TALK ABOUT

HAVING SOME DANCE BACKGROUND,

BUT THE BULK OF HER DANCE
INFLUENCE WAS YOU.

AND I SEE HER MOVEMENT HAS
GOT THIS--

THIS WON'T BE ON THE TAPE,

BUT I HAVEN'T SEEN A LOT OF YOUR
WORK YET,

BECAUSE I HAVE TO FIND
THE TAPES--

IF PEOPLE WILL GIVE THE DAMN
THINGS TO ME--

OF THAT TIME PERIOD.

AND THEN MAYBE I'LL SEE IT.

I'M HOPING TO CUT THINGS,

BECAUSE I THINK WE'LL SEE SOME
INFLUENCES.

AND IF I CAN FIND THOSE
OLD PERFORMANCES, TOO,

I THINK WE CAN JUXTAPOSE THEM
AND SHOW THAT EVEN MORE CLEARLY.

BUT I JUST WONDERED IF YOU, WHEN
YOU WATCHED THAT, IF YOU GO,

"YUP, THAT WAS A LITTLE THING
THAT I USED TO DO,"

OR, "THAT'S THE THING THAT I
KIND OF WAS TRYING TO GET

MY STUDENTS TO DO MORE OF,"
OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

ZAWERUCHA: YEAH. I THINK I GAVE
THEM THE LICENSE

TO USE THEIR WHOLE BODY,

NOT THAT I HAD TO TELL PETER AND
DEBBIE TO USE THEIR WHOLE BODY

OR DENNIS WEBSTER OR ANY
OF THEM.

WHAT I DID WAS I SAID, "THAT'S
BEAUTIFUL. THAT'S AWESOME.

AND WHAT IF...?"

AND THEN I'D SHOW THEM
THE WHAT IF. YOU KNOW?

AND, PARTICULARLY, WHEN THEY
WORKED IN MY ART

AND MY CHOREOGRAPHY, I WOULD ASK
THEM TO GO A LITTLE BIT BEYOND

WHAT PERCEIVED BOUNDARIES WERE
IN THE MOVEMENT

AND PERCEIVED BOUNDARIES
IN THE LANGUAGE

SO IT COULD TAKE IT
TO ANOTHER PLACE.

AND I THINK THAT THAT'S
WHEN IT WORKED MOST FOR ME,

AND CONTINUES IN A CHOREOGRAPHIC
SENSE TO WORK FOR ME.

I USE A LOT OF GESTURES.

AND I THINK THAT WHEN YOU CARRY
LANGUAGE THAT IS TRYING

TO COMMUNICATE SOMETHING

AND YOU'RE USING GESTURE

AND YOU ALSO HAVE
A DANCE BACKGROUND--

A FORMAL DANCE BACKGROUND--

AND YOU'RE PASSIONATE ABOUT
ALL THESE THINGS,

WHEN YOU GET THE FINAL
COMBINATION OF ALL THAT,

IT'S A NEW THING.

IT'S A FRESH AND NEW THING.

AND IT'S VERY PRECIOUS.

AND I THINK THAT IF YOU TAKE
THAT TO YOUR POETRY, YOU KNOW,

THE SKY'S THE LIMIT. TRULY.

MIRIAM: DID YOU USE ANY OTHER
GENRES IN YOUR WORK?

LIKE, I'M THINKING
CINEMATIC TECHNIQUES

OF THINGS THAT ARE STRONG
ELEMENTS IN ASL POETRY.

WERE ANY OF THOSE SORTS OF
THINGS INCORPORATED

INTO YOUR DANCE OR CHOREOGRAPHY?

DID YOU USE SLOW MOTION
OR CINEMATIC THINGS OR ANGLES,

ANYTHING LIKE THAT?

ZAWERUCHA: THROUGH
MY DANCE BACKGROUND, OF COURSE,

SLOW MOTION IS JUST EXQUISITE.

AS FAR AS THE TECHNOLOGY
OF USING

ANY OF THE GENRES' TECHNOLOGIES,
I DIDN'T HAVE THAT KNOWLEDGE.

I CAME INTO NTID, YOU KNOW,
A DANCER,

A YOUNG GIRL WHO WROTE POETRY
AND READ LOTS OF POETRY.

I WAS AN ENGLISH MAJOR
IN COLLEGE,

AND ONE OF MY DREAMS WAS TO BE
A POET.

AND THE BEAUTY OF DANCE WAS
THAT IT IS POETRY.

AND I CONTINUE TO SEE DANCING
AS A FORM OF POETRY

WHEN IT COMES FROM A DEEP
AND AUTHENTIC PLACE.

SO IT'S NOT THAT YOU MIRROR
SOMEONE ELSE'S WORK

OR YOU TRY TO BE A PART OF
A PARTICULAR TIMELY EVIDENT--

OR EVENT.

IT'S WHEN SOMETHING DEEP INSIDE
YOU IS COMING OUT,

AND IT'S COMING OUT IN A TRUTH.

AND AT THAT POINT, THE LANGUAGE,
THE MOVEMENT IS ONE. IS ONE.

MIRIAM: DID YOU INCORPORATE
SIGNS INTO...

YOU SAY YOU USE A LOT OF
GESTURE NOW,

BUT AT THIS TIME WHEN YOU WERE
LEARNING, DID YOU PUT

ACTUAL SIGNS IN THE DANCES
THEMSELVES?

ZAWERUCHA: YEAH, YEAH.

MIRIAM: AND SO WERE
THE LINGUISTICS OF THE SIGNS

SOMETHING THAT YOU WERE...

WAS IT HOW THE SIGN LOOKED THAT
WOULD MATCH THE MOVEMENT?

OR WERE YOU LOOKING AT
THE MEANING OF THE SIGN

TO REFLECT THE MOVEMENT

OR THE MOVEMENT TO REFLECT
THE MEANING OF THE SIGN?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT I'M GETTING AT,
SORT OF?

ZAWERUCHA: YEAH,
IT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

AND THE ANSWER IS YES.

I REMEMBER DOING SOME WORK
WITH DEBBIE RENNIE.

AND WE WERE DOING A PIECE CALLED
"GIFTS"

AND WHAT WE KNOW OF GIFTS.

AND, YOU KNOW, DEBBIE IS SUCH
AN INTUITIVE MOVER

AND JUST A BRILLIANT MIND
IN HER OWN RIGHT.

AND, YOU KNOW, HERE I HAD THIS
INCREDIBLE TOOL TO WORK WITH.

YOU KNOW, A HUMAN BEING
BUT, NONETHELESS, SHE WAS MINE,

YOU KNOW.

AND I WOULD BRING
THE SIGN LANGUAGE

TO THE MOVEMENT, AND THEN I
WOULD DO PERMUTATIONS ON THAT.

SO IF YOU HAVE A GIFT AND THEN
YOU OFFER THAT GIFT TO SOMEONE,

THERE'S SOMETHING BETWEEN
THIS SOMEONE AND YOURSELF

THAT THE LANGUAGE IS GOING
THROUGH THAT PASSAGE.

AND THAT'S WHEN A GIFT
IS LIKE...

[EXHALES]

AND YOU CAN WORK WITH THESE
SLOW MOTIONS.

OR YOU CAN TAKE IT FROM
SOMETHING NOT QUITE AN EXACT

BUT THERE'S A GIVING
AND A SHARING AND EXPRESSING,

AND YOU GO PAST THE POINT
IN BETWEEN.

AND IT'S THAT MIDDLE PLACE,
THAT SPACE--

THAT'S THE INFINITE.

AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK POETRY
GOES TO AND WHAT DANCE GOES TO.

AND IT'S LIKE YOU HAVE
A WORD HERE AND A WORD HERE.

AND, AGAIN, IT'S THAT SPACE
IN BETWEEN.

AND YOU USE EVERYTHING--YOU
KNOW, YOUR WHOLE PHYSICALITY,

YOUR WHOLE MENTAL, YOUR WHOLE
SPIRITUAL,

YOUR WHOLE INTUITIVE.

YOU TAKE EVERYTHING. YOU PUT IT
IN THAT SPACE.

AND THAT'S THE HOT SPOT.
THAT'S THE LAVA.

THAT'S THE PLACE WHERE
THINGS HAPPEN.

AND SO WHEN I WOULD COMMUNICATE
TO...DEBBIE ABOUT GIFTS,

I'D KEEP TRYING TO GO
TO THAT PLACE. YEAH.

MIRIAM: MM-HMM. COOL.

[INDISTINCT CONVERSATION]

MIRIAM: THEY TOUR ALL OVER
THE PLACE.

THE DIRECTOR LIVES
IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

MAYBE I'LL ASK YOU TO MENTION
THAT NEXT.

MAN: WHAT WERE YOU GONNA SAY?

DIFFERENT MAN:
THIS IS A FUNNY ASIDE...

ZAWERUCHA: AND I COULD REALLY
GET INTO THE FACT THAT THEY

WERE USING SIGN LANGUAGE IN
A POETIC LICENSE KIND OF WAY.

WHAT I DIDN'T REALIZE WAS
I WAS PICKING UP SIGN LANGUAGE

FROM THEM.

THEY WERE MY TEACHERS.

AND SO, PERHAPS, I WAS TEACHING
A MOVEMENT.

I WAS USING A GREAT DEAL OF
DISCIPLINE,

A GREAT DEAL OF TECHNIQUE.

I MEAN, I WAS EXPOSING THEM
TO THE NUTS AND BOLTS OF DANCE,

NOT ONLY FROM MY PASSIONATE SIDE

BUT ALSO FROM
MY MASTER TEACHERS.

I COME FROM A LEGACY OF
POWERFUL PEOPLE--

DANCERS WHO KNEW THEIR STUFF.

AND THEY WERE EXTRAORDINARILY
GENEROUS WITH THEIR KNOWLEDGE,

AND IT WAS ALL GIVEN TO ME.

AND NOW THEY WERE BEHIND ME.

AND I HAD THESE YOUNG PEOPLE
IN FRONT OF ME.

SO I WAS DEFINITELY SHARING
SOMETHING TO THEM.

AND WHAT THEY WERE SHARING BACK
WAS THIS WHOLE BEAUTIFUL WORLD

OF SPONTANEOUS MOVEMENT,
LANGUAGE, AND, YOU KNOW,

IT WAS JUST VERY RICH.
[DEVICE BEEPING]

AND I MADE A LOT OF MISTAKES,
AND THE COFFEE'S READY.

[LAUGHTER]

MIRIAM: THAT'S A GOOD THING.

GO AHEAD.

ZAWERUCHA: YOU KEEP GOING,
AND THEY'LL GET THE CUPS.

MIRIAM: GO GET YOUR COFFEE.

WHAT WERE YOUR TEACHERS' NAMES
IF YOU'D LIKE TO MENTION,

YOU WANT TO HONOR
SOME OF YOUR TEACHERS?

ZAWERUCHA: GOODNESS GRACIOUS.
I HAD SO MANY OF THEM.

AND I'M GONNA HESITATE BECAUSE
I'D HATE TO LEAVE ONE OUT.

MIRIAM: OK. NEVER MIND, THEN.

ZAWERUCHA: BUT I WILL SAY THAT
MY JOURNEY IN DANCE STARTED

IN AN IMPROV CLASS
IN NEW YORK CITY.

AND IT WAS WITH A TEACHER NAMED
NORMA [INDISTINCT].

AND SHE WAS A PRETTY POWERFUL
LADY AND VERY, VERY CREATIVE.

AN ARTIST.

AND SHE SAW SOMETHING IN ME
THAT I DIDN'T SEE.

AND SHE KEPT ME AT IT.

AND WHEN SHE GOT A JOB AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO,

THAT WAS MY JOURNEY TO DANCE
IN A SERIOUS WAY.

UP UNTIL THAT POINT,
I WAS STILL PLANNING ON WRITING

FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES"--
HA HA--AND WRITING.

I WAS KEEPING JOURNALS REGULARLY

AND JUST GOING
TO POETRY READINGS

AND LIVING A WORLD OF LITERATURE
AND THE ART IN THE POEMS.

AND DANCE CAME IN AND...

[SLAP]

I FELL DEEPLY IN LOVE
WITH DANCE. YEAH.

MIRIAM: YOU ARE TEACHING DANCE
NOW TO KIDS, TO DEAF KIDS.

ZAWERUCHA: YEAH, I AM.

MIRIAM: AND I'M WONDERING,
WHAT DO YOU SEE IN YOUR DANCE

THAT'S INFLUENCING THEM?

LIKE, HOW ARE
YOU WORKING WITH THEM?

ARE YOU WORKING WITH THEM
IN A DIFFERENT WAY

THAN THE COLLEGE STUDENTS THAT
YOU USED TO WORK WITH?

AND WHY TEACH DEAF KIDS?
WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?

ZAWERUCHA: WELL, I THINK
THE QUESTION SHOULD BE, WHY NOT?

YOU KNOW, WHY TEACH ANYONE?

I BELIEVE IF YOU HAVE A GIFT,
YOU SHOULD SHARE IT.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE YOUR PATH
IS, WHERE YOU'RE GONNA END UP,

YOU KNOW.

I HAD NO IDEA WHEN I WAS GETTING
MY MASTER'S AT MILLS COLLEGE

THAT I WOULD END UP IN
ROCHESTER, NEW YORK, TEACHING

AT THE NATIONAL TECHNICAL
INSTITUTE FOR THE DEAF.

I DO KNOW THAT WHEN I ARRIVED
AND BEGAN TO BE A PART OF IT,

I REALIZED I WAS QUITE
COMFORTABLE.

SO IT SORT OF TELLS YOU THAT
YOU ARRIVED, YOU KNOW,

THAT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S
IN FRONT OF US,

BUT WHEN WE GET THERE, THERE'S
A FEELING OF HAVING ARRIVED.

AND, AGAIN, I WILL SAY THAT
THESE FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES

TREATED ME THAT WAY,
AS IF YOU'VE ARRIVED.

YOU KNOW,
"WELCOME IN TO THE FAMILY."

AND THAT WAS WONDERFUL,
REALLY WONDERFUL.

WITH CHILDREN, IT'S INTERESTING.

WHEN I WAS TEACHING
COLLEGE-AGE YOUNG PEOPLE,

THEY WERE TELLING ME ABOUT
THEIR HORROR STORIES

AND THEIR DREAMS AND HOPES
WHEN THEY WERE CHILDREN.

AND I KEPT THINKING,
"GOODNESS GRACIOUS!

"WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO
THE YOUNG DEAF CHILDREN

"AND CHANGE WHAT I'M HEARING
SO THAT THEY CAN GROW UP

"WITH A MORE PERSONAL SENSE
OF SAFETY,

A MORE RIGHTEOUS SENSE OF
'I AM PRESENT IN THIS CULTURE.

I AM HERE.'"

AND KNOCK, KNOCK.

YOU KNOW, "I'M HERE, AND I'M
GONNA MAKE A DIFFERENCE."

WE NEED TO GET THOSE YOUNG
CHILDREN TO GROW UP AND BECOME

THE KIND OF TALENTS LIKE
A PETER COOK,

LIKE A DEBBIE RENNIE,
LIKE A PATRICK GRAYBILL.

AND WHEN, SUDDENLY, I ARRIVED
IN BROOKLYN, NEW YORK,

AND I WAS IN THAT POSITION,
I DID A LITTLE...

YOU KNOW, I LOOK BACK
AND REALIZED

I HAD THOUGHT THAT TO MYSELF,

THAT WE NEED TO MAKE THAT
DIFFERENCE.

SO I TOLD MYSELF THAT I WOULD
TRY TO MAKE THAT DIFFERENCE

ONE-TO-ONE ON EACH OF THESE
STUDENTS.

I WOULD TRY TO BECOME WHAT
I WAS HOPING WOULD EXIST.

YOU KNOW, HAVE I BEEN
SUCCESSFUL? I DON'T KNOW.

I DO KNOW THAT SEVERAL OF MY
STUDENTS CAME TO THE READING

LAST NIGHT,

AND THEY WERE TOTALLY INVOLVED.

AND ONE OF MY STUDENTS, ARMANDO,
CAME UP, AND HE SAID

HE'S GONNA TRY.

YOU KNOW, HE'S GONNA TRY TO GET
INVOLVED MORE WITH PERFORMING

AND POETRY AND WRITING.

AND I LOOKED AT HIM, AND I SAID,

"YOU HAVE THE SENSITIVE HEART
FOR THAT.

YOU HAVE THE SOUL, THE SPIRIT.
DON'T STOP. DO THAT."

SO, YOU KNOW, THEY SAY IF YOU
REACH ONE PERSON.

SO I DON'T KNOW IF THAT ANSWERS
YOUR QUESTION, PER SE,

BUT IT'S NOT THAT I CHANGED
MY TEACHING

BECAUSE THEY WERE CHILDREN
AND DEAF CHILDREN.

IT'S THAT I HAD TO BRING
EVERYTHING I KNEW

FROM MY NTID EXPERIENCE

AND THE EXPERIENCE
THAT THESE INDIVIDUALS

SO GRACIOUSLY GAVE ME.

I HAD TO BRING THAT ALL BACK
TO THE NEXT GENERATION,

AND THAT I HAPPEN TO HAVE BEEN
THE TRANSFER POINT.

YOU KNOW, I'M LIKE THE CATALYST.
AND, YEAH, I'LL KEEP TRYING.

MIRIAM: YEAH. DO YOU SEE...UM...

NO. THAT ONE IS FINE.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT SIGNS
AND DANCE WITH THE KIDS

AND EVERYTHING,
BUT THAT'S TANGENTIAL.

THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT I NEED
UNLESS THERE'S ANYTHING ELSE

YOU'D LIKE TO ADDRESS.

ANYTHING MORE...

MAN: I THINK THAT WE SHOULD ASK
HER A FEW THINGS.

ONE--THAT WE SHOULD ASK HER WHAT
SHE REMEMBERS FROM JAZZBERRY'S.

[LAUGHTER]

[INDISTINCT CONVERSATION]

KENNY: JUST ME, DEBBIE,
AND STEFA WORKING TOGETHER,

YOU KNOW.

JUST [INDISTINCT].

ZAWERUCHA: AND DOROTHY,
THE WHOLE THING WITH DOROTHY.

REMEMBER THAT?

ZAWERUCHA: WHAT'S THE NAME OF
THAT PIECE, STEFA...

KENNY: THE ONE YOU TOOK
NEW YORK.

ZAWERUCHA: OH, "PLACE SETTINGS"?
KENNY: YEAH...

ZAWERUCHA: "PLACE SETTINGS."
KENNY: THAT WAS REALLY...

ZAWERUCHA: I MEAN, THERE'S SO
MANY PLACES WE CAN GO WITH THIS.

MIRIAM, FEEL FREE TO--I MEAN,
KENNY, YOU'RE RIGHT...

KENNY: YOUR TIME IS LIMITED, BUT
I JUST THINK THAT JAZZBERRY'S

AND WHEN WE CAME TO NEW YORK
CITY, I THINK THAT THAT WAS

REALLY A SPECIAL THING.

MIRIAM: WHAT'S THE TIME THING
THAT YOU TOLD ME ABOUT?

THE PIECE THAT I KEEP ASKING
YOU ABOUT.

KENNY: "PLACE SETTINGS."
MIRIAM: NO, NO, NO, NO.

THE OTHER ONE...

ZAWERUCHA:
"PUNCTUATED EQUILIBRIUM."

MIRIAM: THAT ONE.
KENNY: OH, OK.

ZAWERUCHA: YEAH, THAT WAS
PERFORMED.

THAT WAS A COLLABORATION WITH
MY HUSBAND, DAVID FRITZ,

AND CAT ASHWORTH,
THE VIDEOGRAPHER

AND JIM--I WANT TO--
JIM DEMILLE, MUSIC.

THERE WAS QUITE
A FEW INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED

IN THAT...

[MAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY]

ZAWERUCHA: NO.
IN "PUNCTUATED EQUILIBRIUM."

MAN: THAT WAS DENNIS...?
KENNY: DENNIS WEBSTER.

ZAWERUCHA: OH, DENNIS WEBSTER
WAS IN THAT.

MAN: THAT WAS JUST YOU
AND DENNIS, HUH?

ZAWERUCHA: YEAH.
AND PERFORMING, CAT.

AND WE...THAT WAS
FIRST PERFORMED AT NTID.

AND THEN LATER WE PERFORMED IT
AT THE PYRAMID ARTS CENTER

IN ROCHESTER.

WE WERE NOT ABLE TO TAKE IT
TO NEW YORK CITY,

BUT IT WAS ON CABLE.

SO SOME PEOPLE, PERHAPS, HAVE
SEEN IT ON CABLE. YEAH.

AND THEN DURING THAT
SAME PERIOD,

DAVE AND I WOULD SORT OF DO
CHILL DOWN TIME.

YOU KNOW, IT WAS INTERESTING.

WE WERE DANCING ALL DAY
AND DANCING ALL NIGHT.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE WOULD
DO TO SORT OF JUST HANG OUT

AND CHILL IS GO TO EACH OTHER'S
HOMES

AND CONTINUE TO BE CREATIVE,
WILD MANIACS

AND JUST, YOU KNOW,
AGAIN, SKY'S THE LIMIT

IN TERMS OF HOW WE'D PLAY
TOGETHER AND CREATED TOGETHER.

AND THEN IN A MORE FORMAL WAY,

THEY TOLD US ABOUT THESE
POETRY READINGS

THAT WOULD BE IN DOWNTOWN
ROCHESTER,

WHICH WAS AT A RESTAURANT.

AND IT WAS CALLED JAZZBERRY'S.
AND IT HAD GREAT FOOD.

AND PEOPLE WOULD GO THERE,
AND WE'D JUST CHOW DOWN.

AND THEN AFTERWARDS THERE WOULD
BE THESE READINGS.

AND DAVE AND I WOULD GO THERE,
AND THESE WONDERFUL FRIENDS

AND POETS--DEAF POETS--WOULD
DO THEIR THING.

AND I'D JUST SIT BACK AND BE IN
SEVENTH HEAVEN

BECAUSE THERE IT WAS, YOU KNOW?

AND I WOULD WATCH THEIR ART
AND THEIR PASSION.

AND THAT WAS VERY INSPIRING.

MIRIAM: DID YOU EVER GO TO
ANY OF THE READINGS THAT WERE

WITH HEARING PEOPLE WITH
INTERPRETIVE PERFORMANCES

THAT WERE REHEARSED?

LIKE, A HEAVY-DUTY TRANSLATED,
INTERPRETIVE PERFORMANCE

OF HEARING POETS AS WELL?

THE "PAINTED ROPE" SERIES

THAT JIM COHN HAD
GOING OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?

ZAWERUCHA: MY EXPERIENCE MIGHT
HAVE BEEN THROUGH JIM COHN,

MAYBE HEARING SOME OF HIS POETRY
THROUGH HIM.

MIRIAM: OK.

ZAWERUCHA: THE TRUTH WAS, IS I
WAS SO INVOLVED

IN THAT CIRCLE THAT I WAS IN

THAT I DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH
OPPORTUNITIES TO EXPLORE.

THERE WAS WRITERS & BOOKS.

I THINK IN ROCHESTER, THERE WAS
A PLACE CALLED WRITERS & BOOKS.

AND I DIDN'T GET A CHANCE--

THERE WAS ALWAYS A LITTLE TAP
ON MY SHOULDER, SAYING,

"THAT'S THERE. THAT'S THERE."

BUT I WAS SO INVOLVED IN
THE CIRCLE THAT I WAS IN.

SO I DIDN'T GET AN OPPORTUNITY
TO EXPLORE THAT.

PERHAPS THAT'S ANOTHER PASSAGE
IN MY LIFE.

IT WAS ENOUGH TO DO EXACTLY
WHAT I WAS DOING.

MIRIAM: WHAT ABOUT YOUR IMPROV
GROUP?

I DID WANT TO ASK ABOUT THAT.

ZAWERUCHA: WELL, I GOT

INTO DANCE THROUGH IMPROV.

THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT DANCE WAS,

WAS IMPROVISATION

AND JUST LETTING YOUR WHOLE
BEING EXPRESS.

AND SO I BROUGHT THAT INTO
THE COMMUNITY.

AND PEOPLE WOULD BE LIKE,
"OH, I'VE NEVER DANCED BEFORE."

I SAID, "WELL,
WHEN I FIRST DID IMPROV,

"I NEVER DANCED BEFORE.

SO COME ON." HA HA!

AND SO DAVE AND I HAD A LOFT IN
DOWNTOWN ROCHESTER.

I THINK IT WAS ON ST. PAUL'S.

AND WE HAD ON FRIDAY NIGHTS
OPEN IMPROV.

AND IT WAS--PEOPLE WERE COMING
IN FROM EVERY DIRECTION:

DEAF, HEARING, ARTISTS,
TECHNICIANS, WRITERS, MUSICIANS,

VIDEOGRAPHERS.

WE WERE A WILD GROUP
OF CREATIVE PEOPLE.

IT WAS RICH.
IT WAS FUN AND PASSIONATE.

AND FRIENDSHIPS,

DEEP FRIENDSHIPS EVOLVED OUT
OF THAT.

YOU KNOW, YOU WORK WITH SOMEONE
AT SUCH A LEVEL,

YOU CAN'T HELP BUT BOND
WITH THEM.

YEAH. THERE'S THAT RICH BONDING
THAT HAPPENS.

AND SO THAT WAS THE GIFT
OF THE ERA. YEAH.

MIRIAM: COOL. AND IS THAT
SOMETHING THAT IMPROV DID?

OR DOES THAT CLICK,
RESPOND TO YOU AND...

ZAWERUCHA: IT WAS WONDERFUL...

MIRIAM: KENNY AND DEBBIE
DOING IT? CAN YOU SPEAK TO THAT?

ZAWERUCHA: YEAH, WE HAD MANY
BRANCHES.

SO THE IMPROV GROUPS
AT THE LOFT WAS

ONE ASPECT OF IT.

WE HAD
THE CHOREOGRAPHIC PROJECTS

THAT WE ALL DID.

ONE WAS "PLACE SETTINGS"
THAT KENNY LERNER

AND DEBBIE RENNIE WERE INVOLVED
IN, AND DAVID FRITZ.

AND WE TOOK THAT TO NEW YORK
CITY TO DANCE THEATER WORKSHOP.

AND A WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL
TIME PERFORMING THAT

IN NEW YORK CITY.

IT WAS MY OWN WORK, SO I'LL LET
SOMEONE ELSE TALK ABOUT

ITS SUCCESS,

BUT A REAL JOY TO WORK ON,
A REAL JOY TO WORK ON.

AND IT'S AN EVOLUTIONARY PIECE
BECAUSE I DID IT YEARS AGO,

WHEN I WAS A GRADUATE STUDENT
WITH A COLLEAGUE AT THAT TIME,

A DANCER.

HER NAME IS SUSAN GALLIGAN.

AND SHE ALSO HAD WORKED
WITH THE DEAF.

AND HER EXPERIENCE IN
"PLACE SETTINGS"

WAS THEN REPLACED BY
DEBBIE RENNIE YEARS LATER.

AND IT WAS ABOUT A COUPLE
AND THEIR AGING PROCESS

FROM YOUNG LOVE TO THE TIES
THAT BOND IN YOUR EARLY YEARS

AND IN YOUR MIDDLE YEARS
AND THEN IN YOUR OLDER YEARS,

WHERE YOU BEGIN NEW TIES.

AND YOU SEPARATE THE OLD TIES
AND ADD NEW ONES.

AND YOU DO PERMUTATIONS ON
YOUR RELATIONSHIP

INTO OLD AGE

AND THEN THE PASSING
AND THE SEPARATENESS

OF THAT JOURNEY.

AND I MUST SAY THAT DEBBIE WAS
EXQUISITE.

AND WHAT SHE BROUGHT TO THAT
PIECE WAS

A VERY EXACT
AND FULL UNDERSTANDING OF AGING.

SHE WAS ABLE THROUGH HER MIND,
THROUGH HER SKILLS AS A POET,

THROUGH HER SKILLS
AS AN ACTRESS,

SHE WAS ABLE TO AGE BEFORE
OUR VERY EYES,

THAT WHEN SHE PORTRAYED SOMEONE
IN THEIR 80s--

SHE WAS IN HER YOUNG 20s--

IT TOOK MY BREATH AWAY.

AND IT WILL ALWAYS LAST
IN MY MEMORY

THAT SHE WAS ABLE TO TRANSFORM
HER BODY

AND DO THE MOVEMENT.

AND IT WAS REAL.

SHE MADE IT REAL.

IT'S A GIFT THAT SHE HAD,

AND THAT I HAD THE PLEASURE
TO WORK WITH.

AND, OF COURSE,
DAVID IN HIS WILD ABANDON,

HE JUST COMPLEMENTED IT.

AND HE'S A RUNNING THEME.

HE DID IT WHEN SUSAN GALLIGAN
WAS HIS PARTNER.

HE DID IT

WHEN VARIOUS
OTHER PEOPLE WERE HIS PARTNER.

AND WHEN DEBBIE WAS HIS PARTNER,
THEY HAD GREAT CHEMISTRY.

WOULDN'T YOU SAY SO, KENNY?

KENNY: OH, AMAZING.
ZAWERUCHA: AWESOME, AWESOME,

AWESOME CHEMISTRY.

MIRIAM: IS THERE ANY DOCUMENT OF
THIS? THERE'S NO FILM OF THIS?

ZAWERUCHA: THERE MAY BE
A DOCUMENT.

I'M NOT SURE IT STILL EXISTS.
I'D HAVE TO SEARCH IT OUT.

LET'S SEE IF WE CAN FIND IT.

MAN: THERE MIGHT BE ONE IN
THE EARLIEST [INDISTINCT]

PERFORMANCES IN NEW YORK.

THEY AIRED A POEM DEBBIE DID
THAT'S CALLED "CHOCOLATE."

MIRIAM: "I RAPE CHOCOLATE."

ZAWERUCHA: AH, "CHOCOLATE"!
YEAH, YEAH.

SO, YEAH, SO THAT CHEMISTRY
WORKED REAL WELL.

THE THING I HAVE TO SAY IS
THROUGH THE ENTIRE PROCESS,

I FOUND THE CHEMISTRY WITH
THE INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED WAS

ALWAYS PERFECTION.

[KISS]

REALLY, REALLY FINE,
REALLY FINE STUFF.

SO I'VE BEEN A LUCKY WOMAN.

KENNY: I HAVE ONE QUESTION
FOR YOU.

WAY BACK WHEN I DID...

THIS IS ABOUT ME. SO YOU CAN
TURN OFF THE CAMERA.

MIRIAM: KENNY, I'M SORRY.
WE DON'T HAVE TIME.

KENNY: OK, BUT IT RELATES.
MIRIAM: IF IT RELATES, FINE.

KENNY: IT RELATES. I JUST WANT
TO KNOW BECAUSE OF THE FEATURE.

OK?
MIRIAM: OK, FINE.

KENNY: YOU SAID--WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT PETER AND ME AND DEBBIE,

BECAUSE WE WERE LIVING TOGETHER.

AND YOU COMPARED ME WITH SOMEONE
FROM A LONG TIME AGO

ARTS SCENE.

AND I WAS NOT AWARE OF
THAT TIME PERIOD.

DO YOU REMEMBER...

ZAWERUCHA: WAS IT
A PROFESSIONAL INDIVIDUAL?

KENNY: IT WAS A PROFESSIONAL
PERSON WHO WAS WORKING

WITH OTHER PEOPLE,
LIKE I WAS. AND...

ZAWERUCHA: AND I MADE
A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO?

KENNY: YOU DON'T REMEMBER.

ZAWERUCHA: I DON'T REMEMBER,
I'M SORRY TO SAY.

KENNY: OK, I WAS JUST CURIOUS...

ZAWERUCHA: BUT, YEAH,
I'M SURE YOU WERE. HA HA!

KENNY: I WAS JUST CURIOUS.

I WANTED TO KNOW WHO THAT WAS.

ZAWERUCHA: DAVID, YOU HAVE
A MEMORY OF ANYBODY?

DAVID: I'LL THINK ABOUT IT.
I'LL LET YOU KNOW.

ZAWERUCHA: WE'LL GIVE IT SOME
THOUGHT. YEAH.

KENNY: THINK ABOUT IT. YEAH.
ZAWERUCHA: YEAH.

[KENNY AND MIRIAM
SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY]

ZAWERUCHA: I THINK I JUST WANT
TO SAY ONE MORE THING,

IF I MAY.

MAN: YOU WANT TO STOP THIS?

BECAUSE IT'S GONNA MAKE
SOME NOISE.

MIRIAM: OH, OK...
KENNY: THANK YOU.

THANK YOU. ONE SECOND.
ONE SECOND. AND GO.

ZAWERUCHA: IT'S GREAT THAT AT
THIS POINT IN MY LIFE

THAT I STILL HAVE ACCESS TO
THOSE FRIENDSHIPS

AND THE BONDS THAT WE CREATED

AND THAT THE ARTISTRY, THE
PERSONAL EFFORT, AND PASSIONS

OF EACH INDIVIDUAL
IS CONTINUING,

THAT EACH OF US ARE BRINGING
TO OUR LIVES

THE LENGTH OF THAT,

THAT IT WASN'T A SHORT-LIVED
MOMENT IN TIME THAT'S GONE,

BUT THAT IT HAS AN EVOLUTION

AND THAT IT'S CONTINUING TO GROW
AND PROSPER.

AND I THINK THAT SEEING THE WORK
OF, LIKE, PETER COOK

AND KENNY LERNER AND SEEING
HOW IT'S DEVELOPED

AND HOW IT'S GROWING
AND THE PLACE THAT THEY ARE NOW,

THAT'S REAL SPECIAL
AND POIGNANT.

AND I'M SO, SO HAPPY TO SEE THAT
IT'S CONTINUING.

I'M REALLY GLAD FOR IT. YEAH.

MIRIAM: GREAT. I'M JUST GONNA
SCAN NEXT...

[PAGES RUSTLING]

I'LL HAVE ANOTHER LOOK TO
MAKE--THAT WE'VE GOT--

WE'VE COVERED BASICALLY...

THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PAPER.

I FIND THAT WHEN I'M LOOKING
FOR IT THAT I HAVE IT.

HERE IT IS.

OK.

ZAWERUCHA: HEY, YOU.

MIRIAM: YOU MET ALL THREE
OF THEM?

I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE
I'VE GOT THIS.

YOU MET PETER, YOU MET DEBBIE,
YOU MET KENNY, YOU MET PATRICK

ALL THROUGH
THE DANCE DEPARTMENT.

YOU HADN'T MET THEM ANYPLACE
ELSE BEFORE YOU MET THEM

AS YOUR ENTREE INTO THAT WORLD.
THEY WERE SOME OF THE FIRST...

ZAWERUCHA: YEAH, A PETRI DISH
WAS NTID.

[LAUGHTER]

ZAWERUCHA: YEAH, WE ALL SORT OF,
LIKE, DROPPED IN.

I MEAN, WELL, PATRICK WAS THERE.
HE WAS FACULTY THERE.

AND, YOU KNOW, PATRICK.
PATRICK IS SO EXPRESSIVE, SO...

I MEAN, I'M IN AWE OF HIS
ARTISTRY.

AND I REALLY HOPE I GET TO SEE
HIM SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE.

PATRICK'S FINGERS. THEY JUST,
LIKE, REACHED OUT, YOU KNOW?

HE USED THAT TIME AND SPACE
WITH HIS HANDS IN A WAY

I'VE NEVER SEE ANYONE DO IT.

HE WOULD EXPRESS SOMETHING
AND USE THE LANGUAGE.

AND HIS FINGERS
WOULD JUST, LIKE, LENGTHEN.

AND THEN THE ESSENCE
OF HIS POET

WAS RUNNING THROUGH HIS FINGERS.

AND HE WAS JUST A TOTAL PHYSICAL
BEING WITH HIS POETRY.

AND THEN HE WAS MY COLLEAGUE.

YOU KNOW, I'D SEE HIM EVERY DAY.

I WAS LIKE, "HEY, PATRICK.
HOW ARE YOU? WHAT'S UP?"

YOU KNOW?
AND HE'D TEACH ME.

AND THEY WOULD ALL TEACH ME.

SO, YEAH. THE PETRI DISH
WAS NTID FOR ME.

MIRIAM: BEAUTIFUL. THANK YOU.
ZAWERUCHA: YOU'RE WELCOME.

MIRIAM: THAT WAS GREAT.
THERE'S SO MUCH IN HERE.

THERE'S A LOT OF GREAT LITTLE
PEARLS THERE.

ZAWERUCHA:
I APPRECIATE THAT I'M INVOLVED.

"This project is supported by a Digitizing Hidden Collections grant from the Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR). The grant program is made possible by funding from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation."

Title supplied by cataloger

Heart of the hydrogen jukebox