ds_0027_kachides_cap_01.mp4

ds_0027_kachides_cap_01.mp4

Interview

Kachites, Donna

Kachites, Donna Interviews

Deaf, Theater for the

Interpreters for the deaf

American Sign Language literature

Deaf Poetry

Deaf, Writings of the, American

American poetry 20th century

ASL poetry

Part of a collection of interviews made for a film on ASL poetry, "The Heart of the Hydrogen Jukebox." In this interview, Donna Kachites discusses her work with a Deaf/hearing poetry performance troupe called "Bridge of..." in the 1980s in Rochester, New York.

National Technical Institute for the Deaf

Rochester Institute of Technology - RIT Libraries - RIT Archive Collections

Lerner, Miriam Nathan

2007

2018

moving image

mp4

DVD

68 minutes

American Sign Language

English

RITDSA.0027

Sculptures in the Air: An Accessible Online Video Repository of the American Sign Language (ASL) Poetry and Literature Collections

Miriam and Kenneth Lerner ASL Poetry Collection

2018-2019 CLIR Grant-ASL Poetry and Literature

https://albert.rit.…

https://archivesspa…

New York - Rochester

Henrietta Campus

RIT Libraries makes materials from its collections available for educational and research purposes pursuant to U.S. Copyright Law. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. It is your responsibility to obtain permission from the copyright holder to publish or reproduce images in print or electronic form.

CC BY-NC-ND: Attribution NonCommercial NoDerivatives 4.0 International

MY NAME IS
DONNA KACHIDES McCALLUM...

AND MY NAME SIGN IS A "D"
ON THE PALM OF MY HAND.

LET'S SEE.
WELL, I BEGAN INTERPRETING
IN 1983.

I WAS A STUDENT INTERPRETER
AT THAT TIME.

WELL, IT'S KIND OF
A FUNNY STORY.

I HAD SEEN MUSIC PERFORMANCES
WHERE THEY HAD INTERPRETERS

BY THE SIDE OF THE STAGE,

AND THEN I SAW DEAF PEOPLE
TALKING DURING THE BREAK

AND I WONDERED, "WHAT IS THAT?
THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING."

I WENT HOME THAT NIGHT,

AND I HAD A ROOMMATE IN
THE APARTMENT I WAS LIVING IN.

A FRIEND OF HERS
WAS SITTING THERE AND SAYING,

"OH, YOU KNOW,
HERE'S SOME SIGNS.
MOON, SUN, STARS."

I SAID, "WELL,
WHERE'D YOU LEARN THAT?

WHERE'D YOU LEARN THE SIGN?"

SHE SAID, "WELL, THERE'S
A COURSE AT MY COLLEGE

WHERE YOU CAN TAKE
SIGN LANGUAGE."

SO, THE VERY NEXT SEMESTER,
I DID ENROLL IN A COURSE,

AND I STARTED LEARNING IT,
FELL IN LOVE WITH IT,

AND THEN I TOOK ANOTHER COURSE
AND ANOTHER.

AND THEN I DECIDED
THAT I WOULD GO TO NTID

BECAUSE I HEARD THEY HAD
AN INTERPRETER TRAINING
PROGRAM OFFERED.

I APPLIED.
HOPED THAT THE BEST
WOULD HAPPEN.

I WAS INDEED ACCEPTED
AND THEN I ENTERED IT.

IT WAS SO EXCITING
TO STUDY INTERPRETING.

BUT THE MOST EXCITING PART
OF THE WHOLE THING WAS BEING

ABLE TO MAKE SO MANY FRIENDS,

LEARN FROM THE DEAF PEOPLE
ON CAMPUS, AND BECOME

MORE FIRMLY ENSCONCED
IN THE DEAF COMMUNITY.

I DO SPEAK A LITTLE BIT
OF SPANISH.

I DIDN'T AT THAT TIME.
I DIDN'T KNOW THAT MUCH,

BUT LATER ON, I GOT MY
BACHELOR'S IN SPANISH,

SO, I DIDN'T KNOW IT
AT THE TIME,

BUT LATER, I DID MAJOR IN IT.

I THINK THAT LEARNING ASL
TO THE EXTENT I DID

OPENED MY MIND, MY BRAIN TO BE

ABLE TO LEARN OTHER
LANGUAGES AS WELL.

YES. I CAME TO ENTER
THE INTERPRETER TRAINING PROGRAM

IN 1982 IN THE FALL.

I GRADUATED IN '84.

IN 1983, I BEGAN AS
A STUDENT INTERPRETER.

I WORKED FOR THE DEPARTMENT
OF INTERPRETING SERVICES

HERE ON CAMPUS AT RIT,

AND MOST OF MY INTERPRETING
AT THAT TIME

WAS NOT THE CLASSROOM,
IT WAS MORE

THE SOCIAL ASPECTS
OF CAMPUS LIFE.

THAT WAS BEFORE VRS,

BEFORE THE RELAY SERVICES
THAT WERE OFFERED.

THERE WAS A SPECIAL ROOM
ON CAMPUS THAT WAS SPECIFICALLY

FOR INTERPRETING
TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS.

IT WAS CALLED INTERCOM.

I ALSO PROVIDED SERVICES FOR
DORM MEETINGS AND PRESENTATIONS

WITH AUDIENCES THAT WERE MIXED
DEAF AND HEARING.

THAT SORT OF THING.

YEAH, I KNOW.
IT'S REALLY FUNNY.

UH, WHEN I LOOK BACK,
IT SEEMS, LET'S SEE.

MY MOTHER, I THINK,
WAS BORN IN 1920,

AND SHE SAW SO MANY
TECHNOLOGICAL CHANGES
AND ADVANCES,

AND THE SAME THING
IS TRUE FOR ME.

ALL WE HAD WAS INTERCOM
AT THAT TIME,

BECAUSE THERE WERE NO COMPUTERS.

I MEAN, THERE WERE COMPUTERS,
BUT NOT LIKE NOW, YOU KNOW,

AND NOT RELAY AND VRS,
SO, IT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT

TECHNOLOGICAL WORLD
WE LIVE IN NOW.

YEAH. EXACTLY.

I THINK IT'S THE SAME THING
FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS

AND WHAT IT'S LIKE NOW COMPARED
TO HOW WOMEN LIVED THEN.

MY MOTHER, MY GRANDMOTHER,
OUR GREAT-GRANDMOTHERS.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, REALLY,
COMPARED TO NOW,

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE
ALL THESE RIGHTS.

WE CAN VOTE, WE CAN WORK.

ALL THE THINGS THAT
WE TAKE FOR GRANTED

THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE
AT THAT TIME.

RIGHT.

WELL...IN TERMS OF
INTERPRETING POETRY,

BOTH SIGNED
AND ENGLISH POETRY...

HMM.

I MET JIM COHN DURING
THE INTERPRETER TRAINING PROGRAM

HERE AT NTID,

AND HE WAS A POET.

HE WROTE A LOT OF POEMS

AND HE WAS VERY ENCOURAGING.

THAT'S HOW IT STARTS.
HA HA!

THERE WAS A BLACK
STUDENT UNION PERFORMANCE,

AND THEY WERE DOING
"FOR COLORED GIRLS

WHO HAVE CONSIDERED SUICIDE/
WHEN THE RAINBOW IS ENUF"...

AND THAT PLAY HAD SEVERAL POEMS

INTERSPERSED BETWEEN THE OTHER
DRAMATIC ACTION ON THE STAGE.

SO, I WAS WORKING ON THAT.
I WAS DOING SOME TRANSLATION

TO BE ABLE TO INTERPRET
THE PERFORMANCE,

AND PATRICK GRAYBILL
CAME TO THE PERFORMANCE,

AND HE CRIED.

HE WAS REALLY TOUCHED BY IT.

I HAD DONE SO MUCH WORK
ON THE TRANSLATIONS.

REALLY IN-DEPTH WORK
TO BE ABLE TO

GIVE A CLEAR ASL RENDITION
OF THAT PIECE.

IT'S VERY POWERFUL.
IT WAS A WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE.

BUT I DON'T THINK
THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME

I'D INTERPRETED POETRY.

I THINK THE FIRST TIME
I DID POETRY WAS...WELL, HMM.

IT'S HARD TO REMEMBER
THE CHRONOLOGY OF IT ALL.

MOST OF MY EXPERIENCE
WITH INTERPRETING POETRY WAS

JIM'S WORK.

I WOULD INTERPRET
FOR HIS READINGS.

HE WANTED HIS WORK TO BE
ACCESSIBLE TO DEAF PEOPLE.

HE WAS STUDYING INTERPRETING
AND HE REALIZED

THAT THIS COULD HAPPEN.

YOU COULD HAVE
AN INTERPRETER WHO COULD

RENDER THE SAME MESSAGE,

AND HE WANTED TO REALLY
RELATE WITH AND TOUCH

AND CONNECT WITH
THIS NEW COMMUNITY

HE WAS BECOMING A PART OF.

HE'D SEE DEAF PEOPLE DOING
THEIR STORYTELLING OR PERFORMING

AND HE'D SAY, "YOU KNOW, THAT
REALLY IS A BEAUTIFUL LANGUAGE

AND THAT REALLY IS POETRY."

HE WOULD TELL THEM THAT,
AND I REMEMBER VERY CLEARLY

THAT HE WAS ENCOURAGING
PEOPLE LIKE PETER COOK

TO PURSUE THAT.

HE SAID, "WHAT YOU'RE DOING
ACTUALLY IS POETRY.

THEY ARE POEMS."

AND IT SEEMED LIKE THERE WAS
A LOT OF CROSS-FERTILIZATION

BETWEEN THE DEAF COMMUNITY
AND JIM.

HE WAS TRYING TO ENCOURAGE
THIS NEW IDEA OF ASL POETRY

TO TAKE FLIGHT, AND HE
WAS LEARNING MORE ABOUT

WHAT THE DEAF PEOPLE WERE
AND WHAT ASL POETRY WOULD BE,

AND HE BASICALLY LIT THE MATCH

THAT SPARKED THE FIRE
THAT TOOK OFF

AFTER THAT TIME WITH ASL POETRY.

THERE WERE LOTS
OF DIFFERENT VENUES.

SOME WERE AT WRITERS & BOOKS,

AND THERE WAS JAZZBERRY'S,

WHICH WAS A RESTAURANT DOWNTOWN.

THEY HAD A STAGE.

THEY HAD A SERIES.

I THINK IT WAS ONCE A MONTH.

FRIDAY NIGHTS OR
SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

AND THEY WOULD HAVE A HEARING
AND A DEAF POET,

BOTH OF THEM PERFORMING IN TURN,

AND SO, THERE WOULD BE
INTERPRETERS PROVIDING

ACCESS FOR BOTH AUDIENCES THERE.

THERE WAS ANOTHER RESTAURANT
IN TOWN AT THE TIME

CALLED SNAKE SISTERS.

THEY HAD PERFORMANCES ALSO.

SO, JAZZBERRY'S,
SNAKE SISTERS, WRITERS & BOOKS.

I THINK THOSE WERE
THE 3 PRIMARY VENUES

THAT JIM WAS DOING
ORGANIZATION FOR

TO MAKE SURE THERE WERE
POETRY SERIES OCCURRING.

WELL, IT WAS A REALLY
EXCITING TIME

IN TERMS OF TRANSLATING
POETRY, BECAUSE,

YES, I DID WORK BY MYSELF,
BUT I ALSO WORKED WITH FRIENDS.

WORKED A LOT WITH SUSAN CHAPEL.

I'VE WORKED WITH YOU
ALSO, MIRIAM.

YOU GAVE ME ADVICE SOMETIMES.

AND ALSO WITH A LOT
OF DEAF PEOPLE,

LIKE DEBBIE AND PETER COOK.

AND THE WAY THAT WOULD GO WAS

I WOULD HAVE THE POEM
ON THE PAPER.

I WOULD READ IT OVER.

I WOULD THINK REALLY HARD ABOUT
WHAT IT WAS TRYING TO SAY,

TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW
I MIGHT TRANSLATE THIS,

HOW I WOULD GIVE
A COMMENSURATE RENDITION

TO BE ABLE TO SHOW
THE TRUE INTENT.

SO, I WOULD SHOW DEBBIE MY WORK

AND I'D SAY, "DO YOU
THINK THIS IS CLEAR?

DO YOU THINK IT WORKS?"

AND I REALLY WANTED TO HAVE
EQUIVALENCE WITH THE POET.

SO, I WOULD WORK WITH
LOTS OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

DO YOU MEAN DURING
THE TRANSLATION PROCESS,

DID I FEEL THAT IT WAS CLEAR

OR THAT I COULD GO AHEAD
WITH WHAT I WAS DOING?

I--I DIDN'T FEEL NOT ONLY
THAT I COULD ASK OTHER PEOPLE.

I FELT LIKE I HAD
TO ASK OTHER PEOPLE.

I NEEDED A LOT
OF HELP WITH THIS.

I HAD THE POET'S WORK,
AND SOMETIMES IF THE POEM

WAS VERY DENSE,
VERY CHALLENGING,

I UNDERSTOOD
THE ENGLISH FINE, BUT

HOW WAS I GONNA
RENDER THIS IN ASL

TO GIVE
THE COMMENSURATE MEANING?

HOW WAS I GOING TO BE
ABLE TO PROVIDE

THE SAME IMAGES
AND THE SAME RESONANCE

TO A DEAF AUDIENCE?

SO, I COULDN'T WORK ALONE.
I DIDN'T FEEL THAT WAS
AN OPTION.

THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE--
WELL, PROBABLY FOR
THE HEARING POETS

BUT ALSO SOME INTERPRETERS
WHO LOOKED ASKANCE AT THIS.

THEY LOOKED AT OUR WORK,
THE GROUP OF US

THAT WAS UNDERTAKING THIS KIND
OF EFFORT AT THE TIME,

AND WE THOUGHT IT WAS
NEW AND EXCITING.

LET'S GIVE IT A GO.
LET'S TRY.

WE'LL JUST GIVE IT OUR BEST SHOT

AND SEE HOW IT FLOWS, YOU KNOW.

WE TALKED TO THE HEARING POETS,
THE DEAF POETS.

WE'RE WORKING WITH ALL OF THEM.

WE WERE PART OF THIS WONDERFUL
HURRICANE OF EFFORT,

BUT THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE,
ESPECIALLY INTERPRETERS,

WHO WERE SAYING,
"WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING?"

UM, "YOU DON'T KNOW ASL POETRY.

"YOU DON'T KNOW
WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

"YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT
THE RIGHT FORM IS

"AND YOU DON'T HAVE A TEMPLATE
OF HOW TO DO THIS.

"YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT ASL
TRANSLATION REALLY LOOKS LIKE

"IN TERMS OF POETRY.

"IT'S SUCH AN ELEVATED
USAGE OF THE LANGUAGE

"AND ENGLISH IS
ELEVATED THAT WAY

"AND YOU DON'T EVEN
KNOW HOW ASL

COULD BE RENDERED THAT WAY."

SO, WE FELT LIKE, YES,
BUT IF WE DON'T TRY IT,

THEN WE'LL NEVER KNOW
WHAT HAPPENS

OR HOW TO GO ABOUT IT.

SO, THE QUESTION IS,
HOW DO WE DO A NEW THING?

SOMEBODY ALWAYS HAS TO START
THIS NEW ENTERPRISE

AND TAKE BABY STEPS SOMETIMES,

MAKE MISTAKES,
BE A LITTLE AWKWARD,

AND LATER ON, IT SMOOTHES OUT.

THAT'S THE HOPE, ANYWAY.

I FEEL SO LUCKY THAT
I WAS PART OF THAT,

THAT WE DID DO THAT, BECAUSE

THOSE WERE FOUNDATIONAL YEARS.

I FEEL LIKE THE HEARING POETS
AND THE DEAF POETS AT THE TIME

WERE REALLY WORKING TOGETHER.

THEY WERE INFLUENCING
EACH OTHER.

AND I THINK THAT
THAT WAS WHAT WAS GOING ON

IN OUR GROUP CALLED
BRIDGE OF..., ALSO.

WE HAD HEARING AND DEAF PEOPLE
WORKING TOGETHER

IN A CONSOLIDATED GROUP.

OH, I THINK IF WE TALK ABOUT
THAT LATER, IT'D BE BETTER.

FIRST, I THINK I'D LIKE TO TALK
ABOUT THE TRANSLATION PROCESS

AND THEN WE'LL GET TO
THE OTHER STUFF LATER.

YEAH. THAT SOUNDS GOOD.

SO, MY PROCESS FOR INTERPRETING
WOULD REALLY DEPEND A LOT ON

WHO I WAS WORKING WITH.

JIM, OF COURSE--WELL,
I LIVED WITH HIM,

SO, I SAW HIM
EVERY DAY, HA HA!,

SO, I COULD ASK HIM A LOT
OF QUESTIONS ABOUT IT.

BUT THAT GETS STICKY SOMETIMES,

BECAUSE IF I ASKED A POET
WHAT THEY MEAN,

THEY'VE WORKED SO HARD
TO WRITE THIS POEM,

THEY'VE REALLY CRAFTED IT
AND PICKED SPECIFIC WORDS

FOR SPECIFIC INTENTIONS.

AND IF I SAID,
"WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?"

HE'D SAY, "WELL,
THE MEANING'S RIGHT THERE."

IT'S ALREADY THERE, OF COURSE.
IT'S OBVIOUS.

SO, THAT GETS TRICKY SOMETIMES.

BUT IT'S VERY IMPORTANT
IN THE TRANSLATION PROCESS

TO KNOW THAT YOU'VE GOT
THE RIGHT IDEA IN YOUR MIND.

YOU'D FULLY UNDERSTAND
IF YOU ATTEMPT

TO TRANSLATE IT
INTO ANOTHER LANGUAGE.

I ALSO QUITE OFTEN WORKED
WITH ANOTHER HEARING POET

NAMED TODD BEERS.

AND THAT WAS
A VERY COOL PROCESS,

BECAUSE TODD WAS
ALSO A PAINTER,

AND HIS POEMS ALMOST
LOOKED OR FELT LIKE

SMALL, MINIATURE PAINTINGS.

YOU KNOW, JUST LIKE
MINIATURE PAINTINGS,

BUT IN WORDS ON PAPER.

SO, I WOULD READ THEM
AND I FELT LIKE, THAT'S GREAT,

BECAUSE I WOULD
READ THIS AND SEE

A PICTURE IN
MY MIND IMMEDIATELY,

BECAUSE IT WAS SO MUCH
LIKE A PAINTING.

AND IT SEEMED
A LITTLE BIT EASIER

TO BE ABLE TO
RENDER THAT IN ASL.

SO, TODD WOULD SOMETIMES
SIT DOWN WITH ME.

WE WOULD MEET TOGETHER,
AND HE WOULD EVEN JUST

READ HIS POETRY FOR ME SO THAT

I COULD WORK ON THE TIMING.

HE WOULD MAKE AUDIO RECORDINGS
ONCE IN A WHILE

AND THEN HE WOULD
GIVE ME THE WHOLE SET,

AND THEN I COULD TAKE THEM
HOME AND WORK ON IT.

SO, FIRST I WOULD TRANSLATE,
AND THEN I WOULD

HAVE TO PRACTICE
THE TIMING TO MAKE SURE

THAT I WOULD START AND END

AT THE APPROPRIATE TIMES
FOR WHEN HE STARTED AND ENDED.

I WOULD WORK WITH OTHER POETS,
AND THE TIMING WAS TRICKY.

IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT
IN YOUR WORK TO ADDRESS THAT.

BECAUSE SOMETIMES,
A POEM WILL BE REALLY LONG,

JUST VERSES AND VERSES
AND VERSES,

BUT THE POINT OF IT
WILL BE AT THE VERY END.

SO, SOMETIMES, I WOULD
HAVE TO REORDER THE POEM

AND TAKE THINGS THAT OCCURRED
IN THE END IN THE WRITTEN FORM

AND MOVE THEM UP
TO THE BEGINNING,

WHICH REQUIRED A LOT
OF MEMORIZATION.

SO, FIRST I WOULD
DO THE TRANSLATION,

AND THEN I WOULD HAVE
TO MEMORIZE AND PRACTICE

TO MAKE SURE THAT THE TIMING FIT

THE SPOKEN RENDITION OF IT.

IF A PERSON IS RECITING
THEIR POETRY,

WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO EXPRESS

HAS TO SOMEHOW
LINE UP WITH THE SIGNS,

BUT IF THE POINT COMES AT THE
END OF THEIR SPOKEN PERFORMANCE

AND I'VE FRONT-LOADED AT
THE BEGINNING, IT'S VERY TRICKY.

BUT WHEN I LOOK BACK AT THAT,
WOW, WHAT A CHALLENGE.

BUT SO MUCH FUN.

IT WAS SUCH AN AMAZING TIME.

IT WAS VERY RICH.

OUR LIVES WERE ALL ABOUT
LEARNING THIS LANGUAGE,

AND THIS EXPERIENCE OF
TRANSLATING, REALLY, I THINK,

HELPED OUR LANGUAGE ABILITIES
IN ASL

AS WE WERE GROWING
IN THAT ENDEAVOR.

YES, I WOULD FEEL
THAT IT DEFINITELY HAD

A POSITIVE IMPACT
ON MY INTERPRETING, TOO,

BECAUSE JUST WORKING
WITH THE LANGUAGE
AND TRANSLATION CAPABILITY

WOULD FORCE US TO LOOK
AT THE FORM OF ENGLISH

AND THEN TAKE OFF THAT FORM

AND SUPERIMPOSE THE FORM OF ASL

THAT TRIED TO PRESERVE
AND MAINTAIN THE MEANING.

WE WOULD ALWAYS TRY
TO IMAGINE, LIKE,

HOW WOULD A DEAF PERSON
EXPRESS THIS IDEA,

AND KEEP THAT IN MIND AS WE WERE
TRANSLATING THE ENGLISH POETRY.

SO, I USED QUITE OFTEN
DEBBIE AND PETER

TO ASK ABOUT THEIR OPINION
OF WHAT I WAS DOING.

DID IT WORK?
DID IT NOT WORK?

ALSO, DOWN IN THE CELLAR, PEOPLE
WHO WERE PERFORMING DOWN THERE,

I WOULD ASK FOLKS, "IS THIS
CLEAR? IS IT NOT CLEAR?"

AND GET A LOT OF
INPUT FROM THEM.

I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY HOW I
BEGAN INTERPRETING FOR DEBBIE.

I MET HER KIND OF EARLY ON.

SHE WASN'T LIVING IN ROCHESTER
AT THE TIME.

SHE WAS LIVING IN CLEVELAND
AND PERFORMING

WITH THE FAIRMOUNT THEATRE
OF THE DEAF.

SO, THAT TROUPE CAME TO GIVE
A PERFORMANCE ON CAMPUS,

AND WHEN THEY WERE DONE,
AFTERWARDS, SOMEBODY

HAD A PARTY SOMEPLACE,
AND I WENT TO THAT PARTY,

AND I MET HER IN PERSON.

AND LATER, I THINK IN
THE SEMESTER OR QUARTER SYSTEM,

SHE CAME TO STUDY, I THINK,
GRAPHIC DESIGN,

AND THEN GOT HER
BACHELOR'S IN THAT.

SO, I WOULD SEE HER
IN THE CAFETERIA.

ONE TIME, I SAID, "HEY, I THINK

I MET YOU BEFORE
AT THAT PARTY,"

AND THEN FROM THEN ON,
WE WERE FRIENDS.

AND WE HAD SOMETHING THAT,
YOU KNOW, FRIENDS HAVE.

SOMETIMES YOU MEET
A PERSON, YOU THINK,

"OH, THAT PERSON'S
GONNA BE MY FRIEND.

I JUST KNOW
WE WILL BE FRIENDS."

AND THAT'S WHAT OCCURRED
WHEN WE MET EACH OTHER.

DEBBIE HAD A LOT OF, UH, SKILLS.
SHE WAS A CLOWN, A STORYTELLER,

AND THEN SHE ADDED MORE THINGS
TO HER REPERTOIRE,

POETRY BEING ONE OF THEM.

AND JIM WAS VERY
ENCOURAGING TO HER.

HE WAS SAYING,
"LOOK AT YOUR OWN WORK

AS IF IT WERE POETRY,"
BECAUSE IT IS.

IT REALLY IS A POEM, AND SHE
DID ACCEPT THAT FRAMING OF IT

AND BECAME EVEN MORE CREATIVE
AS TIME WENT ON.

SO, AT THAT TIME, IT WAS DEBBIE
AND PETER AND JIM AND I.

WE WERE ALL FRIENDS.

BUT LOOKING BACK,
TRYING TO REMEMBER

THE FIRST TIME I ACTUALLY
VOICED FOR HER, I DON'T KNOW,

BECAUSE IN MY MIND,
I'VE ALWAYS VOICED FOR DEBBIE.
HA HA!

BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY
THE FIRST TIME THAT STARTED.

I THINK THAT--YEAH.
I THINK IT MIGHT BE THAT.

IT WAS EITHER--I THINK
THE FIRST TIME--

MAYBE IT WAS IN THE CELLAR.

THE DEAF POETRY SERIES
THAT WAS OCCURRING THERE.

THERE WERE DEAF POETS WHO WOULD
COME TO THE CELLAR BAR

AND THEY WOULD--WAIT A MINUTE.

I WANT TO START OVER.
HA HA!

LET'S START AGAIN.
OK. HEH.

OH, YOU MEAN DURING
THE PERFORMANCES

DURING THAT--JUST LAST MINUTE,

SOMEBODY WOULD VOICE SOMETHING?

YEAH, I DID GO TO THE CELLAR.

I WAS SOMEWHAT INVOLVED
WITH THAT SERIES.

I WENT AS A PARTICIPANT
TO WATCH, OF COURSE.

AH, I WASN'T LIVING WITH JIM
YET AT THE TIME.

WE WERE FRIENDS,
AND I HELPED HIM...

WELL, YOU KNOW,
SORT OF GET IT GOING,

DO SOME PR, PUT UP
THE FLIERS AND POSTERS,

THINGS LIKE THAT,
TO GET AN AUDIENCE.

AND THAT MAY BE
THE FIRST TIME THAT I

INTERPRETED FOR DEBBIE
IN THE CELLAR.

IT'S POSSIBLE.
I CAN'T REALLY REMEMBER.

BUT WE DID THAT,
THAT CELLAR SERIES,

AND THEN AROUND THE SAME TIME,

THERE WAS AN RIT COMMUNITY
FOR NUCLEAR AWARENESS GROUP,

AND OFTEN, THEY WOULD
HAVE THESE COFFEEHOUSE

PERFORMANCE HOURS
FROM TIME TO TIME.

THEY WOULD HAVE
JUGGLERS PERFORMING,

HEARING POETS, AND DEAF POETS.

EVERYTHING WAS VOICE-INTERPRETED

OR SIGN-INTERPRETED
AT THE TIME ON CAMPUS, SO,

DEBBIE DID PERFORM
AT THOSE EVENTS ALSO,

AND JIM WOULD PERFORM.

THERE'D BE JUGGLERS, MUSICIANS,
ALL SORTS OF ACTS,

AND I WOULD END UP
INTERPRETING FOR THAT.

HEARING OR DEAF, WHATEVER.
SO, I DID DO THAT, SO,

I WAS INTERPRETING
IN THAT PARTICULAR SITUATION.

I MAY HAVE, AT ONE TIME
OR ANOTHER,

VOICED FOR DEBBIE DURING
ONE OF THOSE EVENTS.

YES, I WAS THERE.
IT WAS INCREDIBLE. REALLY.

WELL...YOU GAVE ME THAT DVD,
THE SAMPLER, AND I WATCHED IT,

AND I RECALLED,
OH, THAT'S RIGHT.

IT WAS INCREDIBLE BECAUSE
THAT WAS MY CLASSROOM.

I WAS IN THE INTERPRETER
TRAINING PROGRAM,

AND THAT'S THE CLASSROOM
WE MET IN.

THAT WAS THE VERY ROOM,
AND ALLEN GINSBERG

WAS SITTING
RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME.

THERE WE ARE AT OUR DESKS, AND

JUST SITTING RIGHT THERE,
FRONT OF THERE.

WE WERE SO FORTUNATE,

BECAUSE HERE WE WERE HAVING THIS

PERSONAL, FACE-TO-FACE MEETING

WITH ALLEN GINSBERG.

IT WAS INCREDIBLE.

I ALSO REMEMBER THAT I FELT, UM,

A LITTLE TREPIDATION, BECAUSE

ALLEN GINSBERG SITTING
RIGHT THERE, AND, OF COURSE,

THE HEARING WORLD
LOOKS UP TO HIM.

HE'S THIS AMAZING, LAUDED POET.

BUT HERE IN OUR AUDIENCE,
WE ALSO HAD

SOME AMAZING LUMINARIES
FROM THE DEAF WORLD.

PATRICK GRAYBILL
WAS SITTING THERE,

AND I WAS WONDERING, OK,
WE KNOW IN THE HEARING WORLD

THAT ALLEN GINSBERG
IS RESPECTED,

BUT WE HAD THIS INCREDIBLE
DEAF PERFORMER HERE

WHO DOES THE MOST AMAZING,
BEAUTIFUL WORK,

AND IN HIS COMMUNITY,
IN HIS WORLD,

HE IS LOOKED UP TO
IN THE SAME CAPACITY

THAT ALLEN GINSBERG IS,
AND SO, I FELT

THAT I WANTED PEOPLE TO SEE
IN THE HEARING WORLD

HOW THAT EQUIVALENCE
COULD BE MADE,

AND I KNEW THAT THE INTERPRETING
PROCESS WOULD BE

PART OF THAT, SO,
I WAS CONCERNED

ABOUT THE EFFECTIVENESS
OF THE COMMUNICATION,

ABOUT WHETHER
THESE TWO LUMINARIES

WOULD BE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE
EACH OTHER'S GREATNESS,

AND, OF COURSE,
IT DID INDEED HAPPEN.

AND THE DVD HELPED GET MY MEMORY
GOING A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT,

ESPECIALLY IN TERMS OF
THE INTERPRETATION.

ALLEN GINSBERG READ FROM "HOWL."
HA! LET'S START AGAIN.

HA HA!
ALLEN GINSBERG

READ FROM HIS POEM "HOWL,"

AND KIP WEBSTER
WAS INTERPRETING IT,

AND I REMEMBER WHEN
HE GOT TO THE PART,

"THE HYDROGEN JUKEBOX,"

KIP FINGERSPELLED IT,

AND PATRICK GRAYBILL
ASKED THE QUESTION OF ALLEN,

"WHY DID YOU PICK
THOSE TWO WORDS?"

AND GINSBERG EXPLAINED
HIS REASONING,

AND THEN ASKED, "DO YOU FEEL
THAT THERE COULD BE

"AN EQUIVALENT TRANSLATION
OR WOULD IT BECOME, QUOTE,

DEAD IN TRANSLATION IF YOU TRIED
TO PUT IT IN ASL?"

AND THEN PATRICK GRAYBILL SAID,
"DO YOU MIND IF I GIVE IT A GO?"

AND HE PRODUCED THIS INCREDIBLE
TRANSLATION ON THE SPOT.

IT WAS JUST SO POWERFUL.
THAT MOMENT WAS AMAZING.

OH, I--I JUST GOT GOOSEBUMPS.

I THOUGHT, "WOW,
LOOK WHAT HE JUST DID."

IT WAS JUST
AN INCREDIBLE TRANSLATION

THAT HE RENDERED RIGHT THERE.

THOSE WORDS,
"HYDROGEN JUKEBOX,"

JUST THOSE TWO WORDS,
BECAME A FULL ASL POEM

THAT PATRICK GRAYBILL
HAD JUST PERFORMED,

AND I THOUGHT,
"WOW, THAT IS SO COOL.

WE HAVE SOMETHING VERY EXCITING
HAPPENING HERE."

YES, I REALLY FELT THAT.

I--THAT "WOW" MOMENT
WAS RIGHT THERE.
HA HA!

AND WHEN THAT OCCURRED,
THAT MOMENT,

I WAS SO RELIEVED, BECAUSE

ALLEN LOOKED AND SAID
WHAT HE SAID TO PATRICK,

AND PATRICK UNDERSTOOD WHAT
ALLEN WAS TRYING TO SAY,

AND I FELT, OK,
THE COMMUNICATION

DID INDEED SUCCEED,
AND THE INTERPRETER PART OF ME

WAS VERY RELIEVED
AND FELT, WHEW, GOOD.
HA HA!

BECAUSE I'D BEEN INVOLVED
IN SOME TRANSLATION

AND I--I KNEW
THAT IT COULD WORK,

AND INDEED, IT DID WORK.

SOME PEOPLE SAY IT CAN'T.
THIS COULD NEVER OCCUR.

BUT IT REALLY DID SUCCEED.

AND NO, I NEVER DID
CREATE MY OWN POETRY.

MY INTRODUCTION TO POETRY,

SEPARATE THAN STUDY
IN THE CLASSROOM,

WAS FOR JIM, BECAUSE,
WELL, JIM...

HIS...HIS PARTICULAR
STYLE OF POETRY

AND WHO HE IS AS A POET,
WHAT HE LIKES,

IS VERY MUCH INFORMED
BY THE BEAT GENERATION.

AND SO, QUITE OFTEN,
IN HIS OWN WORK,

HE'LL BE LOOKING AT EVERYDAY,
SORT OF PROSAIC THINGS

AND FOCUSING
ON THE IMAGE OF IT.

WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS
HAS A FAMOUS QUOTE.

I BELIEVE IT'S A QUOTE
ATTRIBUTED TO HIM.

"NO IDEAS BUT IN THINGS,"

AND I TAKE THIS TO MEAN THAT

IF YOU'RE DESCRIBING
WHAT YOU SEE,

THEN YOU'RE ALSO
SHOWING ITS ESSENCE

AND THAT THERE'S SOMETHING
MORE PROFOUND IN THE EVERYDAY.

WHAT PRESENTS ITSELF TO US,
IN ITS IMAGE OR ICONIC FORM,

REPRESENTS SOMETHING
MUCH MORE PROFOUND

ABOUT THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE
IN AND OF ITSELF.

THAT'S--THAT'S MY INTERPRETATION
OF THAT QUOTE.

AND THAT'S WHAT JIM
WAS TRYING TO LOOK FOR

IN ASL POETRY,
AND WHAT HE INDEED SAW

EVIDENCED IN ASL POETRY.

THOSE IMAGES, THAT ICONICITY.

SO, THAT KIND OF POETRY,
IF IT'S WRITTEN IN ENGLISH,

SEEMS TO BE
SOMETHING THAT CAN BE

MORE EASILY RENDERED IN ASL.

WELL, THAT'S INTERESTING WHAT
YOU WERE SAYING ABOUT, UM...

SOMETIMES YOU CAN PROVIDE
IMAGES TO PEOPLE

AND YOU DON'T FULLY
UNDERSTAND IT,

BUT WHAT YOU'RE LEFT WITH
IS THE FEELING OF IT.

AND SO, I FEEL THAT POETRY
IS ACTUALLY BEYOND THE WORDS

THAT ARE USED TO COMMUNICATE IT,
IN A SENSE.

THE MEANING, ACTUALLY, IS BEYOND
THE FORM, BEYOND THE WORDS,

AND IT'S FUNNY, BECAUSE
WE WORK WITH THE WORDS

AND THE WORDS ARE VERY STRONG.

A POET WORKS REALLY CAREFULLY
TO CRAFT AND SELECT

THE CORRECT WORDS
TO BRING FORTH THAT IMAGE,

BUT THE RESONANCE IS BEYOND

WHAT YOU'RE ACTUALLY RECEIVING.

SO, YOU SAY YOU WERE AT
A POETRY READING OR WHATEVER

OR YOU INTERPRETED IT
AND YOU DIDN'T FULLY
UNDERSTAND IT,

BUT YOU COULD FEEL
THE MEANING VISCERALLY,

EVEN THOUGH YOU
DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT.

I THINK THE MEANING
ITSELF IS NOT

IN THE COGNITIVE PART
OF YOUR MIND.

IT'S MORE WITHIN YOUR HEART

AND HOW IT HITS YOU THERE.

YOU UNDERSTAND IT
WITH YOUR HEART,

NOT NECESSARILY YOUR MIND,

AND SO, I THINK A POEM,
WHICH BRINGS FORTH A PICTURE

THAT SOMEHOW
RESONATES WITHIN YOU,

UH, BECAUSE IT TOUCHES
THE HUMAN CONDITION.

I THINK THAT VOICING
FOR DEBBIE'S POETRY

WAS QUITE DIFFERENT FOR ME.

IF I HAD AN ENGLISH POEM,

I HAD TO DO A FULL TRANSLATION

TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY,

AND I WANTED THE DEAF PEOPLE
TO UNDERSTAND IT

AS CLEAR AS THEY COULD.

NOW, OF COURSE,
THEY'RE ACTUALLY SEEING

THE HEARING POET
AT THE SAME TIME,

AND THEY KNOW WHAT
IT LOOKS LIKE ON ME

AND THEY'RE ALSO HEARING IT.

BUT VOICING FOR DEBBIE,

I WOULD WRITE DOWN THE WORDS,

AND IT WOULDN'T NECESSARILY
LOOK LIKE A POEM.

I MEAN, SOMETIMES WHAT
I HAD WRITTEN ON THE PAGE

WOULD LOOK LIKE A POEM, BUT...

MY FEELING WAS THAT
THE AUDIENCE,

THE HEARING AUDIENCE MEMBERS,

CAN ALSO SEE THE IMAGES
THAT DEBBIE'S PUTTING FORTH.

SO, THEY'RE WATCHING SOMEBODY
PERFORM--DEBBIE PERFORM IN ASL,

AND THEY'RE HEARING MY VOICE
AT THE SAME TIME

AS SORT OF A SUPPORT
FOR WHAT THEY'RE SEEING.

SO, THEY'RE GETTING DOUBLE
THE AMOUNT OF INFORMATION.

THEY'RE HEARING MY WORDS
THROUGH THEIR EARS,

THEY'RE TAKING IN HER IMAGES
THROUGH THEIR EYES,

AND THEY'RE GETTING
BOTH CHANNELS.

YEAH, WE--WE AS INTERPRETERS
HAD TO BE CAREFUL,

BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ASSUME
THAT JUST BECAUSE

WE KNOW SIGN LANGUAGE,
WE CAN ANTICIPATE

WHAT HEARING AUDIENCES
WILL BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND

AND WHAT THEY WON'T.

IT'S VERY HARD TO KNOW THAT.

SOME THINGS ARE OBVIOUS,
LIKE IN DEBBIE'S POEM

"MISSING CHILDREN."

THERE'S A PART
WHERE WE'RE SHOWING

A BOY PLANTING SEEDS
AND THE FATHER

ENCOURAGING HIM
TO KEEP PLANTING,

AND THERE'S
A [INDISTINCT] BETWEEN

THE FATHER'S CHARACTER
AND THE SON'S CHARACTER.

AND I FEEL THAT
MOST HEARING PEOPLE

WOULD SEE THAT MIMING
OR THE ROLE SHIFT

OF A FATHER AND A SON
AND THEY DON'T NEED

WORDS DESCRIBING EVERYTHING
ABOUT THAT ACTION.

THEY'D BE ABLE
TO FIGURE IT OUT.

THEY CAN SEE WHAT THE EXPRESSION
OF THE FATHER WOULD LOOK LIKE

AND WHAT THE SON
WOULD LOOK LIKE.

SO, IN MY VOICING, I JUST SAID,

"THE FATHER AND HIS SON.

THE FATHER AND HIS SON."

I JUST SAID THAT.

KEPT IT SIMPLE.

NO, I WOULD COME UP
WITH ALL THE WORDS.

DEBBIE NEVER CONTRIBUTED
THE WORDS.

MAYBE ONCE OR TWICE,
BUT NOT OFTEN.

WHAT WOULD TEND TO HAPPEN
IS THAT I WOULD

VIDEO HER DOING HER PERFORMANCE

AND THEN I WOULD WATCH IT
OVER AND OVER AGAIN,

AND I WOULD TRY TO FIGURE OUT
WHAT MIGHT BE A GOOD MATCH

IN TERMS OF WHAT I WOULD SAY.

I'D DO MY OWN WORK AND THEN
I WOULD ASK OTHER FRIENDS

TO WATCH IT WITH ME.

I'D SAY, "OH, THIS PART'S
GIVING ME A HARD TIME"

OR "WHAT DO YOU THINK?
DOES THIS SOUND OK?"

I WORK WITH YOU SOMETIMES
THAT WAY, MIRIAM,

AND I WORK WITH SUSAN ALSO.

SOMETIMES JIM WOULD HELP ME.

NOT MUCH, BUT ONCE IN A WHILE

I WOULD ASK HIS OPINION.

KENNY, TOO, YES.

YEAH, DEFINITELY KENNY.

WE WORKED TOGETHER QUITE OFTEN.

AND I THINK THAT WE INFLUENCED
EACH OTHER'S WORK.

IN THE BEGINNING,
I USED TOO MANY WORDS,

AND KENNY DIDN'T USE ENOUGH,

BUT I THINK OVER TIME,
WE EVENED OUT TO

WHERE WE WERE VOICING ABOUT

THE SAME AMOUNT AS EACH OTHER.

RIGHT.

WE BOTH WERE TRYING
TO FIND OUR WAY,

WHAT THE BEST FIT WOULD BE.

REALLY, UM...

HONESTLY, IN OUR GROUP--

I MEAN, WE WERE THE ONLY PEOPLE
WHO WERE DOING THIS, SO,

WE WERE JUST FLYING BY
THE SEAT OF OUR PANTS

AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT
HOW TO DO IT RIGHT.

WE DID IT THROUGH
EXPERIENCE, REALLY.

WE DID TRIAL AND ERROR.

WE'D PERFORM.
WE'D GATHER SOME FEEDBACK.

WE WOULD INCORPORATE
THAT FEEDBACK

AND MAKE MODIFICATIONS
ACCORDING TO WHAT

PEOPLE LIKED AND DIDN'T LIKE.

YUP. SOMETIMES
I WOULD SHOW DEBBIE.

I THINK SHE WAS A LITTLE WORRIED
IN THE BEGINNING

ABOUT WHETHER I WAS
REPRESENTING HER CORRECTLY,

BUT AS TIME WENT ON AND WE WERE
HAVING MORE SUCCESS

AND MORE POSITIVE FEEDBACK,

SHE JUST TRUSTED ME.

AND SHE JUST SAID, "GO FOR IT."
HA HA!

"YOU SEEM TO BE DOING FINE.
PEOPLE ARE RESPONDING WELL."

SO, SHE JUST SAID, "GO FOR IT."

I THINK IT WAS
JUST THE RIGHT TIME,

THE RIGHT PLACE,
THE RIGHT PEOPLE.

RIGHT, TO TRY TO MATCH HER.
MM-HMM.

RIGHT.

I DID. MM-HMM.

YEAH, IT WAS FUN.

DOES SHE LIVE IN NEW YORK CITY?

NICE.

SO, WHEN I WAS AN INTERPRETER,

THERE WAS A CLASS
THAT STEFFA WAS TEACHING

THAT WAS CALLED "SIGN DANCE."

I THINK THAT'S WHAT IT WAS.

THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN
ANOTHER TEACHER.

I'M PRETTY SURE IT WAS STEFFA.

SHE WOULD USE SIGNS
ALONG WITH THE DANCE MOVEMENT,

AND I TOOK THAT CLASS.

AND I DON'T KNOW,
I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER

IF DEBBIE WAS IN THAT CLASS.

SHE MIGHT HAVE BEEN.

IT WAS REALLY FUN.

PLUS, WE DID SOME IMPROV,
SOME IMPROVISATIONAL WORK,

AND SOME TRUST KINDS
OF DANCE MOVEMENTS.

LATER ON, STEFFA AND DAVID

HAD A STUDIO,

IT WAS A DANCE STUDIO,

AND IT WAS LOCATED
RIGHT IN DOWNTOWN ROCHESTER.

SO, THEY WOULD HAVE THESE
REGULAR IMPROV GROUPS.

I WAS IN IT.
SUSAN CHAPEL.

KENNY. DEBBIE.
PETER COOK.

JIM. STEFFA. DAVID.

I THINK SOMETIMES OTHER PEOPLE
MAY HAVE JOINED,

BUT THIS WAS OUR CORE GROUP

THAT TENDED TO SHOW UP.

VERY, VERY POWERFUL TIME.

BECAUSE IT WASN'T REALLY
NECESSARILY ABOUT

COMMUNICATION WITH LANGUAGE.

IT WAS ABOUT COMMUNICATION
THROUGH YOUR BODY.

VERY CREATIVE.

EXTREMELY CREATIVE.

AND...IT ALSO FELT
THERAPEUTIC AT TIMES.

ALL OF US WORKING TOGETHER

AND ALL OF US HAVING OUR
DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIPS

AND CONNECTING TOGETHER.

AND I THINK IT ALSO
SPAWNED SOME IDEAS FOR

FUTURE POEMS, BOTH FOR
THE HEARING PEOPLE IN THE GROUP

AND THE DEAF PEOPLE
IN THE GROUP.

I THINK THAT EXPERIENCE
BROUGHT US CLOSER TOGETHER

AND HELPED US CREATE MORE
AS A GROUP TOGETHER.

NOTHING. NOTHING IS DOCUMENTED
FROM THAT TIME.

JUST OUR MINDS,
JUST OUR FEEBLE MINDS.

HA HA HA!
AND OUR FAILING MEMORIES.

BUT THAT WAS
A STRONG IMPACT ON ME.

I REMEMBER, AH, SOME SPECIFIC
INSTANCES FROM THAT TIME

AND IT WAS VERY POWERFUL FOR ME.

ONE WAY IT INFLUENCED ME WAS

TO BECOME MORE COMFORTABLE
WITH MY BODY.

AND IT MADE ME
A BETTER INTERPRETER,

BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE
AN INTERPRETER,

YOU'RE WEARING THIS LANGUAGE
ON YOUR BODY, SO,

OF COURSE, IT WOULD HELP
IN THAT PARTICULAR WAY.

HOW DID BRIDGE OF... COME ABOUT?

WELL, LET'S SEE.
AT THAT TIME...

WE IN OUR GROUP
FELT THAT WE WANTED

TO ACCOMPLISH TWO THINGS.

WE WANTED TO SHOW OUR WORK
TO THE WORLD,

TO THE GRANDER
WORLD STAGE AND AUDIENCE,

AND ALSO, WE WANTED TO HAVE
SOME GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT,

AND WE WONDERED IF THERE
WAS A WAY THAT WE COULD

ACTUALLY MAKE A LIVING
FROM SHOWING OUR WORK.

AND I CAN REMEMBER
IN OUR APARTMENT

THAT WAS ON ARYAN CRESCENT DRIVE
IN ROCHESTER,

REALLY SMALL,
CUTE, LITTLE APARTMENT.

WE HAD THIS LITTLE LIVING ROOM
AND WE WERE ALL SITTING

ON A CUSHION ON THE FLOOR
FACING EACH OTHER

AND COMING UP WITH IDEAS
AND TALKING ABOUT THIS IDEA.

SHOULD WE TRY IT?
I REMEMBER.

FINALLY, WE ALL JUST SAID,
"LET'S DO IT."

WE MADE A BROCHURE
TO ADVERTISE THE GROUP

AND WE TRIED TO GET SOME GIGS.

AND WE DID.
IT WAS A VERY EXCITING TIME.

IT WAS REALLY FUN,
THE IDEA OF BRIDGE OF...

SOMETIMES, DEBBIE WOULD READ
A POEM THAT JIM HAD WRITTEN

AND THEN SHE WOULD TRANSLATE IT
AND PERFORM IT IN SIGN

WHILE HE WAS READING IT.

SO, YOU WOULD HAVE
A HEARING POET

BEING TRANSLATED AND INTERPRETED
BY A DEAF PERSON.

SOMETIMES, YOU'D HAVE
TWO DEAF POETS

BUT YOU'D HAVE VOICES,
VOICE INTERPRETERS.

SO, YOU'D HAVE
DEAF POETRY TRANSLATED

BY A HEARING POET.

SO, LOTS OF
DIFFERENT COMBINATIONS

WITHIN THAT GROUP.

REALLY FUN.

AND THE NAME CAME ABOUT.

WELL, PARTIALLY, IT WAS A JOKE.

PREPOSITIONS ARE VERY DIFFICULT.

"IN," "ON," "TO," "OVER."

YOU KNOW, THEY'RE
VERY TOUGH FOR PEOPLE

WHO ARE LEARNING
A SECOND LANGUAGE.

WHEN SOMEONE'S STUDYING ENGLISH
AS A SECOND LANGUAGE,

PREPOSITIONS ARE
REALLY DIFFICULT.

WHEN SHOULD IT BE "IN," "ON,"
"AT," "OVER," "ABOVE"?

THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.
VERY CHALLENGING.

SO, THAT IDEA OF STRUGGLING
WITH ENGLISH IS DIFFICULT

FOR DEAF PEOPLE BECAUSE
THEY'RE SECOND-LANGUAGE
LEARNERS OF ENGLISH.

SO, THAT'S WHAT
THE "OF" PART WAS,

AND THE "BRIDGE," OF COURSE,
WAS JOINING TWO LANDS,

THE DEAF AND THE HEARING,

SEPARATED BY A RIVER BUT HAVING
A BRIDGE JOINING THE TWO.

PLUS, PLUS, WITH "BRIDGE OF..."

THE DOT, DOT, DOT PART
AT THE END OF IT

FELT LIKE WE'RE OPEN
TO THE POSSIBILITIES

OF WHAT CAN BE IN THE GREAT
BEYOND IN THE FUTURE.

SO, THAT'S WHAT THAT DOT, DOT,
DOT AT THE END OF THE NAME IS.

NO CONCLUSION,
JUST SORT OF "AND THEN?"

HOW MANY TIMES WE PERFORMED?

I THINK--LET'S SEE.

I THINK WE WERE TOGETHER
ONLY ONE YEAR. HMM.

I THINK IT WAS ABOUT A YEAR.

MAYBE NOT EVEN A FULL YEAR.

I REMEMBER PERFORMING
AT THE CLEARWATER FESTIVAL

IN NEW YORK.

THAT WAS IN THE SUMMER.

AND THEN I REMEMBER PERFORMING
IN VERMONT IN THE FALL, I THINK.

SO, MAYBE IT WAS ONLY--
I DON'T KNOW.

SPRING THROUGH WINTERTIME?

MAYBE THAT WAS THE DURATION.

IF I REMEMBER RIGHT.
I DON'T KNOW.

AND...IT'S REALLY CHALLENGING.

YOU REMINDED ME
THIS MORNING ABOUT, UM...

WELL, YOU'VE GOT
A MIXED AUDIENCE

OF DEAF AND HEARING MEMBERS,

AND SOMETIMES ONE FACTION
IN THE AUDIENCE

WOULDN'T BE SATISFIED.

SOMETIMES THE OTHER
ONE WOULDN'T.

SO, YOU COULDN'T ALWAYS
ASSUME THAT YOU WOULD BE

PROVIDING ACCESS TO EVERYBODY.

MOST OF THE TIME IT WORKED
FOR A GENERAL AUDIENCE,

AND MOST PEOPLE REALLY
ENJOYED IT A WHOLE LOT.

AND ALSO, YOU KNOW, WE--
THE 5 OF US

WOULD BE CREATING
THINGS TOGETHER.

SOMETIMES POETRY AND SOMETIMES

MORE LIKE PERFORMANCE ART.

OUR WORK TENDED TO BE
POLITICAL IN NATURE.

WE ALWAYS HAD A MESSAGE.

SOME OF IT WAS
HUMOROUS, OF COURSE,

AND SOME OF IT WAS
STORIES OR WHATEVER

OR FUNNY, BUT, TENDED
TO BE POLITICAL.

RIGHT.

YUP, THAT'S WHAT
THE 5 OF US DID.

I BELIEVE THAT STEFFA'S
INFLUENCE WAS
FELT IN BRIDGE OF...

ALL 5 OF US HAD BEEN IN THAT

DANCE GROUP IN
THE IMPROV SESSIONS,

AND SO, THEN WE TRANSFERRED
A LOT OF THOSE CONCEPTS

TO OUR GROUP WORK.

YES. YEAH, I REMEMBER THAT.

OH, WITH THE RONALD REAGAN MASK,
YES, AND THE FIRE.

I REMEMBER THAT.

YEAH, I'D LIKE
TO SEE THAT AGAIN.

IT'S NICE THAT YOU HAVE
SOME DOCUMENTATION

THAT YOU HAVE THIS.

GREAT.

OH, IT'S SO NICE.

IT'S INTERESTING--
YOU SENT THAT DVD

AND I LOOKED AT IT AND WENT,
"OH, MY GOD.

"THAT TIME WAS SO PRECIOUS.

IT WAS SO UNIQUE.
WHAT A TIME IT WAS."

THE WAY THAT WE ALL
WORKED TOGETHER

AND HOW WE INFLUENCED
EACH OTHER.

IT WAS SO INSPIRING.

NO.

HERE. IT STARTED HERE. YEAH.

YEAH, IT WAS AMAZING, TRULY.

YEAH, YOU HAVE A GOOD MEMORY.

OH, RIGHT, RIGHT, YEAH.

THAT WORKSHOP.

WELL, I PARTIALLY TOOK IT
FOR MYSELF, BUT--

OH, OK.

THE WALLFLOWER COLLECTIVE.

WALLFLOWER DANCE COLLECTIVE.

IT WAS A PERFORMANCE GROUP...

AND IT WAS COMPRISED OF WOMEN.

IT WASN'T THE MORE
TRADITIONAL BALLET.

IT WAS MORE MODERN DANCE,

AND THEY ALWAYS HAD A MESSAGE
BEHIND THEIR PERFORMANCES.

IT WAS ALWAYS A POINT TO THEM.

QUITE OFTEN POLITICAL IN NATURE.

I INTERPRETED FOR A PERFORMANCE
FOR THEM IN,

I THINK IT WAS AT
THE CLEARWATER FESTIVAL.

NOT SURE, REALLY.
HA HA HA!

IT'S JUST TERRIBLE.
I DON'T REMEMBER.

I REMEMBER WHERE,
BUT I DID INTERPRET

FOR THAT GROUP
A COUPLE OF TIMES.

AND I WAS TAKING DANCE CLASSES

ON A REGULAR BASIS AT THE TIME.

DURING THE SUMMER, THAT GROUP

OFFERED WORKSHOPS IN
BRATTLEBORO, VERMONT,

AND I DECIDED TO TAKE A TWO-WEEK
WORKSHOP WITH THEM.

EVERY DAY, IT WAS DANCE CLASSES
FOR TWO WEEKS.

NIGHT, YOU WOULD
JUST KIND OF HANG OUT.

YOU WOULD SCHMOOZE
WITH EACH OTHER.

NOPE. JUST DANCE.
REALLY, JUST DANCE.

HOW DID IT START?
THE NATIONAL
DEAF POETRY CONFERENCE?

WELL, LET'S SEE.

SO, IT SEEMED THAT
DEAF AND HEARING POETS

WERE GETTING TOGETHER.

SEEMED LIKE THERE WAS A POETRY
SCENE HERE IN ROCHESTER.

AND JIM WANTED
TO CONVENE A CONFERENCE

OF PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER
THE COUNTRY HERE IN ROCHESTER.

HE WANTED TO HAVE
A FORMAL DEAF POETRY CONFERENCE.

HE INVITED ELLA MAE LENTZ;
CLAYTON VALLI;

PETER COOK, OF COURSE;
AND DEBBIE RENNIE,

AND ONE MORE.

PATRICK GRAYBILL.

MY ROLE WAS TO
INTERPRET FOR DEBBIE.

THERE WASN'T ANY RELAY.
THERE WASN'T ANY WAY

TO GET AHOLD OF PEOPLE.

NOWADAYS, OF COURSE,
YOU COULD GO ON SKYPE

OR YOU COULD HAVE
VRS OR WHATEVER,

BUT WHAT WE WOULD DO IS

VIDEO OURSELVES
INTRODUCING OURSELVES.

HELLO. I'M AN INTERPRETER.
THIS IS MY NAME.

I'LL BE INTERPRETING FOR YOU
AT THE DEAF POETRY CONFERENCE.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

WE JUST WANTED THEM TO GET
A VISUAL ON WHO WE WERE

AND WELCOME THEM AND SAY
HOW EXCITED THEY WERE

TO BE COMING TO ROCHESTER.

SO, WE SENT THESE TAPES
TO ALL THE POETS.

AND I THINK THAT
SOME OF THE POETS

MAY HAVE SENT BACK
VIDEOS OF THEIR WORK

FOR US TO LOOK AT, TOO, SO THAT

THEY COULD INTRODUCE THEMSELVES
TO THE INTERPRETERS

IN THE SAME WAY.

SOME OF THE DEAF POETS

WERE OPEN TO WORKING
WITH INTERPRETERS

AND OTHERS FELT THAT THEY DIDN'T

NECESSARILY WANT TO DO THAT.

THEY WANTED TO USE
THEIR OWN WORDS

AND THEN JUST GIVE
A WRITTEN RENDITION

TO THE INTERPRETER TO READ.

SO, THERE WERE DIFFERENT
STYLES FOR EACH POET.

SOME PEOPLE WANTED
TO JUST GIVE OUT

A PIECE OF PAPER
FOR PEOPLE TO READ

AND NOT HAVE AN INTERPRETER, SO,

AH, I WAS WITH DEBBIE
FOR THE WHOLE CONFERENCE,

THE SAME AS I HAD BEEN ALWAYS,
VOICING FOR HER.

KENNY AND PETER
WERE PAIRED TOGETHER

THE SAME WAY THEY'D
ALWAYS BEEN WORKING TOGETHER.

KENNY, OF COURSE,
IS INVOLVED WITH

THE CREATIVE PROCESS
OF THE POETRY PETER PERFORMS,

SO, IT WAS A LITTLE DIFFERENT
THAN MY ROLE WITH DEBBIE,

BECAUSE I DON'T CREATE IT.

MOST NOT, NO.

IT WAS SEPARATE.

UH, MY ROLE WAS AS
A STRICT INTERPRETER.

I MEAN, ONCE IN A WHILE I MIGHT

GIVE SUGGESTIONS
TO DEBBIE, LIKE,

"IT MIGHT LOOK BETTER IF YOU DO
A LITTLE BIT OF THIS OR THAT,"

BUT GENERALLY, I KEPT
MY IDEAS TO MYSELF.

YOU WANT ME TO EXPLAIN THAT?
OK. HA!

I DON'T REMEMBER
WHO NAMED IT THAT,

BUT FOR THIS
PARTICULAR CONFERENCE,

MOST OF THE INTERPRETING WAS
CLOSED LOOP, MEANING THAT

IF YOU WANTED TO HEAR
THE VOICE INTERPRETER,

YOU HAD TO WEAR
SPECIAL HEADPHONES

SO YOU COULD HEAR OUR VOICES.

IN THE AUDITORIUM,

I THINK IN JAZZBERRY'S, ALSO,

I'M NOT SURE.

MAYBE IT WAS JUST
IN THE THEATER.

PANARA THEATER AT NTID. RIGHT.

WHAT WE DID WAS
WE CREATED THIS STRUCTURE
WITH FOAM CUSHIONS,

SORT OF A BOX,
AND THEN COVERED IT

WITH BLACK CLOTH.

AND THE TWO INTERPRETERS
ASSIGNED WOULD SIT INSIDE IT.

IT FELT LIKE A COCOON.

IT WAS REALLY NICE
TO BE IN THERE.

AND THAT WAY, IF THERE
WERE HEARING PEOPLE

WHO DIDN'T WANT
TO HEAR THE VOICES

AND JUST ENJOY
WATCHING THE SIGNS,

THEY WOULDN'T HAVE
TO HEAR OUR VOICES, UM,

ESCAPING FROM THAT COCOON.

WE WOULD SPEAK
VERY QUIETLY ANYWAY,

BUT WE JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE
THEY DIDN'T HEAR IT

IF THEY DIDN'T WANT TO.

WHEN I LOOK BACK,

I COULD IMAGINE THAT
I FELT VERY PROTECTED

IN THAT LITTLE SHELL,

VERY INTIMATE WITH MY
VOICING PARTNER.

IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN HOT IN THERE.
I DON'T REMEMBER.

DO YOU REMEMBER IT
BEING HOT IN THERE?

RIGHT, RIGHT, YES.

IT WAS VERY INTIMATE.
VERY CLOSE.

WE WERE REALLY
RIGHT ON TOP OF EACH OTHER,

AND IT WAS WONDERFUL TO BE ABLE
TO GIVE THAT SUPPORT.

YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT
WHAT IT MIGHT LOOK LIKE

TO THE AUDIENCE, YOU KNOW,
IF THEY COULD SEE US GO,

"YOU'RE DOING GREAT"
OR, YOU KNOW, LIKE,

"I NEED TO HOLD YOUR HAND.

"I'M PATTING YOUR BACK.
YOU'RE DOING A GREAT JOB.

GO FOR IT."
YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF THING.

IT WAS WONDERFUL--
WONDERFUL ENVIRONMENT

FOR TEAMWORK.

BEFORE THE CONFERENCE OPENED?

OH, YEAH.
I WAS VERY NERVOUS.

I WAS REALLY SCARED BECAUSE NOW

WHAT WE'D BEEN DOING
ON A LOCAL SCENE

WAS GONNA BE OPENED
MORE TO THE NATIONAL SCENE.

PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY
WERE GONNA COME

AND SEE WHAT WE'D BEEN UP TO.

SO, HERE IT IS.
HERE'S WHAT WE'RE DOING.

IT WAS VERY EXCITING, OF COURSE,

ESPECIALLY TO SEE
ALL THE DIFFERENT DEAF POETS,

ONE AFTER ANOTHER,
PERFORM THEIR WORK,

AND THEN THERE WAS
THIS PANEL, TOO.

THE PANEL OF POETS
TALKING ABOUT THEIR POETRY.

JUST A THRILL. REALLY.

IT WAS.
HA HA HA HA!

I WAS TERRIFIED.
I WAS ON THIS PANEL.

IT WAS WORSE, YOU KNOW, THAN IF

I HAD BEEN INTERPRETING
SOMETHING, BECAUSE,

YOU KNOW, I HAD--
HADN'T BEEN USING

MY OWN VOICE
IN INTERPRETING WORK.

I WOULD VOICE DEBBIE'S WORK

OR I WOULD SIGN
OTHER PEOPLE'S WORK.

I WAS ALWAYS BEING
SOMEBODY ELSE,

ALWAYS CONVEYING SOMETHING
NOT SELF-GENERATED.

I MEAN, IT WAS
MY WORK, OF COURSE,

BUT IT DEPENDED ON
SOMEBODY ELSE'S IDEAS.

ON THIS PANEL,
I WAS BEING ASKED

WHAT I THOUGHT.

ASKING ME TO TALK ABOUT THINGS.

AND SO, I WAS REALLY SCARED.

AND I WASN'T USED TO THAT ROLE.

I WASN'T USED
TO PEOPLE ASKING ME

WHAT I THOUGHT ABOUT
THINGS PERSONALLY.

RIGHT. VERY NEW.

YES. VERY NEW. MM-HMM.

AND...YOU KNOW,
WHEN SOMETHING NEW COMES ALONG,

SOME PEOPLE ARE THRILLED

AND OTHER PEOPLE
ARE MORE TREPIDATIOUS

AND FEEL YOU SHOULDN'T GO THERE.

SO, THERE IS ALWAYS, YOU KNOW,

PROS AND CONS TO THESE
SORTS OF THINGS,

AND THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE

FOR ANYTHING NEW
THAT COMES ALONG.

SOME PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS
RESISTANT TO CHANGE.

THEY'RE GOING TO RESIST
NEW IDEAS.

YEAH, AND SHE MOVED TO SWEDEN.
MM-HMM.

WOW. OH, IT WAS SO AMAZING

WHEN I WENT TO SCANDINAVIA
WITH DEBBIE.

IT WAS FAR OUT.
SO, WHAT HAPPENED WAS,
LET'S SEE.

DEBBIE WENT DURING
THE SUMMERTIME.

I THINK SHE WENT TO DENMARK

AND SHE TAUGHT A WORKSHOP

AND GAVE A PERFORMANCE

AND SHOWED POETRY THERE.

AND THERE WAS A WOMAN
FROM DENMARK THERE

WHO WAS ALSO DEAF
AND SHE SAID, "WOW.

"I WANT TO PUT TOGETHER
A TOUR FOR YOU.

"I WANT YOU TO GO AROUND
SCANDINAVIA AND SHOW THIS

AND I WANT YOU TO HAVE
AN INTERPRETER COME WITH YOU."

AND DEBBIE SAID,
"WELL, I JUST HAPPEN TO HAVE

"AN INTERPRETER
I CAN BRING WITH ME.

DONNA. I'LL CHECK AND SEE."

SHE SAID, "DONNA, YOU WANT TO?"
I SAID, "OH, YEAH."

HA HA!
AND SO, I WENT

AND IT WAS SO MUCH FUN.

SO, THE VERY NEXT YEAR,
I THINK IT WAS THE FALL,

END OF SUMMER AND INTO THE FALL.

EARLY FALL, I GUESS.

SO, WHAT HAPPENED WAS,

WELL, SHE WAS ALREADY THERE.

I FLEW AND MET DEBBIE IN SWEDEN,

AND EACH COUNTRY WE WENT TO,
WE WOULD FIRST GET THERE

AND WE'D MEET ALL
THE DEAF PEOPLE THAT WE COULD,

AND WE WOULD START ASKING THEM

WHAT THEIR SIGNS
FOR CERTAIN WORDS

THAT WE HAD IN
THE POETRY WOULD BE,

BECAUSE DEBBIE WANTED TO TAKE

THE SIGN LANGUAGE
THAT SHE WAS USED TO

AND PUT IN THE WORDS
FROM THE LOCAL LEXICON.

SO...YOU KNOW,
SHE WANTED TO MAKE SURE

THAT SHE WAS ABLE
TO ACCOMMODATE THAT.

BUT OF COURSE, THERE WERE SOME
THINGS THAT WERE UNIVERSAL,

LIKE THE SON AND THE FATHER
THAT I SHOWED BEFORE.

OF COURSE, THOSE WERE THINGS
THAT EVERYBODY WOULD UNDERSTAND.

BUT SHE WANTED TO
INTRODUCE IT BY USING

THE LOCAL SIGN FOR "FATHER"
OR THE LOCAL SIGN FOR "SON"

AND THEN THE ACTION
WOULD BE CLEAR ENOUGH.

SO, RIGHT AWAY, AS SOON AS WE

HIT THE GROUND IN A NEW COUNTRY,

WE WOULD MAKE IT OUR GOAL
TO FIND OUT

WHAT THE LOCAL SIGNS WERE
SO THAT IT WOULD

FIT THE WORK BETTER
AND THEN BE MORE

EASILY COMPREHENSIBLE
TO THE LOCAL DEAF PEOPLE.

AND I VOICED EVERYTHING
IN ENGLISH BECAUSE

ALMOST EVERYBODY SPEAKS ENGLISH
IN THOSE AREAS

WHO WOULD COME
TO THE PERFORMANCES

THAT WE WERE DOING AT THE TIME.

WHEN SHE MOVED TO SWEDEN?

WHEN SHE MOVED TO STAY.
LET'S SEE.

I MOVED TO THE FARM IN 1989.

I WAS THERE TILL '92.

'88, I WENT ON THAT TOUR OF
SCANDINAVIA WITH DEBBIE.

AND '89.

SO, I GUESS SHE MOVED
IN '89, ALSO.

ONCE IN A WHILE,
SHE'D COME BACK TO THE U.S.

AND I WOULD INTERPRET FOR HER.

A FEW TIMES.

AND WE SEE EACH OTHER
ONCE IN A WHILE NOW,

BUT, YOU KNOW, JUST TO VISIT,
JUST TO CATCH UP,

STAY FRIENDS, BUT IT'S NEVER
FOR WORK ANYMORE.

YEAH. NO, I HAVEN'T
VOICED FOR HER, UH,

FOR DEAF POETRY IN A LONG TIME,
BUT YOU HAVE TO KNOW,

WHEN SHE MOVED TO SWEDEN,
I MOVED TO

A SMALL FARM COMMUNITY,
AND THERE WERE NO DEAF PEOPLE

ANYWHERE AROUND THERE, SO...

AND THE ROCHESTER SCENE
WAS STILL

VERY HOT AND VERY HAPPENING,
THE POETRY SCENE,

BUT I LEFT AROUND THAT TIME
AND MOVED.

AND I WOULD COME BACK
ONCE IN A WHILE

AND I WOULD SEE
WHAT WAS GOING ON,

BUT IT WASN'T WITH THE SAME
VELOCITY AS BEFORE

WHEN I WAS INVOLVED.

WELL, I--I DID SAY
A FEW THINGS LIKE THIS

BEFORE, I THINK, BUT...

I THINK THAT POETRY IS A WAY TO

REPRESENT FEELINGS,

BRING THEM FORTH,

SOMETIMES WITH PICTURES,

TO BE ABLE TO SHOW THESE
PROFOUND SENTIMENTS

THAT WE HAVE WITHIN US.

A POEM CAN SHOW
SOMETHING SPIRITUAL,

SOMETHING THAT'S NOT
KNOWN WITH THE HEAD

THAT IS SOMEHOW WITHIN OUR
SUBCONSCIOUS BROUGHT FORWARD

AND THEN TRYING TO COMMUNICATE,

AND IT'S ABOUT
THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE.

SOMETHING THAT INSPIRES US.

AND IT'S LIKE YOU SAID BEFORE.

IT'S BEYOND WORDS.

AND IT USES WORDS.

BUT WHEN YOU HEAR IT OR SEE IT
OR READ IT,

THE FEELING YOU GET TRANSCENDS
THE WORDS THAT ARE USED.

SO, IT'S--IT'S TRANSMITTED
THROUGH WORDS AND SIGNS

BUT CULMINATES
IN SOMETHING THAT'S BEYOND

THOSE WORDS AND SIGNS.

I'VE SAID MANY TIMES THAT MAYBE

"MISSING CHILDREN"
IS MY FAVORITE POEM.

I JUST WATCHED IT WITH ANOTHER
HEARING FRIEND FROM CANADA
WHO SPEAKS FRENCH.

WE WERE WATCHING THIS TOGETHER
ON THE DVD YOU SENT.

AND SHE WAS SO TOUCHED BY IT.

IT WAS SO POIGNANT.

AND I--I WAS TOUCHED BY IT, TOO.

I THINK IT TELLS A BIGGER STORY

THAN WHAT IS EVEN SHOWN
IN THE POEM.

AND I THINK POETRY
DOES THAT QUITE OFTEN,

AND THAT'S WHAT
WE ENJOY ABOUT IT.

YEAH, I DO SOMETIMES
READ POETRY WITH MY KIDS

AND IT'S REALLY FUN, BECAUSE
MY SON IS NOW IN SECOND GRADE.

HE HAS THIS WONDERFUL TEACHER.

COMES TO THE CLASS
WITH A GUITAR SOMETIMES

AND SINGS WITH THEM.

BUT THIS TEACHER ALSO HAS
THE CHILDREN MEMORIZE POEMS.

AFTER THEY'VE MEMORIZED
THE POEM, THEN

THEY'LL RECITE IT TO THE CLASS,

AND THEN MY SON WILL
BRING IT HOME ON A CARD.

THE POEM WILL BE PRINTED
ON THE CARD.

AND IT'S SO NICE TO HAVE IT.

SO, THERE'S DIFFERENT COLORS--

RED, YELLOW, PURPLE,
WHAT HAVE YOU--

AND WE HAVE THIS LITTLE STACK
OF DIFFERENT COLORS

FOR THE DIFFERENT POEMS.

SO, WE HAVE THAT AS A RECORD OF

HIS POETRY READINGS
FROM SECOND GRADE.

YES. SOME, NOT ALWAYS,
NOT ALWAYS BUT SOME.

YEAH, SOME RHYME
AND SOME DON'T.

IT'S FUNNY. UM...

WHEN I STARTED
INTERPRETING FOR DEBBIE,

YESTERDAY I WAS TALKING WITH
SUSAN CHAPEL ABOUT THIS.

AND I THINK I STARTED
INTERPRETING FOR HER

BECAUSE SHE WAS DOING TOURS
OF DIFFERENT SCHOOLS

AND PERFORMING HER CLOWN WORK,
AND SUSAN SAID,

"NO, THAT WAS MUCH LATER."

SHE SAID, "YOU STARTED
WITH POETRY."

BUT I THINK IT STARTED
WITH STORYTELLING

AND THEN LATER MORPHED TO
THE POETRY INTERPRETING FOR HER.

I DON'T KNOW.

CLEARWATER YOU THINK
IS THE FIRST TIME

THAT I INTERPRETED FOR HER?

YEAH. '85.

I THINK--'84 OR '85?

MAYBE '83, EVEN?

'84, I THINK.
I THINK IT WAS '84.

THAT'S WHEN I STARTED
INTERPRETING AT CLEARWATER.
YEAH.

AND DEBBIE PERFORMED--
YEAH, SHE DID.

SHE WAS DOING
STORYTELLING THERE,

THAT'S TRUE, THAT YEAR,

SO, MAYBE THAT WAS IT.

BUT NOT--

NO, I DON'T THINK CLEARWATER
WAS THE FIRST TIME

I INTERPRETED FOR HER
FOR STORYTELLING, BECAUSE

THERE WERE SOME
PERFORMANCES IN--

THERE WAS THIS WOMAN WHO WAS
ORGANIZING THE STORYTELLING

AT CLEARWATER, AND SHE LIVES
IN NORTH CAROLINA.

LOUISE KESSEL.

AND SHE INVITED DEBBIE AND ME

TO COME DOWN TO
NORTH CAROLINA TWICE

TO DO A LITTLE TOUR OF
STORYTELLING DOWN THERE.

NO, I THINK WE DID IT.
THANK YOU.

"This project is supported by a Digitizing Hidden Collections grant from the Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR). The grant program is made possible by funding from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation."

Title supplied by cataloger

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