Detail View: Deaf Studies, Culture, and History Archives: Interview

ds_0027_rennieinterview_cap_01.mp4

ds_0027_rennieinterview_cap_01.mp4

Interview

Rennie, Debbie

Rennie, Debbie Interviews

American Sign Language literature

Deaf Poetry

American poetry 20th century

American poetry 21st century

Deaf, Writings of the, American

ASL poetry

Part of a collection of interviews made for a film on ASL poetry, "The Heart of the Hydrogen Jukebox." Debbie Rennie shares influences on her development as an ASL poet, starting with transferring to a Deaf school when she was 12. Her world opened up in an ASL rich accessible environment. In the evenings, the students would create stories and she took a mime class which led to performances. Her school also had a strong theatre and arts program which fostered creativity. She reflects upon her NTID years in the 1980s where she participated in Sunshine II, and interned in the Performing Arts department. Classes such as Creative Sign Language (taught by Patrick Graybill), Deaf Literature (taught by Robert Panara), dance (taught by Steph Z.) and acting honed her translation, movement, artistic and ASL poetry skills. She recalls the challenge of translating works, such as Dorothy Miles's poems into another art form such as movement. They did works like "Spoon River Anthology" and haiku poems and played with sign language. She majored in Graphic Design and met Peter Cook who also chose this major. They were exposed to new ideas in the art world which influenced their works. During this time, she, Peter Cook and Kenny Lerner became roommates. They constantly discussed ideas for their poetry work and performed. She discovered the realization that she did not have to write in English to produce poetry that she could create in ASL. English was not a language she was fluent in, and she felt inferior and devalued in that language which affected her self-worth. Expressing herself in ASL was natural as she was fluent in that language and could express herself freely and creatively. One poem that stands out for her is "Hamburg" which she did with Peter and considers it the best work they have done. Other creative works that stand out are "Cigarette Smoke" and "Big World Compared to Small World" which she felt were excellent. She started attending interpreted poetry readings where she saw Jim Cohn read his works. He had a great influence on her and encouraged her as a poet. She also met Donna Kachites who became her interpreter when she performed. Rennie discusses the importance of the first 1987 National ASL Poetry Conference which brought together poets with different expressive styles like Ella Mae Lentz, Clayton Valli, Patrick Graybill, Peter Cook, and herself. Valli gave them credibility as he was also a linguist and validated that their work was poetry. So much was shared that weekend and she grew from that experience. ASL poetry exploded and she along with Patrick Graybill and Dennis Webster performed at "The Cellar" or "The Ritz" on Tuesday nights with fellow poets like Peter Cook. Another venue for performances was Jazzberries where interpreted performances was conducted for a mixed audience of Deaf and hearing people. She recalls Howie Seago, Patrick Graybill, Clayton Valli performing as well as herself. Around this time, there was a group of Deaf and hearing poets and interpreters (Debbie, Peter, Kenny, Jim, Donna) who called themselves "Bridge Of", a short-lived group. They performed group poems which was difficult to create. She performed along with her fellow poets at a festival, "Clearwater Festival". In order to prepare for her poetry performances, she would videotape herself and give the video to her interpreter, Donna Kachites who took notes. Then Debbie would review the notes and they would meet to discuss how best to interpret the work and practice. They practiced a lot together so they could get the timing right and give a flawless performance. She marvels as to how this occurred because they freely volunteered their time without pay. Today, that probably would not occur. Debbie and Donna were committed to having the whole community involved, including Deaf and hearing, so all could have access and understand the performances. Debbie said it was great to work with Donna who was a gifted poetics interpreter. There was some controversy about whether ASL poetry should be voiced with many discussions about this. Debbie believed it was important to give access to everyone, thus her work with Donna. Some of Rennie's poems highlighted social issues she cared about, such as "Veal Boycott", and "Missing Children". Debbie likes to project emotions into her work and wants to "hit" the audience with those feelings. There are several influences on her works she has incorporated techniques such as the way Ella Mae Lentz uses rhythm and repetition, handshape formation from Patrick Graybill, backward/forward movements and shifts in time and place from Peter Cook, and infusing symbols and metaphors. She discusses the importance of using classifiers as they provide perspective and a rich and visual image, such as showing the different ways a person walks, or showing trees going by. Peter Cook talked about film language which is similar to sign language and can show perspectives such as a person walking, a bullet coming towards that person, and becoming the bullet. ASL poetry expression involves so many other features and elements such as choosing the correct sign angle, showing emotions, using facial expressions, moving the body for special effect, standing a particular way and more. She takes all of these ideas and techniques and mixes them up to refine her poems. Not surprisingly, Debbie sees her identity bound with being an ASL poet which is a source of pride and self-actualization for her. It makes her feel good about herself as a Deaf person. Being a poet is a developing process and reflects who she is. Over the years her work has evolved in its maturity and elegance. She finds poetry therapeutic and will create poems out of painful experiences or increase awareness of social issues that she cares about. She loves playing with ASL poetry and performing her work which is a source of self-esteem. After she left NTID, she settled in Sweden. The 1980s was a time of discovering ASL poetry, as if a flower was blooming. At that time, she thought the seeds from that flower would be dispersed widely, take root, and grow elsewhere, but that did not happen. She believes she has taken those seeds and disseminated them in Sweden through educational videos where an appreciation of sign poetry is part of the curriculum at five Deaf schools. She considers this a positive development as sign poetry is on par with written and spoken poetry. Deaf students exposed to sign poetry will keep it alive as they start creating their own works.

National Technical Institute for the Deaf

Rochester Institute of Technology - RIT Libraries - RIT Archive Collections

Lerner, Miriam Nathan

2007

2018

moving image

mp4

DVD

85 minutes

American Sign Language

English

RITDSA.0027

Sculptures in the Air: An Accessible Online Video Repository of the American Sign Language (ASL) Poetry and Literature Collections

Miriam and Kenneth Lerner ASL Poetry Collection

2018-2019 CLIR Grant-ASL Poetry and Literature

https://albert.rit.edu/record=b3954965

https://archivesspace.rit.edu/repositories/2/resources/815

New York - Rochester

Henrietta Campus

RIT Libraries makes materials from its collections available for educational and research purposes pursuant to U.S. Copyright Law. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. It is your responsibility to obtain permission from the copyright holder to publish or reproduce images in print or electronic form.

CC BY-NC-ND: Attribution NonCommercial NoDerivatives 4.0 International

I WAS BORN DEAF, AND WE DON'T REALLY KNOW THE REASONS WHY. IT'S PROBABLY HEREDITARY. BUT MY FAMILY DIDN'T SIGN AT ALL. I WAS FIRST PLACED INTO A DAY SCHOOL PROGRAM THAT I COMMUTED TO. IT WAS ALL ORAL. THERE WAS NO SIGN LANGUAGE ALLOWED AT ALL. IT WAS REALLY A STRUGGLE. I WAS ALWAYS HAVING TO GUESS TO FILL IN THE GAPS. VERY DIFFICULT. WHAT I WAS GOOD AT WAS READING BODY LANGUAGE AND FACIAL EXPRESSIONS, AND I WAS ABLE TO PUT TOGETHER INFORMATION FROM WHAT I SAW. WHEN I FINALLY HIT THE AGE OF 12, I WAS PUT INTO A SCHOOL FOR THE DEAF, AND FINALLY THERE WERE NO MORE STRUGGLES. I DIDN'T FEEL AS IF I WAS HANDICAPPED AT ALL. I FELT LIKE I WAS SWIMMING IN AN OCEAN OF LANGUAGE. IT WAS SO PLEASURABLE JUST HAVING LANGUAGE AROUND ME ALL THE TIME. I PICKED IT UP REALLY QUICKLY, AND I FELT AT HOME IMMEDIATELY. I NEVER HAD THE SKILL AS A LIPREADER. I JUST WASN'T GOOD AT THAT AT ALL. BUT WITH SIGN LANGUAGE, I COULD PLAY. BACK IN THE DORM EVERY DAY, EVERY NIGHT, WE JUST PLAYED WITH LANGUAGE. WE CAME UP WITH ABC STORIES. WE TOOK TURNS SHARING DIFFERENT IDEAS. HAD A LOT OF INFLUENCE ON ME, PLAYING WITH LANGUAGE. THERE WASN'T TV AROUND. WE JUST SIGNED. WE TOOK TURNS ALL THE TIME JUST SHOWING EACH OTHER THINGS IN SIGN LANGUAGE. WHEN I GOT TO NATIONAL TECHNICAL INSTITUTE FOR THE DEAF, I WAS IN THEATER. BUT THE LANGUAGE I SAW HERE WAS MOSTLY ENGLISH. PEOPLE WERE SIGNING MORE ENGLISH. I CAME FROM THIS DEAF SCHOOL, OF COURSE, WHERE IT WAS ALL ASL ALL THE WAY, ALL THE TIME. AND I GOT TO NTID, THERE WAS MORE ENGLISH SIGNING, AND I THINK THAT WAS BECAUSE OF THE ACADEMIC EDUCATIONAL INFLUENCE AND INTRUSION OF ENGLISH. WHEN I MOVED TO SWEDEN, WHICH WAS IN 1991, AND MADE THAT DECISION TO MOVE, AND OF COURSE, I HAD TO JETTISON ASL FROM MY EXPRESSION, AND I HAD TO LEARN A WHOLE NEW SIGN LANGUAGE. IT WAS LIKE STARTING ALL OVER AGAIN, LEARNING SWEDISH SIGN LANGUAGE. VERY FRUSTRATING. I COULDN'T COMMUNICATE IN THE BEGINNING AT ALL. PEOPLE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND ME. TOOK A LOT OF WORK TO RAMP UP. TOOK PROBABLY AROUND 4 YEARS UNTIL THE QUALITY OF MY SIGNING WAS SUCH THAT I WOULD CALL MYSELF FLUENT. NOW, 8 YEARS AFTER I MOVED THERE, I WAS FLUENT, BUT I WATCHED MYSELF ON SOME VIDEOS FROM ABOUT 4 YEARS AFTER I'D MOVED TO SWEDEN, SO I'D HAD 4 YEARS OF SWEDISH SIGN LANGUAGE UNDER MY BELT, AND IT WAS INTERESTING. I STILL SAW SO MUCH ASL INTRUSION. I STILL HADN'T COMPLETELY SWITCHED OVER TO SWEDISH SIGN LANGUAGE. NOW, OF COURSE, I HAVE. BUT THE THING THAT I UNDERSTAND FROM ALL THIS IS THAT WHEN YOU ACQUIRE A LANGUAGE, YOU HAVE TO COGITATE ON IT, YOU HAVE TO DIGEST IT AND CHEW ON IT. LANGUAGE IS JUST AN AMAZING THING. I SEE IT SO CLEARLY NOW. AND WHEN I GO TO OTHER COUNTRIES AND I SEE ALL THE DIFFERENT SIGN LANGUAGES IN EACH ONE, I GET IT SO MUCH MORE THAN I EVER DID BEFORE. I TOOK LANGUAGE FOR GRANTED BEFORE. BUT NOW WHEN I OBJECTIVELY LOOK AT LANGUAGES, THE WAY IT WORKS-- LIKE FOR INSTANCE, DANISH SIGN LANGUAGE OR NORWEGIAN SIGN LANGUAGE OR ICELANDIC SIGN LANGUAGE, LOOK AT ALL THE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AND THE DIFFERENT SIGN LANGUAGES THEY HAVE, I REALIZE HOW INCREDIBLE THEY ARE AND HOW MUCH PLAY THERE IS IN ALL OF THEM. WHAT I DO IS I BORROW IDEAS OR BORROW SIGNS FROM ALL THESE DIFFERENT LANGUAGES I'VE BEEN EXPOSED TO, AND I ADD THEM TO MY OWN LEXICON, AND IT'S JUST FASCINATING. AND I AM RICH IN LANGUAGE. I HAVE A WEALTH OF LANGUAGE WITHIN ME. I THOUGHT IT WAS MORE NATURAL THAN THAT. WELL, ABC STORIES-- AT THE SCHOOL FOR THE DEAF, OF COURSE, WE HAD THEATER ARTS. I HAD THIS ONE ENGLISH TEACHER WHO HAD A BIG INFLUENCE ON ME. THIS PERSON TAUGHT SHAKESPEARE. I REMEMBER VERY CLEARLY LEARNING ABOUT MACBETH. THERE WERE FILMSTRIPS THAT WERE SHOWN IN THE CLASSROOM. SO THIS ENGLISH TEACHER WOULD HAVE US READ THE CAPTIONS ON THE FILMSTRIPS, AND WE WOULD LEARN ABOUT GREEK THEATER. WE LEARNED ABOUT FILMS. AND THEY WERE SO ABSTRACT. I HAD A LOT OF ART, A LOT OF THEATER TRAINING. YOU KNOW, EVERY NIGHT THERE WAS NOTHING TO DO IN THE DORMS. THERE WAS NO TV, NO INTERNET, COMPUTERS HADN'T BEEN INVENTED YET. SO EVERY NIGHT THEY OFFERED DIFFERENT COURSES THAT YOU COULD TAKE. LIKE TUESDAY NIGHTS THERE WOULD BE A MIME CLASS. AND SO SOME WELL-KNOWN MIME WOULD COME AND WOULD GIVE US A WORKSHOP ON MIME. THAT WAS WHEN I WAS ABOUT 13 OR 14 YEARS OLD, WHEN I STARTED TO LEARN MIME AND PERFORM IT. AND I TOTALLY LOVED IT. NOW, OF COURSE, OUR SCHOOL BELIEVED IN SPEECH, SO IF WE WERE IN A PLAY, WE HAD TO TALK AND ACT AT THE SAME TIME, RIGHT. AND WHAT THEY WOULD DO IS HAVE THE CAPTIONS PROJECTED OVER THE TOP OF THE STAGE FOR PEOPLE TO READ. BUT I COULDN'T PARTICIPATE IN THAT BECAUSE I COULDN'T TALK. SO I WAS MORE OF A DANCER, AND I WAS A MIME. MIME WAS SOMETHING I COULD DO. BODY LANGUAGE, THAT FIT ME PERFECTLY. SO I WAS HAPPY TO GET INVOLVED WITH THAT. AND IT ADDED TO MY SKILL SET, I THINK. THE CLOWN WORK I DID WAS MUCH, MUCH LATER. THAT WAS WHEN I WAS WITH FTD IN CLEVELAND, OHIO-- THE FAIRMOUNT THEATER FOR THE DEAF. THAT WAS A PROFESSIONAL THEATER COMPANY I WAS INVOLVED WITH. SO BOTH OF THOSE EXPERIENCES FROM SCHOOL AND THE THEATRICAL BACKGROUND INFORMED EACH OTHER. YES. I'M NOT SURE WHEN. LET'S SEE. BUT MY FIRST PERFORMANCE HERE WAS WITH PAUL JOHNSTON. HE WAS DIRECTING COMMEDIA DELL'ARTE. SO I WAS PERFORMING THAT. AND I THINK THAT WAS BEFORE 1980. I WAS IN SUNSHINE TOO. I WAS IN SUNSHINE TOO. SO THIS WAS BEFORE I WAS EVEN PART OF SUNSHINE TOO. SO I WAS HERE, I WAS INTO THE THEATER. AND EVERYONE TOLD ME I WAS AWESOME, THEY APPLAUDED ME. AND OF COURSE, I GREW UP ACTING AND DANCING AND PERFORMING. I STARTED DANCING WHEN I WAS 4 OR 5. AND, OF COURSE, THAT WAS INTERNALIZED WITH ME. I WOULD BE WITH ALL HEARING DANCERS. OF COURSE, I WAS ALWAYS LATE ON MY CUES, BUT I DANCED ANYWAY. BUT AS FOR THE THEATER HERE AT NTID, I REALLY WANTED TO BE MORE INVOLVED WITH THOSE THINGS. AND THEN I WENT TO AN NTD, NATIONAL THEATER OF THE DEAF, SUMMER SCHOOL IN 1980. AND THEN I WAS IN THE CAST OF THE FIRST SUNSHINE TOO GROUP, THE FIRST YEAR IT WAS FORMED IN 1980. COMMEDIA DELL'ARTE. THERE'S NO DIALOGUE IN THAT. IT'S ALL BODY MOVEMENT. IT'S ALL MIME. LIKE, IF YOU WERE GONNA TALK ABOUT MONEY, YOU WOULD SHOW A BIG SACK OF COINS OR WHAT HAVE YOU. EVERYTHING WAS EXPLAINED WITH MIME AND GESTURE. NO SPEAKING, NO DIALOGUE AT ALL. IT'S COMMEDIA DELL'ARTE. YEAH, A LOT OF MOVEMENT. LATER... LET'S SEE, THERE WAS SUNSHINE TOO AND THEN FTD, FAIRMOUNT THEATER OF THE DEAF. THAT'S WHEN I DID A LOT MORE TRANSLATION FROM SCRIPTS TO SIGN LANGUAGE. THAT WAS IN CLEVELAND. FAIRMOUNT THEATER FOR THE DEAF. I DON'T KNOW OF IT'S STILL RUNNING OR NOT. WE TRANSLATED A LOT. AND I LEARNED A LOT MORE ABOUT THE TRANSLATION PROCESS FROM THAT, UNDERSTOOD MORE ABOUT HOW TO GO ABOUT TRANSLATION. YEAH, THAT'S ANOTHER STORY. THAT'S ANOTHER PART OF MY HISTORY. I HAD AN INTERNSHIP WITH THE THEATER DEPARTMENT HERE. AND I TOOK A CREATIVE SIGN LANGUAGE CLASS AND A DEAF LITERATURE CLASS WITH BOB PANARA... AND THEN ACTING CLASSES AND ALL THAT SORT OF THING. NOW, AT THAT TIME, LET'S SEE, PATRICK-- I THINK IT WAS PATRICK, SOME OTHER DEAF FOLKS, AND I DON'T REMEMBER-- DENNIS WEBSTER, I THINK, TOO, WAS INVOLVED IN THIS. WE WOULD GO DOWN TO THE CELLAR, AND THEY HAD A STAGE THERE. AND THIS WAS PREVIOUS TO 1985. IT WAS BEFORE THEN. AND EVERY TUESDAY NIGHT, EVERYBODY WOULD GO TO THE CELLAR, AND WE WOULD TAKE TURNS DOING SOME CREATIVE SIGN LANGUAGE SKITS AND PERFORMANCES. TOM HOLCOMB, I REMEMBER WAS THERE, AND HE WAS ANNOUNCING THAT FINALLY DEAF STUDIES WAS GETTING GOING. THAT WAS, YOU KNOW, A REALLY BIG ANNOUNCEMENT BECAUSE IT HADN'T EXISTED BEFORE. AND I WENT, AND I WAS IN THAT GROUP, TOO, SO I GOT TO PERFORM. AND PATRICK SAID TO ME, "YOU'RE SIGNING TOO ENGLISH." I SAID, "TOO ENGLISH? ME?" HE SAID, "WELL, HOW DO YOU CREATE YOUR STUFF?" AND I SAID, "WELL, I WRITE IT DOWN FIRST." AND FROM HIM, I LEARNED THAT I SHOULD PUT THE ENGLISH ASIDE COMPLETELY, AND I SHOULD LOOK AT HANDSHAPES AND PLAY AROUND WITH THE DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES OF ASL. THAT WAS FASCINATING TO ME. THAT'S WHEN I STARTED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT ASL POETRY MIGHT BE AND THAT WRITING POEMS WAS A HEARING SORT OF ENTERPRISE. AND I WAS FINDING THAT I NEEDED TO CHANGE TO THINKING ABOUT SIGNING FIRST, BECAUSE HOW WOULD I SHOW THE ART OF A POEM IN SIGN IF IT STARTED WITH A WRITTEN VERSION? IT DIDN'T SEEM LIKE THAT WAS GOING TO WORK. IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO CREATE A POEM IN SIGN LANGUAGE. IT WAS FASCINATING TO WATCH THAT WORK AND TO START PLAYING AROUND WITH IT MYSELF. AND I STARTED THEN, AND I'M STILL DOING IT NOW. AND I FEEL THAT NOW I'M EVEN MORE OF A POET THAN I EVER WAS, AND I'M MORE INTO POETRY THAN I'VE EVER BEEN. YEP, WRITTEN. BECAUSE I FELT THAT-- WELL, I'VE ALWAYS FELT THAT WRITING POETRY IS MY THERAPY. IT STARTED WHEN I FELL IN LOVE WITH THIS HEARING MAN, AND I WAS CRAZY ABOUT THIS GUY, FELL HARD. AND HE KIND OF SAID, "NOPE, SORRY. YOU'RE DEAF. AIN'T GONNA WORK." THAT JUST TORE ME APART, HONESTLY. I JUST FELT LIKE IF I'D BEEN HEARING, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOGETHER, BUT THAT WAS IMPOSSIBLE. HE SAID, "I CAN'T. "I'D FEEL LIKE A GOLDFISH. "I'D FEEL LIKE I WAS SWIMMING IN A GOLDFISH BOWL IF WE WERE TOGETHER." I THOUGHT, "A GOLDFISH?" AND I JUST IMAGINED THAT IMAGE, WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO SAY. AND THE MINUTE I UNDERSTOOD WHAT IMAGE HE WAS TRYING TO EVOKE, I WENT HOME AND I WROTE A POEM, AND IT FELT SO MUCH BETTER TO GET THAT OUT. I FELT AS IF IT WAS THERAPEUTIC TO ME. AND SO WHEN SOMETHING HITS ME A CERTAIN WAY OR AFFECTS ME, I FEEL LIKE I HAVE TO DO THAT, I HAVE TO WRITE SOMETHING DOWN. THERE'S CURRENT EVENTS, SOMETHING IN THE NEWSPAPER, SOMETHING IN A SITUATION IN MY LIFE THAT'S AFFECTING ME IN SOME WAY, IT SPARKS DIFFERENT CREATIVE IDEAS IN ME, AND IT'S MY THERAPY TO SOMEHOW PUT THEM OUT IN POETRY. YES, RIGHT. I WAS NEVER VERY GOOD AT ENGLISH, BUT I'M A FLUENT SIGNER. AND SO THAT MEANS THAT MY ART, WHEN I TRIED TO WRITE SOMETHING, I WOULD HAVE TO ASK SOMEBODY ELSE FOR THEIR FEEDBACK TO TELL ME IF IT WAS RIGHT OR NOT. THEREFORE, IT'S NOT REALLY MY ART IF I NEED SOMEBODY ELSE TO GIVE IT CREDIBILITY AND SAY, "NO, YOU HAVE TO FIX THIS OR CHANGE THIS." WHERE'S THE ART IN THAT? BUT WITH SIGN LANGUAGE, NOBODY CAN TELL ME I'M WRONG. THAT'S MY STUFF, MY TURF, MY LANGUAGE, AND NOBODY CAN CRITICIZE ME. AND THAT'S GREAT. SO I DECIDED ENGLISH IS NOT THE WAY I NEEDED TO GO. I SHOULD CONCENTRATE ON WHERE MY STRENGTHS LIE AND CREATE IN SIGN LANGUAGE AND PLAY WITH THAT. IT'S BEEN FANTASTIC. NO. A MIXTURE. I WAS PLAYING WITH LANGUAGE, PLAYING WITH THE LANGUAGE ITSELF-- ABC STORIES, HANDSHAPES... STORYTELLING, JOKES, ALL DIFFERENT SORTS OF GENRES OF LITERATURE AND SIGN LANGUAGE. I STARTED OUT WITH POETRY BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WAS INTERESTING TO ME AT THE TIME, THE ART OF THE POEM ITSELF, HOW TO STRUCTURE IT, HOW TO SIGN IT. I FOUND THAT REALLY INTERESTING AT THE TIME. YES. I WAS LEARNING FROM PATRICK GRAYBILL, FROM CLASSES I WAS TAKING FROM HIM IN CREATIVE LANGUAGE, AND IN THERE HE EXPLAINED MORE ABOUT HANDSHAPES AND THE WORD CHOICES YOU WOULD EMPLOY AND KEEPING THINGS SIMPLE. AND THE POEMS WOULD GROW FROM THOSE STRUCTURAL ELEMENTS. HMM, AT THAT TIME, WELL... YEAH, IN THE BEGINNING, I DON'T THINK THAT WAS MUCH OF AN INFLUENCE. I THINK IT WAS A NEW IDEA TO ME. BUT LATER, AROUND 1980, WHEN I WAS INVOLVED WITH SUNSHINE TOO, I WAS TRANSLATING POEMS FROM DOROTHY MILES. THERE WAS A POEM CALLED "SKUNK." AND I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO SIGN IT. I THOUGHT IF I COULD DO IT IN ENGLISH, THAT WOULD BE FINE, BUT I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING ELSE. I FELT THAT I NEEDED TO BECOME A POET, BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT. IT TOOK A WHILE TO DEVELOP AS A POET. I HAD TO PICK UP THOSE SKILLS ALONG THE WAY, AND IT TOOK YEARS. THE ART HAD TO MORPH. YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE IF SOMEBODY PAINTS. YOU KNOW, THE FIRST TIME YOU PAINT, IT'S VERY NAIVE AND, YOU KNOW, RUDIMENTARY, AND IT TAKES YEARS TO BECOME MORE SOPHISTICATED AT THAT ART. IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME THING WITH POETRY. AND NOW I FEEL EXTREMELY ADEPT AT IT, BUT I LOOK AT MY YOUNGER WORK, AND IT LOOKS LIKE YOUNGER WORK. I HAD SO MANY INFLUENCES OVER THE YEARS. HARD TO NAME THEM ALL. I WOULD START WITH PATRICK, OF COURSE, AND THEN BOB PANARA BECAUSE I TOOK HIS DEAF LITERATURE CLASS AND HE TALKED ABOUT TRANSLATION AND HOW TO MOVE FROM A TEXT TO A SIGNED RENDITION SUPPOSE OF HAIKU AND-- OH, WHAT WAS THE OTHER ONE? "SPOON RIVER." "SPOON RIVER," YEP. WE LEARNED FROM THAT TEXT. SO WE WERE USING LITERATURE AS A STIMULUS MATERIAL TO SIGN CREATIVELY. LITERATURE... I THINK LITERATURE IS CEREBRAL, IT'S FROM THE MIND. BUT REALLY, IT'S TELLING STORIES AND TELLING THE HISTORY OF A PEOPLE. IT'S FASCINATING REALLY THAT SOMETHING CAN HAPPEN IN SOCIETY, SOMETHING COULD OCCUR, SOMEONE PUTS IT DOWN, AND THEN IT BECOMES AN HISTORICAL ARTIFACT. I JUST FIND THAT'S INTERESTING, AND THAT'S HOW LITERATURE EVOLVES. SO LATER, I MET PETER COOK. AND HE, AS I, WAS A MAJOR IN GRAPHIC DESIGN. I WAS A LITTLE OLDER THAN HE WAS, BUT WE WERE BOTH AT RIT. AND THERE WERE A LOT OF FOLKS IN NTID AT THE TIME WHO WERE EXPERIMENTING WITH LOOKING AT MOVIES. AND YOU MIGHT THINK IT'S FUNNY CALLING MOVIES, YOU KNOW, A KIND OF POETIC ART FORM, BUT... RIT AND THE ART DEPARTMENT, IF THERE WERE PAINTINGS I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND, I WAS GETTING MORE EXPOSURE TO ART CLASSES WHERE WE WERE DISCUSSING THEM AND ANALYZING ART. AND IT JUST BECAME SO CLEAR TO ME THAT IT WAS AN ART FORM, THAT POETRY COULD BE. THEN I MET STEFA WHO WAS THE DANCE TEACHER, STEFA Z. THERE WAS ANOTHER TEACHER BEFORE HER. I CAN'T REMEMBER. HER LAST NAME WAS KALA, MAYBE. ANYWAY, I CAN'T REMEMBER HER NAME, BUT SHE WAS A PERFORMING ARTS AND DANCE TEACHER ALSO. AND SO I WAS LEARNING MORE ABOUT DANCE AND HOW LANGUAGE WAS ACTUALLY A FORM OF DANCE AS WELL. LANGUAGE IS A DANCE. THE WAY YOU COULD SHOW MAYBE EVEN A LEAF FALLING COULD BE A DANCE MOVEMENT. I WAS REALLY STRUCK BY THAT, THAT MY BODY ACTUALLY IS A FORM OF THE DANCE AND THE LANGUAGE PUT TOGETHER, AND THAT WHOLE PROCESS COULD BE CONCURRENT. STEFA, THE DANCE TEACHER, WOULD INTRODUCE A DANCE TO US, AND THERE WAS THIS ONE PERFORMANCE WHERE THERE WAS A VAT OF WATER ON STAGE AND SHE WAS JUST TWIRLING AROUND IN A STAGE LIGHT OFF TO THE SIDE. I WATCHED THIS PERFORMANCE. THERE'S A VAT OF WATER, AND I'M WATCHING HER TWIRL AROUND AT THE SAME TIME ON THE STAGE. NOTHING ELSE IS REALLY GOING ON. SHE'S JUST TWIRLING AROUND AND AROUND AND AROUND IN THE SPOTLIGHT. AND IT REALLY JUST WASHED ALL OVER ME, THE EXPERIENCE OF WHAT THIS WAS. I CAN'T SAY I UNDERSTOOD IT, BUT UNDERSTANDING WASN'T THE POINT. IT WAS THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING THERE, BEING PRESENT THERE. I UNDERSTOOD THE WAY I COULD PERHAPS DEVELOP MY ART. NOT REALLY. MY EARLY POETRY... I WOULDN'T SAY YOU COULD CALL IT ART. MAYBE IT WAS, I DON'T KNOW, STORIES OR--I MEAN, PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD IT, BUT NOW PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND MY WORK AT ALL. NOWADAYS THEY REALLY DON'T. IT'S THE SAME AS A WRITTEN POEM, RIGHT. A LOT OF PEOPLE READ IT AND THEY DON'T GET IT THE MOMENT THEY READ IT. THEY HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH IT MORE. IT'S THE SAME WITH MY WORK NOW. I THINK IT'S MORE SOPHISTICATED POETRY THAN I USED TO PERFORM, AND I DO ALL SORTS. HOW IT DEVELOPS. IF I WANTED TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, MY POEM "SWAN" FROM BACK IN THE DAY. YEP, YOU COULD LOOK AT IT AND SAY, "OK, I GET IT. THAT'S A SWAN, AND IT'S A BEAUTIFUL POEM." BUT THERE'S REALLY MORE ABSTRACT CONCEPTS THAT COULD BE EMPLOYED IN IT. BUT THAT ONE DIDN'T. IT WAS JUST A PRETTY IMAGE. AND I WANTED TO HAVE MORE EMBEDDED ABSTRACT IDEAS AND NUANCE WITHIN MY ART. I WANTED THE AUDIENCE TO APPRECIATE THE ART AND THE EXPERIENCE OF SEEING IT, BUT WHEN I WAS THINKING ABOUT DEAF PEOPLE WHO HISTORICALLY HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT OF THE ARTISTIC PROCESS-- SOMETIMES THEY COULDN'T FOLLOW PERFORMANCES OR UNDERSTAND THINGS. THEY MISSED THE POINT OF THINGS. IT'S VERY FRUSTRATING FOR THEM BECAUSE OF THESE YEARS OF BEING LEFT OUT OF THIS. SO I FEEL THE EXPERIENCE IS THE INSPIRING PART OF BEING PART OF A PERFORMANCE AND WATCHING IT. IF THERE'S SORROW OR HURT OR JOY OR WHATEVER, YOU WANT THAT EXPERIENCE TO BE CONVEYED. I THINK IT'S REALLY WORTHWHILE TO MAKE THAT ATTEMPT. AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO PUT THAT ENERGY OUT THERE AND GET THOSE EMOTIONS OUT. BUT OFTENTIMES, PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. I HAD ALREADY HAD A LOT OF POSITIVE EXPERIENCES FROM PERFORMING AT JAZZBERRY'S. THERE WAS SO MANY DEAF AND HEARING PEOPLE WHO WERE MIXING IN THOSE AUDIENCES. A GREAT EXCHANGE OF IDEAS FROM THAT REALLY SOCIAL SPACE THAT WAS DEAF AND HEARING. THE FEW TIMES I PERFORMED THERE, ONE TIME I DID WITH HOWIE SEAGO. HE WAS THERE. PETER COOK WAS THERE. PATRICK, VALLI, CLAYTON VALLI. JUST EVERYBODY TOGETHER. AND THEY REALLY APPRECIATED WHAT I WAS DOING. THEN I MOVED. I MOVED TO SWEDEN. MY POETRY CHANGED AS A RESULT OF THAT MOVE. AND I THOUGHT WHILE I WAS IN SWEDEN THAT EVERYTHING WOULD KEEP GROWING HERE. THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT. SO I WENT ON MY MERRY WAY. AND WHEN I CAME BACK TO VISIT, I WAS LOOKING FOR MORE POETRY. PETER COOK HAD MOVED TO CHICAGO AND... THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE I KNEW, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW WHO I WAS. THEY'RE LIKE, "OH, YOU'RE DEBBIE RENNIE? WHO ARE YOU?" OH. WELL, I HADN'T LIVED HERE FOR A LONG TIME. WHY WOULD I EXPECT THEY WOULD KNOW WHO I WAS? BUT SOMEHOW I THOUGHT THEY WOULD. I DID GET TAPED DOING SOME PERFORMANCES. AND I THINK THAT COSTUME CHANGES WERE A PART OF THAT PERFORMANCE, THE POEMS. I DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO SPOON-FEED PEOPLE DURING MY PERFORMANCES AND GIVE THEM SO MUCH EXPOSITION ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON. "OH, YOU KNOW, I'M TALKING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED "IN THIS COUNTRY. "A HUNDRED MEN RAPED A MENTALLY RETARDED WOMAN. ISN'T THAT AWFUL?" AND THEN EXPLAIN IT. I JUST WANT TO PUT THE PIECE OUT THERE. BUT THE AUDIENCE WANTS TO ASK QUESTIONS SOMETIMES, AND SO THEN I HAVE TO BE WILLING TO DO THAT. SO AFTER I PERFORMED BACK IN THE DAY, I WOULD SAY, "ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS?" ONE TIME THIS DEAF MAN STOOD UP AND HE SAID, "I DON'T UNDERSTAND A THING YOU'RE DOING, "AND I'M SURE THAT 90% OF US DON'T UNDERSTAND YOU IN THIS AUDIENCE." AND I WAS SO TAKEN ABACK BY THAT. OK, ALL RIGHT, I GET IT, YOU'RE FRUSTRATED. IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND THESE SORTS OF THINGS, SAME THING AS READING A BOOK, AND YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT IN THE MOMENT. YOU HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH IT. I DO GET IT. SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO READ SOMETHING AGAIN AND AGAIN UNTIL THE MEANING BECOMES CLEAR AND YOU APPRECIATE ITS ART. AND IT'S THE SAME HERE WITH PERFORMANCE, AND SO DISCUSSION'S REALLY GREAT. SO I ASKED HIM, YOU KNOW, "WHAT THE MEANING OF ORANGE?" HE KIND OF COULDN'T ANSWER, AND THEN OTHER PEOPLE STARTED KIND OF JUMPING INTO THE DISCUSSION AND THEN OTHER QUESTIONS WERE ASKED. AND I THINK THAT IT WAS GREAT BECAUSE AS WE WERE ABLE TO HAVE THIS DIALOGUE, MORE PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD THE IDEA OF ART AND WHAT POETRY WAS. AND PETER COOK WAS SO RELIEVED THAT THIS WAS GOING ON BECAUSE THE FUROR DIED DOWN AND EVERYBODY CALMED DOWN, BUT IT WAS REALLY KIND OF FUNNY. AND THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN ONCE. I MEAN, THIS WAS SOMETHING RECURRENT. AND I EXPERIENCED THIS IN EUROPE, TOO, AUDIENCES BEING VERY FRUSTRATED, NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT I WAS DOING, WANTING TO TALK AFTERWARDS OR HAVE A WORKSHOP. AND SO SOMETIMES I WOULD PROVIDE A WORKSHOP AND WE'D HAVE THESE DISCUSSIONS, THEN THEY WOULD SEE MY WORK AND UNDERSTAND IT BETTER. AND THROUGH THAT PROCESS, THEY UNDERSTOOD MORE OF WHAT I WAS UP TO. IT WAS REALLY A GOOD THING OVERALL. YES. I WAS SO FORTUNATE THAT I MOVED TO SWEDEN BECAUSE THEY REALLY BELIEVE IN ME THERE. IT'S GREAT. THEY BELIEVE IN ME. IT WASN'T EASY. WHEN I FIRST GOT THERE, "OH, WHO'S THIS AMERICAN? WHAT ARE YOU ALL ABOUT? ONE OF THOSE EGOTISTICAL AMERICANS AGAIN." BUT I HAD TO BE VERY PATIENT, WORK REALLY HARD, AND SHOW THEM WHO I WAS. STARTED OUT TEACHING CHILDREN, AND THEN OVER TIME AS MY TEACHING GREW AND MY NAME GREW OVER THE YEARS, THEY FINALLY KNEW WHO I WAS AS POET. NOT AS AN ACTOR. I'M KNOW THERE AS A POET. THAT'S FUNNY BECAUSE HERE I'M KNOWN MORE AS AN ACTRESS, YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S KIND OF WHAT I WAS KNOWN FOR IN THE STATES, BUT OVER THERE, I'M KNOWN AS A POET. NOW, I STARTED, LET'S SEE, 1996 DEVELOPING AN EDUCATIONAL VIDEO. AND THIS VIDEO IS USED IN ALL THE SCHOOLS FOR THE DEAF IN SWEDEN TO TEACH DEAF CHILDREN SIGN LANGUAGE AND POETRY. THE CURRICULUM EMBEDS POETRY WITHIN IT. THEY FEEL THAT... SWEDISH DEAF CHILDREN NEED TO LEARN SIGN LANGUAGE POETRY IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE THE SAME WAY THEY HAVE TO READ WRITTEN SWEDISH POETRY AND THE SAME WAY WE DO THAT WITH ENGLISH HERE. SO ALL THE SCHOOLS FOR THE DEAF IN SWEDEN ACTUALLY USE THIS CURRICULUM, AND IN THE VIDEO IS MY WORK. HAVING CREATED THIS DVD, THE TEACHERS USE IT, THEY SHOW THE POEMS, THEY DISCUSS WITH KIDS, AND IT'S REALLY AMAZING. FROM TEACHING JUST A CLASS AT A TIME, NOW THERE ARE 5 SCHOOLS FOR THE DEAF IN SWEDEN ALL OVER THE COUNTRY WHO UTILIZE THIS DVD WITH A WHOLE UNIT ABOUT SIGN LANGUAGE POETRY WITHIN IT, AND THAT'S JUST SO COOL. THAT'S A REAL POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT. AND SO IT MEANS THAT POETRY IS STILL ALIVE THERE, AND IT'S NOT GOING TO DIE. THAT'S GREAT. YEAH, IDENTITY IS REALLY CRUCIAL. I THINK THAT SOMETIMES SIGN LANGUAGE QUALITY-- AND I USE THIS SIGN FOR QUALITY. RATHER THAN A "Q" ON THE CHEST, I USE THIS SIGN BECAUSE QUALITY, TO SIGN ANYWAY, IS MORE OF A TACTILE FEELING. LIKE AN EXAMPLE OF IT WOULD BE IN AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE YOU MIGHT SIGN "A BALL HIT ME." YOU MIGHT SIGN THE BALL THIS WAY OR THIS WAY OR THIS WAY. AND YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT THOSE BALLS WOULD LOOK LIKE HITTING ME IN THE HEAD BY THE DIFFERENT SIGNS I USE. AND I FEEL THOSE NUANCES ARE BEING LOST SOMEHOW. I THINK THAT SPEECH IS ALWAYS MORE IMPORTANT, AS PREFERABLE TO SIGN. IN SWEDEN, THEY HAVE A VERY STRONG IDEA THAT SWEDISH SIGN LANGUAGE AND WRITTEN AND SPOKEN SWEDISH ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE. THEY THINK THEY'RE EQUAL SOMEWHAT. WELL, IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS, WHETHER THEY'RE SEEN AS EQUAL OR IF THE SIGN LANGUAGE WILL BE MAYBE DEMEANED A LITTLE BIT, BUT THE QUALITY OF THE SIGNING IS RESPECTED FOR THIS MOMENT ANYWAY, AND IT'S VERY MUCH TIED INTO THE NOTION OF ONE'S IDENTITY. WITH COCHLEAR IMPLANTS, I KNOW MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE THEM AND THEY STILL SIGN AT THE SAME TIME. SEEMS LIKE 50% OF THEM SIGN AND 50% DON'T. THERE'S A LOT OF KIDS WHO CAN TALK WHO HAVE COCHLEAR IMPLANTS, BUT THEY STILL PREFER TO SIGN. AND THEY'LL SIGN IN SWEDISH SIGN LANGUAGE, OF COURSE. MY DAUGHTER IS DEAF. SHE DOES NOT HAVE A COCHLEAR IMPLANT, AND SHE SIGNS, AND HER SIGN LANGUAGE QUALITY, HOW SHE SIGNS IS QUITE DIFFERENT BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T SPEAK AND SHE DOESN'T HAVE A COCHLEAR IMPLANT. IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE IF YOU HAVE DEAF PARENTS OR NOT. SO A LOT OF DEAF PARENTS SOMETIMES STILL IMPLANT THEIR KIDS, BUT THEY'RE SIGNING AT HOME, AND THEY HAVE BOTH. SO THE SWEDISH INTRUSION ON THE LANGUAGE WILL STILL BE THERE, BUT THEY'RE STILL SIGNING. I THINK THAT IT DEPENDS ON WHO THE PERSON IS. IT'S VERY INDIVIDUAL. BUT SOMETIMES THE ART IS LOST BY HAVING MORE OF THE WRITTEN AND SPOKEN LANGUAGE OVERLAID. SO IT MEANS THAT THERE ARE FEWER POEMS BEING CREATED ALL OVER THE WORLD. YES. I FEEL MY IDENTITY IS VERY MUCH TIED TO MY POETRY. I CAN SIGN JUST PROSAICALLY MY EVERYDAY SIGN LANGUAGE, AND IT'S VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE PROCESS OF BECOMING A POET BECAUSE THROUGH POETRY I'VE FOUND SO MUCH MORE RICHNESS. I MEAN, ASL OR ANY SIGN LANGUAGE, IT'S INCREDIBLE. YOU KNOW, THE OLD IDEA BEFORE, LIKE, "OH, YOU'RE SIGNING WELL ENOUGH. SIGN'S OK. IT'S JUST FUNCTIONAL. WHATEVER." YOU DON'T REALIZE IT'S A HEAD-TO-TOE LANGUAGE. I MEAN, EVERY PIECE OF YOUR BODY SCREAMS SIGN LANGUAGE. THE WAY YOU WOULD SIGN A PERSON STANDING, BUT THEN YOU COULD HAVE THEM MOVING AROUND. IT'S THE SAME WAY THAT PEOPLE USE INTONATION WHEN THEY SPEAK ENGLISH OR THEY SPEAK ANY LANGUAGE. IT'S SO ICONIC. THERE'S SO MANY PICTURES. I CAN BUILD A MOUNTAIN AND STAND ON TOP OF IT, THEN I CAN MOVE THAT DOWN AND SHOW ANOTHER CAMERA ANGLE THAT'S EVEN WITH THE PERSON ON TOP OF THE PINNACLE OF THAT MOUNTAIN. I KIND OF FEEL LIKE, "I'M DEAF, SO WHAT?" IT'S PART OF MY IDENTITY. AND IDENTITY FOR ME IS VERY MUCH TIED TO THE POETRY THAT I CREATE, WHICH IS GREAT. I'M DEAF. YEAH, OK. IT'S A PROBLEM. IT HAPPENS. SO WHAT? I THINK THAT EVERY PERSON HAS SOME SORT OF DIFFICULTY IN THEIR LIFE, DOESN'T MATTER WHO THEY ARE. BUT I FEEL FINE ABOUT BEING DEAF. I WANT TO PROUDLY SHOW THAT. I DON'T NEED SYMPATHY FOR IT. SO MY IDENTITY AND MY POETRY, THEY'RE TIED TOGETHER, AND I FEEL THAT I CAN USE THOSE TO SHOW MORE TO DEAF PEOPLE ABOUT HOW THEY CAN FEEL PRIDE AS WELL. I FEEL PRIDE MYSELF AS A DEAF PERSON, AND I CAN SHARE THAT. JIM COHN. WELL, HA HA! HE DID HAVE INFLUENCE ON ME, FOR SURE. HIS ART WAS WRITTEN, OF COURSE, THE WAY HE CREATED POETRY. HOW DID I MEET HIM? I REMEMBER THAT HE WAS WITH DONNA, AND THE TWO OF THEM WERE IN THAT BREEZEWAY BETWEEN BUILDING 7A AND 7B. I THINK THAT THEY WERE COMING DOWN THE RAMP, AND IT WAS SO BEAUTIFUL. THEY WERE COMING DOWN THIS RAMP TOGETHER, AND THEY'RE BOTH JUST SUCH BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE. AND DONNA HAD THAT AMAZING, BRILLIANT SMILE. AND SHE AND JIM WERE WALKING TOWARDS ME. AND THEY WERE JUST SO BEAUTIFUL. AND WE STARTED TALKING. THEY SAID, "OH, YOU'RE A PERFORMER?" I SAID YES. AND, "WHAT'S YOUR WORK LIKE?" I MEAN, I STILL HAVE THAT PICTURE IN MY MIND OF THAT DAY, SEEING THEM APPROACHING ME. I THINK ALL OF US WENT TO WRITERS AND BOOKS. IT'S NOT WHERE WRITERS AND BOOKS IS NOW. IT WAS AT THIS OTHER PLACE, THEIR PREVIOUS LOCATION. YEAH, IT WAS WRITERS AND BOOKS, FOR SURE. IT WAS IN ANOTHER PLACE. IT WASN'T WHERE THEY'RE LOCATED NOW. AND THERE WAS THIS BIG AUDIENCE. AND WE WERE WAITING AND WAITING AND WAITING FOR JIM TO COME, 'CAUSE I WAS GONNA LISTEN TO HIM-- WATCH HIM TO READ, AND I'M KIND OF CONFUSED, LIKE, "WHY ARE WE WAITING?" I DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND THAT-- NOT UNTIL MUCH LATER LOOKING BACK, BUT THAT WAS JIM, AND IT MADE PERFECT SENSE THAT WE WERE WAITING. BUT HE WAS NERVOUS. HE WAS OUT THERE SMOKING. AND HE FINALLY SAUNTERS UP TO THE STAGE, YOU KNOW, STARTS GETTING HIS MIKE READY AND READING, AND IT WAS SO INTERESTING. IT WAS GREAT. THERE WAS AN INTERPRETER THERE. I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH INTERPRETER IT WAS FROM BACK THEN. WHOEVER IT WAS INTERPRETED HIS POETRY READING, AND IT WAS JUST AMAZING. I CAN'T SAY I UNDERSTOOD IT. BUT THE EXPERIENCE, AGAIN, NOT UNDERSTANDING, BUT JUST THE FEELING OF IT WAS REALLY PROFOUND. SO LATER, OVER TIME, HE WOULD COME AND ASK ME ONCE IN A WHILE, YOU KNOW, "WHY DON'T YOU TAPE YOUR WORK? COME ON." I WAS RESISTANT. I DIDN'T WANT TO. I WAS REALLY AFRAID THAT SOMEBODY ELSE MIGHT EVEN COPY MY WORK, AND I DIDN'T WANT THAT. REALLY, NOBODY CAN COPY MY WORK, BUT THAT'S WHAT I WAS WORRIED ABOUT BACK THEN. HE WAS COMING UP WITH PUBLICATIONS AT THE TIME, AND HE HAD THIS ONE BOOK, AND IT WAS FEATURING PATRICK, PETER, AND ME, AND HE WANTED US TO WRITE OUR POEMS. WE HAD EACH WRITTEN A FEW POEMS THAT HE WAS PUBLISHING. WE EACH HAD A COLUMN ARRAYED NEXT TO EACH OTHER IN THIS BOOK, PUT IN LIKE A SERIES. AND JIM ORGANIZED THIS. I WAS SO HONORED THAT HE WANTED TO INCLUDE ME IN THIS BECAUSE I DIDN'T TEND TO WRITE MY POEMS. IT WASN'T MY ART. SO I THOUGHT IT INTERESTING THAT HE WANTED ME TO WRITE IT DOWN IN A WRITTEN FORMAT. AND THEN HE'S THE ONE WHO GOT THE WHOLE NATIONAL DEAF POETRY CONFERENCE GOING, FIRST ASL POETRY CONFERENCE. AND THAT HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON ME. WE WERE TRYING TO SHOW EVERYBODY WHAT WE WERE DOING AND WHAT ASL POETRY WAS. AND PEOPLE CAME FROM ALL OVER. WE HAD DISCUSSIONS. ELLA MAE LENTZ WAS THERE, VALLI WAS THERE... PATRICK, ME. I DON'T THINK HOWIE SEAGO WAS THERE. HE WASN'T IN IT. I THINK HOWIE SEAGO WAS WITH CHAZ. HE WAS PERFORMING WITH CHAZ. THEY HAD SORT OF A NIGHTCLUB ROUTINE THING THAT THEY WERE DOING. THEY WEREN'T PART OF THIS. LET'S SEE, 3, 4, 5 OF US. RIGHT, THERE WAS THE 5 OF US THERE. AND IT FELT LIKE FINALLY WE HAD FOUND EACH OTHER. WE ALL WERE SO EXCITED TO HAVE FOUND EACH OTHER, ALL THESE POETS. CLAYTON VALLI BELIEVED IN ME. IT WAS AMAZING. HE SAW ME AS A POET AND WHAT I WAS DOING AS LITERARY, AND HE VALIDATED ME. I WAS SO FORTUNATE TO HAVE HIM. NOW, HE WAS A LINGUIST, OF COURSE. AND HE WAS TRYING TO PROVE THAT ASL HAD POETRY... AND THAT POETRY COULD BE PART OF ASL, AND THIS WASN'T JUST THIS CRAZY FLY-BY-NIGHT IDEA WE WERE COMING UP WITH, THAT HE HAD LINGUISTIC VALIDATION. IT'S SO SAD THAT HE'S GONE, THAT WE LOST HIM. HE WAS A VERY IMPORTANT PERSON TO ME. I WANT TO TELL YOU, IN SWEDEN IT WAS NOT EASY TO GET A POETRY SCENE GOING THERE. IN STOCKHOLM, THE UNIVERSITY THERE, THE DEAF PEOPLE THERE BASICALLY SAID, "I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT. WE DON'T WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS POETRY THING." THERE WAS NO RESPECT FOR IT. THERE WAS NO BELIEF IN IT. NOT AT ALL. SO IT WASN'T EASY TO GET THAT IDEA GOING AND GIVE IT SOME TRACTION. THERE WAS A PERSON FROM STOCKHOLM UNIVERSITY WHO ACTUALLY CAME AND SAW VALLI PERFORM AND ACTUALLY SAW HIM GIVE A LECTURE ONE TIME. THEY ASKED VALLI, "WHO IS A TRUE POET IN YOUR ESTIMATION, A SIGN POET?" AND HE NAMED ME. HE SAID DEBBIE. AND SO THIS GUY WENT BACK TO STOCKHOLM AND TOLD EVERYBODY, "DEBBIE RENNIE'S A POET." SO HE AGREED WITH THAT. AND I WAS SO RELIEVED BECAUSE I'D BEEN WORKING TIRELESSLY TO TRY TO GET THIS IDEA SOME TRACTION, AND, I MEAN, IT MIGHT HAVE SEEMED LIKE IT WAS EASY, BUT IT WAS A LONG SLOG OF BEING VERY PATIENT FOR YEARS. IT WAS A BRAVE THING TO DO. BUT I HAVE TO DO WHAT I BELIEVE IN, EVEN THOUGH IT WASN'T EASY. INFLUENCES. WELL... THERE ARE A LOT. I'M INFLUENCED BY IDEAS. I LOOK AT OTHER POETS' STYLES. AND IT'S JUST AS IF SOMEBODY WHO IS A HEARING AUTHOR WOULD LOOK AT DIFFERENT STYLES OF WRITING AND LOOK AT THOSE AND MAKE COMPARISONS. I DO THE SAME THING AND LOOK AT OTHER PEOPLE'S. SOME PEOPLE'S I LIKE AND SOME OTHER FOLKS I DON'T LIKE, AND I HAVE TO JUDGE WHICH OF THOSE INFLUENCES I WANT TO TAKE IN TO MY OWN WORK. I REALLY LIKE METAPHOR. SOMEBODY'S REALLY GOOD WITH METAPHOR, THAT STRIKES ME, AND I WANT TO USE MORE METAPHORS IN MY WORK. RHYTHM. ELLA USES A LOT OF RHYTHM IN HER POEMS. AND I WONDER, HOW CAN I PLAY WITH RHYTHM MORE IN MY WORK ALSO? PATRICK HAS THIS INTERESTING SIMULTANEOUS USE OF DIFFERENT HANDSHAPES, WHICH IS REALLY COOL. YOU KNOW, HE'S GOT THE ONE IN REFLECTION WITH THE ROCKET GOING UP AND THE TEAR GOING DOWN THE FACE, VERY CAREFULLY CHOOSING THE SIGNS AND CONSTRUCTING THE POEMS. PETER HAS A LOT OF MOVEMENT PLACE TO PLACE, SO HE'LL TALK ABOUT SOMETHING GOING ON IN THE U.S. AND SOMETHING GOING ON AT THE SAME TIME IN SOUTH AMERICA AND BE ABLE TO SWITCH FROM DIFFERENT LOCATIONS JUST IN HIS BODY. SO IT'S INTERESTING TO EDUCATE PEOPLE IN SWEDEN ABOUT THESE DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES THAT I'VE SEEN-- RHYTHM AND SIMULTANEOUS SIGN PRODUCTION, FORM, MOVEMENT, REPETITION. JUST A MYRIAD OF DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES THAT I'VE INCORPORATED IN MY WORK. ANOTHER INFLUENCE, I HAVE TO SAY, IS PETER... PETER COOK. WE WORK TOGETHER. AND ALSO KENNY LERNER WAS INVOLVED IN THIS. THE THREE OF US WOULD COME UP WITH IDEAS. KENNY WOULD SUGGEST SOMETHING. HE HAD A STEVIE WONDER SONG THAT HE WAS EXPLAINING TO ME ONE DAY. I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT, OF COURSE, BUT HE SHOWED ME THE LINES, AND THEN WE CHANGED THE LINES AROUND OF THE SONG SO THAT THE STORY WAS MORE COHESIVE. AND KENNY SAID, "WHY DON'T YOU CHANGE STUFF AROUND "IN YOUR POEMS, LIKE REORDER WHAT YOU'RE DOING SO THAT THE STORY IS TOLD IN A DIFFERENT WAY?" SO WE THOUGHT, OK, LET'S DO THAT. SO WE HAD THIS ONE STORY, AND THEN WE MOVED THINGS AROUND. WE LITERALLY DID, SO THERE WAS MORE REPETITION OF CERTAIN OF THE ELEMENTS. AND THEN THE LAST PART WOULD BRING IT ALL TOGETHER AND TIE IT IN IN THIS REALLY NEAT WAY. AND I STILL USE THAT TECHNIQUE, I STILL USE THAT IDEA SOMETIMES. IT WAS REALLY NICE. THAT POEM WAS CALLED "HAMBURG," AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE BEST ONES. "HAMBURG." PETER AND I PERFORMED THAT TOGETHER. WE WORKED ON THAT. AND THAT WAS JUST AMAZING. WE HAVEN'T DONE IT SINCE THEN. THE OTHER ONE--I'M TRYING TO THINK OF WHAT THE TITLE WAS-- UH, "SMOKE..." "BIG WORLD TO SMALL WORLD," I THINK, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. "BIG WORLD, SMALL WORLD." THAT WAS REALLY NEAT. AND WE DID THAT. AND WHEN I SHOWED THAT ONE IN SWEDEN-- AND THAT WAS SO COOL. PEOPLE WERE COMPLETELY FLOORED BY IT. IT WAS GREAT! NOW, LATER PETER AND I WORKED TEACHING IN NORWAY. WE HAD THIS WORKSHOP WE WERE PUTTING ON. WE FOUND THAT THE POETRY WOULD BE INTERESTING IF WE TALKED MORE ABOUT CLASSIFIERS, BECAUSE CLASSIFIERS ARE AN INTEGRAL PART OF SIGN LANGUAGE EXPRESSION. AND THEY'RE REALLY RICH IN THEIR LINGUISTIC CAPABILITIES. THERE'S A LOT OF MIME INVOLVED IN IT WITH CLASSIFIERS. IF YOU'RE WALKING DOWN THE STREET, I'M WATCHING MYSELF WALK DOWN THE STREET LIKE A YOUNG KID. THAT'S A GESTURE, NOT A SIGN, REALLY. OR YOU CAN SHOW SOMEBODY WALKING ON AN ICY SURFACE. YOU'VE GOT THE SURFACE, BUT WHAT'S THE SIGN THAT YOU'RE GOING TO USE TO SHOW THAT MORE? YOU KNOW, SIGN LANGUAGE HAS SO MANY DIFFERENT NUANCES AND SUCH RICHNESS. EVERYBODY KNOWS WHEN YOU'RE WALKING DOWN THE STREET IF YOU MIME IT. BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO SHOW IT FROM DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW, DIFFERENT ANGLES, YOU CAN SHOW THE FEET WITH YOUR HANDS LIKE THAT. YOU CAN SHOW THE TREES GOING BY. THEN WE KNOW A PERSON'S WALKING. SO YOU'RE CHANGING FROM DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, AND CLASSIFIERS HELP US WITH THAT. PETER WAS TALKING A LOT ABOUT FILM TECHNIQUES IN HIS WORK AND HOW THAT DEVELOPED IN THE SAME WAY THAT POETRY DEVELOPS. SO FILM, OF COURSE... IF YOU THINK ABOUT "THE MATRIX" AND HOW THAT SHOWED GOING BACKWARDS AND FORWARDS. I MEAN, THE IMAGERY AND HOW IMAGINATIVE THAT WAS AND HOW WE CAN SHOW THAT IN SIGN LANGUAGE, TOO, IT'S AMAZING, THAT WHOLE IDEA OF, YOU KNOW, IN "THE MATRIX" WHEN NEO IS FLYING, AND HE SLOWS DOWN BUT SOMETHING GOES BY HIM. THAT'S A LOT OF PLAY. YOU CAN PUT THAT IN SIGN LANGUAGE, TOO. SO A LOT OF FILMIC STYLES CAN GO INTO IT. PETER AND I, WOW, WHEN WE GET TOGETHER, IT'S GREAT, BUT WE LIVE SO FAR APART NOW. IT'S NICE TO BUMP INTO HIM AGAIN AND AGAIN HERE AND THERE. IT'S REALLY COOL WHEN WE DO. AND THEN IT ALWAYS KIND OF SPRINGS UP NEW IDEAS FOR US. WE GROW MORE. I'VE TAUGHT WITH DEAF KIDS, HEARING KIDS, ADULTS, EVERYBODY. AND I ALWAYS GET NEW IDEAS. AND IT ALWAYS SPARKS NEW IDEAS WITHIN ME WHEN I MEET DIFFERENT PEOPLE. I BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD INSPIRES ME. THE NEWS, CURRENT EVENTS, EVERYTHING GIVES ME IDEAS. THERE'S NOT JUST ONE INFLUENCE THAT GETS ME GOING POETICALLY. LET'S SEE. WHEN I BECAME A VEGETARIAN, IT WAS--LET'S SEE. I WAS AT A POETRY FESTIVAL-- NO, NO. OH, IT WAS THE CLEARWATER FESTIVAL. THAT'S WHAT IT WAS. SOMEBODY WAS HANDING OUT BROCHURES ABOUT ANIMAL RIGHTS AND ANIMAL WELFARE. AND I TOOK ONE. AND THEY WERE LOOKING FOR MEMBERS, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO WOULD BECOME PART OF THIS VEGETARIAN SOCIETY. AND IN THIS BROCHURE, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT VEAL. NOW, I HAD NO AWARENESS OF WHERE VEAL CAME FROM AT THE TIME. I DIDN'T REALIZE WE WERE EATING BABY COWS, BABY ANIMALS. YOU KNOW, THEY TAKE THEM BEFORE THEY BECOME ADULTS, AND THEN THEY PROCESS THEM, AND WE EAT THEM. SO I WANTED SOMEHOW TO CREATE A POEM THAT WOULD SHOW CALF, C-A-L-F, C-A-L-F AGAIN AND AGAIN, FINGERSPELL THAT WORD OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AND THAT'S HOW I CAME UP WITH THE DIFFERENT ELEMENTS OF THAT PARTICULAR POEM, BECAUSE I WANTED TO SHOW THAT WE DEFINITELY EAT CALVES. I HADN'T KNOWN ANYTHING ABOUT IT MYSELF. I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE VEAL CAME FROM. I DIDN'T KNOW IT CAME FROM CALVES. SO IT REALLY HIT ME HARD LEARNING ABOUT THAT. YEAH. IT'S A PRETTY POWERFUL POEM. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE--HA HA!-- PRETTY SHOCKED BY IT, AND A LOT OF THEM WERE INSPIRED TO STOP EATING VEAL, SO I GUESS IT WORKED. "BOYCOTT VEAL" IS THE TITLE OF IT, AND IT DID WORK. YEAH. YES. I WANTED TO FINGERSPELL THE WORD MANY TIMES. YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES WITH FINGERSPELLED STORIES, OR WORD ALONE STORIES, THEY'RE CUTE, THEY'RE FUNNY. THERE'S ONE ABOUT PIANO-- P-I-A-N-O. AND THERE'S SOME WAY YOU DO THAT TO SHOW HOW YOU'RE PLAYING A PIANO. SO THEY'RE FUN, AND THEY'RE WITTY. BUT I DECIDED I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT MORE POWERFUL. SO CALVES ARE CUTE, BUT, YOU KNOW, IRONICALLY, THEY HAVE A LIFE FULL OF PAIN, AND IT'S A CONTRADICTION. AND LIFE IS FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS. SO I WANTED TO EMPHASIZE THAT AND JUXTAPOSE THAT. YES. DONNA AND I WERE DRIVING, I REMEMBER, AND I WAS LOOKING AT THE BEAUTIFUL SCENERY. I WAS REALLY THINKING ABOUT "MOTHER EARTH," ALL THAT WAS ARRAYED AROUND ME AS WE DROVE DOWN THE ROAD. I WAS REALLY TAKEN BY THE FLUTTERING OF THE TREES AND THE BRANCHES. SO I WAS LOOKING OUTSIDE THE WINDOWS OF THE CAR. YOU KNOW, WE'RE JUST DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD AND JUST REALLY THINKING ABOUT NATURE. AND I WAS TAKING DIFFERENT ELEMENTS OF NATURE AND PUTTING THEM TOGETHER, REALLY FOCUSING ON THE IDEA OF MOTHER EARTH. WELL, WHAT I WOULD DO IS I WOULD CREATE MY POETRY, AND THEN I WOULD TAPE IT. AND THEN DONNA KACHITES WOULD WATCH IT. AND SHE WOULD TAKE NOTES AS SHE WATCHED IT. I JUST LEFT THAT PART UP TO HER TO COME UP WITH THE WORDS. I WOULD CREATE IT. SHE'D SHOW ME THE WORDS, I WOULD APPROVE THEM. YOU KNOW, THEN WE WOULD PRACTICE TOGETHER. SHE WOULD MATCH THE WORD TO MY PERFORMANCE. AND IT TOOK A LONG TIME. AND THIS WAS IN HER FREE TIME. THERE WAS NO PAY INVOLVED AT ALL. IT WAS A LOT OF WORK. THAT'S VERY RARE TODAY. YOU WON'T FIND PEOPLE WILLING TO DO THAT. AND NOW I DON'T EVEN HAVE A VOICE INTERPRETER FOR MY POETRY. BACK THEN WHEN I WAS WITH DONNA, IT WAS SO AWESOME. BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS A REALLY WORTHWHILE THING TO HAVE EVERYBODY IN THE COMMUNITY INVOLVED, THAT DEAF AND HEARING PEOPLE COULD ENJOY A PERFORMANCE TOGETHER, THE DEAF PEOPLE WATCHING THE SIGNS AND THE HEARING PEOPLE HEARING A VOICE. THERE WERE DISCUSSIONS, ARGUMENTS, DISSENSIONS IN THE COMMUNITY ABOUT WHETHER IT WAS RIGHT OR WRONG TO ADD A VOICE AT THE SAME TIME AS A POEM WAS BEING PRESENTED. SO A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS ENSUED FROM THAT. BUT, FOR ME, I THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE EVERYBODY IN THE COMMUNITY PARTICIPATING IN THIS EVENT. I DIDN'T WANT ANYBODY EXCLUDED. I'LL BE PERFORMING IN JANUARY OF 2009, AND IT'S GOING TO BE A REALLY BIG VENUE, AND IT'S A REALLY BIG DEAL FOR ME. IT'S A SOLO SHOW, A SOLO PERFORMANCE. SWEDEN HAS A PROFESSIONAL THEATER OF THE DEAF. IT'S CALLED THE SILENT THEATER. AND THEY ACTUALLY HIRED ME, AND THEY PURCHASED MY WORK, MY POETRY. IT'S GOING TO BE FILMED. I'LL HAVE COSTUMES. I HAVE A DIRECTOR. IT'S A HUGE PRODUCTION, REALLY. I'M SO HONORED THAT THEY PURSUED ME AND WANTED ME FOR THIS. IT'S A TRAVELING SHOW. THEY DIDN'T ASK ME IF I WANTED A VOICE. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO HIRE ANYBODY BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, BACK IN THE DAY, LIKE I SAID, DONNA WORKED FOR FREE AND DIDN'T EXPECT ANY PAY AT ALL, NOR DID SHE GET ANY. SHE JUST TRANSLATED THIS FOR NO PAY AT ALL. THAT'S JUST WHAT IT WAS BACK THEN. IT WOULD COST A LOT NOW BECAUSE YOU'D HAVE TO BE, IN ESSENCE, PAYING TWO ACTORS-- ME AND A VOICER. SO WE CAME UP WITH A BRILLIANT IDEA OF HAVING CAPTIONS. SO FIRST WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS, ON THE SIDE OF THE STAGE, THERE'LL BE A SCREEN. AND THERE WILL BE THE WORDS, THE TEXT OF WHAT I'M PERFORMING IN SWEDISH, SO PEOPLE CAN READ THAT, AND THEN ONCE THEY'VE FINISHED READING, THE SCREEN WILL GO DARK, AND THEN THEY'LL WATCH ME, AND THEY'LL TRY TO PUT THAT TOGETHER THEMSELVES. OF COURSE, THE DEAF PEOPLE, IF THEY READ IT AND THEN THEY WATCH ME, IT'S HELPFUL FOR THEM, TOO, BECAUSE THEY'LL BE LEARNING TO READ SWEDISH BETTER, TOO. SO IT'S NICE. IT'S GREAT. IT'S HAVING TWO PERFORMANCES IN A SENSE. IT'S GREAT. IT'S A VERY NEAT CONCEPT. YES. KENNY--MOSTLY KENNY AND PETER AND I, THE THREE OF US, BECAUSE WE WERE ROOMMATES AT THAT TIME. WE WERE ALWAYS JUST GOING TO TOWN AND CREATING THINGS ALL THE TIME. AND I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH-- LET'S SEE-- THERE WAS ONE POEM THAT I THINK KENNY... WELL, HE WAS TALKING ABOUT-- MAYBE IT WAS JIM. I'M THINKING JIM WAS INVOLVED IN THIS. ANYWAY, ONE OF THEM WAS WORKING IN A MENTAL HOSPITAL. AND HE TOLD ME THIS STORY, AND I TOOK THAT STORY AND THEN USED THAT IN JUXTAPOSITION AND OVERLAP WITH THE HOLOCAUST WITH WHAT HAPPENED TO THE JEWS IN GERMANY. SO WE WORKED ON THAT ONE TOGETHER. I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER THE OTHER ONES. KENNY WAS MORE--HE WAS AN IDEA GUY: THE IDEAS WITHIN THE LANGUAGE. UM... WELL, HERE'S A GOOD EXAMPLE. WE TRIED TO PUT THIS ONE IMAGE IN A POEM OF A HAND SCRATCHING DOWN A WALL. OK, THAT'S A HAND SCRATCHING DOWN THE WALL, RIGHT? SO WE SAVED THAT IDEA. BUT THE FIRST THING YOU SEE IS NOT THAT PICTURE. YOU SEE SOMEBODY OUTLINING THOSE SCRATCHES IN THE WALL WITH THEIR FINGERS, SO YOU'RE SUGGESTING THE IDEA. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT CAUSED THOSE LINES IN THE WALL, BUT YOU'RE JUST SEEING THESE LINES IN THE WALL THAT ARE BEING OUTLINED BY A HAND. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S A HAND THAT SCRAPED DOWN THE SIDE OF THAT WALL AND CAUSED IT UNTIL LATER, AND THEN YOU REALIZE THAT IT WAS FROM THE SHOWERS-- OR WHAT THEY SAID WAS SHOWERS DURING THE HOLOCAUST, WHEN THEY GASSED THE JEWS. SO THE STORY ITSELF COULD EMBED THESE INTERESTING TECHNIQUES. YOU KNOW, IF I SHOW THAT RIGHT AWAY, IT WOULDN'T BE AS INTERESTING. KENNY SAID, "SAVE IT TILL LATER. SAVE THE BIG REVEAL UNTIL THE END." SO THE AUDIENCE IS PUZZLED, AND THEY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT A LITTLE BIT AND WORK A LITTLE HARDER. AND AT THE VERY END, IT ALL COMES TOGETHER, AND THEY UNDERSTAND. SO I OUTLINED THOSE LINES ON THE WALL, AND THEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS TILL THE END OF THE POEM. SOMETIMES KENNY WAS "TOO HEARING." I MEAN BY THAT NOT TOO HEARING... YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THESE THINGS. I'D HAD NO EDUCATION ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS HE TALKED ABOUT. AND I THOUGHT THAT, YOU KNOW, I'VE GOT THE SIGNS. I KNEW HOW TO SIGN, BUT I DIDN'T HAVE THOSE IDEAS THAT HE WAS ABLE TO GIVE ME. KENNY'S A VERY CREATIVE PERSON. HE IS ALWAYS COMING UP WITH NEW IDEAS, BUT THEY DIDN'T NECESSARILY CONNECT WITH DEAF AUDIENCES, SO HE WAS MORE OF AN ARTIST BUT AN ARTIST OF A DIFFERENT SORT. I THINK DEAF CULTURE MOVES ALONG, AND IT'S "SAFE." WELL, I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A MINUTE, MORE ABOUT DEAF CULTURE. THOSE WITHIN DEAF CULTURE KNOW THE RULES. THEY KNOW THE NORMS. IT'S A COMFORTABLE WORLD, AND IT KIND OF GOES ALONG SAFELY COMPARED TO THEIR PERCEPTION OF THE HEARING WORLD, WHERE THEY DON'T KNOW THE RULES. IT'S ALL NEW--NEW THOUGHTS, NEW IDEAS. AND THEY'RE SOMEWHAT TAKEN ABACK BY THOSE THINGS WHEN THEY'RE PRESENTED IN A CERTAIN WAY. BUT KENNY TAUGHT ME A LOT ABOUT THAT, AND THEN I, IN TURN, FELT I COULD PASS THAT ALONG TO DEAF AUDIENCES AND TEACH THEM. YES. YES. RIGHT, RIGHT. AT THAT TIME--AND THIS WAS A REALLY LONG TIME AGO-- IT'S HARD FOR ME TO REMEMBER AND BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN IT... I'M JUST TRYING TO THINK ABOUT HOW. IT'S LIKE IF YOU WERE GOING TO PAINT WITH WATERCOLOR. YOU OPEN YOUR TUBES, YOU LAY OUT YOUR COLORS ON YOUR PALETTE, AND THEN YOU JUST SEE WHAT HAPPENS AS YOU PLAY AROUND ON THE CANVAS. SOMETHING HAPPENS. SOMETHING POPS UP ON THAT CANVAS. AND, FOR ME, IT'S THE SAME THING WITH CREATING POETRY. I'M JUST MESSING AROUND. I'M PLAYING. SUPPOSE I WANTED TO SHOW "COLD." HOW WOULD I SHOW WHAT COLD IS OR HOT? HOW WOULD I BE ABLE TO DEPICT THAT? HOW DO I SHOW TEMPERATURE? HOW ABOUT SORROW OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT? I WANT TO BE ABLE TO DEPICT IT SOMEHOW, SO I TAKE AN IDEA AND HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO REPRESENT IT IN SIGN, ICONICALLY. FOR INSTANCE, A LEAF FALLING FROM A TREE. OK. THERE YOU GO. YOU GOT A LEAF FALLING FROM THE TREE. HOW WOULD I SHOW IT'S COLD? SHOW IT SHUDDERING IN THE COLD. THAT'S PLAYING, RIGHT? HOW ABOUT HOT? HOW WOULD I SHOW IT'S HOT? IT'S WILTING AS IT FALLS FROM THE TREE. SO JUST SEARCHING FOR THE RIGHT WAY TO SHOW THE IDEA. I STILL WORK THAT WAY TODAY. I'M THINKING--I HAVE SOMETHING IN MIND. WHAT DID I WANT TO SAY? OH. UM... BEFORE I LEFT FOR SWEDEN... I ACTUALLY MADE A VIDEO. THE GROUP CALLED SIGN MEDIA IN WASHINGTON, D.C. INVITED ME TO COME, AND THEY DISSEMINATED THIS VIDEO. I WAS EXCITED TO GO. IT WAS GREAT. AND WE MADE THIS VIDEO. IT WAS PART OF A SERIES. AND THEN I LEFT. IT'S KIND OF FUNNY. IT'S LIKE I JUST SORT OF LEFT ALL THAT BEHIND. I CREATED THIS THING, AND THEN I ABSCONDED. SO I LEFT THE U.S. AND THAT WAS NOT AN EASY MOVE FOR ME... BECAUSE ASL POETRY WAS HERE, AND THEN I WAS GOING TO A PLACE WHERE THERE WASN'T ANY POETRY. I GOT THERE, AND I HAD TO LEARN THE LANGUAGE BEFORE I COULD CREATE ANY POETRY AND PLAY WITH THE LANGUAGE. IF YOU'RE GONNA PLAY WITH SOMETHING, THAT MEANS YOU HAVE TO PUT IN THE TIME AND BE PATIENT. SO I HAD TO TAKE SOME TIME TO LEARN THE LANGUAGE, OF COURSE. AND THAT TAKES A LOT OF TIME AND EFFORT, WHEREAS HERE, YOU KNOW, WHEN I LEFT THE U.S., I ALREADY HAD THAT. AND IT WASN'T EASY. IT WAS AN ANGUISHING SITUATION FOR ME TO GO THERE. BUT IT ENDED UP TO BE SUCH A POSITIVE THING, AND SUCH GREAT THINGS HAPPENED ANYWAY WHEN I MOVED. SO I MOVED IN 1991. AND IN 1993--OOPS! I SIGNED IT THE SWEDISH WAY. IN 1993--THERE WAS A TV PRODUCTION COMPANY THAT ASKED ME TO PERFORM FOR THEM. IT WAS WITH CHILDREN, KIND OF LIKE A "SESAME STREET" THING HERE, BUT FOR THERE, IT WAS FOR DEAF CHILDREN. SO THEY WANTED ME TO PERFORM POETRY FOR CHILDREN. PERFECT. IT WAS A GREAT WAY TO PRACTICE, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I WAS JUST LEARNING THE LANGUAGE AND I WAS CREATING, BUT, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T SIGN THAT WELL YET IN SWEDISH SIGN LANGUAGE, BUT IT DIDN'T MATTER BECAUSE I WAS WORKING WITH KIDS, AND I WAS PERFORMING FOR KIDS. SO I COULD BE SORT OF AWKWARD, MAKE A LOT OF MISTAKES, AND BE GOOFY. AND THAT WAS FUNNY. SO IT WAS A PERFECT FIT, ACTUALLY. IT WAS POETRY FOR CHILDREN. I CREATED ALL DIFFERENT ONES FOR THEM. AND IT WAS A GREAT PROCESS TO BE INVOLVED WITH. OH, MAYBE THAT WAS THE CELLAR. MAYBE. JIM ORGANIZED THAT? OH, THAT MUST BE WHAT IT WAS. OK. OH, I REMEMBER NOW. YEAH, RIGHT. JIM WAS PART OF THAT. MM-HMM. RIGHT. "BIRDBRAIN!" I FORGOT ABOUT "BIRDBRAIN!" YEAH, HE ENCOURAGED A LOT OF PEOPLE TO TAKE PART IN THAT, IN THE BIRD'S BRAIN SOCIETY. MM-HMM. I FEEL... I JUST LOVE DOING IT. WHAT CAN I SAY? IT'S THAT SIMPLE. REALLY. I JUST LOVE IT. IT MAKES ME FEEL WONDERFUL. I LOVE PLAYING WITH LANGUAGE. MY WRITING IS SO BAD IN ENGLISH. IT'S MUCH INFERIOR. AND IT MAKES ME FEEL INFERIOR. WHEN I TRY TO DO IT, IT DEPLETES ME. IT HURTS ME TO TRY TO DO IT, BUT I'M REPLENISHED WITH SIGN. I FEEL SO MUCH BETTER. IT'S GREAT TO BE ABLE TO SIGN MY POETRY. AND I FEEL THAT I'M ABLE TO GROW FROM IT. IT'S REALLY SIMPLE. I JUST LOVE IT. I THINK IT'S REALLY COOL. I FEEL SPIRITUAL ABOUT IT. IT'S WONDERFUL. IT'S INSPIRATIONAL. THINGS ARE HARD. THINGS ARE PAINFUL. THINGS ARE DIFFICULT SOMETIMES. BUT WHEN I DO POETRY, IT FEELS LIKE JUST JUMPING IN, REFRESHING WATER. IT'S REPLENISHING. I ENJOY IT. AND THAT'S ALL. IT'S ART--PERFORMANCE ART, DANCE, THEATER-- ANY OF THOSE THINGS, THEY'RE JUST WONDERFUL. MAKES ME FEEL WONDERFUL. BRIDGE OF WAS, LIKE, WELL, IT WAS A GROUP. WE DID GROUP WORK. WE WERE TRYING TO DEVELOP, YOU KNOW, GROUP THINGS, GROUP PERFORMANCES. IT WAS VERY HARD. IT'S NOT EASY. SO WE WOULD GET TOGETHER, AND WE WERE TRYING TO SIGN THINGS TOGETHER. IT'S MUCH EASIER TO WORK SOLO, OF COURSE, OR MAYBE EVEN AS A DUO, JUST TWO PEOPLE. BUT WE WOULD DO TWO, OR WE WOULD DO 3 PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME AND BECOME THIS PERFORMANCE GROUP. SO WE WERE TRYING TO FOCUS ON THE LANGUAGE SOMEHOW THAT, AS A GROUP, IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT. EACH OF US CONTRIBUTED DIFFERENT TALENTS TO IT. SOMETIMES JIM WOULD STAND AND READ A POEM, AND SOMEONE WOULD INTERPRET IT FOR HIM, OR JIM WOULD HAVE SOMEBODY NEXT TO HIM, AND HE WOULD SIGN IT, OR KENNY WOULD SIGN SOMETHING, AND PETER WOULD ACTUALLY VOICE IT. SO WE'D SWITCH UP THE ROLES. IT WAS A VERY SHORT-LIVED GROUP. AND THEN I LEFT. I DO REMEMBER THIS ONE NIGHT. IT WAS SO FUNNY. WE WERE ALL SITTING AROUND AND HANGING OUT AND TALKING. AND THEN JIM COMES INTO THE ROOM AND SAYS, "HEY, GUYS, WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE IN BINGHAMTON." WE HAD ALL COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN. HA HA! IT WAS SO FUNNY. WE WERE SUPPOSED TO DO SOME POETRY DOWN AT BINGHAMTON. WE WEREN'T THERE. HA HA! THE POEM "MISSING CHILDREN" CAME ABOUT BECAUSE I WAS WATCHING TV, AND THERE WAS A STORY ABOUT IRELAND. I DON'T REMEMBER THE SIGN FOR IT IN AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE. I'M USING THE SWEDISH SIGN, BUT ANYWAY, IRELAND. AND THERE WAS THIS PROGRAM... AND IT WAS SHOWING, YOU KNOW, THE CATHOLIC AND THE PROTESTANTS' DIFFICULTIES, THE TIME OF TROUBLES. AND, ANYWAY, IN THIS SHOW, THEY WERE SHOWING A FAMILY THAT ACTUALLY DID AN EXCHANGE TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER BETTER. LATER ON, NOT LONG AFTER THAT, I WAS STUDYING... I WAS TAKING AN ELECTIVE COURSE. IT WAS A POLITICAL COURSE. AND IT WAS DEALING WITH THE HISTORY OF SOUTH AFRICA. AND IN SOUTH AFRICA AT THAT TIME, THE POLICE HAD COME, AND THEY WERE SHOOTING MARCHERS IN A FUNERAL PROCESSION AND SHOOTING THEM IN THE BACK. AND THEN RIGHT ON THE HEELS OF THAT, I LEARNED ABOUT HOW IN SOUTH AMERICA, QUITE OFTEN, CHILDREN ARE FORCED TO BE CHILD SOLDIERS. AT THE SAME TIME THIS IS GOING ON, THERE'S THESE MILK CARTONS WITH PICTURES OF MISSING CHILDREN ON THEM, SO I MADE THE LINKAGES BETWEEN ALL THOSE DIFFERENT STORIES, AND KENNY HELPED ME WITH THAT. AND I PUT THEM ALL TOGETHER IN THIS ONE PIECE OF WORK. YEAH, I'M STILL ACTUALLY USING THAT POEM. I FEEL LIKE, WHERE'S CHILDHOOD? IT'S GONE FOR SO MANY. I REALLY WANTED TO EMPHASIZE THAT, HOW THOSE CHILDREN SUFFER. SOUTH AFRICA, SOUTH AMERICA, IRELAND... AND IN OTHER PLACES IN THE WORLD, TOO, IT'S STILL HAPPENING. THERE ARE MANY MISSING CHILDREN TO THIS DAY, STILL. I FEEL LIKE IN THE EIGHTIES, A FLOWER WAS BLOSSOMING. I THOUGHT THAT SEEDS WOULD EMANATE FROM THESE BLOSSOMS AND SCATTER AND TAKE ROOT. IT DIDN'T REALLY HAPPEN, I GUESS. AND I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE NOW. I'M SO FAR BEHIND IN TERMS OF THE SCENE NOW, BUT I YANKED OUT SOME OF THOSE PLANTS, AND I TOOK THOSE SEEDS OF POETRY TO SWEDEN. I THINK IT'S "IMPORTANT" FOR ME, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IF THERE HADN'T BEEN THAT TIME, THEN THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY ME. WELL, I DON'T REALLY MEAN THAT LITERALLY. IT'S NOT LIKE I WOULDN'T EXIST. BUT IT'S JUST THE LANGUAGE OF POETRY THAT I HAVE SO STRONGLY WITHIN ME. I MEAN, I SEE SO CLEARLY WHAT ASL POETRY IS. AND IT CAME TO FRUITION AT THAT TIME, AND IT CONTINUES. I DID WRITE POETRY BEFORE THAT TIME, BUT I WROTE IT IN ENGLISH. BUT AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME, THAT ASL POETRY EXPLOSION IN THE EIGHTIES WAS WHEN I REALLY FEEL I GOT IT. THAT'S WHAT ASL POETRY IS, AND IT OCCURRED IN THE 1980s. OH, I HAVE TO READ IT. OH, I HAVE IT. HA HA! JUST IMAGINE MY VOICE! SAID, "DID I EVER GIVE KENNY ANY VOICING IDEAS?" I JUST THOUGHT THAT WAS FUNNY. I'M FASCINATED... BY ANY KIND OF PERFORMANCE ART. AND DEAF CULTURE HAS-- WAIT A MINUTE. WHAT DO I MEAN? LET ME START AGAIN. PERFORMANCE ART HADN'T BEEN MUCH IN DEAF CULTURE PREVIOUSLY. OUT IN THE HEARING WORLD, THERE'S A FAMOUS WOMAN NAMED LAURIE ANDERSON--VERY WELL-KNOWN PERFORMANCE ARTIST. SHE PLAYS AROUND WITH SOUNDS, NOISES, DIFFERENT SORTS OF TECHNIQUES. AND WHEN I WAS AT RIT, THERE WAS A HEARING PROFESSOR WHO WAS TALKING ABOUT CONTEMPORARY ART AND MENTIONED PERFORMANCE ART. AND THERE'S THIS ONE PERSON WHO PAINTED, WHO MADE PEANUT BUTTER SANDWICHES ALL ALONG THE STREET. THIS IS A HEARING PERSON, RIGHT? I FOUND THAT REALLY INTERESTING, THAT THEIR ART WAS MAKING PEANUT BUTTER SANDWICHES. AND THAT KIND OF GOT ME DRAWN IN IN A SENSE. THAT WAS A HEARING THING. AND, ANYWAY, I LEARNED THAT THROUGH GETTING EDUCATED ABOUT THAT, BUT I THOUGHT, "OK, HEARING PEOPLE DO THAT. GREAT." BUT I WANTED TO BE PART OF THAT, TOO. I LOVED WORKING WITH HEARING PEOPLE. IT WAS VERY CHALLENGING, LOTS OF NEW IDEAS, DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, WHICH REALLY HELPED ME SEE IN DIFFERENT WAYS AS WELL. SO, YES, YOU KNOW, DEAF PEOPLE WOULD SAY, "WHAT'S UP? THAT'S NOT DEAF!" AND THAT'S RIGHT, BECAUSE DEAF CULTURE DIDN'T NECESSARILY CONTAIN THOSE ASPECTS OF PERFORMANCE ART, LIKE SOMEBODY--MAKING PEANUT BUTTER SANDWICHES ON THE SIDEWALK, AND WHAT'S THAT ALL ABOUT? SO THAT WAS THE DIFFICULTY, WAS THIS CULTURAL CLASH THAT WOULD OCCUR FROM JUST A LACK OF EXPERIENCE WITH THAT PARTICULAR ART FORM. SO THROUGH DISCUSSIONS AND THROUGH DELIBERATIONS, WE WERE ABLE TO BRING THOSE TWO TOGETHER BY BRINGING PERFORMANCE ART INTO THE DEAF COMMUNITY. SOMETIMES PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE DEAF. THEY LOOKED AT ME, AND THEY THINK I'M WEIRD. IT ALWAYS WAS, PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT I WAS EUROPEAN BACK IN THE DAY. I WAS INTO ART, AND THEY THOUGHT I ALREADY LOOKED EUROPEAN, I BELONGED MORE THERE. I THINK IN SWEDEN, THERE IS MORE ART JUST IN GENERAL. AND THE QUALITY OF THE ART IS SUPERIOR, ESPECIALLY FOR DEAF PEOPLE IN EUROPE. IT'S JUST A EUROPEAN THING. YOU KNOW, U.S. MOVIES-- THEY'RE SHOOT 'EM UP, BANG 'EM UP, ACTION KIND OF FILMS, ADVENTURES, VERY OBVIOUS, NOT SO NUANCED. BUT IN EUROPEAN FILMS, YOU HAVE TO WORK A LITTLE HARDER. AND THAT'S MORE INTERESTING TO ME. AND I LOVE THEM. I THINK IN THAT PARTICULAR, YOU KNOW, QUADRANT, ART IS STRONGER IN EUROPE THAN IT IS HERE IN THE U.S. MY RESPONSIBILITY? NO. I BELIEVE THAT EDUCATION IN THE SCHOOLS IS THE KEY, REALLY. I THINK THAT'S CRUCIAL. NOW, IN MY TIME, I NEVER HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THESE SORTS OF THINGS. THERE WAS NO TV. THERE WAS NO RADIO. THERE WAS ALL THESE MOUTHS MOVING AROUND ME. IF I WENT TO A RESTAURANT, EVERYBODY'S TALKING AROUND ME ABOUT DIFFERENT THINGS, BUT I MISSED ALL THAT INFORMATION. I MISSED A LOT. THERE'S A LOT OF INFORMATION THAT GOES ON ALL AROUND US-- CULTURAL INFORMATION, ESPECIALLY-- OR EVEN SHAKESPEARE, WORDS USED IN SHAKESPEARE, THINGS THAT ARE QUOTES FROM SHAKESPEARE, THINGS THAT I JUST MISSED. SO A LOT OF THINGS IN THE ART WORLD THAT I MISSED, TOO. AND I NEED TO FIND THOSE THINGS THAT I THINK ARE LACKING AND PUT THEM INTO THE SCHOOLS. IT'S NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY, NO, BUT SOMETHING I TRY TO DO. AND I FEEL THAT--I DON'T KNOW-- IT'S IMPORTANT TO SHOW WHAT DEAF PEOPLE ARE MISSING, TRY TO MAKE UP FOR THAT. FIRST OF ALL I CREATE MY POETRY FOR MYSELF. I'M VERY SELFISH THAT WAY. IT'S ALL ABOUT ME PLAYING, ME HAVING A GOOD TIME, AND THEN I WANT TO PRESENT IT TO OTHERS. FINDING OUT IF THEY LIKE IT OR DON'T LIKE IT IS PRETTY IMPORTANT. IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT, I'M DISAPPOINTED. IF THEY DO LIKE IT, I'M THRILLED. SO THERE'S ALWAYS A MESSAGE WITHIN IT--POLITICAL SOMETIMES. I HAVE A NEW POEM. IT'S ABOUT THE FACT THAT A HUNDRED MEN RAPED A MENTALLY RETARDED GIRL. SHE WAS 14 YEARS OLD. A HUNDRED MEN JUST USING HER. SHE WAS VERY ACCEPTING OF IT. SHE DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER. BUT THAT'S JUST SICK! I'M SORRY. IT'S JUST SICK. AND THAT'S SOMETHING I WANTED TO SHOW. WHAT'S THE PURPOSE? I WANT TO SAY TO PEOPLE, "WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?" IT'S NOT NECESSARILY FOR DEAF AUDIENCES. IT'S FOR MALE AUDIENCES, RIGHT, IN GENERAL. OR, YOU KNOW, A MIX OF INFORMATION. IT'S NOT ALWAYS JUST FOR DEAF PEOPLE. I WOULDN'T SAY MY WORK'S FOR DEAF AUDIENCES. IT'S FOR A GLOBAL AUDIENCE. IT CAN INCLUDE DEAF PEOPLE, OF COURSE. BUT MY POEMS AREN'T NECESSARILY RELATED TO DEAFNESS OR BEING DEAF AT ALL. THE FIRST THING I WANT TO DO IS SHARE THE EXPERIENCE. YES, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT, OF COURSE. MY NAME IS DEBBIE Z. RENNIE. WELL, IT STARTED WITH SUNSHINE TOO! I WAS GIVEN A TEXT. IT WAS BY DOROTHY MILES. AND I TRANSLATED IT. IT WAS HARD. I WANTED TO RESPECT THE POEM ITSELF AND THE FORM. SO IF I TRIED TO REPLICATE THAT FORM, IT WAS REALLY DIFFICULT. AND I FOUND IT IMPOSSIBLE. I MEAN, MAYBE I COULD, BUT IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT. I WANTED TO PRESERVE THE ARTISTRY. WHAT I CREATED ALSO HAD TO BE ARTISTIC AND STILL MAINTAIN HER MEANING, BY TAKING OFF THAT FORM AND CREATING SOMETHING ELSE. SO I DON'T KNOW. I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE IT WAS NECESSARILY A SUCCESSFUL TRANSLATION. I MEAN, NOBODY, YOU KNOW, TOLD ME I WAS WRONG OR CRITICIZED ME, BUT I DID TRANSLATE SOME POEMS FROM ASL TO ENGLISH. I DON'T KNOW WHAT I DID, IF WHAT I DID WAS ART OR NOT. I WAS THINKING ABOUT-- HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO KEEP YOUR MIND OPEN TO THE PROCESS, TO THE EXPERIENCE. YOU MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND SOMETHING, BUT IT'S ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING THERE AND BEING OPEN TO THE POSSIBILITIES, EXPERIMENTATION, AND BEING CONSTANTLY IN A QUEST, SEARCHING. THE LANGUAGE ITSELF-- SIGN LANGUAGE ITSELF-- IS SO INCREDIBLY RICH. AND I WANT TO HELP FURTHER THAT. I THINK THAT THE FIRST NATIONAL DEAF POETRY CONFERENCE HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON ME. I FELT LIKE EVERYTHING JUST EXPLODED AT THAT MOMENT BECAUSE PATRICK WAS THERE, VALLI WAS THERE, ELLA WAS THERE, PETER, THE FIVE OF US, JIM COHN, JIM, AS THIS HEARING PERSON, WHO WAS THIS HEARING POET WHO GOT THIS BALL ROLLING, AND IT WAS A REALLY BIG MOMENT. IT WAS A BIG IMPACT. IT WAS JUST THIS ONE WEEKEND OF SHARING WITH EACH OTHER, DIFFERENT IDEAS FLOWING ABOUT. IT REALLY HIT ME HARD, ASL POETRY, THIS IS WHAT IT IS! I THINK THAT EVERYTHING PREVIOUS TO THAT WAS VERY INTERESTING AND EXPERIMENTAL, PEOPLE JUST SORT OF SEEING WHAT WOULD HAPPEN AS THEY PLAYED. AND ALL THIS PLAYING WITH LANGUAGE-- I'D BEEN WRITING IT, I'D BEEN PLAYING WITH SIGNING-- BUT AT THAT MOMENT, IT WAS A TURNING POINT. EVERYTHING CHANGED. IT JUST EXPLODED, REALLY. IT COALESCED. AND THAT REALLY HIT ME, THE DIFFERENCES IN ALL THE DIFFERENT POETIC STYLES THAT I SAW. THEN I WENT TO DEAF WAY. AND IT WAS EVEN MORE INTENSE, WHAT HAPPENED THERE. IT WAS JUST INCREDIBLY COOL.

"This project is supported by a Digitizing Hidden Collections grant from the Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR). The grant program is made possible by funding from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation."

Title supplied by cataloger

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